Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Hopefully The FM boots the boot into this Christmas nonsense. The most stupid thing I've ever heard, allowing people to travel all over the UK for Christmas. 

 

 

Your absolutely right. Fancy having freedom of movement in your own country, a right recognised by the UN, restored. 

 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

The problem with that is, regardless of what she says, people will do as they please anyway.

And woe betide as they say. At least they can't say they weren't warned. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

5 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

What, you mean the Swedes who didn't impose a lockdown, didn't impose face masks, didn't ruin their economy and destroy the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people.  A country that is more or less back to normal, people happily mingling together in pubs, restaurants, public transport, without face masks, and who's death rate is lower than the UK?  How is that a failure?

 

 

 

 

also a big bunch of the Swedish deaths came from their failure to protect the vulnerable in care homes (like the uk and Scotland) and not from their lighter restrictions

 

people with actual qualifications in the subject know that a certain amount of immunity exists from other corona viruses far less covid 19 and that can play a big part in the overall strategy if it’s allowed to

 

any talk of that is often confused by expert candlestick makers on football forums as it being the only defence and letting the virus rip through the population with no other measures

 

 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

Your absolutely right. Fancy having freedom of movement in your own country, a right recognised by the UN, restored. 

 

Rights are for all, including the right to not be infected by the mentally challenged, or in plain English. *****! (See you next Tuesdays) 

[Malinga the Swinga]

10 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

If it acts like a Tory and looks like a Tory then . . . . 

It's probably an SNP supporter. 

[Captain Sausage]

Question for people who know much more than I do:

 

Me and family live and work in France at the moment, but wanted to come to see my parents for 6 days at Christmas. 
 

Planning to fly back, dad will pick us up and we will spend the 6 days at their house (with some walks etc). 
 

Would then head back to Paris. My dad says this is against the rules as we won’t have completed a quarantine. Is that right? I’d have thought it was fine? If stopped, would we be turned around or would my contract and french lease be sufficient to allow us to travel?

[theshed]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Hopefully The FM boots the boot into this Christmas nonsense. The most stupid thing I've ever heard, allowing people to travel all over the UK for Christmas. 

 

 

So if the FM this week comes out and says she opening up for christmas I fully expect you to give her a hard time and say she much be mad 👍

[Nucky Thompson]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

And woe betide as they say. At least they can't say they weren't warned. 

[Ray Gin]

11 hours ago, jonesy said:

The pandemic has shagged itself out in some places already. 

 

Examples of countries where the virus roamed free and just petered out all on its own?

[Ray Gin]

6 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

What, you mean the Swedes who didn't impose a lockdown, didn't impose face masks, didn't ruin their economy and destroy the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people.  A country that is more or less back to normal, people happily mingling together in pubs, restaurants, public transport, without face masks, and who's death rate is lower than the UK?  How is that a failure?

 

 

 

 

He means the Sweden that does now have lockdown measures, over 6000 cases a day, and whose Epidemiologist now admits that chasing herd immunity is "futile and immoral".

 

[Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Examples of countries where the virus roamed free and just petered out all on its own?

To be fair I'd have expected many of the huge overcrowded and hygienically challenged cities in Africa and Asia to be like scenes from a zombie apocalypse. The virus seems more prevalent in more affluent countries where people/governments are easier to be scared shitless into paying for a vaccine. I will remove my tinfoil hat. 

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

19 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

 

 

[Ray Gin]

15 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Sweden have never pursued a policy of herd immunity. 

 

So they claim. Much like Boris Johnson claims that wasn't his initial approach when he pissed around for a fortnight at the start of the pandemic.

 

 

Anders Tengell in March: “In the autumn there will be a second wave,” he said. “Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low.”

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ray Gin

[Ron Burgundy]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

So they claim. Much like Boris Johnson claims that wasn't his initial approach when he pissed around for a fortnight at the start of the pandemic.

 

 

Sturgeon tried herd immunity in care homes. Didn't work that well.

[The Real Maroonblood]

42 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

No they stated that repeatedly and right from the outset, together with their strategy and rational would tend to back that view up. Its you that seems to be suggesting it was their policy to go for ‘herd immunity’ when it clearly wasn’t. 

 

He clearly states that he expected Sweden to have achieved a high level of immunity by Autumn.

[Ray Gin]

His predecessor agrees:

 

"The predecessor of Sweden's state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell has accused him and his team of failing to adequately prepare Sweden for the second wave of coronavirus infections, because "wishful thinking" led them wrongly to believe that immunity would leave the country protected."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/15/tegnells-predecessor-blames-wishful-thinking-swedens-soaring/

[Ron Burgundy]

8 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

The life expectancy in these countries is already low enough that dick people are allowed to die anyway. That is a separate tragedy. 

I'm not so sure that their life expectancy is lower than some areas of Scotland. I actually think I read recently the east end of Glasgow has a lower life expectancy for a male than India. 

[Justin Z]

What happens when you have less than zero rational approach to a pandemic

 

 

[Victorian]

The herd immunity theory is an absolute scream and completely bogus.  There will be herd immunity but via vaccination,  as it always has to be.  Trying to achieve herd immunity from infection conferred immune response would have been like trying to fill a bucket with water while the bucket had a big hole in the bottom.  As bogus as it comes.

[JudyJudyJudy]

47 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

So they claim. Much like Boris Johnson claims that wasn't his initial approach when he pissed around for a fortnight at the start of the pandemic.

 

 

Anders Tengell in March: “In the autumn there will be a second wave,” he said. “Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low.”

Yes this may be the case but in the long run Sweden will do much better re people’s mental / physical health / economy of its people . We will have years of untold harm to our population due to lock downs etc 

[Ray Gin]

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

So like you its a claim counter to what he suggest doing and back by strategy etc.

 

Whilst, expecting to have higher immunity levels is not even close to being the same thing as going for herd immunity. As at @Victorian says herd immunity is achieved through vaccination not letting a virus work through everywhere. However, its also undeniable having a greater level of immunity in the population reduces the spread. 

 

Their policy was about long term sustainability of restrictions levels and minimising damage to society overall.  You can argue whether its been the correct approach or not. However, your making stuff up saying they pursued a policy of herd immunity, its simply untrue.

 

There policy has not been all that different from most in Europe they have just imposed lighter touch for a variety of reasons.  

 

 

Saying that “Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low" isn't close to being the same thing as going for herd immunity? 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. 

 

 

 

[DETTY29]

59 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

The life expectancy in these countries is already low enough that dick people are allowed to die anyway. That is a separate tragedy. 

1. Quick Action

2. Public Support

3. Young population - few care homes

4. Favourable climate

5. Good community health care.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-54418613

 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said:

Question for people who know much more than I do:

 

Me and family live and work in France at the moment, but wanted to come to see my parents for 6 days at Christmas. 
 

Planning to fly back, dad will pick us up and we will spend the 6 days at their house (with some walks etc). 
 

Would then head back to Paris. My dad says this is against the rules as we won’t have completed a quarantine. Is that right? I’d have thought it was fine? If stopped, would we be turned around or would my contract and french lease be sufficient to allow us to travel?

 

As far as I'm aware you cannot just head out for a walk etc while self isolating. You also should not be mixing with others.

You can leave for France at any time as long as you head straight there.

 

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-public-health-checks-at-borders/

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

So despite all his statements and policy he designed which states they are not going looking to achieve herd immunity, never mind the countless interviews he has given explaining the policy and rational. You think because he’s made this statement they have gone for herd immunity and evertything else is descrtedited? 😂

 

So you will disgree with science expert over what constittutes herd immunity. I thought you were all about following the expert advice 😀.

 

You might not like his view bout difficult to deny he know a shit more about herd immunity as policy than yourself 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Sweden have never fallen a policy despite your expert assertions.

 

 

 

Not just me:

 

Telegraph: "Sweden Got It Wrong On Herd Immunity"

Guardian: "Swedish Surge in Covid Cases Dashes Immunity Hopes"

NZ Herald: "Sweden's Herd Immunity Strategy Has Failed"

National Post: "Lockdown U-turn in Sweden as COVID-19 cases soar and herd immunity hopes falter"

Royal Society of Medicine: "Covid-19: herd immunity in Sweden fails to materialise"

 

I could go on.

 

There's also this:

 

"One example showing clearly that government officials had been thinking about herd immunity from early on is a March 15 email sent from a retired doctor to Tegnell, the epidemiologist and architect of the Swedish plan, which he forwarded to his Finnish counterpart, Mika Salminen. In it, the retired doctor recommended allowing healthy people to be infected in controlled settings as a way to fight the epidemic. “One point would be to keep schools open to reach herd immunity faster,” Tegnell noted at the top of the forwarded email."

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

 

 

[Tenaciousdandy]

The look of fear on Hancocks face when someone coughed in the committee meeting 🤣

[Pasquale for King]

6 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

That's a fair point, but if it's less important than saving lives then you risk a whole lot more lives and so the circle goes. You can't separate them out really imo.

 

A strong economic picture will save far more lives globally than our coronavirus measures...albeit potentially at the expense of domestic lives, which interestingly doesn't really suit the narrative that those opposed to the measures are UJ waving, British money for British people types, quite the opposite.

 

The uncomfortable truth is that saving 'granny' has an economic cost and in turn, a human cost somewhere else. If the fear that hunger deaths could double due to the economic fallout came true...the cost of those measures in that area alone would be c. 9 millions lives. It doesn't have to be one or the other though and our governments should be trying to find the balance that maximises the protection of life. Some of us think they're doing that, others think theyre failing...it's not an easy job though for sure.

 

 

Spoken like an economist, governments should be looking at taking care of all their citizens no matter what it costs. If people weren’t stuck in poverty they would be a lot more healthy and not as susceptible to this or any other virus. Austerity is a choice that affects to majority, the rich get richer. Look at how the Tories have made their friends and donors wealthier during the pandemic. 
As for butchers apron flag wavers the majority on here that hate Sturgeon all also seem to be the ones that continually flaunt restrictions, this appears to be the way in the real world too. 
 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[graygo]

29 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Not just me:

 

Telegraph: "Sweden Got It Wrong On Herd Immunity"

Guardian: "Swedish Surge in Covid Cases Dashes Immunity Hopes"

NZ Herald: "Sweden's Herd Immunity Strategy Has Failed"

National Post: "Lockdown U-turn in Sweden as COVID-19 cases soar and herd immunity hopes falter"

Royal Society of Medicine: "Covid-19: herd immunity in Sweden fails to materialise"

 

 

Let's see if we can find anything that contradicts your post -

 

The Telegraph - Is Sweden's coronavirus strategy finally silencing the doubters? 
Sweden's Covid-19 case rate has dropped below both Norway and Denmark in a boost for its 'no-lockdown' approach

British Medical Journal - Most countries in Europe have a rapid rise in cases, whereas Sweden does not. Spain, which had one of the most severe lockdowns, has one of the steepest increases.

The National - Sweden’s controversial herd immunity approach to tackling Covid-19 appears at last to be paying off, despite doom-mongers predicting catastrophe for the country.

The Guardian - In Sweden there has not been the same sharp increase in cases experienced elsewhere

The Telegraph - Lockdown supporters cannot bear the thought that Sweden has got it right

Financial News London - Sweden’s coronavirus cases have hit a new low, with health experts claiming that the country has benefitted from its decision to not go into lockdown during the first wave.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

Professor of evidence based science at oxford or vic on jkb - I really don’t know who to believe

 

the professor seems quite clear although measured and does highlight the complexities and is careful to qualify a lot of his statements

 

vic seems a lot more definite using terms like “bogus” etc to rule out and clarify things

 

im leaning towards vic’s more confident delivery

 

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

9 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

What, you mean the Swedes who didn't impose a lockdown, didn't impose face masks, didn't ruin their economy and destroy the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people.  A country that is more or less back to normal, people happily mingling together in pubs, restaurants, public transport, without face masks, and who's death rate is lower than the UK?  How is that a failure?

 

 

 

They and others have said it was a failure, ask them. 
https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-opens-inquiry-into-coronavirus-strategy-of-no-lockdown-2020-7?r=US&IR=T
 

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/11/18/sweden-coronavirus-surge-policy/

 

https://www.rsm.ac.uk/media-releases/2020/covid-19-herd-immunity-in-sweden-fails-to-materialise/

[Ray Gin]

27 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Let's see if we can find anything that contradicts your post -

 

The Telegraph - Is Sweden's coronavirus strategy finally silencing the doubters? 
Sweden's Covid-19 case rate has dropped below both Norway and Denmark in a boost for its 'no-lockdown' approach

British Medical Journal - Most countries in Europe have a rapid rise in cases, whereas Sweden does not. Spain, which had one of the most severe lockdowns, has one of the steepest increases.

The National - Sweden’s controversial herd immunity approach to tackling Covid-19 appears at last to be paying off, despite doom-mongers predicting catastrophe for the country.

The Guardian - In Sweden there has not been the same sharp increase in cases experienced elsewhere

The Telegraph - Lockdown supporters cannot bear the thought that Sweden has got it right

Financial News London - Sweden’s coronavirus cases have hit a new low, with health experts claiming that the country has benefitted from its decision to not go into lockdown during the first wave.

 

How do they contradict my post?

[Victorian]

26 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

Professor of evidence based science at oxford or vic on jkb - I really don’t know who to believe

 

the professor seems quite clear although measured and does highlight the complexities and is careful to qualify a lot of his statements

 

vic seems a lot more definite using terms like “bogus” etc to rule out and clarify things

 

im leaning towards vic’s more confident delivery

 

 

 

 

It's easy to hide behind supposed expert opinion when it suits and to denigrate expert opinion when it doesn't suit.  Easiest cop out in the world.  

[Governor Tarkin]

[Ron Burgundy]

28 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

Professor of evidence based science at oxford or vic on jkb - I really don’t know who to believe

 

the professor seems quite clear although measured and does highlight the complexities and is careful to qualify a lot of his statements

 

vic seems a lot more definite using terms like “bogus” etc to rule out and clarify things

 

im leaning towards vic’s more confident delivery

 

 

 

Football forums and Facebook are where you'll get the real facts. Also typing FACT at the end of a statement 100% qualifies it as a bona fide fact.

[graygo]

11 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

How do they contradict my post?

 

Sorry I should have been clearer. They say the opposite of what you posted.

 

I'm not saying I agree with them, my point is that when something cannot easily be proven it is the easiest thing in the world to find someone on the internet supporting one side or the other.

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

Question for people who know much more than I do:

 

Me and family live and work in France at the moment, but wanted to come to see my parents for 6 days at Christmas. 
 

Planning to fly back, dad will pick us up and we will spend the 6 days at their house (with some walks etc). 
 

Would then head back to Paris. My dad says this is against the rules as we won’t have completed a quarantine. Is that right? I’d have thought it was fine? If stopped, would we be turned around or would my contract and french lease be sufficient to allow us to travel?

I doubt that would be ok to be honest, they've not said what the loosening of restrictions will be yet. Likely just to be a few days, but that also depends on travel from France bring ok at that time too. 
 

[Ray Gin]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Ron has a point, Ray.

 

My in-laws in China have, at no point, been subject to a lockdown, either. They live in the neighbouring province to Wuhan in cheek-by-jowl apartments and work - and have continued to do so throughout the pandemic - in a military factory.

 

 

 

Yes but China shut down the entire city of Wuhan pronto, nobody in, nobody out. Drastic action is what halted the pandemic in its tracks, not it just fizzling out.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ray Gin

[Governor Tarkin]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Not sure what you looked like before lockdown, Guv, but these last few months haven't been kind.

 

Time is a cruel mistress, jonesy.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

8 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's easy to hide behind supposed expert opinion when it suits and to denigrate expert opinion when it doesn't suit.  Easiest cop out in the world.  

 

probably is - not something I’m aware ive done tho - feel free to highlight where u think I have

 

even the experts I choose to believe tend to highlight any merit or rational in opinions they don’t fully agree with

 

some of these guys have worked with witty and vallance before for example and respect them while not fully agreeing with them

 

they also point out that W & v initial approach was more in-keeping with “the science” but they did a dramatic u-turn - they have theories on that and lots of other things which I find quite interesting

 

i could of course come on here and repeat all this interesting stuff and try to pass it off as my own knowledge but I’m no where near that needy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

13 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Football forums and Facebook are where you'll get the real facts. Also typing FACT at the end of a statement 100% qualifies it as a bona fide fact.

 

FACT

[Ray Gin]

2 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Sorry I should have been clearer. They say the opposite of what you posted.

 

I'm not saying I agree with them, my point is that when something cannot easily be proven it is the easiest thing in the world to find someone on the internet supporting one side or the other.

 

I think you missed the posts in the lead up. Lord BJ was suggesting that I was going out on a limb by suggesting the Swedish approach was geared towards achieving herd immunity. My links were examples that this was actually quite a widely held view.

 

If your links were to show the Swedish approach as being viewed as a success, I think you may struggle to find any written in the last couple of weeks, as it has gone tits up.

 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes this may be the case but in the long run Sweden will do much better re people’s mental / physical health / economy of its people . We will have years of untold harm to our population due to lock downs etc 

You can’t really say that at the moment, here is an in depth study showing significant increases in MH problems showing worries about the whole range of problems surrounding Covid causing more harm than the disease or existing health issues. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7503043/

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

I think you missed the posts in the lead up. Lord BJ was suggesting that I was going out on a limb by suggesting the Swedish approach was geared towards achieving herd immunity. My links were examples that this was actually quite a widely held view.

 

If your links were to show the Swedish approach as being viewed as a success, I think you may struggle to find any written in the last couple of weeks, as it has gone tits up.

 

Or at all, the links I put up criticise their response from every one of the last 5 months. 

[AlimOzturk]

3 hours ago, Victorian said:

The herd immunity theory is an absolute scream and completely bogus.  There will be herd immunity but via vaccination,  as it always has to be.  Trying to achieve herd immunity from infection conferred immune response would have been like trying to fill a bucket with water while the bucket had a big hole in the bottom.  As bogus as it comes.

What about other pandemics that have plagued humanity before the inventions of vaccines? Why did they eventually disappear?

[frankblack]

52 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Football forums and Facebook are where you'll get the real facts. Also typing FACT at the end of a statement 100% qualifies it as a bona fide fact.

 

Please don't use that word in caps or you might attract a certain poster back.

[CavySlaveJambo]

These are all off the Kings College Covid Survey this morning. Same picture yesterday.  Mid and East Lothian and the Borders. 
 

So cases are higher than the Scottish Govt are recording.  And they are backing this up with some random testing of their own. 
 
 

 

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

These are all off the Kings College Covid Survey this morning. Same picture yesterday.  Mid and East Lothian and the Borders. 
 

So cases are higher than the Scottish Govt are recording.  And they are backing this up with some random testing of their own. 
 
 

 

So they’re saying Midlothian should be in tier 3 and Edinburgh in tier 4, that’s depressing as is the map. 
Just open everything up though, people need a bevvy with their pals. 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, jonesy said:

Whole thing is a bit of a lottery, and numbers are only going to be broadly indicative at best. There are likely to be plenty of folk wandering about with the virus and completely unaware.

Absolutely, and they’re roaming about infecting folk. Nobody does it on purpose. How do we stop it?

[CavySlaveJambo]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

So they’re saying Midlothian should be in tier 3 and Edinburgh in tier 4, 

Saying most places on the mainland should be tier 3 or 4. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by CavySlaveJambo

[Pasquale for King]

54 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not sure what you looked like before lockdown, Guv, but these last few months haven't been kind.

That was a pop at me, we need more posts like that imo 😢😭😆.