Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I'd change the process. 

 

- each side submits answers and evidence to a list of pre agreed key questions to an independent auditor prior to any referendum (for example, what is your expected retirement age to achieve full pension by 2050)

 

- the auditor considers this and gives an opinion (simple stuff , extremely likely through to extremely unlikely for example)

 

- that opinion is mailed to the electorate in very simple terms prior to any referendum for consideration

 

Need to establish baseline and transparency on both sides to allow for an informed electorate. All bluster and bs otherwise. 

 

 

That happens every 5 years though.

Party manifestos .

An independent auditor can only look at projections to 2050 and give an opinion.

There are no guarantees as part of the Union or independent.

Just as there is no guarentee of failure under the union or independent.

 

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, Ked said:

You have to remember that there is powerful forces against independence though and you should try and glean the facts yourself.

Smithee argues the case all the time.

Being effective in an argument doesn't always mean that it means it's right.

Especially these days you only need to look at some of the balloons who have been in power.

People who give reasons for not being independent is what you should look at.

It started last time that we would have to leave the EU and that would mean a lesser deal than we had as part of the UK....

Then it's the currency a complete red herring.

Trade barriers no doubt would take some negotiations ....

What is it for you that holds you back from yes?

"Being effective in an argument doesn't always mean it's right"

I agree, for both sides.

 

"What is it for you that holds you back from yes?"

The lack of answers that aren't easily argued against from the SNP, like currency, it's ok for you and others saying don't worry and it doesn't matter, but to millions of people it does matter, and for every time someone says it doesn't matter, someone argues it does, the does side wins it for me just now. Someone said a few days ago that there are a few options out there and the SNP need to nail their colours to a mast and tell us, that would end that one.

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

All complete bollocks you grasped from nationalist grouos.

 

The SNP have published zero policies to determine how viable their independence strategy is.

 

Considering they were supposed to be ready in 2014 that suggests they don't have a viable plan they are willing to allow to be scrutinised.  Worrying.

You are wrong Frank .

I definitely do not grasp any of my postings from snp groups.

And I fact checked myself on energy and posted about the snp spin.

 

What viable plan?

Every thing you have highlighted as a disaster if we go independent I think I've countered.

Although tbf I get it that the SNP should show the mechanics this really would only begin to happen after they were mandated.

Going independent would need England to work with us for transition.

In the same way the UK and the EU did.

There would be political gesturing from radicals etc etc but the strategy you want to hear I don't think can be clearly laid out.

Only the concerns can be answered.

Let's be honest though you wouldn't vote Yes even though you are only citing vaguely for a strategy.

When it's broken down about the economy energy pensions etc there's nothing to fear.

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

"Being effective in an argument doesn't always mean it's right"

I agree, for both sides.

 

"What is it for you that holds you back from yes?"

The lack of answers that aren't easily argued against from the SNP, like currency, it's ok for you and others saying don't worry and it doesn't matter, but to millions of people it does matter, and for every time someone says it doesn't matter, someone argues it does, the does side wins it for me just now. Someone said a few days ago that there are a few options out there and the SNP need to nail their colours to a mast and tell us, that would end that one.

I do worry mate.

But honestly currency is a total red herring .

I can post a few links if you'd like.

And from those not associated with the independent movement.

 

[Dawnrazor]

28 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

 

As far as I can see from the posts against independence it's a lot to do with fear .I don't mean cowardly but that somehow everything will stop working.

 

Of course it's fear, considering what the SNP are asking people to do I think they deserve sound, well reasoned, clear and unequivocal answers.

I don't think No voters are daft enough to think "everything will stop working" give them some credit, but they have genuine worries about all the things that are flippantly dismissed as "a red herring".

For me there are legitimate questions that  need answered by the SNP, and then explained, currency being one.

Why haven't the SNP got your confidence over currency? Why haven't they sorted this one out so close to another vote?

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, Ked said:

I do worry mate.

But honestly currency is a total red herring .

I can post a few links if you'd like.

And from those not associated with the independent movement.

 

So what currency will  be in pockets and bank accounts?

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, Ked said:

You are wrong Frank .

I definitely do not grasp any of my postings from snp groups.

And I fact checked myself on energy and posted about the snp spin.

 

What viable plan?

Every thing you have highlighted as a disaster if we go independent I think I've countered.

Although tbf I get it that the SNP should show the mechanics this really would only begin to happen after they were mandated.

Going independent would need England to work with us for transition.

In the same way the UK and the EU did.

There would be political gesturing from radicals etc etc but the strategy you want to hear I don't think can be clearly laid out.

Only the concerns can be answered.

Let's be honest though you wouldn't vote Yes even though you are only citing vaguely for a strategy.

When it's broken down about the economy energy pensions etc there's nothing to fear.

 

You have made up your own utopian solution which counters no arguments because the fact remains the SNP have had since 2014 to answer the big failings in their campaign but haven't.

 

I'm not interested in what you believe might happen - I want the SNP to commit to telling us so independent experts can scrutinise it.

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

........ counters no arguments because the fact remains the SNP have had since 2014 to answer the big failings in their campaign but haven't.

 

I'm not interested in what you believe might happen - I want the SNP to commit to telling us so independent experts can scrutinise it.

This is pretty much where I'm at.

It only takes the SNP to set out the answers that are continually asked, they obviously must know what are peoples worries, and if the arguments are sound and reasonable, that'll give people the very reason to vote Yes, I honestly can't believe that they haven't by now.

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So what currency will  be in pockets and bank accounts?

The pound the euro we could use the yen if we wanted.

It's not flippancy that's the fact.

No one can stop us using the one we already have in our pockets.

No one can tell us the money we have in our banks would hold the same value.

It's legal tender .

To declare it illegal in Scotland would be to declare it illegal .

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Ked said:

The pound the euro we could use the yen if we wanted.

It's not flippancy that's the fact.

No one can stop us using the one we already have in our pockets.

No one can tell us the money we have in our banks would hold the same value.

It's legal tender .

To declare it illegal in Scotland would be to declare it illegal .

 

 

So what one is it? The Scottish pound? Pound Sterling? 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Just to go back a bit on energy.

Scotland produced enough renewable energy in 2021 to power Scottish homes for 3 years.

However the claims made by SG that we used 100% renewables to power Scotland are not correct and have not been corrected on much of the SG literature on this subject which is annoying .

A fact check shows we use around 60% from renewables so I apologise for my 90% claim.

We also to my surprise used 30% from nuclear and the remainder from fossil fuels oil gas.

So apologies to Frank on the nuclear one.

But the overall picture is that we can sustain ourselves energy wise.

The SG /SNP needs to be really careful and transparent to put the case for independence.

 

Scotland sends enough power over the border every single day (after we power ourselves) to keep the lights on in England for millions of homes. That’s every single day. There is an official site where you can look at it I don’t have it at hand but it’s millions of homes. England also needs Welsh power to keep all their lights on. 
I’m not saying that’s all we need but the energy things baffles me like we’re told England won’t want our energy. The grids are all connected maybe we can go see if Germany wants it as they’re in a bit of a pickle the now. 
As for giving answers I find that it’s not answers the No side want to convince them. Because I don’t believe they ever could be. Its just anything you can suggest that they can then try ridicule. 
The UK guaranteed us plenty only 8 years ago and it’s down the kazi but the snp must literally predict the future for 30 years.

Youve posted great stuff last couple of days imo pal. 
 

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You have made up your own utopian solution which counters no arguments because the fact remains the SNP have had since 2014 to answer the big failings in their campaign but haven't.

 

I'm not interested in what you believe might happen - I want the SNP to commit to telling us so independent experts can scrutinise it.

Utopian solution?

So because I think that Scotland a country that's had a legal system for hundreds of years a political input and involvement in an Empire that covered the world.

That's had medical science that's led the world.

And much much more .

You think it's utopian that a country with all that experience abundance of wealth to govern itself.

Frank you don't want answers .

You made up your mind and when it's pointed out that it will be nothing like the disaster you claim you resort to the unicorn utopian stuff.

Enjoy your beer buddy

[The Mighty Thor]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You have made up your own utopian solution which counters no arguments because the fact remains the SNP have had since 2014 to answer the big failings in their campaign but haven't.

 

I'm not interested in what you believe might happen - I want the SNP to commit to telling us so independent experts can scrutinise it.

Given you're a man who is all about the facts and figures Frank, any word on those benefits of being in the Union? Even the ones since 2014 would be fine.

 

Ta. 

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So what one is it? The Scottish pound? Pound Sterling? 

 

Here buddy there's plenty of literature out there.

And surprisingly lots of conservative cases for independence.

But better me giving you this link.

Let me know what you think

 

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Given you're a man who is all about the facts and figures Frank, any word on those benefits of being in the Union? Even the ones since 2014 would be fine.

 

Ta. 

 

Try reversing that argument with the facts the SNP have committed to.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

Here buddy there's plenty of literature out there.

And surprisingly lots of conservative cases for independence.

But better me giving you this link.

Let me know what you think

 

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

 

Which one have the SNP committed to since 2014?

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Ked said:

Here buddy there's plenty of literature out there.

And surprisingly lots of conservative cases for independence.

But better me giving you this link.

Let me know what you think

 

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

The article says Scotland could continue to use Sterling but this has been discounted already, so how accurate is the rest of the article if they got it wrong in pretty much the first paragraph?

And if it was so easy, why haven't the SNP confirmed what it'll use bu now, 8 years after the first referendum ans so close to the, if it happens, next one? Surley you can see peoples concern over this?

[Ked]

12 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Scotland sends enough power over the border every single day (after we power ourselves) to keep the lights on in England for millions of homes. That’s every single day. There is an official site where you can look at it I don’t have it at hand but it’s millions of homes. England also needs Welsh power to keep all their lights on. 
I’m not saying that’s all we need but the energy things baffles me like we’re told England won’t want our energy. The grids are all connected maybe we can go see if Germany wants it as they’re in a bit of a pickle the now. 
As for giving answers I find that it’s not answers the No side want to convince them. Because I don’t believe they ever could be. Its just anything you can suggest that they can then try ridicule. 
The UK guaranteed us plenty only 8 years ago and it’s down the kazi but the snp must literally predict the future for 30 years.

Youve posted great stuff last couple of days imo pal. 
 

It did amaze me when energy was cited buddy.

It did annoy me that the SG/SNP felt they had to put spin on that.

But our position is very strong.

And going forward actuall could be rosey.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Which one have the SNP committed to since 2014?

Tbf from where I am sitting you have been blown out the water. I would concentrate on your beer for the rest of the night. 

[Dawnrazor]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

Here buddy there's plenty of literature out there.

And surprisingly lots of conservative cases for independence.

But better me giving you this link.

Let me know what you think

 

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-would-the-currency-options-be-for-an-independent-scotland

Further reading of that article really doesn't do the Yes cause any good, there must be other one more conclusive?

[Ked]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Which one have the SNP committed to since 2014?

The thing is there's politics at play .

One of the options is an agreed monetary union.

So Sturgeon let's say puts this forward as the preferred option.

Guess what London says .

No way.

If we vote yes then we can use the pound officially if we negotiate or we use it unofficially.

Loads of countries do both.

 

 

It's a red herring .

[Ked]

10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Further reading of that article really doesn't do the Yes cause any good, there must be other one more conclusive?

In what way.

I'm assuming it's to do with our current internal economy?

 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Tbf from where I am sitting you have been blown out the water. I would concentrate on your beer for the rest of the night. 

 

Shite patter, mate.  Been home for a couple of hours.

 

Are you running out of straws to clutch?

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

In what way.

 

Overall really, it's all just a bit wooly, it's all ifs and butts. What we need is a positive definitive statement from the SNP, but I asked you earlier, can you see why people are worried about this? It could all so easily put to bed if it was as easy as you suggest, why do you think the SNP didn't answer this last time and still haven't this time considering it generates so my uncertainty and  negativity?

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

In other words, you vote for the party, not the candidate? Fair play, I think many, if not most, do. But it doesn't do any harm to check out a candidate's voting record on certain matters before dismissing them because of the colour of their rosette, surely?

I voted for the person not the party . It’s Joanna cherry 🍒! 

4 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Ignoring extremism will take everyone to a place they don't want to be. Needs calling out and stamped out when it is seen. 

Exactly . He’s went all Colonel Kurtz 

4 hours ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

Meh. He's not a bully, just an occasional slaver, which is his right.

😂😂😂

3 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

He probably wouldn't but there are enough nutters on both sides of the debate who wouldn't need much encouragement. For what it's worth I think we are more likely to see more of the scenes like those you posted rather than paramilitary violence. Still very, very unpleasant and both sides need to be really mindful of the hand grenades they are lobbing at the hard of thinking

You’d right it could easily descend into NI territory 

2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I never said it was. I voted for it as I thought it would hasten independence. I wish I didn't as it was a bit foolish and under estimated the stupidity of it all!

 

Oh dear ! 

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm dreading the future under an independent  SNP government who have failed at everything the are in charge of.

Aye but remember when we get Indy the SNP will disband and all of a sudden a new breed of committing and capable MPs will suddenly appear ! ( Indy supporters argument ) 

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

All complete bollocks you grasped from nationalist grouos.

 

The SNP have published zero policies to determine how viable their independence strategy is.

 

Considering they were supposed to be ready in 2014 that suggests they don't have a viable plan they are willing to allow to be scrutinised.  Worrying.

They don’t have a viable plan 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, Ked said:

The thing is there's politics at play .

One of the options is an agreed monetary union.

So Sturgeon let's say puts this forward as the preferred option.

Guess what London says .

No way.

If we vote yes then we can use the pound officially if we negotiate or we use it unofficially.

Loads of countries do both.

 

 

It's a red herring .

 

All that bluster and you didn't answer the question.

 

Which option have the SNP committed to?

[The Mighty Thor]

27 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Try reversing that argument with the facts the SNP have committed to.

No what I asked you 2 or 3 days ago when you were off on one was for the benefits of being in the Union. 

Even from 2014 would do. 

 

Here's a starter for 10 cos I'm a good guy.👍

 

 

[A Boy Named Crow]

34 minutes ago, Ked said:

Utopian solution?

So because I think that Scotland a country that's had a legal system for hundreds of years a political input and involvement in an Empire that covered the world.

That's had medical science that's led the world.

And much much more .

You think it's utopian that a country with all that experience abundance of wealth to govern itself.

Frank you don't want answers .

You made up your mind and when it's pointed out that it will be nothing like the disaster you claim you resort to the unicorn utopian stuff.

Enjoy your beer buddy

You know the Jim Jefferies stand up skit on US gun control? That's what springs to mind when you hear Scottish unionists try to 'debate' independence.  

 

They put up all sorts of spurious arguments, but at the end if the day, if they were being honest,  for all its faults, they just like the union, they like being British. 

 

If that's the case,  they should just own it. It's a shit argument, but it's all they've got. It's laughable when they try to pretend they are open to persuasion, if only someone would explain x to them... because they then shift to needing answers to y and z instead. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

No what I asked you 2 or 3 days ago when you were off on one was for the benefits of being in the Union. 

Even from 2014 would do. 

 

Here's a starter for 10 cos I'm a good guy.👍

 

 

 

Come back to me when the SNP aren't shitting themselves  to publish their independence strategy and answer the points of the critics.

 

Lets be honest here you can't debate one side against the other when the SNP won't tell us what their answers are!

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 !

 

 

 

They don’t have a viable plan 

I find it unbelievable, really, eight years on and the same questions remain unanswered, if I lost a big contract at work and eight years on I went for the job again but still hadn't sorted out what lost us the job last time I'd be sacked on the spot, and that's the way I look on this, there has to be a reason this has been allowed to go on as it has??

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

That happens every 5 years though.

Party manifestos .

An independent auditor can only look at projections to 2050 and give an opinion.

There are no guarantees as part of the Union or independent.

Just as there is no guarentee of failure under the union or independent.

 

Party manifestos are well known to be full of holes. 

 

Of course there are no guarantees, but at least it will allow for proper scrutiny and electorate comparison. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I find it unbelievable, really, eight years on and the same questions remain unanswered, if I lost a big contract at work and eight years on I went for the job again but still hadn't sorted out what lost us the job last time I'd be sacked on the spot, and that's the way I look on this, there has to be a reason this has been allowed to go on as it has??

Yes they are like the losing contestants on “ The apprentice “   , you know the daft ones who have a ludicrous “ business plan “ but sell it well , or at least attempt to. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Shite patter, mate.  Been home for a couple of hours.

 

Are you running out of straws to clutch?

I'm not clutching at anything. The boy has produced a really coherent set of arguments. And hasn't resorted to throwing any negative shite at anything. I'm impressed more than anything. 

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm not clutching at anything. The boy has produced a really coherent set of arguments. And hasn't resorted to throwing any negative shite at anything. I'm impressed more than anything. 

Compare it to what’s coming back at him.

Now James is here to troll.
Great. I’m out for the night  👍🏼 

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm not clutching at anything. The boy has produced a really coherent set of arguments. And hasn't resorted to throwing any negative shite at anything. I'm impressed more than anything. 

 

No, you are missing the point.

 

His arguments are irrelevant as he is not using the committed position of the SNP, which doesn't exist.

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I find it unbelievable, really, eight years on and the same questions remain unanswered, if I lost a big contract at work and eight years on I went for the job again but still hadn't sorted out what lost us the job last time I'd be sacked on the spot, and that's the way I look on this, there has to be a reason this has been allowed to go on as it has??

 

[Dawnrazor]

25 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

You know the Jim Jefferies stand up skit on US gun control? That's what springs to mind when you hear Scottish unionists try to 'debate' independence.  

 

They put up all sorts of spurious arguments, but at the end if the day, if they were being honest,  for all its faults, they just like the union, they like being British. 

 

If that's the case,  they should just own it. It's a shit argument, but it's all they've got. It's laughable when they try to pretend they are open to persuasion, if only someone would explain x to them... because they then shift to needing answers to y and z instead. 

Sorry but that's utter rubbish, to suggest that people aren't open to persuasion because they want a few basic questions answered before they vote is exactly the kind of post that sees this thread decent into the usual mus slinging.

[XB52]

31 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Overall really, it's all just a bit wooly, it's all ifs and butts. What we need is a positive definitive statement from the SNP, but I asked you earlier, can you see why people are worried about this? It could all so easily put to bed if it was as easy as you suggest, why do you think the SNP didn't answer this last time and still haven't this time considering it generates so my uncertainty and  negativity?

They have already said they will be releasing several papers on post-independence, one of which will be on currency, in the next few months. Maybe wait for them then you can argue against whatever they say then 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, XB52 said:

They have already said they will be releasing several papers on post-independence, one of which will be on currency, in the next few months. Maybe wait for them then you can argue against whatever they say then 

Maybe everyone should avoid this thread, even close, it that's the case untill then?

[XB52]

33 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

All that bluster and you didn't answer the question.

 

Which option have the SNP committed to?

Wait till the paper on currency which they will release in the coming months. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Sorry but that's utter rubbish, to suggest that people aren't open to persuasion because they want a few basic questions answered before they vote is exactly the kind of post that sees this thread decent into the usual mus slinging.

They haven’t released it yet. Surely they’ll have something?

It’s not happening from some people so forget it. I demand answers from the same posters. 
We’re discussing what might be is all. The pros and cons. 
It’s been decent last few days I hope people maintain the decorum👍🏼
 

[XB52]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Maybe everyone should avoid this thread, even close, it that's the case untill then?

I said a week or so ago  I would come back to this thread in a month but I can't resist replying to unionist rubbish. Anyway, see you in July 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, XB52 said:

I said a week or so ago  I would come back to this thread in a month but I can't resist replying to unionist rubbish. Anyway, see you in July 

"Rubbish" you obviously mean replies you don't agree with or can't really argue with in an adult matter, see you in July 👍

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

They haven’t released it yet. Surely they’ll have something?

It’s not happening from some people so forget it. I demand answers from the same posters. 
We’re discussing what might be is all. The pros and cons. 
It’s been decent last few days I hope people maintain the decorum👍🏼
 

Exactly mate 👍

[A Boy Named Crow]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Sorry but that's utter rubbish, to suggest that people aren't open to persuasion because they want a few basic questions answered before they vote is exactly the kind of post that sees this thread decent into the usual mus slinging.

It's not everyone who has questions, but it's worth acknowledging there are those who have no interest in being persuaded. It isn't a rational debate for such people.

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

It's not everyone who has questions, but it's worth acknowledging there are those who have no interest in being persuaded. It isn't a rational debate for such people.

I honestly find it incomprehensible that there are Yes voters who wouldn't have even one question about it as I am about  No voters who wouldn't want to more about it, if that's what you're saying it reflects badly on Scotland.

*edit*

How the **** can anyone not have any questions or be open to any kind of persuasion, c'mon tae ****?😅😅😅

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Pasquale for King]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19747502.snp-back-motion-speed-independent-scotland-adopting-currency/

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19747502.snp-back-motion-speed-independent-scotland-adopting-currency/

A lot of interesting points in that.

[Unknown user]

See you in July  

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

See you in July  

Just realised yesterday was the 1st🤣🤦