Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Lord Montpelier]

31 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

They did. They voted for Brexit in their droves based on lies. 

You'll trust the experts like the ones that told you to vote no to stay in the EU, that the banks would leave, that the supermarkets would leave, that we'd be worse off. 

 

Yet here we are. Out of Europe. 9% worse off than last year and looking at a £2000 Brexit shaped hole in our pockets. 

 

That's not ifs, buts and maybes. That's what being hitched to Johnsons wagon gets you. 

 

How is that better together?

How much of your job is reliant on the UK economy ? Any of it ?

[i wish jj was my dad]

8 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Would you be happy to take on the Euro as currency? Not a loaded question, genuinely interested. My gut feeling without giving it much though is that I wouldn’t

I don't see why not but I'm sure there are reasons I haven't thought of that might give pause for thought.  What are the drawbacks? 

Edited July 3, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[Mysterion]

55 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Her achillies heel will be her dismissive arrogance. It will catch up with her. 

This was the day after her press conf to announce Indie Ref2 where she made clear the steps involved and that an “unofficial referendum wasn’t on the cards.”
 

This was a really poor standard of questioning by the interviewer who had done no work and was supplied poor feed in questions. 

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Her achillies heel will be her dismissive arrogance. It will catch up with her. 

 

Yes voter here: Don't much care for Sturgeon, Its simply that as leader of the SNP she is leader of the largest pro-yes party. 

 

RE her answer, I actually agree with the tone. She's repeatedly dismissed suggestions of a wildcat referendum and still been attacked for it despite outright rejecting this as a viable alternative, her defcon 4/ if all avenues are blocked is to use the next general election to stand purely on the Independence issue. So the reporter is being lazy and disrespectful in his questioning. She's done absolutely everything to stress that there will under no circumstances be a wildcat referendum. It is not the endorsed position of the SNP and categorically will not be happening. So to try and reintroduce that by him when she has went to the lengths she has to refute any possibility of a wildcat referendum is deserving of such a response IMO. It was transparent and lazy attempt to misinform. He needs to do better. 

 

You can argue that as First Minister she should be rising above that, but I think she needed to come out all guns blazing on that because its important that the myth is put to be immediately and not allowed to be repeated by the media.

 

Also, he would have been perfectly within his rights to question her on the legitimacy of using a general election, and I think that would have been an interesting exchange. 

 

Edit: As @Mysterion quite rightly points out, this was literally the day after her statement too. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by OTT

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

15 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I don't see why not but I'm sure there are reasons I haven't thought of that might give pause for thought.  What are the drawbacks? 

I guess the possibility that switching raises prices generally and also, it’s a continent wide currency so harder to control for your own ends. I need to give it more thought though. Only reason I ask is that the EU won’t let Scotland join without it joining the euro 

[frankblack]

27 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

It isn't a solution. It's a mitigation. Brexit was nothing more than a self inflicted wound cutting us off from our key trading partners. An independent Scotland might be able to claw some of that back and by either getting back in or negotiating a new agreement. We aren't UK so the negotiations would be a dawn sight more cordial than they were with WM.

Hopefully the rUK wouldn't be stupid or callous enough to shut the door on the Scottish border either. If they did that is on them and we are absolutely better off out-of it. 

As for your £2k per person that's very speculative. Others far more clued up than me are even more sceptical than I am. 

 

How exactly is it a mitigation? Its making things clearly worse when your major trading partner is the rest of the UK.

 

The articles I linked to earlier today indicated that Scottish firms would be worse off for having to pay more to trade with the rest of the UK.  In simple terms it means their products will be more expensive than say a competitor over the border in Berwick.

 

As for the Scottish Border, you do realise that if an Indy Scotland wanted to join the EU, assuming they miraculously made the entry requirements, then the EU would insist on a hard border with the UK?

 

As for the 2k per year worse off figure that might well be an underestimate, but that is because the SNP won't publish costed plans.  Remember they were supposed to be ready to be independent in 2014 yet still don't know their arse from their elbow! Its laughable.

[The Mighty Thor]

25 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

How much of your job is reliant on the UK economy ? Any of it ?

All of it. I work for an English based company. But on 20th October 2023 I'll still work for an English based company servicing Scottsh customers. 

 

What do you think is going to happen? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I guess the possibility that switching raises prices generally and also, it’s a continent wide currency so harder to control for your own ends. I need to give it more thought though. Only reason I ask is that the EU won’t let Scotland join without it joining the euro 

I get that we are tied to a central bank but Ireland seem to do OK out of it so I'm relatively relaxed about that. If there are bear traps though I'd want to hear them. 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I guess the possibility that switching raises prices generally and also, it’s a continent wide currency so harder to control for your own ends. I need to give it more thought though. Only reason I ask is that the EU won’t let Scotland join without it joining the euro 

Also, how difficult would people find swapping the Euro for the Pound when coming over the border?

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I guess the possibility that switching raises prices generally and also, it’s a continent wide currency so harder to control for your own ends. I need to give it more thought though. Only reason I ask is that the EU won’t let Scotland join without it joining the euro 

 

Do you want to have to go to a currency exchange to get pound sterling for a weekend break across the border in England?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Also, how difficult would people find swapping the Euro for the Pound when coming over the border?

 

Snap!

[OTT]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Also, how difficult would people find swapping the Euro for the Pound when coming over the border?

 

No more difficult than changing your money when going to Ireland or Spain. 

 

Also, you ever tried using a Scottish £20 note down south?  The 'Thats legal tender' skit didn't come from nowhere. 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

The articles I linked to earlier today indicated that Scottish firms would be worse off for having to pay more to trade with the rest of the UK.  In simple terms it means their products will be more expensive than say a competitor over the border in Berwick.

That's guess work. The report you posted pointed out on page 11 that they've no idea what border costs would be. For the avoidance of doubt, they've no idea what border costs would be. 

 

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

As for the 2k per year worse off figure that might well be an underestimate, but that is because the SNP won't publish costed plans.

So the £2000 figure is also just made up?

 

What's not made up is the 9% increase in cost of living this year outside of the cost of Brexit which is running at £1m per hour. Every hour. Every day. 

[micole]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you want to have to go to a currency exchange to get pound sterling for a weekend break across the border in England?

Ireland and Nth Ireland.....done it many times when I worked for apn Irish company. Never found it a problem TBH. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

How exactly is it a mitigation? Its making things clearly worse when your major trading partner is the rest of the UK.

 

The articles I linked to earlier today indicated that Scottish firms would be worse off for having to pay more to trade with the rest of the UK.  In simple terms it means their products will be more expensive than say a competitor over the border in Berwick.

 

As for the Scottish Border, you do realise that if an Indy Scotland wanted to join the EU, assuming they miraculously made the entry requirements, then the EU would insist on a hard border with the UK?

 

As for the 2k per year worse off figure that might well be an underestimate, but that is because the SNP won't publish costed plans.  Remember they were supposed to be ready to be independent in 2014 yet still don't know their arse from their elbow! Its laughable.

The rUK created the hard border with the EU not the other way around. This could have been a much softer brexit but BloJo and his fascists wanted to show Jonny Foreigner who was boss. It was entirely self inflicted but if a more moderate party was in No.10 they  would do well to come back to the table. Our European partners don't particularly like the consequences of this lunacy either. 

There is almost no point arguing about what the SG published for 2014 with you because you have made your mind up. They will have to produce a lot more info by next October if they want to convince me but I am open to persuasion.

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Also, how difficult would people find swapping the Euro for the Pound when coming over the border?

Look at NI/Republic as an example. Hopefully, we would be grown up enough to follow their lead. 

[Jeffros Furios]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Snap!

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

No more difficult than changing your money when going to Ireland or Spain. 

 

Also, you ever tried using a Scottish £20 note down south?  The 'Thats legal tender' skit didn't come from nowhere. 

How many more times a day do people from Scotland and England cross the border as go to Spain or Ireland?

And yes, I spend Scottish noted down here regularly with no trouble, in fact used a few 10's and 20's on Friday in Leeds, not an eye batted.

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Also, how difficult would people find swapping the Euro for the Pound when coming over the border?

 

If we take the Euro as currency it'll be because we're in the EU, and that's not happening on day 1 or without further conversation so it's a pretty pointless scenario.

 

But take a step back and look what you're putting forward as downsides - things that might never happen, and if they ever do, they definitely won't be happening on independence.

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

The rUK created the hard border with the EU not the other way around. This could have been a much softer brexit but BloJo and his fascists wanted to show Jonny Foreigner who was boss. It was entirely self inflicted but if a more moderate party was in No.10 they  would do well to come back to the table. Our European partners don't particularly like the consequences of this lunacy either. 

There is almost no point arguing about what the SG published for 2014 with you because you have made your mind up. They will have to produce a lot more info by next October if they want to convince me but I am open to persuasion.

 

I think that is debatable but off topic.  The fact remains that the EU have set a precedent and we know Scotland would be affected by an enforced hard border, which will have negative consequences for Scotland regardless of whether you agree or not.

 

You pretend to have been sitting on the fence but have been one of the biggest card-carrying indy cheerleaders on this thread. 

[Dawnrazor]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Look at NI/Republic as an example. Hopefully, we would be grown up enough to follow their lead. 

Fair point.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

If we take the Euro as currency it'll be because we're in the EU, and that's not happening on day 1 or without further conversation so it's a pretty pointless scenario.

 

But take a step back and look what you're putting forward as downsides - things that might never happen, and if they ever do, they definitely won't be happening on independence.

But they will happen.

[micole]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

How many more times a day do people from Scotland and England cross the border as go to Spain or Ireland?

And yes, I spend Scottish noted down here regularly with no trouble, in fact used a few 10's and 20's on Friday in Leeds, not an eye batted.

Again, it really is not a problem as I said I did it loads of times when in Ireland. People just became used to it, also a lot of things are paid by card these days so personally I don't see it as a major problem.

 

[jack D and coke]

17 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you want to have to go to a currency exchange to get pound sterling for a weekend break across the border in England?

You use cash? I don’t even really bother getting euros for going abroad now. I draw euro’s over there or can use card with no charges. 

Its 2022 man. 

[Lord Montpelier]

21 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

All of it. I work for an English based company. But on 20th October 2023 I'll still work for an English based company servicing Scottsh customers. 

 

What do you think is going to happen? 

I think you'll be put at risk of redundancy within 5 years of any independence vote is what I think will happen. Same with mine . Hope you've got the years service in and can walk off with a good package. 

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

That's guess work. The report you posted pointed out on page 11 that they've no idea what border costs would be. For the avoidance of doubt, they've no idea what border costs would be. 

 

So the £2000 figure is also just made up?

 

What's not made up is the 9% increase in cost of living this year outside of the cost of Brexit which is running at £1m per hour. Every hour. Every day. 

 

You are all over the place slavering about Brexit and cost of living which is completely irrelevant to how much worse Scotland will fare post-independence.

 

Read the articles I linked to previously, which were written by economics experts within the UK.  The articles are clearly based on the available reference material, which of course is missing costed figures from the SNP to scrutinise.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

You use cash? I don’t even really bother getting euros for going abroad now. I draw euro’s over there or can use card with no charges. 

Its 2022 man. 

I still use cash 🤦🤦

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You use cash? I don’t even really bother getting euros for going abroad now. I draw euro’s over there or can use card with no charges. 

Its 2022 man. 

 

Are the no charges still in place post-brexit?  I've not been abroad in 5 years tbh.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I still use cash 🤦🤦

 not saying I never do but travelling from Scotland to England after indy for arguments sake then drawing money I don’t really see a problem. 
My bank lets me withdraw for free abroad up to a point then it’s a couple of quid per withdrawal. But I withdraw a lot so charges are minimal. Use a card in a restaurant or whatever and there is no charge at all.  

[frankblack]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

 not saying I never do but travelling from Scotland to England after indy for arguments sake then drawing money I don’t really see a problem. 
My bank lets me withdraw for free abroad up to a point then it’s a couple of quid per withdrawal. But I withdraw a lot so charges are minimal. Use a card in a restaurant or whatever and there is no charge at all.  

 

Fair enough. 👍

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Are the no charges still in place post-brexit?  I've not been abroad in 5 years tbh.

Depends on your bank but I can withdraw up to £300 free then it’s a couple quid after that. Just withdraw a decent amount if need more. 
Using the card to pay anywhere if you pay in local currency there isn’t a charge.
Just auto converts pounds to euros and debits your account. 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 not saying I never do but travelling from Scotland to England after indy for arguments sake then drawing money I don’t really see a problem. 
My bank lets me withdraw for free abroad up to a point then it’s a couple of quid per withdrawal. But I withdraw a lot so charges are minimal. Use a card in a restaurant or whatever and there is no charge at all.  

Aye, that'll be great in the event, may even drag me into using less cash!

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are all over the place slavering about Brexit and cost of living which is completely irrelevant to how much worse Scotland will fare post-independence.

 

Read the articles I linked to previously, which were written by economics experts within the UK.  The articles are clearly based on the available reference material, which of course is missing costed figures from the SNP to scrutinise.

Frank your first line of attack is to suggest that everyone who points out that your arguments don't stack up is 'all over the place'. It's the opening to everyone of your posts. 

 

Allow me to break into digestible chunks for you. 

 

You're on about the economy being worse under the SNP. I'm pointing out to you that currently, in the union, I'm 9% worse off than last year. A figure that is higher and will run longer thanks to the decision taken by the union to exit EU, which I was promised wouldn't happen in 2014. That's a real world actually happened financial impact to me. 

 

You linked to an article which I read when Pablo posted it and it conflates the actual economic ssnctions of Brexit, imposed on us by the Union, with made up border trade costs which they quite clearly state on page 11 of the report THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE BORDER TRADE COSTS WOULD BE. 

 

So again, absolutely no tangible benefits for remaining in the Union. 

 

Just more irrational decisions like imposing economic sanctions on yourself which will make your citizens poorer for a generation. 

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Frank your first line of attack is to suggest that everyone who points out that your arguments don't stack up is 'all over the place'. It's the opening to everyone of your posts. 

 

Allow me to break into digestible chunks for you. 

 

You're on about the economy being worse under the SNP. I'm pointing out to you that currently, in the union, I'm 9% worse off than last year. A figure that is higher and will run longer thanks to the decision taken by the union to exit EU, which I was promised wouldn't happen in 2014. That's a real world actually happened financial impact to me. 

 

You linked to an article which I read when Pablo posted it and it conflates the actual economic ssnctions of Brexit, imposed on us by the Union, with made up border trade costs which they quite clearly state on page 11 of the report THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE BORDER TRADE COSTS WOULD BE. 

 

So again, absolutely no tangible benefits for remaining in the Union. 

 

Just more irrational decisions like imposing economic sanctions on yourself which will make your citizens poorer for a generation. 

 

More slavering nonsense about Brexit and deliberately misleading stats on the cost of living crisis while repeatedly ignoring the facts I've told you each time that to give you accurate estimates we need the SNP to provide costed figures.  How many times do I have to repeat telling you the same thing?

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

More slavering nonsense about Brexit and deliberately misleading stats on the cost of living crisis while repeatedly ignoring the facts I've told you each time that to give you accurate estimates we need the SNP to provide costed figures.  How many times do I have to repeat telling you the same thing?

Don't take my word for it on the cost of living crisis Frank. Here's the governor of bank of England.

 

Real numbers Frank. Not ones pulled out your hoop. 

[indianajones]

On 02/07/2022 at 10:53, jack D and coke said:

This isn’t to derail the thread and I’m not saying it’s all the union side but sometimes I feel this needs aired. 

There are utter bellends on both sides.

 

Glasgow.

[Unknown user]

34 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

But they will happen.

 

The borders will seek independence? Scotland will take on the Euro?

 

You simply can't say these will happen.

They definitely won't happen on independence and if things happen later, it'll be after democratic process in Scotland instead of waiting to see what England fancies doing.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Aside from your other points the issue I want to pick up is what you said about Brexit which is just not true. 

Ms Sturgeon would have no chance of gaining sufficient support for a Referendum if brexit didn't happen. And speaking personally I am much more likely to vote for independence because of brexit. I know others who feel the same. 

From what I am seeing you will dismiss any arguments that contradict your view which is fair enough but you can't make sweeping statements that are just not true and expect to be taken seriously. 

Im The other way now regarding Brexit and how it impacts on a union . Hardly any benefits to it . Hence will probably vote no aS there’s no chance of joining the EU for a good few years . 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Don't take my word for it on the cost of living crisis Frank. Here's the governor of bank of England.

 

Real numbers Frank. Not ones pulled out your hoop. 

 

Yawn.  Tiresome trying to debate with someone who is trying to argue some irrelevant point completely separate from the point being debated.

 

I'll leave you to it - you are wasting my time. 👍

[The Mighty Thor]

29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Yawn.  Tiresome trying to debate with someone who is trying to argue some irrelevant point completely separate from the point being debated.

 

I'll leave you to it - you are wasting my time. 👍

Yip when faced with actual facts and not suppositions and made up nonsense you revert to dodge and deflect. 

 

You're wasting your own time. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I think that is debatable but off topic.  The fact remains that the EU have set a precedent and we know Scotland would be affected by an enforced hard border, which will have negative consequences for Scotland regardless of whether you agree or not.

 

You pretend to have been sitting on the fence but have been one of the biggest card-carrying indy cheerleaders on this thread. 

That's a terrible and quite frankly offensive post. I have never hidden my instinct for preferring scotland to stand on it's own two feet but want to weigh up the pros and cons before putting my vote in the ballot box. I genuinely have a lot of respect and pride in British history and achievements but I'm alarmed at the significant lurch to the right since the banking crisis.

In the real world away from Internet arseholes I have taken abuse from my own family for not blindly commiting so you if you have any self awareness at all you will see why your post is so contemptible. 

I don't have the answers but I am interested in hearing from those who might. I would have preferred the Referendum to wait until the world in general and the UK in particular had stabilised but the genie is out the bottle now so I can't opt out of what could be the biggest decision in our lives.

Your contribution might carry some credibility if wasn' loaded with aggression when people don't blindly agree with you. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Im The other way now regarding Brexit and how it impacts on a union . Hardly any benefits to it . Hence will probably vote no aS there’s no chance of joining the EU for a good few years . 

I'm not sure I follow the logic. As far as I recall the plan was to remain in sterling and the BoE were fine with that. We may have to join the Euro if we return to the EU (my preference) but neither will happen overnight. Assuming the rUK don't lurch even further to the right and want to give us a bloody nose for our impertinence then I'd be hopeful of an orderly transition. 

If my history is correct the UK have generally been very supportive of the transition to independence so I would like to think they would be OK in the circs if it were to transpire

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Fair point.

If some of the attitudes shown today are anything to go by that's not necessarily a given. 

[Dawnrazor]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If some of the attitudes shown today are anything to go by that's not necessarily a given. 

Aye, this thread definitely brings out the best in people!

[frankblack]

25 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

That's a terrible and quite frankly offensive post. I have never hidden my instinct for preferring scotland to stand on it's own two feet but want to weigh up the pros and cons before putting my vote in the ballot box. I genuinely have a lot of respect and pride in British history and achievements but I'm alarmed at the significant lurch to the right since the banking crisis.

In the real world away from Internet arseholes I have taken abuse from my own family for not blindly commiting so you if you have any self awareness at all you will see why your post is so contemptible. 

I don't have the answers but I am interested in hearing from those who might. I would have preferred the Referendum to wait until the world in general and the UK in particular had stabilised but the genie is out the bottle now so I can't opt out of what could be the biggest decision in our lives.

Your contribution might carry some credibility if wasn' loaded with aggression when people don't blindly agree with you. 

 

You have only been interested in hearing one side of the debate and clearly made your mind up, as witnessed by your replies jumping on anyone criticising the Yes position and asking for scrutiny. A particular example being the links I provided earlier with economic experts doing their best to identify the probable scenarios considering the lack of detail committed to for independence.  You discounted that completely without justification or reason.

 

This whole thread is unbalanced with the Yes position completely lacking detail for scrutiny and yet as soon as someone tries to point that out we somehow must justify reasons for staying in the UK when we don't know what we are supposed to leave to and where that is going to take us.

 

I respect the determination of some posters like Ked for their ideals and detailed attempt to give their side but we need to hear hard facts committed to by the SNP to debate, because at the end of the day only what they commit to matters.  All that is being debated is what exists now vs a fantasy that the SNP won't detail.

Edited July 3, 2022 by frankblack

[i wish jj was my dad]

You're digging a bigger hole, Frank. 

I want to be convinced. Maybe I don't like the abuse that goes with your convincing but it's clearly not working. Personally, I'm comfortable enough to take a hit of higher taxes to help create a just and more equitable society that was interested in the collective good across the UK rather than filling the coffers of their pals. I'd be delighted if Keir Starmer or even a more moderate Tory could do that. If they could, I'd probably vote no and would be glad to see the debate closed down for a generation. All I hear though is we are shit and need England to look after us. And I'm stupid because I can't see it That is not convincing me. Plenty of time though and despite your best efforts I won't put you on ignore. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

20 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm not sure I follow the logic. As far as I recall the plan was to remain in sterling and the BoE were fine with that. We may have to join the Euro if we return to the EU (my preference) but neither will happen overnight. Assuming the rUK don't lurch even further to the right and want to give us a bloody nose for our impertinence then I'd be hopeful of an orderly transition. 

If my history is correct the UK have generally been very supportive of the transition to independence so I would like to think they would be OK in the circs if it were to transpire

There are various criteria for joining the EU . An Indy Scotland joining it would need to full full that criteria . Anyway I am never keen in conflating Indy and rejoining the Eu . They are both very separate issues and should remain so . I would like us to rejoin the EU but I won’t be bribed by any carrot from the SNP if they state that a vote for Indy is a vote for rejoining the EU . No way . 

[i wish jj was my dad]

I don't think it would be a bribe. As much as I think the current SNP leadership are absolute opportunists I believe that on this point it is a.matter of conviction. I'd be delighted if Labour and the liberals came out and said it too because it would be a real game changer for demonstrating that the UK is a responsible International partner. Even if we came back on lesser terms than we left with. 

[manaliveits105]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I think that is debatable but off topic.  The fact remains that the EU have set a precedent and we know Scotland would be affected by an enforced hard border, which will have negative consequences for Scotland regardless of whether you agree or not.

 

You pretend to have been sitting on the fence but have been one of the biggest card-carrying indy cheerleaders on this thread. 

Spot on suddenly appears as a fence sitter and fools no one 

and rude to boot - running about with imaginary yellow cards 

[OTT]

33 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

There are various criteria for joining the EU . An Indy Scotland joining it would need to full full that criteria . Anyway I am never keen in conflating Indy and rejoining the Eu . They are both very separate issues and should remain so . I would like us to rejoin the EU but I won’t be bribed by any carrot from the SNP if they state that a vote for Indy is a vote for rejoining the EU . No way . 

Absolutely correct re joining the EU being a long and criteria packed road, which is why many people are advocating EFTA membership since this would only take 3-6 months to achieve and would give us access to 26 global trade deals (including a free trade deal with the UK) as well as bringing back freedom of movement meaning social schemes like Erasmus could be relaunched.