Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Ked]

12 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Slippery slope, mate. 

 

You can’t quantify Scottishness. Unless it’s a vote for current legal residents at the time of the referendum then you devalue its legitimacy.

If you can't quantify Scotland then really there's no country you can quantify.

Scottishness not being quantified is like not quantifying any country anywhere.

And the concept of country or nation is really what your questioning.

Which is fair enough .

But independence is really about dealing with what's in front of us.

Dawnrazor questions the substance of me wanting Scotland to govern itself and needs answers.

I answered as best I could .

He then goes on to talk about different regions wanting independence from Scotland.

I really don't want to dismiss concerns but it's getting ridiculous.

Can't remember who but they said just admit ties to the UK.

You question Scottishness what is Britishness?

What is European ish?

It's all constructed from centuries ago.

You can't deny that you feel Scottish that there's been an effect on you.

That being the lesser valued ,handed housekeeping money doesn't affect groups of people.

Look at any example of any form of subjugation.

It doesn't have to be mean .

I'm rambling sorry.

Don't want to portray Scotland as a victim but there's a reason for our ill health.

 

[jack D and coke]

Ked Wallace there 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
 

[jack D and coke]

My mas name is wallace….
My middle name is wallace…My grunda was William Wallace…

Is it my time?

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve had these bonkers conversations with people on twitter. Talking of balkanisation of Scotland. 
Borders might be silly but they are historical and there’s not many countries more historical than Scotland. 
We vote yes and you don’t like it?
Rwanda for you😀

It's at this point you should have stopped.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

In the 15 years I lived abroad, I certainly wouldn’t have expected one.

 

I,m 55 years and I wouldn't want one, if it all went wrong we would be the first reason because of our votes whatever way we voted.

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 

I,m 55 years and I wouldn't want one, if it all went wrong we would be the first reason because of our votes whatever way we voted.

I understand what you’re saying bob. So if the rules were ex pats were allowed a vote you’d abstain? 
It’s not a loaded question pal I’m just  curious?

Not whether you’d vote Yes or No but just whether you’d possibly vote? 

[Sharpie]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I understand what you’re saying bob. So if the rules were ex pats were allowed a vote you’d abstain? 
It’s not a loaded question pal I’m just  curious?

Not whether you’d vote Yes or No but just whether you’d possibly vote? 

Yes I would not use my privilege to vote, I have been gone 55 years, I really know nothing about life for the every day man or woman in Scotland, it would be a travesty if my vote caused a result that was bad for Scotland, yes I know it could work the other way also but that would be the only contribution I had made to Scotland in 55 years. And in truth I now perceive myself as Canadian and when asked my nationality I say Canadian, and of course with the ultimate comment oh you sound like you have a Scottish accent I would proudly admit Scotlnd as my place of birth.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

Yes I would not use my privilege to vote, I have been gone 55 years, I really know nothing about life for the every day man or woman in Scotland, it would be a travesty if my vote caused a result that was bad for Scotland, yes I know it could work the other way also but that would be the only contribution I had made to Scotland in 55 years. And in truth I now perceive myself as Canadian and when asked my nationality I say Canadian, and of course with the ultimate comment oh you sound like you have a Scottish accent I would proudly admit Scotlnd as my place of birth.

It’s what I thought mate. As always using your head.
Bob you’re a Scotsman mate, forever🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

A jambo too that stuff never leaves you🇱🇻

 

[That thing you do]

Worth a read

 

https://www.livebreathescotland.com/would-england-be-richer-without-scotland/?fbclid=IwAR13Gdj4F6NNCy7Ume9bfNJWLg2xy70A4A13nDfnf-fU7Wv07HGTfil0pEQ

.

 

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Ked Wallace there 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
 

Let's hope the media shows the Orangemen of NI burning the Saltire, in the bone fires. Let's see how that goes down with Scots.

Edited July 3, 2022 by ri Alban

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

58 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Let's hope the media shows the Orangemen of NI burning the Saltire, in the bone fires. Let's see how that goes down with Scots.

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Let's hope the media shows the Orangemen of NI burning the Saltire, in the bone fires. Let's see how that goes down with Scots.

I know that there are an element of obtuse bangers around who look for excuses like that to stoke up unrest but most of us are bright and measured enough to see it for what it is. 

[manaliveits105]

Looks like Ms Murrell  had a hard night 

[Lord Montpelier]

9 hours ago, Ked said:

Fair enough.

Could you see yourself voting yes?

Under the right economic circumstances (which boil down to will I have a job or not) , yes. Damage my prospects, or those of the children, very much no .

[i wish jj was my dad]

13 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Looks like Ms Murrell  had a hard night 

That's a fantastic contribution. You must be very proud. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Looks like Ms Murrell  had a hard night 

Absolute zoomer noticing she's become more and more angry when questioned. She's backed herself into a crazy postion and I suspect the pressure is getting too much.

[Dawnrazor]

6 hours ago, Sharpie said:

Yes I would not use my privilege to vote, I have been gone 55 years, I really know nothing about life for the every day man or woman in Scotland, it would be a travesty if my vote caused a result that was bad for Scotland, yes I know it could work the other way also but that would be the only contribution I had made to Scotland in 55 years. And in truth I now perceive myself as Canadian and when asked my nationality I say Canadian, and of course with the ultimate comment oh you sound like you have a Scottish accent I would proudly admit Scotlnd as my place of birth.

All good points Bob, but I have a different set of circumstances, I've been away twice, 5 years, back for 8 now away for 14, but we intend to move back when we can, we're only about an hour and forty minutes from the border, all our family are still in Scotland and we're up and down on a regular basis, I think my wife and should have a vote. Jack D and Coke and yourself raise an interesting idea, what if all ex pay's are allowed a vote but would be free to abstain? I realise everyone is free to abstain in any election but I do think people who are Scottish should have a say on its future.

[Dawnrazor]

8 hours ago, Ked said:

 

He then goes on to talk about different regions wanting independence from Scotland. I really don't want to dismiss concerns but it's getting ridiculous.

 

 

It's not ridiculous at all, it's been raised in England on numerous occasions by Cumbria, Northumberland and Cornwall, it's not only some Scots who want independence, if say Edinburgh and the Borders think they'd be better of staying with the UK or Shetland or Orkney think they're better off going it alone, why is that different? Or are they all "too wee and too stupid"? 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Dawnrazor]

9 hours ago, Smithee said:

It's not a parallel.

When did Edinburgh enter a union with Scotland?

How old is Shetland's distinct legal system?

When was the borders an established independent nation?

So no then.

[ri Alban]

Yes takes the lead.

[Unknown user]

27 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's not ridiculous at all, it's been raised in England on numerous occasions by Cumbria, Northumberland and Cornwall, it's not only some Scots who want independence, if say Edinburgh and the Borders think they'd be better of staying with the UK or Shetland or Orkney think they're better off going it alone, why is that different? Or are they all "too wee and too stupid"? 

 

Start a thread then, this ones about Scottish independence.

 

26 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So no then.

 

It's not a parallel. They're not too wee or too stupid, they've never been a country and it's a ridiculous conversation.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Start a thread then, this ones about Scottish independence.

 

 

It's not a parallel. They're not too wee or too stupid, they've never been a country and it's a ridiculous conversation.

Edinburgh and the Borders are in Scotland, if they asked for their independence or to stay with the UK post a Scotland becoming independent, would you allow them to vote?, it doesn't need another thread, I was interested in your view.

[Lord Montpelier]

25 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Yes takes the lead.

Very surprised you've not been banned. 

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, jonesy said:

At least they have a currency 😜 

Rwanda do have a currency, pounds sterling. Lots and lots of them. In fact a number so large that HM Government refuse to disclose just how many hundreds of millions of pounds beyond the £100m the UKs illegal resettlement scheme supposedly is costing. All to resettle er zero migrants. Keeps the racist little Englander base happy though👍

Do you want the country you live in to be like that?

 

Me neither. 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Edinburgh and the Borders are in Scotland, if they asked for their independence or to stay with the UK post a Scotland becoming independent, would you allow them to vote?, it doesn't need another thread, I was interested in your view.

Ask me when significant percentages of their populations have been campaigning for it, right now it's a really weak discussion point in the independence debate.

[The Mighty Thor]

12 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

Can I play, or is this between you and FB?

Jonesy if you have those answers mate, I'd love to see them. 

 

Frank is unwilling or I suspect unable to put forward any benefits to remaining in the Union. 

There's not a single benefit to be had, even since 2014 when the 'branch office' parties all clubbed together to promise the world to Scots. So far? Zip. Nadal. Zilch. 

 

The union has an outright obligation to put forward its case. Fully costed and with a solid time line IMO. 

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Looks like Ms Murrell  had a hard night 

Do everyone a favour and stay out this you brainless cretin👍🏼

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Do everyone a favour and stay out this you brainless cretin👍🏼

Go on Nicola. How on earth she manages to keep sane dealing with the brain dead media and their cronies at times takes some amount of patience. Without doubt the best politician in the UK.

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Go on Nicola. How on earth she manages to keep sane dealing with the brain dead media and their cronies at times takes some amount of patience. Without doubt the best politician in the UK.

It’s days old anyway and what does that add? Where does it take any debate? 
Honestly what a brain cripple. 

[Hmfc1965]

9 hours ago, Ked said:

If you can't quantify Scotland then really there's no country you can quantify.

Scottishness not being quantified is like not quantifying any country anywhere.

And the concept of country or nation is really what your questioning.

Which is fair enough .

But independence is really about dealing with what's in front of us.

Dawnrazor questions the substance of me wanting Scotland to govern itself and needs answers.

I answered as best I could .

He then goes on to talk about different regions wanting independence from Scotland.

I really don't want to dismiss concerns but it's getting ridiculous.

Can't remember who but they said just admit ties to the UK.

You question Scottishness what is Britishness?

What is European ish?

It's all constructed from centuries ago.

You can't deny that you feel Scottish that there's been an effect on you.

That being the lesser valued ,handed housekeeping money doesn't affect groups of people.

Look at any example of any form of subjugation.

It doesn't have to be mean .

I'm rambling sorry.

Don't want to portray Scotland as a victim but there's a reason for our ill health.

 

If by ill health you mean physical health and life expectancy etc, almost all of the matters affecting that have been devolved for years 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I’m one of those people who finds national identity a weird thing to get excited about. The older I’ve got, the less I care. Seems odd to get so exercised about the patch of land you happened to be born on. I’m neither proud to be Scottish or not proud to be Scottish. It’s just a thing

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

39 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Jonesy if you have those answers mate, I'd love to see them. 

 

Frank is unwilling or I suspect unable to put forward any benefits to remaining in the Union. 

There's not a single benefit to be had, even since 2014 when the 'branch office' parties all clubbed together to promise the world to Scots. So far? Zip. Nadal. Zilch. 

 

The union has an outright obligation to put forward its case. Fully costed and with a solid time line IMO. 

On the contrary, the union already exists, therefore the argument has to be made by the people who want change

[JudyJudyJudy]

50 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Very surprised you've not been banned. 

I’m surprised too 

43 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Jonesy if you have those answers mate, I'd love to see them. 

 

Frank is unwilling or I suspect unable to put forward any benefits to remaining in the Union. 

There's not a single benefit to be had, even since 2014 when the 'branch office' parties all clubbed together to promise the world to Scots. So far? Zip. Nadal. Zilch. 

 

The union has an outright obligation to put forward its case. Fully costed and with a solid time line IMO. 

No the Union has no obligation to put forward any case AS they are not the ones demanding independence . It’s up to yes to convince people to leave the status quo . 

Edited July 3, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

On the contrary, the union already exists, therefore the argument has to be made by the people who want change

Yep just said that too 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’m one of those people who finds national identity a weird thing to get excited about. The older I’ve got, the less I care. Seems odd to get so exercised about the patch of land you happened to be born on. I’m neither proud to be Scottish or not proud to be Scottish. It’s just a thing

Same here . I’m Scottish and British but not that bothered to be just Scottish 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Same here . I’m Scottish and British but not that bothered to be just Scottish 

I’m equally not remotely bothered about being British, or European or whatever

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

On the contrary, the union already exists, therefore the argument has to be made by the people who want change

 

Fine by me, I really hope the unionists don't bother putting a case forward.

[frankblack]

 

36 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Jonesy if you have those answers mate, I'd love to see them. 

 

Frank is unwilling or I suspect unable to put forward any benefits to remaining in the Union. 

There's not a single benefit to be had, even since 2014 when the 'branch office' parties all clubbed together to promise the world to Scots. So far? Zip. Nadal. Zilch. 

 

The union has an outright obligation to put forward its case. Fully costed and with a solid time line IMO. 

 

The key benefit is standard of living.

 

All the benefits of the UK are the shared costs and benefits.  Scotland getting its deficit propped up by the rest of the UK, getting the vaccine due to UK efforts, and having shared wealth, state pension, social security system.  It has yet to be seen how Scotland would afford those because we have no costed plan to review.

 

Do your research.

 

Here are some negatives:

• Increased cost on trade to Scottish Business by international border between Scotland and England: https://www.economicsobservatory.com/how-might-scottish-independence-affect-the-costs-of-international-trade

• https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit: 

  • The combination of independence and Brexit would reduce Scotland’s income per capita by between 6.3 per cent and 8.7 per cent in the long-run, a new study from the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) shows. 

  • The economic hit from the two events is equivalent to an income loss of between £2,000 and £2,800 per person every year, economists estimate. The study Disunited Kingdom? Brexit, Trade and Scottish Independencepublished today by the LSE’s Centre for Economic Performance, analyses the impact on Scotland’s economy of potential changes in trade barriers resulting from Brexit and Scottish independence.  

 

What are the costed benefits of Scotland being independent?  That is what you need to compare like with like.   There are clearly huge holes or the SNP would have published them since 2014? As soon as they are forced into it then independent scrutiny will show them to be reckless halfwits who would throw the economy under a bus to get one over the English.

 

I haven't even looked into currency, cost of borrowing, managing debt inherited from UK etc.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Fine by me, I really hope the unionists don't bother putting a case forward.

I don’t think they will this time, other than criticising the SNP and Sturgeon. Assuming the vote goes ahead, yes will probably win

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

On the contrary, the union already exists, therefore the argument has to be made by the people who want change

 

 

The nationalists want us to make a case for remaining when the case for leaving hasn't been presented or costed.  Its batshit mental and economic suicide.

[jack D and coke]

Get one over the English 🙈

[Largo]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Let's hope the media shows the Orangemen of NI burning the Saltire, in the bone fires. Let's see how that goes down with Scots.

Where did you see this, please share !

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Largo said:

Where did you see this, please share !

 

I watched a thing about the orange order in Scotland a couple of weeks ago, one of the main dudes openly admitting they'd probably go paramilitary in the event of Scottish independence.

 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Largo said:

Where did you see this, please share !

I seen it on twitter as well. It’s about the yes movement. 
At least they won’t come here after ireland re-unifies. 
Rwanda for them too☺️

[Largo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I watched a thing about the orange order in Scotland a couple of weeks ago, one of the main dudes openly admitting they'd probably go paramilitary in the event of Scottish independence.

 

Now that's two of you who have seen these anti Scot comments by Orangemen of NI  & threats of burning the Saltire & going  paramilitary . Can you please share !!

[Largo]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I seen it on twitter as well. It’s about the yes movement. 
At least they won’t come here after ireland re-unifies. 
Rwanda for them too☺️

Twitter , behave yourself .

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Largo said:

Now that's two of you who have seen these anti Scot comments by Orangemen of NI  & threats of burning the Saltire & going  paramilitary . Can you please share !!

 

It was a YouTube video, can't remember what I searched for

[frankblack]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

It was a YouTube video, can't remember what I searched for

 

You could at least have used the excuse you were searching for porn.

[Largo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

It was a YouTube video, can't remember what I searched for

🤣🤣 Sure it was 👍

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Largo said:

Twitter , behave yourself .

You think these people will be in favour of a yes vote?