Should Scotland be an independent country?

[frankblack]

31 minutes ago, XB52 said:

 

How will Scotland power the country after 2028 if part of the UK? The exact same as it will if independent. You keep mentioning nuclear but there will be no new nuclear stations in Scotland, independent or not, so I just don't get your point at all. 

 

Oh dear.

 

You have missed the obvious point.  Without that fallback its lights out in Scotland.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Ok, I'll wager, given the past vote, the history of polls, the current conversations, that'll it's far more likely to be a 49 - 51 than it is to be a 10 - 90 split.

That doesn't mean we know how many will vote Yes.

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Exactly, without the SNP making a convincing argument to sway enough voters, it'll never happen, that's why, for me, independence is and always will about the SNP.

I understand the context of your meaning.

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

I agree, indy is not about the SNP, which is what I said initally.

 

Anyways, the point was, voting for independence is not voting for the SNP. You are voting for scotland to become an independent country. I don't see how anyone can conflate the 2.

 

Stay off the drugs and don't misquote posters.

 

It makes you look desperate.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

And no offence, but this is why no one's trying to convince you, there's simply no point. None of us can tell the future so no one can give you the reassurance you seem to need.

 

Those guys in the middle are the ones who need to hear that Scotland's a naturally rich country with friends and goodwill across the globe and we have nothing to fear from our freedom.

I'm open to persuasion for more than you give me credit for, when we move back home, I want everything for Scotland that you do, I've our retirement and my sons future to think of, why wouldn't I need convincing?

[jack D and coke]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Stay off the drugs and don't misquote posters.

 

It makes you look desperate.

You’ve lowered the good tone the last few posts you’ve made frank. Enjoy your Saturday and have a beer🍻👍🏼

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, Ked said:

The only one being built in the UK is Hinkley Point c.

An absolute disaster financially .

 

I'm not anti nuclear power but Scotland is in a far superior position  in regards to future energy supply.

If we decided to build one post independence we will have the blueprint of Hinkley point as a go to on how not to do it.

 

 

I agree about Hinkley Point.  That and Chinese Ilinvolvement might be a cluster****.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I understand the context of your meaning.

Thanks, and I get yours too, I just think some though are looking post an independence vote success rather than getting it over the finish line first.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I'm open to persuasion for more than you give me credit for, when we move back home, I want everything for Scotland that you do, I've our retirement and my sons future to think of, why wouldn't I need convincing?

I'm saying that what you need to convince you isn't going to happen, the SNP can't tell the future.

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

You’ve lowered the good tone the last few posts you’ve made frank. Enjoy your Saturday and have a beer🍻👍🏼

 

I'm in the boozer as I post. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Thanks, and I get yours too, I just think some though are looking post an independence vote success rather than getting it over the finish line first.

 

I thought you wanted to discuss what post independence Scotland looks like?

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'm open to persuasion for more than you give me credit for, when we move back home, I want everything for Scotland that you do, I've our retirement and my sons future to think of, why wouldn't I need convincing?

 

This is the crux.  Will independence **** up your chances of retirement when its due.

[Ked]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

I agree about Hinkley Point.  That and Chinese Ilinvolvement might be a cluster****.

It's beyond belief Frank.

That no one's even questioned let alone held to account .

Another thing on the list of dodgy deals.

 

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'm saying that what you need to convince you isn't going to happen, the SNP can't tell the future.

 

Not a massive surprise as it would appear the SNP can't do a lot of things. 

[jambo89]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Stay off the drugs and don't misquote posters.

 

It makes you look desperate.

I literally quoted you verbatim. 🤣

 

Anyway, I'm going to sign off now as don't want to ruin what has been a good thread so far, and I can see this descending in to mud slinging (as you already have) if I continue to engage with you.

Edited July 2, 2022 by jambo89

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

This is the crux.  Will independence **** up your chances of retirement when its due.

Better not **** up mine. Another question that needs answering. The future of state pensions. But the SNP can't tell the future of course..

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm in the boozer as I post. 

 🍻👍🏼

[Unknown user]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Better not **** up mine. Another question that needs answering. The future of state pensions. But the SNP can't tell the future of course..

They have answered that one, even though they can't tell the future.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

I'm saying that what you need to convince you isn't going to happen, the SNP can't tell the future.

 

Well if people can't be convinced by debate how is it ever going to happen? Of course people can't "exactly" tell the future, but there's enough financial experts who can give a good guess enough of the time, it may be enough for you, for whatever your circumstances, for it to be a leap in the dark, but others want a bit more flesh on the bones to make a reasoned decision, I honestly don't think that's too much to ask given the magnitude of the event.

I'd happily live in an independent Scotland if I thought my family would be at least as well off as we are now and my son had a decent future.

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Smithee said:

They have answered that one, even though they can't tell the future.

What was the answer ? 

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I thought you wanted to discuss what post independence Scotland looks like?

No point if the SNP can't deliver it.

[Ked]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

This is the crux.  Will independence **** up your chances of retirement when its due.

That really depends on what kind of pension you are relying on.

Tell you though the demographics mean in most western countries that its a problem for all.

I reckon it won't be long until they push up the age to 70.

 

BTW I like a pint and a post after work sometimes before I head in for dinner.

Just don't post after 5 pints though as it can be messy for you .

Although might be fun for us.

😄

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Better not **** up mine. Another question that needs answering. The future of state pensions. But the SNP can't tell the future of course..

It's been stated a few times that pensions will be safe and why wouldn't they be? I've paid my taxes all my life. Do you not trust Westminster during any negotiations, transfers, administration etc?

[jambo89]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Better not **** up mine. Another question that needs answering. The future of state pensions. But the SNP can't tell the future of course..

To be honest, I don't think I will even recieve a state pension, independence or not. I've got another 35 years to work and suspect it will be gone either way.

[XB52]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Oh dear.

 

You have missed the obvious point.  Without that fallback its lights out in Scotland.

And you keep missing the point of this thread, Independence.  After 2028 there will be no new nuclear power stations in Scotland. You seem to think that's it, we'll all be living in the dark ages after that. I know you don't really believe that but it has nothing to do with independence. In your scenario, we will all be using candles after 2028 as part of the UK. 

We currently export electricity by the way

Edited July 2, 2022 by XB52

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm in the boozer as I post. 

Is it local fb? Enjoy 🍻👍

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

It's been stated a few times that pensions will be safe and why wouldn't they be? I've paid my taxes all my life. Do you not trust Westminster during any negotiations, transfers, administration etc?

Don't trust any of them . Reprobates the lot of them. Main concern is Scottish workers won't need to work longer for a future state pension than their English counterparts. I've been putting into private since 18, so unlikely to massively impact me but others should be checking 

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Better not **** up mine. Another question that needs answering. The future of state pensions. But the SNP can't tell the future of course..

The future regarding pensions is a really difficult one for any government.

The demographics as you probably know will not only include pension payments but already have an effect on the health service .

There has been moves already with legally binding contributions from employers/employees.

It's not a subject that any of the parties wishes to address honestly.

There's a lot of old votes and that proportion is growing.

It's a real problem and for it to be handled properly imo needs cross party approach.

How is it you think your pension would be affected post independence.?

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

No point if the SNP can't deliver it.

 

You want to know what post independent Scotland looks like but aren't interested in hearing what people think post independent Scotland looks like 🤷‍♂️ 

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Don't trust any of them . Reprobates the lot of them. Main concern is Scottish workers won't need to work longer for a future state pension than their English counterparts. I've been putting into private since 18, so unlikely to massively impact me but others should be checking 

 

You've gone from wanting the SNP to answer the question to finding out they have, and now you don't trust them anyway?

Come on, you're a better poster than that.

[Roxy Hearts]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Well if people can't be convinced by debate how is it ever going to happen? Of course people can't "exactly" tell the future, but there's enough financial experts who can give a good guess enough of the time, it may be enough for you, for whatever your circumstances, for it to be a leap in the dark, but others want a bit more flesh on the bones to make a reasoned decision, I honestly don't think that's too much to ask given the magnitude of the event.

I'd happily live in an independent Scotland if I thought my family would be at least as well off as we are now and my son had a decent future.

I'm dreading the future under Westminster rule. It's bad enough that all parties treat Scotland with contempt and lies!

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Well if people can't be convinced by debate how is it ever going to happen? Of course people can't "exactly" tell the future, but there's enough financial experts who can give a good guess enough of the time, it may be enough for you, for whatever your circumstances, for it to be a leap in the dark, but others want a bit more flesh on the bones to make a reasoned decision, I honestly don't think that's too much to ask given the magnitude of the event.

I'd happily live in an independent Scotland if I thought my family would be at least as well off as we are now and my son had a decent future.

 

Totally.  Financial models can be built based on the data to give a very clear indication.  Still waiting for the SNP to pubish ANY data to build a model.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You want to know what post independent Scotland looks like but aren't interested in hearing what people think post independent Scotland looks like 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Now come on, all I'm asking for is the big questions to be answered one way or another so I can make my mind, I really don't think you're giving the people who only want some answers the credit they deserve, I'm as open as anyone to here what a post independence Scotland would look like, but I'd like to hear them answered comprehensively by the people who claim to want to deliver it.

[Unknown user]

I want to know what the Tories have planned for us, what financial projections etc

 

Persuasion works both ways, what future are we looking at under Westminster?

[frankblack]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm dreading the future under Westminster rule. It's bad enough that all parties treat Scotland with contempt and lies!

 

I'm dreading the future under an independent  SNP government who have failed at everything the are in charge of.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Now come on, all I'm asking for is the big questions to be answered one way or another so I can make my mind, I really don't think you're giving the people who only want some answers the credit they deserve, I'm as open as anyone to here what a post independence Scotland would look like, but I'd like to hear them answered comprehensively by the people who claim to want to deliver it.

What exactly do you want from posters here then?

[frankblack]

Just now, Smithee said:

I want to know what the Tories have planned for us, what financial projections etc

 

Persuasion works both ways, what future are we looking at under Westminster?

 

There are financial models available for all of that. Unlike in Scotland.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm dreading the future under Westminster rule. It's bad enough that all parties treat Scotland with contempt and lies!

I completely get where you're coming from, it's no bed of roses for any other than the top 1% (at a guess) this is why I just can't get why Labour aren't 50 points ahead in England and the polls in Scotland aren't showing a similar marging for independence?????

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

What exactly do you want from posters here then?

A reasonable argument?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

There are financial models available for all of that. Unlike in Scotland.

Oh aye?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

A reasonable argument?

 

England's electorate shouldn't decide who Scotland's government is.

 

Only Scotland's electorate should be able to hold Scotland's government accountable.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Smithee

[Ked]

Just to go back a bit on energy.

Scotland produced enough renewable energy in 2021 to power Scottish homes for 3 years.

However the claims made by SG that we used 100% renewables to power Scotland are not correct and have not been corrected on much of the SG literature on this subject which is annoying .

A fact check shows we use around 60% from renewables so I apologise for my 90% claim.

We also to my surprise used 30% from nuclear and the remainder from fossil fuels oil gas.

So apologies to Frank on the nuclear one.

But the overall picture is that we can sustain ourselves energy wise.

The SG /SNP needs to be really careful and transparent to put the case for independence.

 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

England's electorate shouldn't decide who Scotland's government is.

 

Only Scotland's electorate should be able to hold Scotland's government accountable.

Scotland is part of the UK so gets what the majority of the UK vote for, democracy. 

If you want to change that you, and others like you, need to argue your case, this demonstrably hasn't and isn't being done effectively enough, no point in blaming me for that. 

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

The SG /SNP needs to be really careful and transparent to put the case for independence.

 

This completely, if it's viable it should be shown to be, then I, and others, would have no problem voting Yes.

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Scotland is part of the UK so gets what the majority of the UK vote for, democracy. 

If you want to change that you, and others like you, need to argue your case, this demonstrably hasn't and isn't being done effectively enough, no point in blaming me for that. 

I'm not blaming anything, you wanted a reasonable argument, I can't think of any more reasonable argument than being able to hold our government to account.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'm not blaming anything, you wanted a reasonable argument, I can't think of any more reasonable argument than being able to hold our government to account.

You can, make the case and people will vote for it.

[Ked]

12 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

This completely, if it's viable it should be shown to be, then I, and others, would have no problem voting Yes.

It is viable mate.

 

The SNP are a political party therefor spin is part of their make up.

Energy although they spun it is definitely not a problem post indy.

Neither is currency.

Financially the UK hasn't afforded itself for over 50 years and you could count on one hand the nations of the world that are debt free.

And none of those are advanced western countries.

We already have a well established legal system.

What is it that the SNP could/should tell you?

They can give a manifesto or is it how Scotland would work?

Scotland would operate in the same way it does now except there would I'd assume be a cost in regards to transition with I.T .

I'm just wondering what's needed to get you to put the cross in the yes box mate?

 

As far as I can see from the posts against independence it's a lot to do with fear .I don't mean cowardly but that somehow everything will stop working.

There will definitely be all types of problems .

There's always going to be even if we remain.Its about the rewards of independence.Thats the goal.

[Lord Montpelier]

41 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You've gone from wanting the SNP to answer the question to finding out they have, and now you don't trust them anyway?

Come on, you're a better poster than that.

I'd change the process. 

 

- each side submits answers and evidence to a list of pre agreed key questions to an independent auditor prior to any referendum (for example, what is your expected retirement age to achieve full pension by 2050)

 

- the auditor considers this and gives an opinion (simple stuff , extremely likely through to extremely unlikely for example)

 

- that opinion is mailed to the electorate in very simple terms prior to any referendum for consideration

 

Need to establish baseline and transparency on both sides to allow for an informed electorate. All bluster and bs otherwise. 

 

 

[Ked]

26 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Scotland is part of the UK so gets what the majority of the UK vote for, democracy. 

If you want to change that you, and others like you, need to argue your case, this demonstrably hasn't and isn't being done effectively enough, no point in blaming me for that. 

You have to remember that there is powerful forces against independence though and you should try and glean the facts yourself.

Smithee argues the case all the time.

Being effective in an argument doesn't always mean that it means it's right.

Especially these days you only need to look at some of the balloons who have been in power.

People who give reasons for not being independent is what you should look at.

It started last time that we would have to leave the EU and that would mean a lesser deal than we had as part of the UK....

Then it's the currency a complete red herring.

Trade barriers no doubt would take some negotiations ....

What is it for you that holds you back from yes?

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Ked said:

It is viable mate.

 

The SNP are a political party therefor spin is part of their make up.

Energy although they spun it is definitely not a problem post indy.

Neither is currency.

Financially the UK hasn't afforded itself for over 50 years and you could count on one hand the nations of the world that are debt free.

And none of those are advanced western countries.

We already have a well established legal system.

What is it that the SNP could/should tell you?

They can give a manifesto or is it how Scotland would work?

Scotland would operate in the same way it does now except there would I'd assume be a cost in regards to transition with I.T .

I'm just wondering what's needed to get you to put the cross in the yes box mate?

 

As far as I can see from the posts against independence it's a lot to do with fear .I don't mean cowardly but that somehow everything will stop working.

There will definitely be all types of problems .

There's always going to be even if we remain.Its about the rewards of independence.Thats the goal.

 

All complete bollocks you grasped from nationalist grouos.

 

The SNP have published zero policies to determine how viable their independence strategy is.

 

Considering they were supposed to be ready in 2014 that suggests they don't have a viable plan they are willing to allow to be scrutinised.  Worrying.