Should Scotland be an independent country?

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Well this is nice, it's not long since I was ***** of the day for insisting there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

 

As people have said before, the UK's always been pretty grown up about actual independence agreements, and I don't think England or Scotland want a hard border.

I made both of these points earlier.  It would take an extreme form of arseholery for a UKG to be spiteful enough to do otherwise. I know it is not beyond the current lot but we still have some checks and balances remaining to restrain them.

[The Mighty Thor]

33 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/independence-may-lead-britains-balkanisation-1535100

 

An utterly bollocks 2014 article atypical of the manure the hootsman was pumping out at the time. 

 

Unsurpsingly since 2014 the hootsman has virtually vanished as a newspaper with a circulation of around 9,500. 

 

There's more folk read the shite spouted on  this place every day. 😂😂

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

This is the kind of xenophobic pish that makes me fear for the future. Every bit as bad as the extreme nonsense that forage & co promoted down south. 

 

I want to live in a moderate, progressive country and don't want to switch from one form of malignant extremism for another.

There are many extremists like him unfortunately . I met a few on my Indy supporting days in 2014 and to be fair a load of decent people too if different classes and professions 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

How exactly are Scotland and England different countries ? Different “ outlooks” ? Etc . That kind of argument always intrigues me . Usually it means Scottish are more “ friendly , more tolerant and welcoming “ aye so we are !  I’ll acknowledge that English voters do vote for more centre / right parties but there is a groundswell of Tory voters up here too . And that’s fine , it’s a democracy . I just find that line of argument for Indy racist actually . 

We are different countries. That's a fact. And you only need to look at our voting histories to see we have different outlooks and values. 

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

This is the kind of xenophobic pish that makes me fear for the future. Every bit as bad as the extreme nonsense that forage & co promoted down south. 

 

I want to live in a moderate, progressive country and don't want to switch from one form of malignant extremism for another.

Spot on. 
 

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

How exactly are Scotland and England different countries ? Different “ outlooks” ? Etc . That kind of argument always intrigues me . Usually it means Scottish are more “ friendly , more tolerant and welcoming “ aye so we are !  I’ll acknowledge that English voters do vote for more centre / right parties but there is a groundswell of Tory voters up here too . And that’s fine , it’s a democracy . I just find that line of argument for Indy racist actually . 

every day we see examples of how intolerant Scottish people are of other cultures and identities. At least sectarianism is diluted as part of the wider UK. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What “ independence agreements “ have we been “ grown up “ about ? We haven’t had independence ! 

Historically, the UK has supported newly independent nations. In almost every post war case the UK has behaved pretty responsibly. I see no reason why that would change. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

We are different countries. That's a fact. And you only need to look at our voting histories to see we have different outlooks and values. 

Yes but fundamentally we are still quite similar I feel . It’s only in the last 10 -15 years we have diverged . Before then both countries were Labour 

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

How exactly are Scotland and England different countries ? Different “ outlooks” ? Etc . That kind of argument always intrigues me . Usually it means Scottish are more “ friendly , more tolerant and welcoming “ aye so we are !  I’ll acknowledge that English voters do vote for more centre / right parties but there is a groundswell of Tory voters up here too . And that’s fine , it’s a democracy . I just find that line of argument for Indy racist actually . 

No offence mate but if you find my post in any way racist then you are the owner and driver of the easily offended wagon and perhaps need to stop looking for a cause du jour to latch on to and get your frillies wet over.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Nookie Bear said:

Spot on. 
 

every day we see examples of how intolerant Scottish people are of other cultures and identities. At least sectarianism is diluted as part of the wider UK. 

Yes wait till next week and July 12th ! I’m fact they have already began . And just as a reminder Scotland was also the last place to decriminalise homosexuality , 1980 . We can still be quite a puritanical country ( Brian Souter !’ ) 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

No offence mate but if you find my post in any way racist then you are the owner and driver of the easily offended wagon and perhaps need to stop looking for a cause du jour to latch on to and get your frillies wet over.  

It’s your pompous view that Scottish people are somewhat more superior in values etc , that leads me to believe it’s racist . It’s ascribing certain attributes to English 

[Ray Gin]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

A lot of economies are in a mess . Covid didn’t help any of them . Blame both govts for that 

 

Only one to blame for Brexit

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

No offence mate but if you find my post in any way racist then you are the owner and driver of the easily offended wagon and perhaps need to stop looking for a cause du jour to latch on to and get your frillies wet over.  

And I don’t wear frillies 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes but fundamentally we are still quite similar I feel . It’s only in the last 10 -15 years we have diverged . Before then both countries were Labour 

In my lifetime we have had about 15 years of labour and the rest Tory. That includes extreme Thatcherism and more recently a neo Conservative form.of populism close to Trumpism. Scotland hasn't voted that way ever. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Only one to blame for Brexit

Quite a few Scot’s voted for it too . 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

@Smithee Customs checks occur whether a border is soft or hard when there isn't a consistent regulatory regime.

 

Sturgeon is on record as saying she wants Scotland in the single market. Starmer is on the record today saying Labour won't join the single market, thus joining the Conservatives.

 

So that makes customs checks all the more likely.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes wait till next week and July 12th ! I’m fact they have already began . And just as a reminder Scotland was also the last place to decriminalise homosexuality , 1980 . We can still be quite a puritanical country ( Brian Souter !’ ) 

Yeah the brits will be as intolerant as ever starting the 12th I totally agree mate. There are no Scots in Orange walks. None.
Trust me on that one too my proddy credentials are inpeccable😊
Salmond who legalised same sex marriage too was it not? 
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

@Smithee Customs checks occur whether a border is soft or hard when there isn't a consistent regulatory regime.

 

Sturgeon is on record as saying she wants Scotland in the single market. Starmer is on the record today saying Labour won't join the single market, thus joining the Conservatives.

 

So that makes customs checks all the more likely.

Truth alert 🚨 ! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah the brits will be as intolerant as ever starting the 12th I totally agree mate. There are no Scots in Orange walks. None.
Trust me on that one too my proddy credentials are inpeccable😊
Salmond who legalised same sex marriage too was it not? 
 

It was the Tories who legislated it first and an equal age of consent . Despite their faults they are a libertarian party in that respect . 

[Lord Montpelier]

7 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Only one to blame for Brexit

One of your fellow indy supporters admitted on here he / she voted for it to hasten the break up of the union. Maybe others closer to home to blame (Roxy)

[jack D and coke]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

It was the Tories who legislated it first and an equal age of consent . Despite their faults they are a libertarian party in that respect . 

Fair do’s. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

One of your fellow indy supporters admitted on here he / she voted for it to hasten the break up of the union. Maybe others closer to home to blame (Roxy)

Yes I couldn’t believe that when I read it . I’m glad I voted to remain , for all the right reasons .

[Ray Gin]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

One of your fellow indy supporters admitted on here he / she voted for it to hasten the break up of the union. Maybe others closer to home to blame (Roxy)

 

Voters are not governments.

 

However I am happy to lay some of the blame on any idiot who voted for Brexit.

 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Voters are not governments.

 

However I am happy to lay some of the blame on any idiot who voted for Brexit.

 

 

Agree. Brexit was completely unnecessary.  Shooting yourself in the foot springs to mind . Much like any yes result in Scottish indy nonsence. 

[Lord Montpelier]

8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I couldn’t believe that when I read it . I’m glad I voted to remain , for all the right reasons .

Takes all sorts 

[Ray Gin]

5 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Agree. Brexit was completely unnecessary.  Shooting yourself in the foot springs to mind . Much like any yes result in Scottish indy nonsence. 

 

They would only be similar if the UK was actually in any way prospering and it was beneficial to be part of it.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

13 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I couldn’t believe that when I read it . I’m glad I voted to remain , for all the right reasons .

I was foolish but I least I don't have to live with the regret of being a "no" voter or have their pessimistic outlook!

[pablo]

41 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Have you read Portugal’s history? At one point not all that long ago they had about 40 changes of govt in a couple of years. These countries have had enormous changes and internal struggles for years. 

Theres a reason you don’t compare Scotland to them. 
Do you think the Portuguese would vote to give their liberty to Spain? 

 

Okay, so why would Independent Scotland be more like Denmark than Portugal?

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I was foolish but I least I don't have to live with the regret of being a "no" voter or have their pessimistic outlook!

I respect you admitting it and your reasons why . 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Okay, so why would Independent Scotland be more like Denmark than Portugal?

 

Basic things like our climate for one. 
You can’t compare Scotland to Southern Europe for lots of reasons. 
We’re much more like the nations closer. 

[Unknown user]

38 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

@Smithee Customs checks occur whether a border is soft or hard when there isn't a consistent regulatory regime.

 

Sturgeon is on record as saying she wants Scotland in the single market. Starmer is on the record today saying Labour won't join the single market, thus joining the Conservatives.

 

So that makes customs checks all the more likely.

Yet there's still no reason to assume there'll be any.

[Unknown user]

49 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What “ independence agreements “ have we been “ grown up “ about ? We haven’t had independence ! 

 

 

FS James, you no heard of the British empire now? 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yet there's still no reason to assume there'll be any.

You can assume that if you wish. For your sake, you should hope your desired independence negotiators don't have their heads in the clouds like you.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

 

FS James, you no heard of the British empire now? 

Oh yeah ! 😂 a senior moment 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

You can assume that if you wish. For your sake, you should hope your desired independence negotiators don't have their heads in the clouds like you.

I'm making no assumptions, that's the point.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Basic things like our climate for one. 
You can’t compare Scotland to Southern Europe for lots of reasons. 
We’re much more like the nations closer. 

 

 

Ha ha class......the weather 🤣 

 

You must think we're even more like even closer nations, such as England? What with our shared history, language,  customs and values.

 

So again,  why would Scotland be more like Denmark, who have spent the last 600 years becoming Denmark rather than Portugal, which we could go right back to the splitting of the New World between them and Spain.

 

I get that Denmark is an easier sell and better PR obviously. It would be just like Copenhagen 👍 

[pablo]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

FS James, you no heard of the British empire now? 

 

What's the old British empire got to do with the Scottish Independence debate?

[Roxy Hearts]

12 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I respect you admitting it and your reasons why . 

👍if we achieve independence and  are offered a vote to join the EU, it'll be a yes!

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

Ha ha class......the weather 🤣 

 

You must think we're even more like even closer nations, such as England? What with our shared history, language,  customs and values.

 

So again,  why would Scotland be more like Denmark, who have spent the last 600 years becoming Denmark rather than Portugal, which we could go right back to the splitting of the New World between them and Spain.

 

I get that Denmark is an easier sell and better PR obviously. It would be just like Copenhagen 👍 

According to another poster we have hardly any shared values etc with the English . Thinks we are superior . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

Ha ha class......the weather 🤣 

 

You must think we're even more like even closer nations, such as England? What with our shared history, language,  customs and values.

 

So again,  why would Scotland be more like Denmark, who have spent the last 600 years becoming Denmark rather than Portugal, which we could go right back to the splitting of the New World between them and Spain.

 

I get that Denmark is an easier sell and better PR obviously. It would be just like Copenhagen 👍 

“ the weather “ comment also made me laugh 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

👍if we achieve independence and  are offered a vote to join the EU, it'll be a yes!

👍👍

[Ray Gin]

8 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

Ha ha class......the weather 🤣 

 

You must think we're even more like even closer nations, such as England? What with our shared history, language,  customs and values.

 

So again,  why would Scotland be more like Denmark, who have spent the last 600 years becoming Denmark rather than Portugal, which we could go right back to the splitting of the New World between them and Spain.

 

I get that Denmark is an easier sell and better PR obviously. It would be just like Copenhagen 👍 

 

Denmark is just across the north sea from us and has a very similar population.

Portugal is in Southern Europe with double our population.

Why would you compare us with Portugal instead of Denmark?

[pablo]

18 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Denmark is just across the north sea from us and has a very similar population.

Portugal is in Southern Europe with double our population.

Why would you compare us with Portugal instead of Denmark?

 

I'm not. I don't think we'd be like either. I think we'd be like the rest of the UK, only poorer and with even more Scottish flags on things.

 

I just laugh at how it's always Denmark or New Zealand we'd be like rather than Portugal or Botswana.

[jack D and coke]

29 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

Ha ha class......the weather 🤣 

 

You must think we're even more like even closer nations, such as England? What with our shared history, language,  customs and values.

 

So again,  why would Scotland be more like Denmark, who have spent the last 600 years becoming Denmark rather than Portugal, which we could go right back to the splitting of the New World between them and Spain.

 

I get that Denmark is an easier sell and better PR obviously. It would be just like Copenhagen 👍 

So you think our economies will be the same and that climate has nothing to do with it? They have different industries due to their weather. 
It’s nothing about trying to make it an easier sell. You’d never be convinced I’m not trying to sell anything. 
We are like some parts of England yeah who’s denying that? 
You’ll notice I haven’t compared Scotland to Denmark either. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

33 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

According to another poster we have hardly any shared values etc with the English . Thinks we are superior . 

I haven't seen anyone say we are superior. However, our values are increasingly diverging. 

[jack D and coke]

I should save things  
Id read a report about the workings of the euro and how the Southern European countries didn’t fare so well. 
The climate was mentioned. 
I’ll never find it now. 

[pablo]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I haven't seen anyone say we are superior. However, our values are increasingly diverging. 

 

No they're not. A political divergence definitely, but generally speaking

individual's values across the UK. I'd say no.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

No they're not. A political divergence definitely, but generally speaking

individual's values across the UK. I'd say no.

Disagree. There are of course many common values that I hope are shared with other western democracies but that has been changing at pace in the last decade.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

No they're not. A political divergence definitely, but generally speaking

individual's values across the UK. I'd say no.

Cool, it's a political solution we're discussing, individuals' values won't be changed.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Cool, it's a political solution we're discussing, individuals' values won't be changed.

 

Totally agree 

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Disagree. There are of course many common values that I hope are shared with other western democracies but that has been changing at pace in the last decade.

 

But I'm talking about across the UK and specifically between England and Scotland. The common vales of fairness,  respecting the rule of law and standing up to bullies or intolerance is found across Britain.

 

The political means to achieve that,  whether that's Brexit, Scottish Independence or dare I say it, progressiveness is where the divergence is found. Depending on what side you're on.