Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Just realised yesterday was the 1st🤣🤦

You know it's bad when I'm the one with his shit together!

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You know it's bad when I'm the one with his shit together!

I wasn't going to point that out but......🤣👍

FFS I've been looking forward to the Peter Hook and the Light gig for months on the 1st of July, last ****in night and my birthday on  Monday!!! Deary deary me🤣🤣🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Come back to me when the SNP aren't shitting themselves  to publish their independence strategy and answer the points of the critics.

 

Lets be honest here you can't debate one side against the other when the SNP won't tell us what their answers are!

So you've got nothing to offer yet are demanding that everyone else publishes the documents? 😂

 

Could it be there is no case from remaining in the Union. No benefits. No empirical evidence to justify the case?

 

Sounds very much like it. 

 

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

No, you are missing the point.

 

His arguments are irrelevant as he is not using the committed position of the SNP, which doesn't exist.

Who is to say the SNP would be in government post independence? There is every possibility that they won't be and given that they have had Angela Constance and Fergus Ewan in the same cabinet I expect them to splinter very quickly. Folk like them are unlikely to serve in the same cabinet post independence so I don't see the SNP remaining as they are after independence. That could open it up for a labour or some other  administration. 

As for Ked. As I see it he is setting out how an independent Scotland could tackle some of the issues you have concerns about but it looks like you don't want to hear it because you don't want independence. 

[Ked]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

All that bluster and you didn't answer the question.

 

Which option have the SNP committed to?

Bluster?

I gave an explanation why I think they haven't.Im not the SNP.

Do you think if we vote yes transition will take a day?

We have a union that's evolved over 3 centuries.

Bluster.

Frank I'm anything but.

I try not to post too deep about this.

Ultimately I don't give a fek.

We make our own way in the world but waiting on a fekin handout every year isn't for me.

And rhats the bottom line.

 

Metaphorical shite I know.

But it's like when you hear that there's no point working because you get more on benefits.

That's a fekin shite attitude.

 

 

[Ked]

3 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Party manifestos are well known to be full of holes. 

 

Of course there are no guarantees, but at least it will allow for proper scrutiny and electorate comparison. 

Fair enough.

Could you see yourself voting yes?

[OTT]

14 hours ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

I don’t agree. I think it’s known the status quo can’t hold forever.
 

However, the independence the SNP is not the solution, they are blinded by delivering it rather than ensuring it’s what’s best. 
 

The thing I don’t get about the argument for independence is there seems to be no acknowledgement of any potential drawbacks - it’s all Shangri-La. 
 

At the end of the day none of us know what it would be like, however, it’s not unrealistic to think a lot of UK companies would pull out of Scotland (as many have indicated they would) and as I understand we would have no military (apologies if I’ve misunderstood this) so have many people would instantly be out of work?  I assume there would be some kind of ‘divorce bill’ like there is with Brexit. There’s far too much uncertainty around things like pension and welfare. 
 

In the (hopefully) near future there can hopefully be grown up conversations about what's best for the whole UK. 
 

Independence is such a divisive subject.- just look on this thread. I can’t understand perusing it when it’s clear at least 50% of the country aren’t on board. 
 

Say Yes wins. Is that really going to be the end of it? He’s haven’t accepted the result of the last referendum- is it unrealistic to say No won’t accept the result if they lose? Where does it end? Do we create another Northern Ireland?

 

Also what is plan B, if things don’t work out? 

 

 

I genuinely don't believe that the UK is capable of change. The structure suits the establishment and from my previous post, the establishment are not interested in further empowering the devolved administrations, or for that matter respecting devolution. You say that you don't think the status quo can't hold forever, I assume you mean the current structure of the UK, ie. that there will be change to how the UK is governed. Can I ask whats led you to that view? Quite honestly, I think this government would happily shut down all of the devolved parliaments if it could get away with it. 

 

The point you've made about Independence not being the solution, I could go on for ages about it. I suspect we're probably going to be at an impasse with it but my belief is that you can't adequately address the needs of your country with one hand tied behind your back, to pick one example, Drug deaths. Safe consumption rooms work, Portugal had a horrendous drug problem and safe consumption rooms helped turn things round there. Due to drug policy being a reserved matter we can't experiment with different methods of tackling this. I think that it is a cultural problem which is impacting us far worse than down south and we need to be free to tackle this issue in a way which works best for the people that live here. A great example on the flip side of this is knife crime. Glasgow I think had a terrible record for this until they stopped treating it as a crime problem and more as a public health issue. We were able to take an innovative approach because it didn't encroach on reserved matters.

 

Personally speaking, my experience is that the vast majority of people in the yes movement know you can't sugar coat things, folk smell bullshit and go running the other way and it is naive to think soft nos can be won over by talking shite about the land of milk and honey. There are going to be challenges, but they will be our challenges to overcome. Europe for example, we can't immediately join the EU, what we can do is join EFTA and begin to position ourselves for EU membership. ETFA would take about 3-6 months to join. Europe potentially 5 years, maybe longer. 

 

UK companies pulling out, sure some might. Brexit has been devastating in that regard to firms cutting jobs in the UK. 440 financial services firms have moved jobs to the EU as a result. Its fair to say that some might choose to relocate south of the border, but equally, EU firms may also choose to create jobs in Scotland following EFTA/EU membership. We're an educated, English speaking country with a financial hub as our capital city. Regards to pensions, we already have the worst pensions in Europe but Scots have paid into their national insurance so common sense would dictate that responsibility for this would transfer to the Scottish Government. 

 

I could flip that point the other way, you are acknowledging the need for change which is great, but I think those arguing to maintain the Union need to understand why almost half the country want independence and why 74% of 18-25 year olds are backing it. Thats a very worrying trend for the union. As things stand, the only saving grace is the over 65s which due to us having an aging population is keeping the debate 50/50. 

 

I think any notion of replicating the situation in Northern Ireland doesn't marry up with reality. 

 

I'm enjoying the debate around this, I think its good seeing people able to engage with each other in good faith despite disagreements  

Edited July 2, 2022 by OTT
forgot to address plan b point sorry

[Ked]

3 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Overall really, it's all just a bit wooly, it's all ifs and butts. What we need is a positive definitive statement from the SNP, but I asked you earlier, can you see why people are worried about this? It could all so easily put to bed if it was as easy as you suggest, why do you think the SNP didn't answer this last time and still haven't this time considering it generates so my uncertainty and  negativity?

I kind of gave that answer to Frank.

There are a variety of options mate pros and cons.

There's also cons to our current situation.

The 2008 crash meant that the UK central bank had to bail out the system along with the US federal reserve.

Propping up their respective currency.

Countries where real wealth exists that don't rely on the casino .....

I'm going to stop here buddy.

There's pros and cons to every way you choose to run an economy.

All I'm saying is there's options that if the SNP imo stated we would hear about only the cons.

The decision to either be part of a monetary union with any currency or to merely use one dollarisation or sterling would likely be negotiated or decided post indy.

That's how I  read it and it won't affect your savings or their worth.

Trades imo the difficult one.

 

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I genuinely don't believe that the UK is capable of change. The structure suits the establishment and from my previous post, the establishment are not interested in further empowering the devolved administrations, or for that matter respecting devolution. You say that you don't think the status quo can't hold forever, I assume you mean the current structure of the UK, ie. that there will be change to how the UK is governed. Can I ask whats led you to that view? Quite honestly, I think this government would happily shut down all of the devolved parliaments if it could get away with it. 

 

The point you've made about Independence not being the solution, I could go on for ages about it. I suspect we're probably going to be at an impasse with it but my belief is that you can't adequately address the needs of your country with one hand tied behind your back, to pick one example, Drug deaths. Safe consumption rooms work, Portugal had a horrendous drug problem and safe consumption rooms helped turn things round there. Due to drug policy being a reserved matter we can't experiment with different methods of tackling this. I think that it is a cultural problem which is impacting us far worse than down south and we need to be free to tackle this issue in a way which works best for the people that live here. A great example on the flip side of this is knife crime. Glasgow I think had a terrible record for this until they stopped treating it as a crime problem and more as a public health issue. We were able to take an innovative approach because it didn't encroach on reserved matters.

 

Personally speaking, my experience is that the vast majority of people in the yes movement know you can't sugar coat things, folk smell bullshit and go running the other way and it is naive to think soft nos can be won over by talking shite about the land of milk and honey. There are going to be challenges, but they will be our challenges to overcome. Europe for example, we can't immediately join the EU, what we can do is join EFTA and begin to position ourselves for EU membership. ETFA would take about 3-6 months to join. Europe potentially 5 years, maybe longer. 

 

UK companies pulling out, sure some might. Brexit has been devastating in that regard to firms cutting jobs in the UK. 440 financial services firms have moved jobs to the EU as a result. Its fair to say that some might choose to relocate south of the border, but equally, EU firms may also choose to create jobs in Scotland following EFTA/EU membership. We're an educated, English speaking country with a financial hub as our capital city. Regards to pensions, we already have the worst pensions in Europe but Scots have paid into their national insurance so common sense would dictate that responsibility for this would transfer to the Scottish Government. 

 

I could flip that point the other way, you are acknowledging the need for change which is great, but I think those arguing to maintain the Union need to understand why almost half the country want independence and why 74% of 18-25 year olds are backing it. Thats a very worrying trend for the union. As things stand, the only saving grace is the over 65s which due to us having an aging population is keeping the debate 50/50. 

 

I think any notion of replicating the situation in Northern Ireland doesn't marry up with reality. By Plan B, do you mean if we're 

 

I'm enjoying the debate around this, I think its good seeing people able to engage with each other in good faith despite disagreements  

Good post.

And another that proves its not all about flags .

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, Ked said:

I kind of gave that answer to Frank.

There are a variety of options mate pros and cons.

There's also cons to our current situation.

The 2008 crash meant that the UK central bank had to bail out the system along with the US federal reserve.

Propping up their respective currency.

Countries where real wealth exists that don't rely on the casino .....

I'm going to stop here buddy.

There's pros and cons to every way you choose to run an economy.

All I'm saying is there's options that if the SNP imo stated we would hear about only the cons.

The decision to either be part of a monetary union with any currency or to merely use one dollarisation or sterling would likely be negotiated or decided post indy.

That's how I  read it and it won't affect your savings or their worth.

Trades imo the difficult one.

 

👍 

[jack D and coke]

14 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I genuinely don't believe that the UK is capable of change. The structure suits the establishment and from my previous post, the establishment are not interested in further empowering the devolved administrations, or for that matter respecting devolution. You say that you don't think the status quo can't hold forever, I assume you mean the current structure of the UK, ie. that there will be change to how the UK is governed. Can I ask whats led you to that view? Quite honestly, I think this government would happily shut down all of the devolved parliaments if it could get away with it. 

 

The point you've made about Independence not being the solution, I could go on for ages about it. I suspect we're probably going to be at an impasse with it but my belief is that you can't adequately address the needs of your country with one hand tied behind your back, to pick one example, Drug deaths. Safe consumption rooms work, Portugal had a horrendous drug problem and safe consumption rooms helped turn things round there. Due to drug policy being a reserved matter we can't experiment with different methods of tackling this. I think that it is a cultural problem which is impacting us far worse than down south and we need to be free to tackle this issue in a way which works best for the people that live here. A great example on the flip side of this is knife crime. Glasgow I think had a terrible record for this until they stopped treating it as a crime problem and more as a public health issue. We were able to take an innovative approach because it didn't encroach on reserved matters.

 

Personally speaking, my experience is that the vast majority of people in the yes movement know you can't sugar coat things, folk smell bullshit and go running the other way and it is naive to think soft nos can be won over by talking shite about the land of milk and honey. There are going to be challenges, but they will be our challenges to overcome. Europe for example, we can't immediately join the EU, what we can do is join EFTA and begin to position ourselves for EU membership. ETFA would take about 3-6 months to join. Europe potentially 5 years, maybe longer. 

 

UK companies pulling out, sure some might. Brexit has been devastating in that regard to firms cutting jobs in the UK. 440 financial services firms have moved jobs to the EU as a result. Its fair to say that some might choose to relocate south of the border, but equally, EU firms may also choose to create jobs in Scotland following EFTA/EU membership. We're an educated, English speaking country with a financial hub as our capital city. Regards to pensions, we already have the worst pensions in Europe but Scots have paid into their national insurance so common sense would dictate that responsibility for this would transfer to the Scottish Government. 

 

I could flip that point the other way, you are acknowledging the need for change which is great, but I think those arguing to maintain the Union need to understand why almost half the country want independence and why 74% of 18-25 year olds are backing it. Thats a very worrying trend for the union. As things stand, the only saving grace is the over 65s which due to us having an aging population is keeping the debate 50/50. 

 

I think any notion of replicating the situation in Northern Ireland doesn't marry up with reality. 

 

I'm enjoying the debate around this, I think its good seeing people able to engage with each other in good faith despite disagreements  

Excellent stuff there. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

My observation from today is that Yes have presented by far the stronger case. Hopefully, No put an argument for staying tomorrow. 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

My observation from today is that Yes have presented by far the stronger case. Hopefully, No put an argument for staying tomorrow. 

Are you a Yes voter?

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

My observation from today is that Yes have presented by far the stronger case. Hopefully, No put an argument for staying tomorrow. 

That would take some monumental verbal gymnastics....that would be torn apart very easily.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Are you a Yes voter?

I did last time but I would rather not have a Referendum while the world and the UK is in such turmoil. I think Ms Sturgeon has put opportunism before national interest. She is hoping that folk hate the Tories that much they will do anything to get rid of them. I'd prefer to have a debate during a period of relative stability and without a bogeyman in No. 10. What she has done has opened the door to some serious extremism and I can't forgive her for that. 

 

As to your question. My instinct is yes this time but I've been described as a shitebag, quisling etc because I need persuaded before I cast my vote. What won't persuade me is people chucking shite at views they don't agree with. Both sides have a tendency to do that. 

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

My observation from today is that Yes have presented by far the stronger case. Hopefully, No put an argument for staying tomorrow. 

I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to LBC and James O’Brien but quite a few times the indy chat comes up. The difference from anything you hear in Scotland is unreal. The callers (Scottish mostly obviously) are intelligent and make excellent points and carry the conversation and JOB is a really clever guy anyway and it never descends into the nonsense like anything on radio Scotland or whatever. 
It feels like the people here have a starting point whereas JOB comes at it from an actual neutral perspective. 
 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

I did last time but I would rather not have a Referendum while the world and the UK is in such turmoil. I think Ms Sturgeon has put opportunism before national interest. She is hoping that folk hate the Tories that much they will do anything to get rid of them. I'd prefer to have a debate during a period of relative stability and without a bogeyman in No. 10. What she has done has opened the door to some serious extremism and I can't forgive her for that. 

 

As to your question. My instinct is yes this time but I've been described as a shitebag, quisling etc because I need persuaded before I cast my vote. What won't persuade me is people chucking shite at views they don't agree with. Both sides have a tendency to do that. 

I only asked as I think people see the argument through a personal lense, I don't get a vote but would've No last time a d haven't been convinced otherwise yet and I certainly don't think the Yes side have done brilliantly on this thread, just my opinion. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

3 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

I honestly find it incomprehensible that there are Yes voters who wouldn't have even one question about it as I am about  No voters who wouldn't want to more about it, if that's what you're saying it reflects badly on Scotland.

*edit*

How the **** can anyone not have any questions or be open to any kind of persuasion, c'mon tae ****?😅😅😅

I'm fine with people having questions,  I have spoken to many over the years. What I can't be arsed with is people pretending to have questions, when really their minds are closed. These are the people you can answer each snd every question they raise, but they'll just move the goalposts, raise another straw man. What's the point?

 

Anyway I've annoyed myself with my last few posts, I will just leave it there. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to LBC and James O’Brien but quite a few times the indy chat comes up. The difference from anything you hear in Scotland is unreal. The callers (Scottish mostly obviously) are intelligent and make excellent points and carry the conversation and JOB is a really clever guy anyway and it never descends into the nonsense like anything on radio Scotland or whatever. 
It feels like the people here have a starting point whereas JOB comes at it from an actual neutral perspective. 
 

I saw his thing about BloJo the other day and was impressed. 

I have folk really close to me who can't help but turn purple with rage at the thought that I might want to weigh up the pros and cons. I can't get my head around that and the two arseholes that pop up on here to insult the other side show you how.low this can descend. But i'm more worried when an otherwise decent poster comes on to describe folk like me as shitebags and doubled down whe. I challenged him. This could get very messy and I hope NS doesn't regret it. 

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I only asked as I think people see the argument through a personal lense, I don't get a vote but would've No last time a d haven't been convinced otherwise yet and I certainly don't think the Yes side have done brilliantly on this thread, just my opinion. 

There’s nothing wrong with wanting the union to remain. I was a big unionist at one point, a proper herts man if you like,  but I think scotland needs to do things that affect people here.
I get the central belt centralisation argument as well and I’d be all for the islands etc to get more say in how they run things on their own patch. 
Matbe I’m too idealistic about it all. 
Why be afraid of the future. 
 

[i wish jj was my dad]

10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I only asked as I think people see the argument through a personal lense, I don't get a vote but would've No last time a d haven't been convinced otherwise yet and I certainly don't think the Yes side have done brilliantly on this thread, just my opinion. 

I think the yes side on this forum or at least one poster has put forward a credible and persuasive argument today. The guy he was 'debating' with just didn't want to hear it because he has closed his mind to an alternative point of view. Unfortunately, I think that is all too common on both sides. 

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I saw his thing about BloJo the other day and was impressed. 

I have folk really close to me who can't help but turn purple with rage at the thought that I might want to weigh up the pros and cons. I can't get my head around that and the two arseholes that pop up on here to insult the other side show you how.low this can descend. But i'm more worried when an otherwise decent poster comes on to describe folk like me as shitebags and doubled down whe. I challenged him. This could get very messy and I hope NS doesn't regret it. 

I’m not a fan of NS at all. This SNP is not what drew me to them at all I can’t think of a single person in that party that I feel anything about. 
For all his faults and whatever else Salmond knew what he was doing. His SNP I felt something for and I’ll be honest I genuinely liked him but he’s now tarnished rightly or wrongly. 
But I feel nothing for this lot. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s nothing wrong with wanting the union to remain. I was a big unionist at one point, a proper herts man if you like,  but I think scotland needs to do things that affect people here.
I get the central belt centralisation argument as well and I’d be all for the islands etc to get more say in how they run things on their own patch. 
Matbe I’m too idealistic about it all. 
Why be afraid of the future. 
 

That's one thing about independence, like you say, should the Islands become independent fro Scotland? Should Edinburgh and the Borders be allowed to separate and join the rest of the UK?

Where does it end?

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's one thing about independence, like you say, should the Islands become independent fro Scotland? Should Edinburgh and the Borders be allowed to separate and join the rest of the UK?

Where does it end?

 

Well Edinburgh voted to stay in the EU so should that be?
Same with the border towns they are historically Scotland. 
Edinburgh is in Scotland and if Scotland voted to leave the U.K. that’s that. 
If the people who live there after a yes vote don’t like it then they leave. 
End of. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's one thing about independence, like you say, should the Islands become independent fro Scotland? Should Edinburgh and the Borders be allowed to separate and join the rest of the UK?

Where does it end?

 

It ends with Scotland becoming independent. Edinburgh, the borders and Shetland aren't signatories to a union and haven't been recognised nations in the last millennium at least.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Scotland is a divided country going by this thread probably always has always will be and definitely will not be united in the future either way win lose or draw people are just different which is the best thing to come out of this discussion 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think the yes side on this forum or at least one poster has put forward a credible and persuasive argument today. The guy he was 'debating' with just didn't want to hear it because he has closed his mind to an alternative point of view. Unfortunately, I think that is all too common on both sides. 

It's a difficult one for me, the argument , if it's the same one I'm thinking of, really failed to answer any questions, a few links that never really supported his argument and the rest was just personal hopefull projections, it didn't really convince me, al be it done in convivial and grown up manner, the other side could've been done in a much more cordial and less confrontational way, but his questions were and are completely justified and still remain unanswered. I'd like questions answered but there are some who, while accusing the No side of having no argument and being all about mud slinging and name calling and goal post moving, are no better themselves which makes discussion virtually impossible. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m not a fan of NS at all. This SNP is not what drew me to them at all I can’t think of a single person in that party that I feel anything about. 
For all his faults and whatever else Salmond knew what he was doing. His SNP I felt something for and I’ll be honest I genuinely liked him but he’s now tarnished rightly or wrongly. 
But I feel nothing for this lot. 

I think Salmond is even more of a reptile than Johnson.  Good politician but a reprehensible man and very, very lucky not to be eating porridge for a long time.

I think NS is actually a decent human being but being human she has faults and her and her party's biggest fault is putting opportunism before national interest.  I know that's what politicians do but she is really good at it. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's a difficult one for me, the argument , if it's the same one I'm thinking of, really failed to answer any questions, a few links that never really supported his argument and the rest was just personal hopefull projections, it didn't really convince me, al be it done in convivial and grown up manner, the other side could've been done in a much more cordial and less confrontational way, but his questions were and are completely justified and still remain unanswered. I'd like questions answered but there are some who, while accusing the No side of having no argument and being all about mud slinging and name calling and goal post moving, are no better themselves which makes discussion virtually impossible. 

You live down south yeah? Do you think you should get a vote? Im assuming you’re a proud Scot. If it happened again that is? 

Genuine question btw it’s not loaded in any way. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's a difficult one for me, the argument , if it's the same one I'm thinking of, really failed to answer any questions, a few links that never really supported his argument and the rest was just personal hopefull projections, it didn't really convince me, al be it done in convivial and grown up manner, the other side could've been done in a much more cordial and less confrontational way, but his questions were and are completely justified and still remain unanswered. I'd like questions answered but there are some who, while accusing the No side of having no argument and being all about mud slinging and name calling and goal post moving, are no better themselves which makes discussion virtually impossible. 

I think we are talking about the same exchange. Much more difficult to do on a forum rather than a blether down the pub. My take was he made a very good fist of it. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think Salmond is even more of a reptile than Johnson.  Good politician but a reprehensible man and very, very lucky not to be eating porridge for a long time.

I think NS is actually a decent human being but being human she has faults and her and her party's biggest fault is putting opportunism before national interest.  I know that's what politicians do but she is really good at it. 

I wasn’t making any judgments about AS as a man. I just meant he had a bit of something about him. I liked that SNP. Probably the last politician I probably liked. 
Who knows if he’s noncey or not now it’s by the by anyway. 

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You live down south yeah? Do you think you should get a vote? Im assuming you’re a proud Scot. If it happened again that is? 

Genuine question btw it’s not loaded in any way. 

I've lived in North West England for 19 years, 5 years in the Peak District then back to Scotland for 8 years then back down to the Lancashire / Cumbria / North Yorkshire area, I do think my wife (from Greenock) and I should get a vote for various reasons in the next referendum if it happens, we will move back to Scotland, probably the Borders, when it's financially viable, all our family live in Scotland, our so  was born in Elgin. We're all as proud to be Scottish as anyone living there I'd argue. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think we are talking about the same exchange. Much more difficult to do on a forum rather than a blether down the pub. My take was he made a very good fist of it. 

For me he's a very good poster o  thus subject but really fails to flesh out his posts with answers, which is difficult considering the lack of answers from the SNP yet, but yes, it'd be far easier done face to face over a couple of pints.

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I wasn’t making any judgments about AS as a man. I just meant he had a bit of something about him. I liked that SNP. Probably the last politician I probably liked. 
Who knows if he’s noncey or not now it’s by the by anyway. 

My contempt goes beyond the stuff he was in court for. He has an engaging personality. Just the sort of personality that reels people in. 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I've lived in North West England for 19 years, 5 years in the Peak District then back to Scotland for 8 years then back down to the Lancashire / Cumbria / North Yorkshire area, I do think my wife (from Greenock) should get a vote for various reasons in the next referendum if it happens, we will move back to Scotland, probably the Borders, when it's financially viable, all our family live in Scotland, our so  was born in Elgin. We're all as proud to be Scottish as anyone living there I'd argue. 

Yeah as much as I’ve dropped the hoose jock jibe at times I accept people care about the place as much as me. We all see it differently. 
I know one of my mates who lives in Oz was really torn with the last vote and he played for Scotland at rugby etc he’s such a proud scot it made me think he should have a say of sorts. He stayed up all night watching the results last time. He would’ve voted No incidentally but says he’ll come home if we vote Yes too. Just wants us to succeed. That’s a proper Scotsman to me. 
I got pulled a while ago by someone about it when I said it’s such an emotional question that I’d mibbe say it’s more to do with a Scottish person anywhere in world than a pole living here. If I lived in Poland and just for arguments sake they had any vote whatsoever about anything with a neighbouring country I just wouldn’t vote. 
Just because it’s such a big decision. 
They would have no idea what they were voting for one way or the other. 
 

[Dawnrazor]

19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It ends with Scotland becoming independent. Edinburgh, the borders and Shetland aren't signatories to a union and haven't been recognised nations in the last millennium at least.

And if say they, in a few years, decided they'd be better off with the UK would say they had the right for a referendum and would you let people from outside Edinburgh and the Borders vote?

[Dawnrazor]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah as much as I’ve dropped the hoose jock jibe at times I accept people care about the place as much as me. We all see it differently. 
I know one of my mates who lives in Oz was really torn with the last vote and he played for Scotland at rugby etc he’s such a proud scot it made me think he should have a say of sorts. He stayed up all night watching the results last time. He would’ve voted No incidentally but says he’ll come home if we vote Yes too. Just wants us to succeed. That’s a proper Scotsman to me. 
I got pulled a while ago by someone about it when I said it’s such an emotional question that I’d mibbe say it’s more to do with a Scottish person anywhere in world than a pole living here. If I lived in Poland and just for arguments sake they had any vote whatsoever about anything with a neighbouring country I just wouldn’t vote. 
Just because it’s such a big decision. 
They would have no idea what they were voting for one way or the other. 
 

It's obviously different living outside Scotland, ironically I have had much more sensible discussions about it with English mates that I have when I've been home, there's a lot less heat about it. I completely agree, and it's good to see you see him as a proud Scot, about your mate in Australia, when we move back I want to be on at least an even footing as anyone in the UK, I want my son to have as much a chance in life as his mates will have diwn here, I don't that's being unpatriotic, it just requires answers.

Maybe Scots living outside Scotland will have a more open mind about voting is why the SNP don't want us to vote, I'm not sure if there been a poll showing the voting intentions of them / us?

But your point about living in Poland and not voting on such a big subject is one I undestand and sympathies with.

Like a foreign student or worker getting the vote in a referendum while knowing they'll leave in a few years and us not getting the vote knowing that we will move back in a few years.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's obviously different living outside Scotland, ironically I have had much more sensible discussions about it with English mates that I have when I've been home, there's a lot less heat about it. I completely agree, and it's good to see you see him as a proud Scot, about your mate in Australia, when we move back I want to be on at least an even footing as anyone in the UK, I want my son to have as much a chance in life as his mates will have diwn here, I don't that's being unpatriotic, it just requires answers.

He’s a proper proud Scotsman. He was messaging me constantly before the last one.  His last message before the vote was dead emotional and it makes me think about him thousands of miles away baw deep and some person here with no real ties who can and might just vote one way or the other then leave and care nothing. My mate was in turmoil at the other side of the planet  

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by jack D and coke

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

. My mate was in turmoil at the other side of the planet  

 

We were in turmoil on the other side of the Tweed😅

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

We were in turmoil on the other side of the Tweed😅

Well this is my point.
It’s such an emotional thing. it really is…

Letting people who don’t really get it vote I’m not sure I’m all on board with. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Well this is my point.
It’s such an emotional thing. it really is…

Letting people who don’t really get it vote I’m not sure I’m all on board with. 

Would you allow Scots living abroad a vote?

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Would you allow Scots living abroad a vote?

I don’t know it’s such a huge decision.

It’s so emotional. 

It’s hard to quantify what makes the qualification. 

[Unknown user]

30 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

And if say they, in a few years, decided they'd be better off with the UK would say they had the right for a referendum and would you let people from outside Edinburgh and the Borders vote?

 

It's not a parallel, I don't really care TBH 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not a parallel, I don't really care TBH 

Humour me, would you?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Humour me, would you?

It's not a parallel.

When did Edinburgh enter a union with Scotland?

How old is Shetland's distinct legal system?

When was the borders an established independent nation?

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

It's not a parallel.

When did Edinburgh enter a union with Scotland?

How old is Shetland's distinct legal system?

When was the borders an established independent nation?

I’ve had these bonkers conversations with people on twitter. Talking of balkanisation of Scotland. 
Borders might be silly but they are historical and there’s not many countries more historical than Scotland. 
We vote yes and you don’t like it?
Rwanda for you😀

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Slippery slope, mate. 

 

You can’t quantify Scottishness. Unless it’s a vote for current legal residents at the time of the referendum then you devalue its legitimacy.

It’s not slippery slope mate I’m not being racist or I’m not trying to be

Scotland and England parting ways is not a vote for anyone who doesn’t know what it really means imo. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

In the 15 years I lived abroad, I certainly wouldn’t have expected one.

But see id want someone like you to have one. I don’t know what the qualifications might be. You were born and bred here. You care. 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, jonesy said:

Neither of my sons were born here. Nor my wife, mother, either grandmother and one of my grandfathers. They care(d) about Scotland and it’s future. I also know a few Scots who have barely left Scotland in their puff who wouldn’t know the union from an onion.
 

Surely we should be proud that folk who have moved to our wee bit of an island at the arse end of the Eurasian landmass are invested enough in its future to get their arses onto a voters’ roll and head to the ballot box, no matter which box they put their cross in?

No.

I might disagree with you about anything whether it’s some hearts signings or yes or no in a Indyref but I know you come from here and you care as much as me. 
 

[Stanley_]

I live in England and would vote yes in a referendum but I'm 100% against giving a vote to Scottish people who don't live in Scotland. The vote should only be for people living in Scotland, regardless of nationality. It's not a good route to go down to say it should be about people who were born in Scotland. If we become independent, then it affects everyone who lives in the country. Nationality shouldn't be part of this at all.