Indy Ref Part Deux

[Boris]

You seriously think the voters of Scotland can stand the whinging complaining voice of Sturgeon for another 3 years and then vote her back in!! 

 

Sturgeon wasn't voted in at a Westminster election.

 

And for all your dismisal of Sturgeon and the SNP, why aren't they flagging in the polls?

[Boris]

I think the fact is people would be voting for something different than last time - e.g. vote for a party to remain in the UK post Brexit or vote for a party that will have us out of the UK when we are already out of Europe.

 

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.  The middle classes will vote for the more secure option, and the SNP will have set their campaign backwards 20 years.

 

Because post brexit Britain is a secure option?

[jambo lodge]

Sturgeon wasn't voted in at a Westminster election.

 

And for all your dismisal of Sturgeon and the SNP, why aren't they flagging in the polls?

 

Everything done in the SNP is done in the name of Sturgeon, she does have that much control over her party........with the exception of Salmond. Elections are 3 years away sufficient time for people to get tired of the grandstanding of MP's at Westminster and blaming the inadequacies of Scotland on nasty Tories..

[jambo lodge]

Because post brexit Britain is a secure option?

 

Looking forward to people like you eating humble pie when the UK gets a bespoke great deal with Europe, because it makes sense for all concerned.

[JKBMod 10]

After a mammoth clean-up job several posters have been issued with sabbaticals from this thread. Please let this be the last time we have to ask you all to keep it civil so avoid aggressive language and making personal or provocative digs.

 

Some of the discussion on here is interesting and informative, and we don't want to have to shut down a thread on such an important and relevant topic. We also don't plan on having to moderate it heavily every day for the next two years so in future warning points are likely to be issued rather than thread bans. Thanks for your cooperation.

[Boris]

Looking forward to people like you eating humble pie when the UK gets a bespoke great deal with Europe, because it makes sense for all concerned.

 

If it is a great deal then brilliant.  I just can't see it, to be honest.  Still ?350m per week extra for the NHS, right?  And the Govt to replace all current EU funding and support, right?  That was the deal wasn't it?

 

Tory policy will be enough to keep peoples minds focussed.

[Thunderstruck]

In what way?

 

That was the MO in the 70's and prior to Holyrood, so still another avenue.

Quite simply, in a General Election the number of seats won is not proportionate to the number of votes cast. You suggested that a majority of seats equals a mandate to break away. I'm sure you know how FPTP works.

[frankblack]

Because post brexit Britain is a secure option?

 

It will be more secure than being both out of Europe and the UK.

 

Jobs will be transferred down south by the tens of thousands in the service sector to reach their major target market.

[jambo lodge]

If it is a great deal then brilliant.  I just can't see it, to be honest.  Still ?350m per week extra for the NHS, right?  And the Govt to replace all current EU funding and support, right?  That was the deal wasn't it?

 

Tory policy will be enough to keep peoples minds focussed.

 

There is no doubt that there will be direct savings from the membership fee  , some of which will require to go to farming sunsidies etc.........more power to Holyrood as a result. The savings will more than compensate for "lost "Structural Funds. The area which will require most thought is in Research and Development where joint collaborations between Universities brings benefit to all. A separate/reciprocal membership fee to access these funds would be of benefit to the EU as well.

Tory policies are doing just fine thank you.  

[AlphonseCapone]

Scotlands.

Ah, it's not a large percentage of Scotland's population though tbf, not using the same maths that other folk do on this thread. It goes something like this;

 

Percentage of Tory vote (20%~) x voter turnout = not very many people.

[HaymarketJambo]

What would actually happen is that people would vote tactically to get the SNP out of enough seats that they cannot get Independence through.  Edinburgh West, which is my constituency, would almost certainly go back to Lib Dems after the problems with Michelle Thompson.

 

You make a good point about Edinburgh West, the SNP have only themselves to blame.

 

The Lib Dems are only on 4% on that yougov poll and the SNP on 54% there most certainly would have to be tactical voting in Edinburgh West to kick out the SNP?    

[jack D and coke]

Prof Graeme Roy, Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute , Strathclyde, published an excellent article yesterday on how the GERS figures are constructed. As someone who has worked on the GERS figures he knows more than most the accuracy of these figures and the dangers in just dismissing them as some have tried to do in recent days. Perhaps someone with more technical skill than I have could post the link.

It's been posted already. Maybe not on this thread though might be SNP nonsense thread.

Incidentally I noticed this this morning, is this correct?

[AlphonseCapone]

It's been posted already. Maybe not on this thread though might be SNP nonsense thread.

Incidentally I noticed this this morning, is this correct?

Wasn't it confirmed by Mundell that though the Scots parliament didn't need to vote on article 50 triggering, any issue that affects devolved arrangements (any thing that might come up in negotiations etc) legally requires the consent of the devolved parliament involved. This is where the SNP may really have some leverage.

 

I don't remember it all exactly but someone else might know more concretely.

[IMac]

You make a good point about Edinburgh West, the SNP have only themselves to blame.

 

The Lib Dems are only on 4% on that yougov poll and the SNP on 54% there most certainly would have to be tactical voting in Edinburgh West to kick out the SNP?    

Do you know that political views are not homogeneous across Scotland? Could it be that in some constituency there are more LD voters than others? I know that doesn't fit into your 'SNP are the voice of Scotland' simple view of politics. 

[HaymarketJambo]

Do you know that political views are not homogeneous across Scotland? Could it be that in some constituency there are more LD voters than others? I know that doesn't fit into your 'SNP are the voice of Scotland' simple view of politics. 

 

I'll tell you what I do know is that the SNP have 54 MP's at Westminster and won last year's Scottish Elections.

The Lib Dems have only a mighty one MP at Westminster.   

[frankblack]

You make a good point about Edinburgh West, the SNP have only themselves to blame.

 

The Lib Dems are only on 4% on that yougov poll and the SNP on 54% there most certainly would have to be tactical voting in Edinburgh West to kick out the SNP?    

 

Lib Dems took the seat from the SNP in Holyrood last year.

[AlphonseCapone]

Do you know that political views are not homogeneous across Scotland? Could it be that in some constituency there are more LD voters than others? I know that doesn't fit into your 'SNP are the voice of Scotland' simple view of politics.

You're a Lib Dem man actually, can you explain to me the logic of wanting a second referendum on the EU and voting against a second Scottish Independence one based on the fact we've had one?

[HaymarketJambo]

Lib Dems took the seat from the SNP in Holyrood last year.

 

And?

[manaliveits105]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

[deesidejambo]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

That's consistently been the case. That's why Nicola changed her wording from "the will of the Scottish People" to "The will of the Scottish Parliament"

 

She knows she is not aligned to the real will of the people.

 

And if interest is that many No voters like myself actually want a Ref asap to get this issue put toned.

[Don Dan]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

and the Greens who have sold their soul to the devil.

[Boris]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

 

This was the question

 

When should the next Scottish independence referendum be? Before we leave the EU or after? #indyref2 #wrightstuff

 

So it would be safe tos ay from it that 59% want the referendum AFTER we leave the EU.

 

We will leave the EU in approximately 2 years.  Which is pretty much the timescale that the Scottish Govt put forward for the referendum.

 

Good to see a commanding majority wanting the referendum though!

[jambo lodge]

Wasn't it confirmed by Mundell that though the Scots parliament didn't need to vote on article 50 triggering, any issue that affects devolved arrangements (any thing that might come up in negotiations etc) legally requires the consent of the devolved parliament involved. This is where the SNP may really have some leverage.

 

I don't remember it all exactly but someone else might know more concretely.

 

Did the Supreme Court not cover that in January when it ruled devolved parliaments need not be consulted?

[Unknown user]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

41% of people who can stand Matthew wright - I'm not sure how representative that really is!

[Maroon Sailor]

and the Greens who have sold their soul to the devil.

Slimey Greens

 

Harvie is as much use as half a coat hanger but somehow he counts in getting this vote passed

[Boris]

Slimey Greens

 

Harvie is as much use as half a coat hanger but somehow he counts in getting this vote passed

 

Aye, democracy is rubbish, eh?

[Boris]

Especially when that waste of a sperm bag gets the power to make all the difference

 

Some MSP's are more worthy than others then?

 

For all your comments toward the Greens, I'm sure others would feel the same about the Tories, or Labour, or Libs or SNP etc etc etc

 

You don't agree with it, fine, but that's the way things work in parliamentary democracies.

[Boris]

Very eloquently put. I'm not sure what exactly Patrick Harvie has done to get the massive amounts of personal abuse I have seen over the last few weeks, I get why people might not like the way they have voted for this section 30, but why it has got personal I have no idea.

 

For being so confident that NO will win the referendum, NO supporters seem to be getting all hot under the collar about it.  Surely the attitude should be bring it on, and that buries it for the time being?

 

Or is there a tightening of the collective unionist sphincter about this?

[Don Dan]

Scottish Greens manifesto. Hypocrites! The Tory's were made to back down when they went against their manifesto commitment. No such frenzie or rage with this glaring side step. What evidence is there that "the will of the Scottish people" want an indy2?

 

"Scotland can champion a more open and participative law-making process: Citizens as legislators. Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens? preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence."

[Jambo, Goodbye]

Especially when that waste of a sperm bag gets the power to make all the difference

Make what difference exactly?

 

Had the green party abstained then the vote would have still gone through 63 to 59.

 

Furthermore, if 6 MSP's get elected for a party known for being pro-independent, then what exactly is so unfair?

[luckydug]

You seriously think the voters of Scotland can stand the whinging complaining voice of Sturgeon for another 3 years and then vote her back in!!

 

That's just your own (biased) opinion of Nicola Sturgeon. Doesn't mean a thing.

[deesidejambo]

For being so confident that NO will win the referendum, NO supporters seem to be getting all hot under the collar about it. Surely the attitude should be bring it on, and that buries it for the time being?

 

Or is there a tightening of the collective unionist sphincter about this?

I have frequently said do it now to get it over and done with.

 

The divisiveness is not healthy for the country as a whole.

 

You seem to enjoy it but my family are half English and are depressed by the whole thing, including the anti-English part.

[Space Mackerel]

It's been posted already. Maybe not on this thread though might be SNP nonsense thread.

Incidentally I noticed this this morning, is this correct?

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but as usual I was shouted down and branded nonsense.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Space Mackerel]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll? [emoji23]

 

That'll be all the housewives and junkies views then?

[frankblack]

It's been posted already. Maybe not on this thread though might be SNP nonsense thread.

Incidentally I noticed this this morning, is this correct?

 

TM has already said that no devolved powers would be affected by Brexit negotiations - but more powers coming back from the EU will be devolved.  Straw clutching at its best in this Facebook post.

[Space Mackerel]

So NI has a get out clause for Brexit. Interesting stuff.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15187742.David_Davis_admits_Northern_Ireland_has_a_Brexit_get_out/

[luckyBatistuta]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll - only 41% want a referendum which is probably about right .- are you listening Jimmy Krankie ?

  

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll? [emoji23]

That'll be all the housewives and junkies views then?

But polls are always right, we all know that.

[frankblack]

So NI has a get out clause for Brexit. Interesting stuff.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15187742.David_Davis_admits_Northern_Ireland_has_a_Brexit_get_out/

 

Maybe we just want to cut them adrift to fight among themselves forever?  Very different situation with an EU border, and won't be happening in Scotland as we are leaving the EU.

[Space Mackerel]

Maybe we just want to cut them adrift to fight among themselves forever? Very different situation with an EU border, and won't be happening in Scotland as we are leaving the EU.

So it looks like a United Ireland in the future plus an independent Scotland.

 

You're watching the death of the UK in slow motion, it's a certainty for me.

[Space Mackerel]

TM has already said that no devolved powers would be affected by Brexit negotiations - but more powers coming back from the EU will be devolved. Straw clutching at its best in this Facebook post.

I'm not sure you're grasping the bigger picture as far as the EU negotiations go and what TM has to offer now the threat of another referendum lies in wait up here.

[AlphonseCapone]

Did the Supreme Court not cover that in January when it ruled devolved parliaments need not be consulted?

Different thing. They need not be consulted on triggering article 50.

 

But under UK law, changes to any devolution settlements require the consent of said devolved set-up, Mundell confirmed this; https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/26/scottish-parliament-get-say-great-repeal-bill-will-repatriate/amp/

[AlphonseCapone]

TM has already said that no devolved powers would be affected by Brexit negotiations - but more powers coming back from the EU will be devolved. Straw clutching at its best in this Facebook post.

Not the same thing. They need consent under the Sewel convention for the great repeal bill; https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/26/scottish-parliament-get-say-great-repeal-bill-will-repatriate/amp/

 

Straw man indeed.

[Boris]

I have frequently said do it now to get it over and done with.

 

The divisiveness is not healthy for the country as a whole.

 

You seem to enjoy it but my family are half English and are depressed by the whole thing, including the anti-English part.

 

I wouldn't say I enjoy it, and I certainly don't want division (that said, all politics is divisive, surely?) but this is a consequence of Cameron's stupid attempts to resolve his own party's squabbles.  A Pontious Pilate moment if ever there was one, and yet again Barabas gets the vote!

[frankblack]

Not the same thing. They need consent under the Sewel convention for the great repeal bill; https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/26/scottish-parliament-get-say-great-repeal-bill-will-repatriate/amp/

 

Straw man indeed.

 

If the SNP and their hapless green chums decide to vote that down out of spite then they would find that the parliament would be dissolved and Westminster would rule until a new Holyrood election is called.

 

At the end of the day the SNP would lose but then they don't want to use the new powers they have already been granted from Westminster, for fear they might be held accountable.

 

I am not convinced that the Greens would vote down additional powers that gave them greater control of the environment, though.

[Boris]

If the SNP and their hapless green chums decide to vote that down out of spite then they would find that the parliament would be dissolved and Westminster would rule until a new Holyrood election is called.

 

At the end of the day the SNP would lose but then they don't want to use the new powers they have already been granted from Westminster, for fear they might be held accountable.

 

I am not convinced that the Greens would vote down additional powers that gave them greater control of the environment, though.

 

And who would dissolve the Scottish Parliament?  Westminster?  Brave move!

[frankblack]

And who would dissolve the Scottish Parliament?  Westminster?  Brave move!

 

That is the last resort if the SNP try to wreck the democratic will of the people of the UK and their government.  It would be a supreme act of stupidity on the SNP to play that game.

 

I guess the SNP could dissolve the Holyrood Parliament and call a new election themselves if they don't want to work with the UK government.

[Boris]

That is the last resort if the SNP try to wreck the democratic will of the people of the UK and their government.  It would be a supreme act of stupidity on the SNP to play that game.

 

OK, so the devolved areas have a say, but you are saying that it is worthless because Westminster says so?

 

We should just take the pat on the head and accept the sugar lump?

 

Each to their own.

[frankblack]

OK, so the devolved areas have a say, but you are saying that it is worthless because Westminster says so?

 

We should just take the pat on the head and accept the sugar lump?

 

Each to their own.

 

The devolved areas have a say as long as what they are asking for is not a direct conflict with Brexit like the SNPs demands were.  However I think Brexit was just another excuse to get a second shot at an Indy referendum.

 

At this time of negotiating with the EU the UK government isn't going to roll over to SNP demands or the EU negotiators will walk all over them.

[Boris]

The devolved areas have a say as long as what they are asking for is not a direct conflict with Brexit like the SNPs demands were.  However I think Brexit was just another excuse to get a second shot at an Indy referendum.

 

At this time of negotiating with the EU the UK government isn't going to roll over to SNP demands or the EU negotiators will walk all over them.

 

But a devolved power is a devolved power and the responsibility of that devolved authority.  But you seem to argue that Westminster can at its whim supersede that.

 

And you don't find that threatening or undemocratic?

[Justin Z]

Catching up a bit on the thread but even before doing so I had been thinking and something had me pretty mightily confused.

 

It's that Scots who dislike Sturgeon are angry that she's led the call for a second referendum.

 

Why, exactly?  Sturgeon has a very specific duty to the people of Scotland as First Minister.  By calling the initial referendum, she was able to get Westminster to commit to Devo Max, and to various powers and concessions in the form of The Vow.

 

This was a coup for her constituency--a great benefit to all of you.  Like her or not, she did her job very well in that respect, and secured a massive boon for Scotland.  However, Westminster has delivered on none of it.  In France I've just learned there's a term for Westminsters/England's duplicity, because it's been such a common historical theme: Perfide Albion.

 

So perhaps instead of being upset at this referendum, you should be upset that the promises Sturgeon so artfully obtained have all been broken, and the benefits to Scotland that were supposed to materialise have not because of those broken promises.  She can hardly just let that slide, can she?  She has to continue to try to get the absolute best for Scotland, doesn't she?  Note that answering these questions in the affirmative in no way necessarily means you agree with how she accomplishes this or what "the best" is, even at the most fundamental level.

 

But considering them might help clear your mind a bit as to where your ire really ought to be placed.