Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jack D and coke]

It’s bonfire season for the dinosaurs over there so next time I see it I’ll post👍🏼

[i wish jj was my dad]

32 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I’m surprised too 

No the Union has no obligation to put forward any case AS they are not the ones demanding independence . It’s up to yes to convince people to leave the status quo . 

Don't you think it might be sensible to advance a positive case for staying rather than just saying we are too wee, daft and pathetic to get on OK outwith the UK? 

 

What we have is patently not working and I have zero confidence that it is going to get better without a radical change in direction. 

 

The floor is all yours.....

[frankblack]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

Don't you think it might be sensible to advance a positive case for staying rather than just saying we are too wee, daft and pathetic to get on OK outwith the UK? 

 

What we have is patently not working and I have zero confidence that it is going to get better without a radical change in direction. 

 

The floor is all yours.....

 

No, its actually the other way where we need a convincing costed plan for leaving to ensure we won't make ourselves poorer.

[Largo]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You think these people will be in favour of a yes vote? 

No I don't think  they will support any vote against the Union , as neither would I but we all live in a democracy so the accusation of   comments by Orangemen of NI  & threats of burning the Saltire & going  paramilitary are nonsense.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Don't you think it might be sensible to advance a positive case for staying rather than just saying we are too wee, daft and pathetic to get on OK outwith the UK? 

 

What we have is patently not working and I have zero confidence that it is going to get better without a radical change in direction. 

 

The floor is all yours.....

Sorry I’m not interested one way or another which way the vote goes . I have said time and again I’m not getting embroiled in any heated debates about this issue . If people are passionate either side of the argument they can put forward the arguments . I can see pros and cons on both sides , however this time I shall probably vote No . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No, its actually the other way where we need a convincing costed plan for leaving to ensure we won't make ourselves poorer.

I agree with this . It’s the Yes who want to leave so they need to convince others , like me that it’s worth it in every way . I do agree with the principle of a country making its own decisions though . 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Largo said:

No I don't think  they will support any vote against the Union , as neither would I but we all live in a democracy so the accusation of   comments by Orangemen of NI  & threats of burning the Saltire & going  paramilitary are nonsense.

I’ve seen pics of saltires next to Irish flags and pics of sinn fein politicians on their huge pallet bonfires. I wouldn’t make that up. 
I’ll post them next time I see it.
I don’t know anything about the paramilitary stuff. 

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Largo said:

No I don't think  they will support any vote against the Union , as neither would I but we all live in a democracy so the accusation of   comments by Orangemen of NI  & threats of burning the Saltire & going  paramilitary are nonsense.

 

It's not an accusation, it's a matter of record

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Sorry I’m not interested one way or another which way the vote goes . I have said time and again I’m not getting embroiled in any heated debates about this issue . If people are passionate either side of the argument they can put forward the arguments . I can see pros and cons on both sides , however this time I shall probably vote No . 

I am interested and it does matter to me because I want the country to be as prosperous and equitable as it can be for my daughter and everyone else's kids. And I don't think we need to fall out with each other to understand the pros and cons but we do need to hear both sides. Remain was ridiculously complacent and allowed us to sleepwalk into brexit and we are just starting to feel the effects of that. 

If the strategy of better together #2 is to post daft gifs and slag off Elsie Murrell rather than put forward a constructive case then they will lose this time. They are already hamstrung by who is currently occupying No. 10. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I am interested and it does matter to me because I want the country to be as prosperous and equitable as it can be for my daughter and everyone else's kids. And I don't think we need to fall out with each other to understand the pros and cons but we do need to hear both sides. Remain was ridiculously complacent and allowed us to sleepwalk into brexit and we are just starting to feel the effects of that. 

If the strategy of better together #2 is to post daft gifs and slag off Elsie Murrell rather than put forward a constructive case then they will lose this time. They are already hamstrung by who is currently occupying No. 10. 

The economy is my main concern , unlike the last time when I was selfish and didn’t give a deck about that issue . For me it was Indy at all costs . But now I’m thinking less selfishly and thinking of how Indy will impact me but others too . The economic argument has to be laid out clearly . I await the papers regarding that issue . 

[Largo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not an accusation, it's a matter of record

I think you'll  find the Orange Order in Northern Ireland have never placed Scottish flags on bonfires and are not involved in any paramilitary organisations. 

 

 

[Unknown user]

22 minutes ago, Largo said:

🤣🤣 Sure it was 👍

 

You can believe me or not, I couldn't GAF mate. But one of us knows for a fact what I've seen and the other one's a roaster for thinking he does.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Largo said:

I think you'll  find the Orange Order in Northern Ireland have never placed Scottish flags on bonfires and are not involved in any paramilitary organisations. 

 

 

That must be why I specifically said the orange order in Scotland then eh?

[Largo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

You can believe me or not, I couldn't GAF mate. But one of us knows for a fact what I've seen and the other one's a roaster for thinking he does.

That settles that then, ever thought of entering politics 🙄

[Unknown user]

Just now, Largo said:

That settles that then, ever thought of entering politics 🙄

 

Again, I don't care if you're convinced, I'm just making sure everyone else is in no doubt that I know what I saw.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

16 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve seen pics of saltires next to Irish flags and pics of sinn fein politicians on their huge pallet bonfires. I wouldn’t make that up. 
I’ll post them next time I see it.
I don’t know anything about the paramilitary stuff. 

Most bands have someone carrying a Saltire which is why I think you're reading some BS.

[Largo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

That must be why I specifically said the orange order in Scotland then eh?

My apologies, I answering more than yourself. But I again will say that no spokesman of the Orange Order in Scotland would speak of any involvement in any paramilitary organisation .

 

I'm out after this post, people need to understand the difference between neds than making accusations against organisations .

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Most bands have someone carrying a Saltire which is why I think you're reading some BS.

How does he read a photo wrong?

[Largo]

Just now, Smithee said:

How does he read a photo wrong?

Simple solution , attach the photo or it's bullshit 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Largo said:

My apologies, I answering more than yourself. But I again will say that no spokesman of the Orange Order in Scotland would speak of any involvement in any paramilitary organisation .

 

I'm out after this post, people need to understand the difference between neds than making accusations against organisations .

 

I didn't say that, I said one of the main dudes saying they'd probably go paramilitary in the event of Scottish independence.

 

I saw it with my own eyes, deal with it 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

I didn't say that, I said one of the main dudes saying they'd probably go paramilitary in the event of Scottish independence.

 

I saw it with my own eyes, deal with it 

This happened in the 1990s. From memory, the Orange Order Grand Master in Scotland said something along the lines you are saying. His surname was Ramsey IIRC. He havered a lot of shite from memory.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

How does he read a photo wrong?

Well, if it is only a photo then it will be even more wrong. Flags that are going to be burnt are not put on a bonfire until just before it is lit.

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

This happened in the 1990s. From memory, the Orange Order Grand Master in Scotland said something along the lines you are saying. His surname was Ramsey IIRC. He havered a lot of shite from memory.

Cheers that sounds about right

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Well, if it is only a photo then it will be even more wrong. Flags that are going to be burnt are not put on a bonfire until just before it is lit.

I'll unashamedly bow to your superior knowledge of flag burning!

[i wish jj was my dad]

31 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The economy is my main concern , unlike the last time when I was selfish and didn’t give a deck about that issue . For me it was Indy at all costs . But now I’m thinking less selfishly and thinking of how Indy will impact me but others too . The economic argument has to be laid out clearly . I await the papers regarding that issue . 

So you are interested? I definitely am and I expect both sides to set out a clear and coherent argument. The less demonising of the other side or personalities the better. Tough with a criminal at no 10 I know but if we do vote yes we need to get on with our neighbours. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

So you are interested? I definitely am and I expect both sides to set out a clear and coherent argument. The less demonising of the other side or personalities the better. Tough with a criminal at no 10 I know but if we do vote yes we need to get on with our neighbours. 

Yes but am not too optimistic about what the Yes economic argument I’ll be . I’ve never had an issue with our neighbours down south , apart from football rivalry . When I’m in England or Wales I don’t really notice much difference between us really . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

So you are interested? I definitely am and I expect both sides to set out a clear and coherent argument. The less demonising of the other side or personalities the better. Tough with a criminal at no 10 I know but if we do vote yes we need to get on with our neighbours. 

I saw this on twitter . How can this be affordable in the Long run ? I don’t disagree with it , just asking about affordability ? 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I saw this on twitter . How can this be affordable in the Long run ? I don’t disagree with it , just asking about affordability ?

 

 

I have no idea. I'm no economist but if the UK is the great country it makes itself out to be it should at least match the EU average. We certainly work hard enough. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

19 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes but am not too optimistic about what the Yes economic argument I’ll be . I’ve never had an issue with our neighbours down south , apart from football rivalry . When I’m in England or Wales I don’t really notice much difference between us really . 

I do notice a very big difference between up here and south of England. We are very different countries with very different outlooks. 

[dobmisterdobster]

35 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I do notice a very big difference between up here and south of England. We are very different countries with very different outlooks. 

 

People from New Jersey and South Carolina are very different. Doesn't mean separatism is the answer.

[i wish jj was my dad]

15 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

People from New Jersey and South Carolina are very different. Doesn't mean separatism is the answer.

Maybe. But I was answering a point which suggested there wasn't much of a difference. I disagree. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Maybe. But I was answering a point which suggested there wasn't much of a difference. I disagree. 

What would you say the differences are?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I saw this on twitter . How can this be affordable in the Long run ? I don’t disagree with it , just asking about affordability ? 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your question should be how is it affordable to the average EU country but not to one of the richest countries in the world?

 

The answer is Priorities.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Your question should be how is it affordable to the average EU country but not to one of the richest countries in the world?

 

The answer is Priorities.

Yes I know that . So what budget gets cut ? 

[Unknown user]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I know that . So what budget gets cut ? 

What do you mean? There isn't a budget to cut.

We get to start with a blank slate, we can set up government bodies and budgets that Scotland needs. We don't need a ministry for Brexit ****ing opportunities, we don't need HS2, we don't need to increase defence spending by tens of billions just to rattle a sabre and satisfy another group of Tories in the trough.

 

We treat people right, we get the infrastructure right, then we fit in the rest.

 

Human beings' day to day wellbeing and happiness isn't at the bottom of the list, it's at the top, or what's a government for?

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What would you say the differences are?

In the areas I am familiar with there is definitely a sense of little englander. Much less tolerant of immigration and foreigners generally and that was what drove their brexit vote.  There is a perception that they subsidise the RUK. They resent paying taxes and would happily cut back on public services.

The final part is the most telling for me. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

What do you mean? There isn't a budget to cut.

We get to start with a blank slate, we can set up government bodies and budgets that Scotland needs. We don't need a ministry for Brexit ****ing opportunities, we don't need HS2, we don't need to increase defence spending by tens of billions just to rattle a sabre and satisfy another group of Tories in the trough.

 

We treat people right, we get the infrastructure right, then we fit in the rest.

 

Human beings' day to day wellbeing and happiness isn't at the bottom of the list, it's at the top, or what's a government for?

Pretty much what I want to see. 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

 

The key benefit is standard of living.

 

All the benefits of the UK are the shared costs and benefits.  Scotland getting its deficit propped up by the rest of the UK, getting the vaccine due to UK efforts, and having shared wealth, state pension, social security system.  It has yet to be seen how Scotland would afford those because we have no costed plan to review.

 

Do your research.

 

Here are some negatives:

• Increased cost on trade to Scottish Business by international border between Scotland and England: https://www.economicsobservatory.com/how-might-scottish-independence-affect-the-costs-of-international-trade

• https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit: 

  • The combination of independence and Brexit would reduce Scotland’s income per capita by between 6.3 per cent and 8.7 per cent in the long-run, a new study from the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) shows. 

  • The economic hit from the two events is equivalent to an income loss of between £2,000 and £2,800 per person every year, economists estimate. The study Disunited Kingdom? Brexit, Trade and Scottish Independencepublished today by the LSE’s Centre for Economic Performance, analyses the impact on Scotland’s economy of potential changes in trade barriers resulting from Brexit and Scottish independence.  

 

What are the costed benefits of Scotland being independent?  That is what you need to compare like with like.   There are clearly huge holes or the SNP would have published them since 2014? As soon as they are forced into it then independent scrutiny will show them to be reckless halfwits who would throw the economy under a bus to get one over the English.

 

I haven't even looked into currency, cost of borrowing, managing debt inherited from UK etc.

The key benefit is standard of living? So we're allegedly 9% worse off today than last year. Real terms will be closer to 15%. 

 

Scotland CANNOT run a deficit. Therefore Scotland is not being propped up by anyone. The vaccine argument is a non starter. Vaccines were freely available on the open market to all countries. 

 

@pablo kindly posted the LSE stuff the other night. The key phrase from their report is on page 11. They've no idea of potential border costs. 

Brexit? 😂😂😂

Trying to use Brexit as an argument highlights the paucity of positives. Brexit, which Scots didn't vote for, has made every single UK citizen considerably worse off.

Do the only costed 'benefit' to Scotland from the union since the 2014 vow is being 9% worse off due to inflation, a further £2000 worse off thanks to Brexit, oh and by the way you've got no freedom of movement. 

 

So to summarise there's no positives to remaining in the Union? 

 

Final point if you genuinely think the whole independence movement is built on getting one over England then I'm afraid this thread is possibly not for you. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

In the areas I am familiar with there is definitely a sense of little englander. Much less tolerant of immigration and foreigners generally and that was what drove their brexit vote.  There is a perception that they subsidise the RUK. They resent paying taxes and would happily cut back on public services.

The final part is the most telling for me. 

What areas are you talking about?

I get some of what you say but have to admit it's disproportionately bad around here, I've a couple of mated that live in Rotherham and Keighley and they have a very different outlook, but I think I would have too living there from what I've seen!

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What areas are you talking about?

I get some of what you say but have to admit it's disproportionately bad around here, I've a couple of mated that live in Rotherham and Keighley and they have a very different outlook, but I think I would have too living there from what I've seen!

 

Norfolk. 

I appreciate they have different experiences from me but we have to avoid politics particularly when they regale Thatcher

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s days old anyway and what does that add? Where does it take any debate? 
Honestly what a brain cripple. 

It doesn't take the debate anywhere but we're not surprised. All it does is show up the aggressive agenda the British state and the media have against Scotland and its people. They want to drive it through the SNP but are too stupid to realise that there are other sources for the more discerning.

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The key benefit is standard of living? So we're allegedly 9% worse off today than last year. Real terms will be closer to 15%. 

 

Scotland CANNOT run a deficit. Therefore Scotland is not being propped up by anyone. The vaccine argument is a non starter. Vaccines were freely available on the open market to all countries. 

 

@pablo kindly posted the LSE stuff the other night. The key phrase from their report is on page 11. They've no idea of potential border costs. 

Brexit? 😂😂😂

Trying to use Brexit as an argument highlights the paucity of positives. Brexit, which Scots didn't vote for, has made every single UK citizen considerably worse off.

Do the only costed 'benefit' to Scotland from the union since the 2014 vow is being 9% worse off due to inflation, a further £2000 worse off thanks to Brexit, oh and by the way you've got no freedom of movement. 

 

Complete hysterical nonsense.

 

Brexit has happened and whether you like it or not it makes the argument for independence harder to sell.

 

The links I presented had economic experts estimating that the average person in Scotland will be £2000 per year worse off than the rest of the UK.

 

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So to summarise there's no positives to remaining in the Union? 

 

Final point if you genuinely think the whole independence movement is built on getting one over England then I'm afraid this thread is possibly not for you. 

 

I gave you a number.  How can Scotland afford the same services including the NHS, state pension, and welfare state?

 

£2000 per year worse off per person on average after indy according to the economic experts.  That is a pretty good reason to stay, with no economic positives for independence.

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

.

Brexit has happened and whether you like it or not it makes the argument for independence harder to sell.

 

 

Aside from your other points the issue I want to pick up is what you said about Brexit which is just not true. 

Ms Sturgeon would have no chance of gaining sufficient support for a Referendum if brexit didn't happen. And speaking personally I am much more likely to vote for independence because of brexit. I know others who feel the same. 

From what I am seeing you will dismiss any arguments that contradict your view which is fair enough but you can't make sweeping statements that are just not true and expect to be taken seriously. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Complete hysterical nonsense.

 

Brexit has happened and whether you like it or not it makes the argument for independence harder to sell.

 

The links I presented had economic experts estimating that the average person in Scotland will be £2000 per year worse off than the rest of the UK.

 

 

I gave you a number.  How can Scotland afford the same services including the NHS, state pension, and welfare state?

 

£2000 per year worse off per person on average after indy according to the economic experts.  That is a pretty good reason to stay, with no economic positives for independence.

Frank only one of us is getting hysterical. It's not me.

 

Brexit has happened. Thanks for pointing that out. Allow me to remind you that Brexit and all its financial impacts are a direct result of Scotland being in the Union. 

Remember the only way we could stay in the EU was to vote no? 

 

Scotland will afford its services and pensions the same way every country in the world does. Taxation and spending. How else did you think they'd do it?

 

The £2000 number is speculative. The authors cleverly fold brexit benefits ( a quantifiable Tory cluster-**** in any man's language) into a border cost they can't quantify (page 11 on the report) to fire up the GERS calculator to get a nice round number of £2000. Sound. 

If you're going to discuss benefits of remaining in the Union I'd probably give the economy a wide berth as its not a strong argument. 

[frankblack]

27 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Aside from your other points the issue I want to pick up is what you said about Brexit which is just not true. 

Ms Sturgeon would have no chance of gaining sufficient support for a Referendum if brexit didn't happen. And speaking personally I am much more likely to vote for independence because of brexit. I know others who feel the same. 

From what I am seeing you will dismiss any arguments that contradict your view which is fair enough but you can't make sweeping statements that are just not true and expect to be taken seriously. 

 

So your solution to Brexit is to vote to not only be out of the EU but separate from the rest of the UK.

 

I am curious how you can possibly think that doesn't make you worse off?

 

Nobody in their right mind would vote to be £2000 per year worse off on average.

[frankblack]

29 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Frank only one of us is getting hysterical. It's not me.

 

Brexit has happened. Thanks for pointing that out. Allow me to remind you that Brexit and all its financial impacts are a direct result of Scotland being in the Union. 

Remember the only way we could stay in the EU was to vote no? 

 

Scotland will afford its services and pensions the same way every country in the world does. Taxation and spending. How else did you think they'd do it?

 

The £2000 number is speculative. The authors cleverly fold brexit benefits ( a quantifiable Tory cluster-**** in any man's language) into a border cost they can't quantify (page 11 on the report) to fire up the GERS calculator to get a nice round number of £2000. Sound. 

If you're going to discuss benefits of remaining in the Union I'd probably give the economy a wide berth as its not a strong argument. 

 

Complete drivel.  Utter nonsense based on straw clutching at its best.

 

You provide the benefits of independence.  I'll trust the economics experts over the fantasists.

[Lord Montpelier]

7 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Looks like Ms Murrell  had a hard night 

Her achillies heel will be her dismissive arrogance. It will catch up with her. 

[The Mighty Thor]

 

18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So your solution to Brexit is to vote to not only be out of the EU but separate from the rest of the UK.

 

I am curious how you can possibly think that doesn't make you worse off?

 

Nobody in their right mind would vote to be £2000 per year worse off on average.

They did. They voted for Brexit in their droves based on lies. 

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Complete drivel.  Utter nonsense based on straw clutching at its best.

 

You provide the benefits of independence.  I'll trust the economics experts over the fantasists.

You'll trust the experts like the ones that told you to vote no to stay in the EU, that the banks would leave, that the supermarkets would leave, that we'd be worse off. 

 

Yet here we are. Out of Europe. 9% worse off than last year and looking at a £2000 Brexit shaped hole in our pockets. 

 

That's not ifs, buts and maybes. That's what being hitched to Johnsons wagon gets you. 

 

How is that better together?

Edited July 3, 2022 by The Mighty Thor

[i wish jj was my dad]

26 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So your solution to Brexit is to vote to not only be out of the EU but separate from the rest of the UK.

 

I am curious how you can possibly think that doesn't make you worse off?

 

Nobody in their right mind would vote to be £2000 per year worse off on average.

It isn't a solution. It's a mitigation. Brexit was nothing more than a self inflicted wound cutting us off from our key trading partners. An independent Scotland might be able to claw some of that back and by either getting back in or negotiating a new agreement. We aren't UK so the negotiations would be a dawn sight more cordial than they were with WM.

Hopefully the rUK wouldn't be stupid or callous enough to shut the door on the Scottish border either. If they did that is on them and we are absolutely better off out-of it. 

As for your £2k per person that's very speculative. Others far more clued up than me are even more sceptical than I am. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

6 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

It isn't a solution. It's a mitigation. Brexit was nothing more than a self inflicted wound cutting us off from our key trading partners. An independent Scotland might be able to claw some of that back and by either getting back in or negotiating a new agreement. We aren't UK so the negotiations would be a dawn sight more cordial than they were with WM.

Hopefully the rUK wouldn't be stupid or callous enough to shut the door on the Scottish border either. If they did that is on them and we are absolutely better off out-of it. 

As for your £2k per person that's very speculative. Others far more clued up than me are even more sceptical than I am. 

Would you be happy to take on the Euro as currency? Not a loaded question, genuinely interested. My gut feeling without giving it much though is that I wouldn’t