Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Ok, I don't think it's a cool look to trivialise tens of thousands of deaths and to contemptuously ridicule and sneer at  people who are following public health restrictions as much as they can to prevent further deaths. 

 

Is that OK? 

So your opinion isn't actually related to the points made in a post. But on reading between the lines to imagine the post is trivialising deaths and sneering at people following health restrictions.

 

I suppose that  is consistent with some types of "policing".

 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The teacher’s Union can **** right off with their appeal to close schools again

 

Why? Is their argument not valid about protecting the health and safety of their members?

 

If its not safe for office workers to return to big open plan offices with air conditioning then how can schools be safe without it and 25+ kids per room?

[Shooter McGavin]

Can anybody confirm whether entering or leaving a tier level 3 area is a guideline or law?
 

i.e. is it an offence or punishable? Or do you just run the risk of a fine?

 

Fair to say, I’m getting a bit confused with all the different terms being used!

Edited November 1, 2020 by Shooter McGavin

[redjambo]

32 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Dr David Nabarro, a WHO special envoy for Covid-19, has said, "We in the WHO do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus ... we really do appeal to all world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method."

 

The relevant word here is primary.

[bajthejambo]

With regards to the furlough extention, will it simply be a case of businesses submitting claims as they have been? Can Sturgeon actually ring-fence the money if she doesn't feel it's necessary for Scotland at this moment in time?

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Why? Is their argument not valid about protecting the health and safety of their members?

 

If its not safe for office workers to return to big open plan offices with air conditioning then how can schools be safe without it and 25+ kids per room?

Last I saw there was one (unconfirmed) case of a teacher dying after being infected by a pupil. In the whole world. 

[The Internet]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Why? Is their argument not valid about protecting the health and safety of their members?

 

If its not safe for office workers to return to big open plan offices with air conditioning then how can schools be safe without it and 25+ kids per room?

 

It's a really difficult one isn't it, think I can see both sides. Personally I think schools need to be open as far as possible simply for the sake of kids mental health and education, but I can definitely understand the teachers concerns considering how it's spreading in schools. Wouldn't want to be the one deciding this stuff tbf. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Track & Trace what an absolute fiasco and disaster.

 

Turns out there was a software issue which meant that thousands of people who should have been warned to self-isolate didn't receive any warnings, meaning potentially infected people were walking about in the community when they should have been self-isolating.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-covid-app-failed-to-record-potential-exposures-due-to-error-12120910

Edited November 1, 2020 by Jambo-Jimbo

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Last I saw there was one (unconfirmed) case of a teacher dying after being infected by a pupil. In the whole world. 

 

How many infected directly or indirectly through schools?  The government scientists have confirmed secondary school pupils can be super spreaders.

 

Its a bigger risk than large offices wouldn't you agree?

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

How many infected directly or indirectly through schools?  The government scientists have confirmed secondary school pupils can be super spreaders.

 

Its a bigger risk than large offices wouldn't you agree?

"Can be" doesn't help much in answering the question. The number or proportion  of superspreaders in the different environments would help. But the fact that few if any teachers have died as a result of infection by schoolchildren suggests schoolteaching is an extremely.low risk activity and that should be reflected in the decision about whether to close schools. Especially given that say office working can continue remotely with relatively little damage to lives and life prospects compared to the impact of extended school closures.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Francis Albert

[redjambo]

12 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Track & Trace what an absolute fiasco and disaster.

 

Turns out there was a software issue which meant that thousands of people who should have been warned to self-isolate didn't receive any warnings, meaning potentially infected people were walking about in the community when they should have been self-isolating.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-covid-app-failed-to-record-potential-exposures-due-to-error-12120910

 

Note that this is for the app used by England and Wales, not the one used by Scotland.

[frankblack]

16 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Kids missing out on school is a) a driver in employers and employees having very hard decisions to make about their jobs and b) going to cause emotional and behavioural issues for the children. Closing the schools again, especially after the half-arsed attempt from the teachers last time around with distance learning, causes more problems than it solves. Teachers need to man up and realise they chose a job with a high level of responsibility in society, and that times of crisis require such people to step up. If they are not willing to bring on the next generation of pupils, get teachers in who are.

 

You cannot violate the health and safety of teaching staff.  They did not sign a waiver to exempt their rights.

 

It works both ways.  If offices aren't safe then schools definitely aren't either.

[manaliveits105]

Any time the teachers union reps are interviewed they are itching to strike it seems 

our kids need to be at school , nursery and uni 
feck the unions 

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

"Can be" doesn't help much in answering the question. The number or proportion  of superspreaders in the different environments would help. But the fact that few if any teachers have died as a result of infection by schoolchildren suggests schoolteaching is an extremely.low risk activity and that should be reflected in the decision about whether to close schools. Especially given that say office working can continue remotely with relatively little damage to lives and life prospects compared to the impact of extended school closures.

 

 

That is conclusion shopping and not something you can know without all the data of those employed - age, medical conditions, etc.

 

It also doesn't cover the risk of children infecting vulnerable family members because of contact with other children in the school/pre/post settings.

[Weakened Offender]

41 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So your opinion isn't actually related to the points made in a post. But on reading between the lines to imagine the post is trivialising deaths and sneering at people following health restrictions.

 

I suppose that  is consistent with some types of "policing".

 

 

That policing thing is really important to you eh? 

[Enzo Chiefo]

56 minutes ago, felix said:

Prof Sunetra Gupta - professor of epidemiology at Oxford, thinks lockdowns just delay the process - and don't solve the problem.

Learn to live with it is her advice.

 

She was the good Professor that was uninvited from a slot on a national radio station because hearing her views, get this..."would not be in the national interest". 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

19 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Track & Trace what an absolute fiasco and disaster.

 

Turns out there was a software issue which meant that thousands of people who should have been warned to self-isolate didn't receive any warnings, meaning potentially infected people were walking about in the community when they should have been self-isolating.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-covid-app-failed-to-record-potential-exposures-due-to-error-12120910

 

seems like the most basic of testing is being botched in the rush to get these things to ‘market’ - the recent excel one being a howler of the highest order

 

you can rest assured that no such issues will occur with the imminent vaccines which have been produced in triple quick time

 

absolutely no issues with the vaccines - no additional risks - none - follow “ the science”

 

so much so if you’re not fighting to be at the front of the vaccine roulette queue you should be at the end of the care roulette queue according at least one senior modeller (..... on here )

 

 

 

 

[Bull's-eye]

48 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If that is the only reason shouldn't we be given more information on how stretched hospitals are and the level of occupation and trend in levels of occupation compared to similar time periods in previous years?

Last figures I saw referred to were for the Manchester "hot spot" a couple of weeks ago where levels of hospital occupancy were below those of the same period last year. Figures seem to be used primarily to scare people into obeying the rules rather than explaining clearly why the rules are needed (accepting for the moment that the rules will have the intended impact).

 

In the first wave the focus was very much on deaths. In the second wave it is on infections, with no explanation of how the vastly increased rates of testing influence the comparison betweeen measured rates on infection in March/Aril compared to now. Clearer understanding and explanation would help to legitimise the lock down measures.

 

And can we please stop singling our population as being uniquely irresponsible and moronic. Riots in Italy against  lockdown are reported in the papers today. Protests and mass gatherings have occurred in much of Western Europe. 

 

I wouldnt bother telling the moronic public anything because it's been proved time and time again that morons don't listen. 

I'm sure there are plenty morons in Italy as well as much of Western Europe.

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Any time the teachers union reps are interviewed they are itching to strike it seems 

our kids need to be at school , nursery and uni 
feck the unions 

You tend to find that union leaders, on their 6 figure salaries and union funded mortgages, aren't really in touch with people's every day lives, concerns and responsibilities. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

She was the good Professor that was uninvited from a slot on a national radio station because hearing her views, get this..."would not be in the national interest". 

 

quite rightly so - she could have easily gone rogue and started ranting on about the earth being flat and stuff

 

 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That is conclusion shopping and not something you can know without all the data of those employed - age, medical conditions, etc.

 

It also doesn't cover the risk of children infecting vulnerable family members because of contact with other children in the school/pre/post settings.

"Conclusion shopping"?

 

The risks you refer to also apply to many other essential workers who are much more at risk from infection at work than schoolteachers. And yes I think teaching is essential work.

[felix]

45 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

flat earther clearly

this lady appears to be a scientist but not part of “the science”.

 

..........

 

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

She was the good Professor that was uninvited from a slot on a national radio station because hearing her views, get this..."would not be in the national interest". 

Yup. ..her professional views were presented to Boris. Politely told to GTF

[Jambo-Jimbo]

16 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Note that this is for the app used by England and Wales, not the one used by Scotland.

 

In hindsight I should have said England, however as the Scottish app doesn't seem to be having any real problems and the English one has been beset with problems from day one, I thought it would have been obvious that was the one which I was meaning, but I'll make sure I make the distinction between which app I mean, if I post anything else about either of them again.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

56 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Why? Is their argument not valid about protecting the health and safety of their members?

 

If its not safe for office workers to return to big open plan offices with air conditioning then how can schools be safe without it and 25+ kids per room?

My kids’ school have been back for over a month now with no cases. Not one. So where’s the justification? Because it might become an issue? Are the union happy for the teachers to get furloughed? That’s what should happen to plenty of them if the schools close. But the union will expect full pay.

 

There are two fundamental differences between schools and offices - firstly, we’re talking about education. And secondly, closing offices does not put a burden of childcare on parents with jobs. Not that the union give a flying **** about that.

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

That policing thing is really important to you eh? 

You are the self appointed policeman!

[Footballfirst]

32 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You cannot violate the health and safety of teaching staff.  They did not sign a waiver to exempt their rights.

 

It works both ways.  If offices aren't safe then schools definitely aren't either.

 

Here is a hypothetical set of figures completely made up by myself.

 

Settings for Covid transmission without any restrictions.

Domestic settings 50%

Health and Care settings 10%

Hospitality 10% (3% restaurants, 7% bars & clubs)

Schools & Further Ed. 10% (2% primary 4% Secondary, 4 % further ed) 

Manufacturing and construction 5%

Retail 5%

Leisure and Sports 5%

Offices 5%

 

No doubt all governments will have access to such figures appropriate to their own countries. If a government wishes to cut infection rates, while doing minimum harm to the economy, jobs and peoples' well-being, then what areas would they restrict to cut the risk of exposure in half?

 

Domestic settings - stop visits from other households

Health and Care - strict PPE controls and restricted visiting

Hospitality - close pubs and nightclubs

Schools and further education - not desirable to restrict

Manufacturing - not desirable to restrict

Retail - not desirable to restrict

Leisure and Sports - non essential so restrict activities

Office environments - encourage home working.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

24 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Any time the teachers union reps are interviewed they are itching to strike it seems 

our kids need to be at school , nursery and uni 
feck the unions 

Correct. Lazy *****.

[The Internet]

Had a feeling we were only a couple of posts away from the word 'lazy' cropping up. 

[Adam_the_legend]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Why? Is their argument not valid about protecting the health and safety of their members?

 

If its not safe for office workers to return to big open plan offices with air conditioning then how can schools be safe without it and 25+ kids per room?

key industry. We’re happy to expect the police, fire service, supermarket workers...etc to keep working but teachers should get an out? They have one of the most essential jobs going, destroying our children’s future shouldn’t be on the table. 

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

My kids’ school have been back for over a month now with no cases. Not one. So where’s the justification? Because it might become an issue? Are the union happy for the teachers to get furloughed? That’s what should happen to plenty of them if the schools close. But the union will expect full pay.

 

I know two friends with family members that have had to srlf isolate because kids in their class tested positive.  It was two different Edinburgh schools.

 

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

There are two fundamental differences between schools and offices - firstly, we’re talking about education. And secondly, closing offices does not put a burden of childcare on parents with jobs. Not that the union give a flying **** about that.

 

That is saying that the wellbeing of teaching staff doesn't matter as they are less important than your job.  Bit of a selfish attitude don't you think?

[Francis Albert]

32 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

I wouldnt bother telling the moronic public anything because it's been proved time and time again that morons don't listen. 

I'm sure there are plenty morons in Italy as well as much of Western Europe.

Good of the Government Communications Director to take time out to explain the poilcy.

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I know two friends with family members that have had to srlf isolate because kids in their class tested positive.  It was two different Edinburgh schools.

 

 

That is saying that the wellbeing of teaching staff doesn't matter as they are less important than your job.  Bit of a selfish attitude don't you think?

And for the Teachers Unions the wellbeing of teachers matters more than the well being of say supermarket staff? 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Adam_the_legend said:

key industry. We’re happy to expect the police, fire service, supermarket workers...etc to keep working but teachers should get an out? They have one of the most essential jobs going, destroying our children’s future shouldn’t be on the table. 

 

That isn't a justification for risking their health if facilities aren't safe is it? Supermarkets have invested in making their work environment safer, and social distancing and masks cover the others.

 

Social distancing doesn't seem to work in schools and mask wearing is only just been made compulsory suggesting the environmental isn't ideal to work or learn in.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And for the Teachers Unions the wellbeing of teachers matters more than the well being of say supermarket staff? 

 

Last time I checked the Teaching Unions didn't have supermarket staff as members.

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

quite rightly so - she could have easily gone rogue and started ranting on about the earth being flat and stuff

 

 

Yip. Given half a chance, I'm sure she would want to convert us all into flat earthers. Imagine the melt down on here. I've stopped watching the BBC News now, due to their relentless Covid obsession and the daily guided tours of ICU wards from around the globe. ITV are far more balanced and appreciative of the fact that life exists beyond Covid. It was leading all last week with the US election. Some nights it was 20 mins before Covid was even mentioned. 

[kila]

9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And for the Teachers Unions the wellbeing of teachers matters more than the well being of say supermarket staff? 

 

Do you have the numbers for supermarket infection rates compared to schools?

 

Not that I am advocating closing schools... I want education to continue as much as possible.

 

[Weakened Offender]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That is saying that the wellbeing of teaching staff doesn't matter as they are less important than your job.  Bit of a selfish attitude don't you think?

 

It really wasn't saying that though was it? 

[vegas-voss]

Sorry if already posted what a huge difference this is.

 

 

[SectionFJambo]

Teachers are constantly at it - always want to strike, always want more money, always something. I'm sure they do lots of hours etc. but so do most folk on the best part of £40k.

 

If the little shop assistant on minimum wage can work with PPE in higher risk environments then the teachers certainly can.

[Adam_the_legend]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That isn't a justification for risking their health if facilities aren't safe is it? Supermarkets have invested in making their work environment safer, and social distancing and masks cover the others.

 

Social distancing doesn't seem to work in schools and mask wearing is only just been made compulsory suggesting the environmental isn't ideal to work or learn in.

It absolutely is a justification. Teachers risked their health every day Pre covid, schools are full of all sorts of diseases and I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could find cases of teachers getting seriously ill from students. Not only will our kids be paying off all the debt being accrued due to covid but their life chances are being seriously affected. If teachers are so worried about it then I would suggest teaching is not the right job for them. I appreciate that seems callous but education is such an important element it needs to be said.

 

Let’s not forget, parents were threatened with fines and sometimes prosecution for taking their kids out of school even for a day. Now it’s fine to keep them out for months and months. Nope, not having it!!

[Taffin]

32 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

key industry. We’re happy to expect the police, fire service, supermarket workers...etc to keep working but teachers should get an out? They have one of the most essential jobs going, destroying our children’s future shouldn’t be on the table. 

 

The financial damage that's being done to many kid's parents livelihoods will have a much bigger role in destroying kids future's than a month off school.

 

We either need a lockdown, in which case all domestic travel should be curtailed and schools should be closed, or we don't.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Taffin

[vegas-voss]

11 minutes ago, SectionFJambo said:

Teachers are constantly at it - always want to strike, always want more money, always something. I'm sure they do lots of hours etc. but so do most folk on the best part of £40k.

 

If the little shop assistant on minimum wage can work with PPE in higher risk environments then the teachers certainly can.

If the guy from SAGE is saying high schools might need to shut if infections keep happening in them then surely to **** they listen this time.Cause let's be honest what is the point of locking everything down just for it to spread in households from teenagers bringing it in through no fault of their own.It only seems to be high schools they are mentioning just now.But have they got a proper online learning program set up for them ?

Edited November 1, 2020 by vegas-voss

[vegas-voss]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

The financial damage that's being done to many kids livelihoods will have a much bigger role in destroying kids future's than a month off school.

 

We either need a lockdown, in which case all domestic travel should be curtailed and schools should be closed, or we don't.

 

 

Aye I don't see the point if it is spreading in high schools of shutting everything down for it just to be taken into homes anyway.

[vegas-voss]

My wife's cousin has had two ( they thought he was a hospital job one of the  days ) absolutely brutal days with this now but is slowly coming through it now.Its the pains in his head that have been the worst for him and now his wife has symptoms though they seem pretty mild so far.

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

It absolutely is a justification. Teachers risked their health every day Pre covid, schools are full of all sorts of diseases and I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could find cases of teachers getting seriously ill from students. Not only will our kids be paying off all the debt being accrued due to covid but their life chances are being seriously affected. If teachers are so worried about it then I would suggest teaching is not the right job for them. I appreciate that seems callous but education is such an important element it needs to be said.

 

And yet all of those have a vaccine or medicine to cure.  Covid doesn't.

 

9 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

Let’s not forget, parents were threatened with fines and sometimes prosecution for taking their kids out of school even for a day. Now it’s fine to keep them out for months and months. Nope, not having it!!

 

That is a different argument as politicians make those rules.

[Adam_the_legend]

8 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

The financial damage that's being done to many kid's parents livelihoods will have a much bigger role in destroying kids future's than a month off school.

 

We either need a lockdown, in which case all domestic travel should be curtailed and schools should be closed, or we don't.

 

 

A month?? Closer to 6. What do you think their chances look like with heavily dimished education PLUS their parents livelihoods being destroyed. I include myself in this category after being made redundant recently. I worry about my son, I worry I won’t be able to keep a roof over his head. I am unwilling to further sacrifice his life chances by denying him an education. 

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

If the guy from SAGE is saying high schools might need to shut if infections keep happening in them then surely to **** they listen this time.Cause let's be honest what is the point of locking everything down just for it to spread in households from teenagers bringing it in through no fault of their own.It only seems to be high schools they are mentioning just now.But have they got a proper online learning program set up for them ?

 

Spot on.

 

These guys are supposed to be the experts here.

[felix]

24 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

It really wasn't saying that though was it? 

Good policing. Keep it up  👍

[frankblack]

Just now, Adam_the_legend said:

A month?? Closer to 6. What do you think their chances look like with heavily dimished education PLUS their parents livelihoods being destroyed. I include myself in this category after being made redundant recently. I worry about my son, I worry I won’t be able to keep a roof over his head. I am unwilling to further sacrifice his life chances by denying him an education. 

 

Sorry to hear about your situation.  It is tough just now and we can hope this vaccine is imminent as it should give employers confidence to invest and regrow.

[Adam_the_legend]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

And yet all of those have a vaccine or medicine to cure.  Covid doesn't.

 

 

That is a different argument as politicians make those rules.

I’m confused, when did we conquer all non covid diseases?

 

Politicians? Many studies out there showing even small amounts of time out of class equals diminished life chances. I’m no fan of politicians but with that one they are just “following the science”. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Adam_the_legend
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