Levein is not the answer ( merged )

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, Walter Bishop said:

I still can’t get my head round people thinking Craig Levein is the “man for the job”! The footballing side of the club, 1st team wise, is an absolute disaster. 

 

After all all the hardships and the fundraising etc this guy has authorised the throwing away of hundreds of thousands of pounds. It’s a disgrace he is still in a job. 

 

Maybe if Kilmarnock beat us on Saturday, which I half expect, people will start to take notice. 

 

To me it's a bit like giving the Captain of the Titanic command of the ship bringing back the survivors.

[Heartbeat]

33 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

How can you guarantee this. Rather a rash statement unless you have insider knowledge from Coral's etc.

We play them on Sunday

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

 

How do you know it was "minimal" cost?

I assumed so because we were still able to bring lots of players in and even paid a fee for one or 2.

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

I assumed so because we were still able to bring lots of players in and even paid a fee for one or 2.

 

 

We could do so due to good ST sales and other revenues generated.

 

Our pathetic signing policy has been a financial drain on the Club!

[frankblack]

18 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

 

Also begs the other question of why did AB allow Levein to take over when it was him that oversaw all these shambolic signings? 

 

We are going round in circles here.  What is your solution, and how can it be afforded?

[Section G The Place To Be]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We are going round in circles here.  What is your solution, and how can it be afforded?

 

TBH I don't have a solution because as I said we can't afford to get rid of him. The solution was  missed at the point of when IC was sacked. Levein should have gone as well, further, IC was sacked too late IMO, he should have gone before the split, or at worst the very end of the season. 

 

We need to get back to traditional proper football structure of a manager running the team. We're in Scotland not bloody La Liga or Serie A, The whole DoF thing was a failure and a very costly one. For the money wasted we could have brought in a big name manager to do the job properly. 

[Boris]

36 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Basically "You caused this shambles Craig - so you sort it!"

So in other words CL isn't bulletproof? 

[Escobar PHM]

22 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

TBH I don't have a solution because as I said we can't afford to get rid of him.

It will undoubtedly make a whole in the finances somewhere along the line. Any unforeseen issues do that to a business unless there is contingency built in.

However, no business can afford in the long term to carry on with paying for incompetence at the top level. It might be painful. It might mean financial damage short term, but if it becomes a necessity, it'll simply have to be done to protect the business long term.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Escobar PHM

[wavydavy]

54 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Which begs the question, how do you get rid of players that are under contract and won't get a better offer elsewhere?

 

The only way is to hope they are stupid enough to leave or pay them to leave like we did with Oshaniwa. Why are we giving unknown players 3 year deals?

[Thomaso]

12 minutes ago, Boris said:

So in other words CL isn't bulletproof? 

 

 

Considering he should have got the bullet for the Cathro disaster, it would seem he is!

[wavydavy]

13 minutes ago, Boris said:

So in other words CL isn't bulletproof? 

 

He will never admit any liabilty.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

 

Considering he should have got the bullet for the Cathro disaster, it would seem he is!

 

4 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

He will never admit any liabilty.

 

So you don't think this is a sort of ultimatum from Budge then?

[dallas]

I don't think he wanted the job in the first place.

[wavydavy]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

So you don't think this is a sort of ultimatum from Budge then?

No, he will just revert back to his old role.

[Boris]

29 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

 

Considering he should have got the bullet for the Cathro disaster, it would seem he is!

 

Yeah, but given your comment regards "it's your shambles, you sort it", that sounds awfully like an ultimatum to me.

 

Perhaps he should have been emptied along with Cathro, but that's not the point is it?  On the one hand you say he's bulletproof, on the other you say he is being forced to do this by Budge.  Which is it?

 

If the latter, then he's clearly not bulletproof.

[Thomaso]

15 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yeah, but given your comment regards "it's your shambles, you sort it", that sounds awfully like an ultimatum to me.

 

Perhaps he should have been emptied along with Cathro, but that's not the point is it?  On the one hand you say he's bulletproof, on the other you say he is being forced to do this by Budge.  Which is it?

 

If the latter, then he's clearly not bulletproof.

 

"It's your shambles, you sort it out - and if you fail I'll fire you" would be an ultimatum.

 

If Levein had not been "bullet proof" she would have fired him when his Cathro experiment turned to dust!   Instead she has given him a 3 year contract.

[Escobar PHM]

41 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

No, he will just revert back to his old role.

How depressing would it be for him to revert back to a role which we don't need and he wasn't very good at anyway.

 

If Ann Budge doesn't pull the trigger on this whilst she is there I hope to hell it happens on Day 1 of the FOH board running the club. God knows what state we'll be in by then if he allowed to carry on.

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

"It's your shambles, you sort it out - and if you fail I'll fire you" would be an ultimatum.

 

If Levein had not been "bullet proof" she would have fired him when his Cathro experiment turned to dust!   Instead she has given him a 3 year contract.

 

If Levein was the power base there, he wouldn't have taken a job he clearly stated he didn't want just a few months before and repeated often before that.

 

The fact that he is now in that job tells you who's wielding the power at Hearts surely ?

 

I think she put him in the last chance saloon and she'll fire him if this doesn't work.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Escobar PHM

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

"It's your shambles, you sort it out - and if you fail I'll fire you" would be an ultimatum.

 

If Levein had not been "bullet proof" she would have fired him when his Cathro experiment turned to dust!   Instead she has given him a 3 year contract.

 

I disagree.  Him taking the reins means it's his arse on the line and he has been put there by Budge, who (I think) trusts him to deliver.  If he doesn't...who knows.

 

I agree it's a bit of a shambles, but the next few games will give us a better idea of where we are at.  One would hope to go unbeaten before we meet Celtic.  Winning most.  Trickiest looks likely to be Motherwell.

[Thomaso]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I disagree.  Him taking the reins means it's his arse on the line and he has been put there by Budge, who (I think) trusts him to deliver.  If he doesn't...who knows.

 

I agree it's a bit of a shambles, but the next few games will give us a better idea of where we are at.  One would hope to go unbeaten before we meet Celtic.  Winning most.  Trickiest looks likely to be Motherwell.

 

Agree with your last comments Boris.  I will be delighted if CL can turn this around in the next 6 games.

[martoon]

6 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

How depressing would it be for him to revert back to a role which we don't need and he wasn't very good at anyway.

 

If Ann Budge doesn't pull the trigger on this whilst she is there I hope to hell it happens on Day 1 of the FOH board running the club. God knows what state we'll be in by then if he allowed to carry on.

 

That's what worries and depresses me. CL goes back to dof, insists on a rookie coach, who must work with the coaching "dream team" already in situ and we continue to stumble on indefinitely. 

 

CL will not change his approach in any way. He'll stick to it rigidly, no matter how much it's failing. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, martoon said:

 

That's what worries and depresses me. CL goes back to dof, insists on a rookie coach, who must work with the coaching "dream team" already in situ and we continue to stumble on indefinitely. 

 

CL will not change his approach in any way. He'll stick to it rigidly, no matter how much it's failing. 

 

Is it failing?  There have been two coaches, Neilson and Cathro.  Arguably one was very successful, the other an abject failure. So 1-1 in terms of success and failure.  

 

If it were to fail again as spectacularly as the cathro "era" then I'd be surprised if things continued as they are.

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Is it failing?  There have been two coaches, Neilson and Cathro.  Arguably one was very successful, the other an abject failure. So 1-1 in terms of success and failure.  

 

If it were to fail again as spectacularly as the cathro "era" then I'd be surprised if things continued as they are.

Clearly someone important thinks its failing as it hasn't been carried on with. I know who and what we ended up with but Ann Budge was certainly quoted as saying 'looking for an experienced head coach' before we discovered, in an amazing eureka moment, that we already employed the best man for the job.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Clearly someone important thinks its failing as it hasn't been carried on with. I know who and what we ended up with but Ann Budge was certainly quoted as saying 'looking for an experienced head coach' before we discovered, in an amazing eureka moment, that we already employed the best man for the job.

 

So you are happy that the "experiment" is over and we have reverted to a more traditional model of football management structure?

[martoon]

It's failing, Boris. If it wasn't we'd all be happy (we'll, most of us ). 

 

That's not to say it has failed. I posted earlier in this thread that, in his defence, we've had a difficult start away from Tynecastle. He'll have the opportunity soon to alter his tactics, approach etc.  and, hopefully, improve our results but I have my doubts. 

 

I sincerely hope the doubts are misplaced. 

[Thomaso]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Is it failing?  There have been two coaches, Neilson and Cathro.  Arguably one was very successful, the other an abject failure. So 1-1 in terms of success and failure.  

 

If it were to fail again as spectacularly as the cathro "era" then I'd be surprised if things continued as they are.

 

 

Boris - we are now 31/2 years into Levein's grand 5 year plan - we are going backwards.  That to me points to as a failing plan.

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So you are happy that the "experiment" is over and we have reverted to a more traditional model of football management structure?

 

Right structure - wrong man.

[Escobar PHM]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So you are happy that the "experiment" is over and we have reverted to a more traditional model of football management structure?

I couldn't give a toss about the structure if I'm honest. As long as we have the highest level of competence and talent within the structure and we can assemble a squad of 18-22 competent men who want to play and are good enough to play for us and challenge for top 4 and beyond, I don't really think who answers to who or who does what, is that important. If we were winning games and mixing in with the top 4, no one would be talking about this 'structure'

 

I think the best structure would be a football brain at CEO/board level who doesn't involve himself in the day to day football side at all but controls the budgets and does the contractual stuff, with a traditional 'football manager' under him who does only the football matters, and has his own (his choice) team of coaches and scouts underneath him.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Escobar PHM

[martoon]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

I couldn't give a toss about the structure if I'm honest. As long as we have the highest level of competence and talent within the structure and we can assemble a squad of 18-22 men who want to play and are good enough to play for us and challenge for top 4 and beyond, I don't really think who answers to who or who does what, is that important. If we were winning games and pushing the top 4, no one would be talking about this 'structure'

 

I think the best structure would be a football brain at CEO/board level who doesn't involve himself in the football side at all but controls the budgets and does the contractual stuff, with a traditional 'football manager' under him who does only the football matters, and has his own (his choice) team of coaches and scouts underneath him.

 

Seconded. 

[bobskeldon]

4 hours ago, Clerry Jambo said:

We can all see the problems Mitch just think a run of “hame gemmes” can hopefully turn things around a bit. If not then yes he would need to go, but don’t fancy Daly or Fox either!!

Why do people who think playing at Tynecastle will make any difference and that our problems are to do with playing so many games 'away'?

We were murder at Tynecastle, Dunfermline played us off the park on our own pitch!!!  As previously stated and as someone who has been watching Hearts (inc many poor teams) for 57 years, I am finished until CL is gone!

[Thomaso]

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Edited October 31, 2017 by Thomaso

[Thomaso]

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Edited October 31, 2017 by Thomaso

[wavydavy]

39 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

 

If Levein was the power base there, he wouldn't have taken a job he clearly stated he didn't want just a few months before and repeated often before that.

 

The fact that he is now in that job tells you who's wielding the power at Hearts surely ?

 

I think she put him in the last chance saloon and she'll fire him if this doesn't work.

 

He is still a member of the Hearts Board which makes it extremely difficult for her to sack him completely.

 

She may replace him as the coach but it will not be so easy to remove him totally. We would end up with him still on the board and our current coaches in charge which in truth is not much different to where we are at the moment.

 

He has shown that he is stubborn and will hang on in there to get as much as possible out of us just like he did with the Scotland job when they sacked him. 

[Thomaso]

To brighten up the thread - great news that Hughes has been selected in the NI squad - really nice of us to pay this guys wages, and get him fit so he can add to his International caps.......

 

 

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

He is still a member of the Hearts Board which makes it extremely difficult for her to sack him completely.

 

She may replace him as the coach but it will not be so easy to remove him totally. We would end up with him still on the board and our current coaches in charge which in truth is not much different to where we are at the moment.

 

He has shown that he is stubborn and will hang on in there to get as much as possible out of us just like he did with the Scotland job when they sacked him. 

 

I thought putting Levein on the Board was just asking for trouble down the line.

[wavydavy]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I thought putting Levein on the Board was just asking for trouble down the line.

 

It was and will come back to bite us all.

[jamboozy]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

To brighten up the thread - great news that Hughes has been selected in the NI squad - really nice of us to pay this guys wages, and get him fit so he can add to his International caps.......

 

 

I thought this all along, he will suddenly be fit for his country then have a relapse right after.

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I thought putting Levein on the Board was just asking for trouble down the line.

 

In what way?

 

9 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

It was and will come back to bite us all.

 

Same question.

[wavydavy]

9 minutes ago, jamboozy said:

I thought this all along, he will suddenly be fit for his country then have a relapse right after.

 

They will be taking a risk playing him as he has not played for a while and at his age may struggle to last and no doubt will aggrevate his injury.

[Escobar PHM]

17 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

He is still a member of the Hearts Board which makes it extremely difficult for her to sack him completely.

 

She may replace him as the coach but it will not be so easy to remove him totally. We would end up with him still on the board and our current coaches in charge which in truth is not much different to where we are at the moment.

 

He has shown that he is stubborn and will hang on in there to get as much as possible out of us just like he did with the Scotland job when they sacked him. 

Removing him from the board is simply a majority vote requirement by the rest of the board

[wavydavy]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

In what way?

 

 

Same question.

 

It is a relatively simple process to remove a coach from his role if he does not perform to expecations. The down side being that if it is before the end of his contract thencompensation has to be agreed and paid.

 

I don't know of many if any situations where any club has ever had a Coach who is also on the Clubs Board. It is a far more difficult thing to remove someone from a Board than as a Coach.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by wavydavy
typo

[Escobar PHM]

2 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

It is a relativeky simple process to remove a coach from his role if he does not perform to expecations. The down side being that if it is before the end of his contract thencompensation has to be agreed and paid.

 

I don't know of many if any situations where any club has ever had a Caoch who is also on the Clubs Board. It is a far more difficult thing to remove someone from a Board than as a Coach.

 

 

His position on the board is not part of his paid employment. Removing him from the board is as easy as appointing him to it was. A simple majority vote by those entitled to vote

Edited October 31, 2017 by Escobar PHM

[Boris]

1 minute ago, wavydavy said:

 

It is a relatively simple process to remove a coach from his role if he does not perform to expecations. The down side being that if it is before the end of his contract thencompensation has to be agreed and paid.

 

I don't know of many if any situations where any club has ever had a Coach who is also on the Clubs Board. It is a far more difficult thing to remove someone from a Board than as a Coach.

 

 

 

I'm no expert of governanceor corporate law so know not how easy or hard removing a director is.  Given a director and a football manager are different roles, why would being sacked as the latter affect the former?  Strange as it may seem, of course.  One would also think that if fired as manager, then resignation from the board would soon follow, assuming he wasn't wanted at that level.

 

What damage can one director do?  Surely the rest of the board can outvote him?

[Erik]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

I agree it's a bit of a shambles, but the next few games will give us a better idea of where we are at.  One would hope to go unbeaten before we meet Celtic.  Winning most.  Trickiest looks likely to be Motherwell.

 

Killie

Partick

Ross County

Accies

Motherwell

Dundee

 

Basically the complete bottom half of the table plus Motherwell chucked in.

 

I would agree that we absolutely SHOULD be looking to be unbeaten before meeting Celtic from here - but right now I just cannot see that happening, even with my most optimistic maroon tinted specs on.

 

At the moment, from those 6 matches, I could probably see 2 wins, 2 draw and 2 losses from that.

 

Of course, I would love to be proven wrong.

[Escobar PHM]

10 minutes ago, Erik said:

 

Killie

Partick

Ross County

Accies

Motherwell

Dundee

 

Basically the complete bottom half of the table plus Motherwell chucked in.

 

I would agree that we absolutely SHOULD be looking to be unbeaten before meeting Celtic from here - but right now I just cannot see that happening, even with my most optimistic maroon tinted specs on.

 

At the moment, from those 6 matches, I could probably see 2 wins, 2 draw and 2 losses from that.

 

Of course, I would love to be proven wrong.

4 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat IMO. Enough to keep him in a job for now.

The 4 game run right after those 6 looks very tough though.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Escobar PHM

[wavydavy]

49 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Removing him from the board is simply a majority vote requirement by the rest of the board

 

Is it as simple as that? There are different levels of Directors on our Board is there not. I hope you are correct though.

[wavydavy]

43 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I'm no expert of governanceor corporate law so know not how easy or hard removing a director is.  Given a director and a football manager are different roles, why would being sacked as the latter affect the former?  Strange as it may seem, of course.  One would also think that if fired as manager, then resignation from the board would soon follow, assuming he wasn't wanted at that level.

 

What damage can one director do?  Surely the rest of the board can outvote him?

 

I don't know the answer as it is a hypothetical point however as AB seems to have so much respect and dependance on CL then she may want him retained on the Board.

 

As I mentioned previously he could be removed from the Coaching role and replaced with Daly and Fox (which is basically what happens at the moment) but retained on the board because AB can see value in retaining his services away from the day to day running on the team.

 

That is my fear although I would hope that if the day ever arises where the club feel he should go then I would hope it is a clean break.

 

I like you am no expert on the workings of Boardrooms and removal of Directors etc however I do believe that CL along with AB and her Partner all all Executive Directors which gives them powers that the other directors don't have. What those powers are I have no idea but i believe there is a significant difference.

[wavydavy]

55 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

His position on the board is not part of his paid employment. Removing him from the board is as easy as appointing him to it was. A simple majority vote by those entitled to vote

 

Are you sure about that statement? So are you saying that as an Executive Director of Hearts FC his only remuneration is as the Part Time Coach?

[jamboozy]

1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

They will be taking a risk playing him as he has not played for a while and at his age may struggle to last and no doubt will aggrevate his injury.

No doubt at all Davy, he is a positive influence on the team when he's fit but at his age he takes longer to heal.

I know how he feels .

[Escobar PHM]

29 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Are you sure about that statement? So are you saying that as an Executive Director of Hearts FC his only remuneration is as the Part Time Coach?

I'm suggesting that his job title is still director of football and that's what he is remunerated for and that alone. Ann Budge decided that position came with a seat on the board, the main reason being presumably that no one else on the board had football knowledge and experience and he did.

 

I'm not sure if he has voting rights or even shares. Board member or not, there are no barriers to getting rid of him apart from what he needs as a pay off.