New Stand: Ongoing work (updated)

[DalryJambo]

On 13/11/2018 at 08:31, Francis Albert said:

I have not seen any explanation of what this higher finish means. Nor an explanation of what has been added. Balanced by what has been deleted. Presumably the space occupied by the fans bar was going to be occupied by something. And the inclusion of the premium hospitality space for the Matchday Exprrience has been removed from scope by leaving that in the Gorgie Suite. The offices that were planned to be in the new stand are now remaining in the Wheatfield undercroft so again are out of the new stand scope. Ann's statement is the familiar "its because we want to make it the best we can for the fans" which was the explanation for the second delay in opening the stand ("I looked at the plans again and decided the toilets and kiosks weren't adequate"). As for "the major infrastructure investment is behind us" we still have a finding gap of over 6m as far as we can tell with no idea of how it is to be met. It is equivalent to over a further full four years of FoH donations.

The AGM will hopefully reveal some facts and proper scope amd cost variation analysis to supplement Ann's PR spin.

 

Have you ever done up you house? Even at that basic level the options are vast. Basic stuff like plugs and light switches range from a few pounds to tens of pounds. Wallpaper is the same, as are tiles, flooring, etc etc etc. So the price difference for even a small room can be thousands different depending on your finnish/spec.  Now consider a similar exercise on a commercial scale, in massive rooms such as hospitality suites. Simple upgrades can effect the final costs by tens of thousands of pounds due to the size of things.  Funny enough ‘new technology’ also comes at a price so things like lightning systems that turn themselves on/off based on movement are becoming more common within business environments and they do help reduce electricity use, but they are way more expensive than installing a single plastic wall switch.

[macwad]

10 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

 

 

That's a line I've only ever seen used on Hibs.net.

 

I'm sure it's purely coincidental though. 

 

 

 

That’s because I had always previously argued for a double tier stand and never got an answer except some vague unfounded nonsense about blast zones. My argument being that we are a bigger support and this was the only chance we would have to lift the stadium capacity up significantky above 20k, given the constrictions of the site. If you can’t go out, you go up.

 

in the end, when we look at attendances we’re probably about right but you can’t knock me for believing there could be another 5000 Jambos out there that would attend more than semi- finals and Finals but this season has already proven my belief was sadly unfounded. 

 

 

[johnking123]

18 million is still very good price for what we are getting. Even 20 million will be good. If we were to build a plain 9000 wheatfield stand. It would not even cost half that.

Biggest problem we would face is the distillery and ethanol tanks. Buying land and possibly knocking down a few of the storage buildings. That would add to the cost.

[Dalstonjambo]

1 hour ago, macwad said:

Have either of you and I mean farmer Tweedy also, ever carried out a property development of this size.

 

i have. In fact i’ve Just signed off the commencement of a double tower development of 26 and 30 stories in Piccadilly Manchester. It’s one of a number of developments considerably larger than Tynecastle’a single tier stand we have done in the past and have in the pipeline now.

 

I might just have an idea about what i’m talking about and that among my other business interests might be why I have so little time to wank my tongue off on here unlike you two vacuous numpties.

So if you know all that then you will also know your post about Swansea's ground and the relative costs was not accurate, as you didn't mention the fact that no land costs were included in the price as the council already owned the land (I'm guessing you know very well how much land costs in/on the outskirts of a city) which would have added multi millions to the project? 

You would also know it was originally built as a multi sports venue for all Swansea sport teams and was part of a regeneration of the area, which was a wider 50-60m project? 

So you conveniently left all this information out? I hope so, as I would expect someone who does what you claim to do to not have checked this.

[Mikey1874]

Good words by Gary MacKay

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/gary-mackay-tynecastle-rebuild-costs-rise-but-so-does-hearts-fans-pride-1-4830009

[Thomaso]

On ‎13‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 17:09, Francis Albert said:

And you are a very modest guy if you forget that criticism was mild and vastly outweghed by gushing praise for the iconic stunning etc facade

 

If you want an adult debate I suggest you cu out the sarcasm FA.

[Thomaso]

On ‎13‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 22:39, Francis Albert said:

Yeah I am going to win a popular vote! In any event given current Governance proposals (yes yawn yawn) FoH will not have much say in the sort of detail we are discussing  - its role will contiinue as it is now - provide funds to be used at the discretion of the club board on which FoH as the majority owner will have a minority representation.

And as for the astonishment that there should be any questioning or dissent - does anyone really think that Ann's explanation of the 50% overspend is adequate? If they do their minds are truly closed and they will swallow anything.

 

And would anybody know who you are??  I only know you as a faceless poster on JKB.

[Thomaso]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 08:30, macwad said:

I love Tynecastle and sort of what they’ve done but this idea of highest standard finishes is dubious. I regularly take hospitality and could best describe the interior as a builder’s white and magnolia finish. 

 

It’s better than the bare concrete block and floor finishes in a lot of stadium concourses but the lounges are clearly finished and furnished to a limited budget.

 

The comparable areas at Ibrox might be old but the wood panelling of the hospitality areas and the executive bar and lounge areas are positively sumptuous compared to the “get it on the market quick” finish that pervades at Tynecastle.

 

Another point - the Liberty stadium built in pre- recession 2005 with a capacity similar to Tynecastle cost £27m.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Stadium

 

Perhaps we should have put it out to tender to that contractor rather than Anne’s brother?

 

The reference was to the highest quality overall finish of the building, rather than finishes which as you suggest is wall coverings and paintwork.

 

If you read previous posts on here it was confirmed that the building will not be fully complete until season 2019/20. The Club have acknowledged that the finishes in various areas need improved and dressed up - that will all be part on the final completion for the project.

[Thomaso]

19 hours ago, johnking123 said:

Just have to make wheatfield stand 28 degree instead of the 34.  Would get extra 3,500 seats. The main stand is 32 degrees now. 

 

Unless you buy more land at the back of the stand, you would end up with less seats at 28 degrees and a lower height - basic geometry.

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Unless you buy more land at the back of the stand, you would end up with less seats at 28 degrees and a lower height - basic geometry.

Indeed. Plus rebuilding to a new rake is effectively building a new stand. 

[Mikey1874]

 

[sairyinthat]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:29, Buffalo Bill said:

 

We don’t need to increase the stadium size just now but if we ever needed to in the future, I don’t think it would be an impossibility to rebuild the Wheatfield Stand. Difficult, but not impossible. 

We already have the capacity to meet an increase in support and it's some 3000 + seats we set aside for visiting fans of other teams.If we require more room then just take that space.

[johnking123]

29 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Unless you buy more land at the back of the stand, you would end up with less seats at 28 degrees and a lower height - basic geometry.

Have mentioned buying land in other posts!

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

 

If you want an adult debate I suggest you cu out the sarcasm FA.

If my post was "sarcastic" so was the one I replied to. You said I had a short memory because you claimed (wrongly) that I had forgotten criticism of the new stand (how could I when I made much of what little there was?) while I claimed your were being modest in forgetting that criticism has been vastly outnumbered by praise, not least for the glass frontage for which I believe you had some responsibility. But now we are perhaps descending into childishness by raking over a days old exchange which I thought was civil and in fact quite light hearted.

 

 

[Ray Gin]

12 minutes ago, sairyinthat said:

We already have the capacity to meet an increase in support and it's some 3000 + seats we set aside for visiting fans of other teams.If we require more room then just take that space.

 

That doesn't make us any more money though.

[Francis Albert]

54 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

And would anybody know who you are??  I only know you as a faceless poster on JKB.

But my "sarcastic" style is instantly recognisable.

[sairyinthat]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

That doesn't make us any more money though.

Nor does it cost us any.

[Francis Albert]

38 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Indeed. Plus rebuilding to a new rake is effectively building a new stand. 

Not quite. The steel structure supporting the roof is quite a large cost, and saving if it could be retained. Land would certainly be an issue  but not perhaps in the long term totally insurmountable for the Wheatfield or Roseburn.

If the above calculation on rake to seat numbers is correct, it suggests reducing the rake of the new stand to 28 degrees could have allowed for additional 2300 capacity, and plenty of land at the back of the new stand does seem to  be available. I don't think it would have meant a significant loss of atmosphere or viewing quality. But of courses that is water under the bridge.Given the growth in our core crowd for routine games in the last 13 years or so, which has been accelerating recently, I don't think saying we have enough capacity for 25 years is ambitious enough. 

 

[Mysterion]

27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't think saying we have enough capacity for 25 years is ambitious enough. 

 

 

This is a good point. 

In a fantasy scenario I would rather see Hearts work long term to secure the school and the distillery land then work to expand the Roseburn end first. 

[Fxxx the SPFL]

I think we all need to keep our feet grounded here, at the moment the team are performing well and if it hadn't been for a truly horrendous spell of injuries i believe we would still be top of the league and possibly in a cup final. Our attendances at present are enough for the current capacity should we in the next few years reach/win finals andconsistantly high league finishing (1st cough cough nd or 3rd), European football then we may see the demand outstrip the stadium. However the one main stumbling block and possibly the mystery benefactors realise this is that we will only ever be able to raise a finite amount of cash to put towards the plaing staff. I don't think we will ever be in a position to pay lets say £500k-£1m for any player, or wages possibly in excess of £5k-£6k per week. I may be wrong but that is how i see the club moving forward in the short term, long term who knows what is possible a lot will hinge on FoH subscriptions which at present are not used directly towards the playing budget that may change after AB is paid back and all the redevelopment work has completed.

[johnking123]

14 minutes ago, Ray has bus pass hooray said:

I think we all need to keep our feet grounded here, at the moment the team are performing well and if it hadn't been for a truly horrendous spell of injuries i believe we would still be top of the league and possibly in a cup final. Our attendances at present are enough for the current capacity should we in the next few years reach/win finals andconsistantly high league finishing (1st cough cough nd or 3rd), European football then we may see the demand outstrip the stadium. However the one main stumbling block and possibly the mystery benefactors realise this is that we will only ever be able to raise a finite amount of cash to put towards the plaing staff. I don't think we will ever be in a position to pay lets say £500k-£1m for any player, or wages possibly in excess of £5k-£6k per week. I may be wrong but that is how i see the club moving forward in the short term, long term who knows what is possible a lot will hinge on FoH subscriptions which at present are not used directly towards the playing budget that may change after AB is paid back and all the redevelopment work has completed.

We are paying £5-6 grand a week now to players. Not many granted. Season 20/21 should see us with 14 to 15 million turnover. Maybe more depending on Tv deal.

[Thomaso]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

But my "sarcastic" style is instantly recognisable.

 

Thought that was just your internet style??

[TyphoonJambo]

1 hour ago, Ray has bus pass hooray said:

I think we all need to keep our feet grounded here, at the moment the team are performing well and if it hadn't been for a truly horrendous spell of injuries i believe we would still be top of the league and possibly in a cup final. Our attendances at present are enough for the current capacity should we in the next few years reach/win finals andconsistantly high league finishing (1st cough cough nd or 3rd), European football then we may see the demand outstrip the stadium. However the one main stumbling block and possibly the mystery benefactors realise this is that we will only ever be able to raise a finite amount of cash to put towards the plaing staff. I don't think we will ever be in a position to pay lets say £500k-£1m for any player, or wages possibly in excess of £5k-£6k per week. I may be wrong but that is how i see the club moving forward in the short term, long term who knows what is possible a lot will hinge on FoH subscriptions which at present are not used directly towards the playing budget that may change after AB is paid back and all the redevelopment work has completed.

As I understand it our mystery benefactor (s) have in the past, offered to pay higher wages or transfer fees for individual players but Anne and Craig are keen to maintain dressing room harmony. Could be bollox though!

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

 

Thought that was just your internet style??

No. In fact I try to tone it down a bit on here!

[FarmerTweedy]

On 15/11/2018 at 07:58, Dalstonjambo said:

So if you know all that then you will also know your post about Swansea's ground and the relative costs was not accurate, as you didn't mention the fact that no land costs were included in the price as the council already owned the land (I'm guessing you know very well how much land costs in/on the outskirts of a city) which would have added multi millions to the project? 

You would also know it was originally built as a multi sports venue for all Swansea sport teams and was part of a regeneration of the area, which was a wider 50-60m project? 

So you conveniently left all this information out? I hope so, as I would expect someone who does what you claim to do to not have checked this.

The only tower development he's ever been involved in was when playing with his lego!

[FarmerTweedy]

21 hours ago, Ray has bus pass hooray said:

I think we all need to keep our feet grounded here, at the moment the team are performing well and if it hadn't been for a truly horrendous spell of injuries i believe we would still be top of the league and possibly in a cup final. Our attendances at present are enough for the current capacity should we in the next few years reach/win finals andconsistantly high league finishing (1st cough cough nd or 3rd), European football then we may see the demand outstrip the stadium. However the one main stumbling block and possibly the mystery benefactors realise this is that we will only ever be able to raise a finite amount of cash to put towards the plaing staff. I don't think we will ever be in a position to pay lets say £500k-£1m for any player, or wages possibly in excess of £5k-£6k per week. I may be wrong but that is how i see the club moving forward in the short term, long term who knows what is possible a lot will hinge on FoH subscriptions which at present are not used directly towards the playing budget that may change after AB is paid back and all the redevelopment work has completed.

I get what you're saying here, but I don't think there's much wrong with us speculating about what options could be available in the future for further potential expansion if things were to go well in the next few years and demand did happen to rise to a level where we could actually do with additional capacity. Obviously, we're a long way from that requirement just now though!

[Thomaso]

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 15:57, Francis Albert said:

No. In fact I try to tone it down a bit on here!

 

[Thomaso]

17 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Re the slightly wobbly handrails at the ends of the rows....

 

I notice that in the new stand they are bolted down from above at the end of the row, using 2 brackets, but in the Wheatfield they are bolted to the vertical edge of the terrace using 4 brackets.

 

They do seem to be more secure in the Wheatfield. Is the difference to do with the different flooring material used for the terracing in the new stand? Sorry if I've got this wrong, it's just an observation in passing, I haven't actually inspected the rails.

 

You are correct.  They need an additional bracket

[Thomaso]

4 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Thanks for confirming.

 

Do you know whether this is in hand? I'm sure they're probably safe enough, but without wanting to over-react, people might get hurt if one gives way.

 

The Club do need to sort this - quite easy to fit stiffening bracket to the vertical panel of the seating step.

[argyjambo]

I recently e-mailed the club regarding the very shoogly handrails on the staircase between sections C & D in the Wheatfield. As yet, I've had no response but its only been a week. They have however, been very loose all season and I wonder what safety checks are done as a matter of routine. My knees are arthritic and I rely on these handrails to get up & down the stairs.

[jamboinglasgow]

So they key question is, when are the screens going to come in.

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, argyjambo said:

I recently e-mailed the club regarding the very shoogly handrails on the staircase between sections C & D in the Wheatfield. As yet, I've had no response but its only been a week. They have however, been very loose all season and I wonder what safety checks are done as a matter of routine. My knees are arthritic and I rely on these handrails to get up & down the stairs.

I wouldn’t hold your breath, I emailed and left a phone message last season about there being no hand rails for the first three games in the lower sections, didn’t get back to me. 

[ShedBoy]

Upon a hill

 

There stood a coo

 

It must’ve moved

 

Its no there noo

[Sarah O]

2 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

So they key question is, when are the screens going to come in.

Hopefully the trees are priority

[Beast Boy]

I don’t think I’ll ever truly love Tynecastle the way I should, without maroon trees and massive big Jambotron screens.

[DalryJambo]

I do think the long term evolution of the stadium is the expansion of the Wheatfield and Roseburn stands. 

 

If/when the land becomes available I could see us knocking them both down and the replacement wheatfield could become the largest capacity stand once more. Given the space it could also allow us to lengthen and widen the pitch slightly. 

[FarmerTweedy]

2 hours ago, DalryJambo said:

I do think the long term evolution of the stadium is the expansion of the Wheatfield and Roseburn stands. 

 

If/when the land becomes available I could see us knocking them both down and the replacement wheatfield could become the largest capacity stand once more. Given the space it could also allow us to lengthen and widen the pitch slightly.

Increasing the pitch dimensions can only be done if some of the corner towers are shifted. Three of them support the Gorgie and Main stand roofs. The pitch could be enlarged with just the tower in the Wheatfield/Roseburn corner gone, but it would compromise sightlines from a significant number of seats in the Gorgie and Main stands. I can't see it ever happening.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

10 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Increasing the pitch dimensions can only be done if some of the corner towers are shifted. Three of them support the Gorgie and Main stand roofs. The pitch could be enlarged with just the tower in the Wheatfield/Roseburn corner gone, but it would compromise sightlines from a significant number of seats in the Gorgie and Main stands. I can't see it ever happening.

 

 

I am sure some structural engineering expert will come along and correct me if I am wrong, but I think the design of the corner tower pylons was flawed at their inception.

 

They are triangular, with one of the three legs leading inwards towards the pitch.  If they had gone the other way - with one leg away from the pitch - they could still have been constructed  to have the same roof-supporting value: but it  would have created more flexibility - including the much dreamed of "filling in the corners".

 

[Unknown user]

5 hours ago, ShedBoy said:

Upon a hill

 

There stood a coo

 

It must’ve moved

 

Its no there noo

 

Here stood a wa'

But noo, it's awa'

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

 

 

I am sure some structural engineering expert will come along and correct me if I am wrong, but I think the design of the corner tower pylons was flawed at their inception.

 

They are triangular, with one of the three legs leading inwards towards the pitch.  If they had gone the other way - with one leg away from the pitch - they could still have been constructed  to have the same roof-supporting value: but it  would have created more flexibility - including the much dreamed of "filling in the corners".

 

The shape is dictated by what the roof trusses need, they'd be the wrong shape for the job if they were the way you suggest

[DalryJambo]

34 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Increasing the pitch dimensions can only be done if some of the corner towers are shifted. Three of them support the Gorgie and Main stand roofs. The pitch could be enlarged with just the tower in the Wheatfield/Roseburn corner gone, but it would compromise sightlines from a significant number of seats in the Gorgie and Main stands. I can't see it ever happening.

 

If there is space freed up behind the stands then any new design could support (pun intended) a cantilever structure with both the current Wheatfield struts and the Roseburn/main strut moving behind the stadium. 

 

All a a pipe dream really, but if the land becomes available we probably need a 20-30 meter footprint behind the stands to make a huge difference.

[SUTOL]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The shape is dictated by what the roof trusses need, they'd be the wrong shape for the job if they were the way you suggest

 

And there would be two legs beside the pitch, not one. 

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

41 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The shape is dictated by what the roof trusses need, they'd be the wrong shape for the job if they were the way you suggest

 

Okay, and that is why I said at the inception.  Why could the trusses not have been designed to what the pylons provided?

 

 

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

27 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

And there would be two legs beside the pitch, not one. 

 

The 'two legs' could have been left in the positions they now are - with the trusses extended to suit.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

 

Okay, and that is why I said at the inception.  Why could the trusses not have been designed to what the pylons provided?

 

 

I can think of a few possible reasons, mostly to do with the cost of not engineering the biggest and most important parts in the simplest way. But really, no one except Cydesdale knows exactly why specific design decisions were made, so it seems a bit tight to call the design flawed.

[Kiwidoug]

6 hours ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

I don’t think I’ll ever truly love Tynecastle the way I should, without maroon trees and massive big Jambotron screens.

Quite right.  On the subject of the screens, will they show instant replays?  For example, when Harry takes the piss out of the entire Hibs defence and fires off a rocket which deflects off the goalkeeper's face, breaking 4 of his teeth before crashing into the net, will that be replayed on the screens immediately?

 

Importantly, will the screens be visible from the Roseburn?

[rudi must stay]

5 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Quite right.  On the subject of the screens, will they show instant replays?  For example, when Harry takes the piss out of the entire Hibs defence and fires off a rocket which deflects off the goalkeeper's face, breaking 4 of his teeth before crashing into the net, will that be replayed on the screens immediately?

 

Importantly, will the screens be visible from the Roseburn?

 

Screens would be at each side of the new Main Stand IIRC , so yes they would

[Kiwidoug]

30 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

 

Screens would be at each side of the new Main Stand IIRC , so yes they would

Thanks.  Tremendous.

 

Hope the SC win gives us enough dough to have them erected in the summer.

 

Big club, big screens?

[Mdoug79]

Can the floodlight towers not be removed and the floodlights mounted on the stand roof structure? 

Have I missed the answer to this somewhere? 

[Jambo, Goodbye]

20 minutes ago, Mdoug79 said:

Can the floodlight towers not be removed and the floodlights mounted on the stand roof structure? 

Have I missed the answer to this somewhere? 

The question you need to ask yourself is, what will be holding up said roofs?