Indy Ref Part Deux

[jambo lodge]

But a devolved power is a devolved power and the responsibility of that devolved authority.  But you seem to argue that Westminster can at its whim supersede that.

 

And you don't find that threatening or undemocratic?

 

Scotland is part of the democratic union of the United Kingdom. two years ago we had a referendum in Scotland and by a democratic majority decided to stay in the UK......a once in a lifetime/generation referendum. In advance of the EU referendum the SNP thought it a great wheeze to put into their manifesto the right to call for another referendum if their was a material change in UK circumstances ( in the full knowledge that Brexit might give them just that).The EU referendum was duly held and by democratic means the UK voted to get out of Europe. I have no doubt that the UK has been informing/discussing/negotiating with the SNP/Government at every turn and will continue to do so. For public consumption however the SNP will continue to complain about one grievance after another and when there isn't one they will invent one.     

[markphmfc]

.

[jambos are go!]

Catching up a bit on the thread but even before doing so I had been thinking and something had me pretty mightily confused.

 

It's that Scots who dislike Sturgeon are angry that she's led the call for a second referendum.

 

Why, exactly?  Sturgeon has a very specific duty to the people of Scotland as First Minister.  By calling the initial referendum, she was able to get Westminster to commit to Devo Max, and to various powers and concessions in the form of The Vow.

 

This was a coup for her constituency--a great benefit to all of you.  Like her or not, she did her job very well in that respect, and secured a massive boon for Scotland.  However, Westminster has delivered on none of it.  In France I've just learned there's a term for Westminsters/England's duplicity, because it's been such a common historical theme: Perfide Albion.

 

So perhaps instead of being upset at this referendum, you should be upset that the promises Sturgeon so artfully obtained have all been broken, and the benefits to Scotland that were supposed to materialise have not because of those broken promises.  She can hardly just let that slide, can she?  She has to continue to try to get the absolute best for Scotland, doesn't she?  Note that answering these questions in the affirmative in no way necessarily means you agree with how she accomplishes this or what "the best" is, even at the most fundamental level.

 

But considering them might help clear your mind a bit as to where your ire really ought to be placed.

You seem to be unaware that Alex Salmond was the leader of the SNP at the last referendum. Sturgeon main role was to produce the White Paper on Scotlands future which I think it fair to say was largely discredited and contributed to their substantial defeat in said referendum.

[Thunderstruck]

Catching up a bit on the thread but even before doing so I had been thinking and something had me pretty mightily confused.

 

It's that Scots who dislike Sturgeon are angry that she's led the call for a second referendum.

 

Why, exactly? Sturgeon has a very specific duty to the people of Scotland as First Minister. By calling the initial referendum, she was able to get Westminster to commit to Devo Max, and to various powers and concessions in the form of The Vow.

 

This was a coup for her constituency--a great benefit to all of you. Like her or not, she did her job very well in that respect, and secured a massive boon for Scotland. However, Westminster has delivered on none of it. In France I've just learned there's a term for Westminsters/England's duplicity, because it's been such a common historical theme: Perfide Albion.

 

So perhaps instead of being upset at this referendum, you should be upset that the promises Sturgeon so artfully obtained have all been broken, and the benefits to Scotland that were supposed to materialise have not because of those broken promises. She can hardly just let that slide, can she? She has to continue to try to get the absolute best for Scotland, doesn't she? Note that answering these questions in the affirmative in no way necessarily means you agree with how she accomplishes this or what "the best" is, even at the most fundamental level.

 

But considering them might help clear your mind a bit as to where your ire really ought to be placed.

Bunkum.

 

She never "artfully" or otherwise sought extra powers.

 

What powers promised have not been delivered?

 

Do you recall the Smith Commission?

 

Pillar 1: Providing for a durable but responsive constitutional settlement for the governance of Scotland

 

Pillar 2: Delivering prosperity, a healthy economy, jobs, and social justice

 

Pillar 3: Strengthening the financial responsibility of the Scottish Parliament

 

The following list are the issues discussed within the Heads of Agreement:

 

Welfare ? excluding pensions

VAT relief for charities

Crown Estate

Energy

Asylum support

Remaining powers over transport

Charity regulation

Employability

Equality law

Consumer protection

Employment law

Misuse of Drugs Act

Scottish elections and democracy

Tax

 

The truth ignored by SNP adherents is that extra powers were the last thing that the SNP wanted - they were barely able to cope with those they had prior to 2014.

 

It is now clear to an increasing number of Scots that these imposters, continually hiding behind their "Freedom" banners "couldnae run a raffle".

[jambos are go!]

But a devolved power is a devolved power and the responsibility of that devolved authority.  But you seem to argue that Westminster can at its whim supersede that.

 

And you don't find that threatening or undemocratic?

Power devolved is power retained. Westminster is on the verge of shutting down Storment in case you had not noticed. In Scotland the primacy of the UK Parliament was legitimised when Scotland clearly voted to remain in the UK.

[Justin Z]

You seem to be unaware that Alex Salmond was the leader of the SNP at the last referendum. Sturgeon main role was to produce the White Paper on Scotlands future which I think it fair to say was largely discredited and contributed to their substantial defeat in said referendum.

 

Not unaware, just forgetful and mixing up thoughts between the previous and current referenda and communicating those thoughts poorly, while also under the weather.

 

Thanks for the reminder/clarity.  It's been interesting figuring out this stuff as I go along, if also a minefield!

[Pans Jambo]

Bunkum.

 

She never "artfully" or otherwise sought extra powers.

 

What powers promised have not been delivered?

 

Do you recall the Smith Commission?

 

 

The truth ignored by SNP adherents is that extra powers were the last thing that the SNP wanted - they were barely able to cope with those they had prior to 2014.

 

It is now clear to an increasing number of Scots that these imposters, continually hiding behind their "Freedom" banners "couldnae run a raffle".

'Couldnae run a raffle'?

 

Sick man of Europe.

 

Who was running the country for decades when that was Scotlands moniker? The Yoons have had their chance and blew it!

[luckydug]

You seem to be unaware that Alex Salmond was the leader of the SNP at the last referendum. Sturgeon main role was to produce the White Paper on Scotlands future which I think it fair to say was largely discredited and contributed to their substantial defeat in said referendum.

 

That substantial defeat would be overturned with a 5% swing.

Substantial would be something like 70/30

If it was so substantial why are Unionists

so scared of a 2nd referendum.

[Thunderstruck]

'Couldnae run a raffle'?

 

Sick man of Europe.

 

Who was running the country for decades when that was Scotlands moniker? The Yoons have had their chance and blew it!

And diverting 15% of the NHS Scotland Barnett funding is the way to fix the chronic health issues?

 

Sorry, I forgot about the "Health Tax" levied on supermarkets selling Cigarettes and Alcohol but forget how much of that was actually spent on Health. Maybe you could remind me.

 

Greater strides were made in improving health and wellbeing in the 20 years before the Scottish Parliament was established than since. It is one giant and expensive self-licking ice cream.

[deesidejambo]

That substantial defeat would be overturned with a 5% swing.

Substantial would be something like 70/30

If it was so substantial why are Unionists

so scared of a 2nd referendum.

They arnt.  Many of those who want a second referendum asap are unionists.   I'm keen on a referendum asap.  It will be No and it will kick Nicola into the long grass for, ahem, a generation.

[Scallywag]

You seem to be unaware that Alex Salmond was the leader of the SNP at the last referendum. Sturgeon main role was to produce the White Paper on Scotlands future which I think it fair to say was largely discredited and contributed to their substantial defeat in said referendum.

Producing the White Paper was an extremely difficult thing to do, it is to the SNP's credit that they did it to  give the public details of their proposal for Independence. If only the UK Government had done the same prior to the Brexit vote

.

[deesidejambo]

Channel 5 Wright Stuff poll? [emoji23]

 

That'll be all the housewives and junkies views then?

The result is similar to a significant number of other polls, all consistently showing the result between 30 and 40% wanting another referendum in the near future.

 

But if you think the whole country are housewives and junkies crack on.

 

Of course in Space world the real number of Scots wanting another referendum is 100%.

[deesidejambo]

Producing the White Paper was an extremely difficult thing to do, it is to the SNP's credit that they did it to  give the public details of their proposal for Independence. If only the UK Government had done the same prior to the Brexit vote

.

Correct. The Brexit vote was based on no substantial proposals or evidence on what would happen in the event of a Leave vote.  People voted "blind" and I think many predicted the result would be Remain anyway.    They didn't think about Little England though.  A always, beware the silent ones Nicola.  They don't speak, they don't respond to polls requests...................... 

 

But they do vote.  And in the Indy case they voted No last time and they will do the same the next time.

 

Unless Space Mackerel manages to persuade them otherwise.   Cue smileys.

[Boris]

Correct. The Brexit vote was based on no substantial proposals or evidence on what would happen in the event of a Leave vote.  People voted "blind" and I think many predicted the result would be Remain anyway.    They didn't think about Little England though.  A always, beware the silent ones Nicola.  They don't speak, they don't respond to polls requests...................... 

 

But they do vote.  And in the Indy case they voted No last time and they will do the same the next time.

 

Unless Space Mackerel manages to persuade them otherwise.   Cue smileys.

And there is the irony behind the "not at this time" comment from May. We have to wait to see what brexit means before the opportunity for an Indy ref, but were allowed to vote for brexit without knowing what it meant. Crazy, huh?

[frankblack]

Producing the White Paper was an extremely difficult thing to do, it is to the SNP's credit that they did it to  give the public details of their proposal for Independence. If only the UK Government had done the same prior to the Brexit vote

 

Yes - but if you produce something then there needs to be substance to it.  3 years later we still don't know what their position is on the EU, EFTA, currency, and even trading with the rest of the UK.

 

Every interview I have seen has seen the SNP MP/MSP ripped to bits when questioned on those issues.  Oh, and what about the economy - is it still to be propped up by the Oil and Gas sector?

[frankblack]

And there is the irony behind the "not at this time" comment from May. We have to wait to see what brexit means before the opportunity for an Indy ref, but were allowed to vote for brexit without knowing what it meant. Crazy, huh?

 

We were allowed to vote on Independence last time without knowing what it meant also.

[Pans Jambo]

And diverting 15% of the NHS Scotland Barnett funding is the way to fix the chronic health issues?

 

Sorry, I forgot about the "Health Tax" levied on supermarkets selling Cigarettes and Alcohol but forget how much of that was actually spent on Health. Maybe you could remind me.

 

Greater strides were made in improving health and wellbeing in the 20 years before the Scottish Parliament was established than since. It is one giant and expensive self-licking ice cream.

Yeah right

300 years of largely ignoring 'that lot up North' but it's all good now that we are taxing fags.

[Adam Murray]

And there is the irony behind the "not at this time" comment from May. We have to wait to see what brexit means before the opportunity for an Indy ref, but were allowed to vote for brexit without knowing what it meant. Crazy, huh?

 

We certainly know what currency we'll be using post Brexit.

[manaliveits105]

Robertson kicked into touch in Parliament today with Theresa Mays comment on the Scottish Parliament not having passed anything in the last year.

Aye too busy with indy2 to look after the Scottish population - waste of time.

[Pans Jambo]

We certainly know what currency we'll be using post Brexit.

Whats the big deal about the Currency?

 

If its broon buttons and I can pay the mortgage, buy fuel, food, clothing, trade for other currency when I go abroad and save for a pension with them then good enough.

 

Try using a Scottish ?20 south of Nottingham today!

[Space Mackerel]

The result is similar to a significant number of other polls, all consistently showing the result between 30 and 40% wanting another referendum in the near future.

 

But if you think the whole country are housewives and junkies crack on.

 

Of course in Space world the real number of Scots wanting another referendum is 100%.

Yeah ok. The only people who band that statistic around are die hard Yoons kidding on themselves and trying to kid on the general population.

 

Sky News had a poll today, 48 against 45 think Scotland will be independent within 10 years.

[jambo lodge]

And there is the irony behind the "not at this time" comment from May. We have to wait to see what brexit means before the opportunity for an Indy ref, but were allowed to vote for brexit without knowing what it meant. Crazy, huh?

 

There are two very simple reasons for not yet.

1. The Independence issue was voted on a couple of years ago and was for a generation/lifetime depending on which SNP leader you want to quote.

2. Second reason is that the UK is currently undergoing a constitutional change which will positively affect all parts of the UK including Scotland.

 

We all know what Brexit brings, a repatriation of laws/powers from the undemocratic EU. Control of our borders and the ability to do trade deals with the rest of the world. There is no irony whatsoever in telling the SNP to park their political wishes for a period of time.  

[manaliveits105]

Oh the irony of Krankie claiming TM has taken a leap in the dark without knowing the detail of brexit hmmmm like independence naw ? Get back to the day job

[Adam Murray]

Whats the big deal about the Currency?

 

If its broon buttons and I can pay the mortgage, buy fuel, food, clothing, trade for other currency when I go abroad and save for a pension with them then good enough.

 

Try using a Scottish ?20 south of Nottingham today!

 

 

It was certainly a big deal in Indyref1 to a lot of people.

 

And if people here are not getting as many 'broon buttons' in their pay packet as someone in other parts of these islands (London Weighting excluded), for doing the same job, then that's going to be a big deal.

 

Likewise, if people are having to pay more 'broon buttons' out of their pay packets in tax, or for everyday goods, than people who may live a couple of miles down the road, then that's going to be a big deal.

 

If it's no big deal, why have a party who's sole reason for existence (over 80 years) is Independence, both politically and economically, not come up with a concrete idea of what currency to use?

 

You remember the hoo ha in this country when people thought they were going to have to use the Euro surely?

[deesidejambo]

It was certainly a big deal in Indyref1 to a lot of people.

 

And if people here are not getting as many 'broon buttons' in their pay packet as someone in other parts of these islands (London Weighting excluded), for doing the same job, then that's going to be a big deal.

 

Likewise, if people are having to pay more 'broon buttons' out of their pay packets in tax, or for everyday goods, than people who may live a couple of miles down the road, then that's going to be a big deal.

 

If it's no big deal, why have a party who's sole reason for existence (over 80 years) is Independence, both politically and economically, not come up with a concrete idea of what currency to use?

 

You remember the hoo ha in this country when people thought they were going to have to use the Euro surely?

The reason they won't say is because whatever choice they make will result in loss of a section of their support.

 

But they will have to take that leap.

[Thunderstruck]

Yeah right

300 years of largely ignoring 'that lot up North' but it's all good now that we are taxing fags.

Where do you get your history from? The Proclaimers?

 

Shall we just take it as a given that you don't know the destination of the diverted NHS funding or income the Health Surcharge.

[Seymour M Hersh]

They arnt.  Many of those who want a second referendum asap are unionists.   I'm keen on a referendum asap.  It will be No and it will kick Nicola into the long grass for, ahem, a generation.

 

30 minutes before the whining starts up again then.

[Thunderstruck]

30 minutes before the whining starts up again then.

That long?

[Seymour M Hersh]

That long?

 

I'm figuring that nippy, being such a short-arse, will take that length of time to find her way out the long grass! 

[Pans Jambo]

Where do you get your history from? The Proclaimers?

 

Shall we just take it as a given that you don't know the destination of the diverted NHS funding or income the Health Surcharge.

Shall we just take it that you in fact cant understand the written word?

My point is that Scotland has been shafted for 300 years in this farce of a union and no amount of additional NHS funding will change that. The UK is a busted flush and thats where its going...doon the pan.

[manaliveits105]

Prime Minister falling back on the 2014 once in a generation decision by the Scottish people

There wont be a 2nd referendum anytime soon and rightly so

The glorious 55

[Roxy Hearts]

What would actually happen is that people would vote tactically to get the SNP out of enough seats that they cannot get Independence through. Edinburgh West, which is my constituency, would almost certainly go back to Lib Dems after the problems with Michelle Thompson.

She's my MP too and I like her. Lib Dems are a joke. Cole-Hamilton our MSP is not exactly squeaky clean and can't stand him.

[Roxy Hearts]

Everything done in the SNP is done in the name of Sturgeon, she does have that much control over her party........with the exception of Salmond. Elections are 3 years away sufficient time for people to get tired of the grandstanding of MP's at Westminster and blaming the inadequacies of Scotland on nasty Tories..

Vote for who after 3 years? Who's got the lovely fluffy attractive policies we can vote for.

[manaliveits105]

Mike Russell torn a new one by the Gordon chappie on bbc there SNP have no answers

[Roxy Hearts]

Do you know that political views are not homogeneous across Scotland? Could it be that in some constituency there are more LD voters than others? I know that doesn't fit into your 'SNP are the voice of Scotland' simple view of politics.

They're not priciply LD voters that's for. Try the Corstorphine Inn for evidence about Edinburgh West lol.

[jambos are go!]

Producing the White Paper was an extremely difficult thing to do, it is to the SNP's credit that they did it to  give the public details of their proposal for Independence. If only the UK Government had done the same prior to the Brexit vote

.

A couple of points.The SNP. The SNP has been campaigning for Independence for around a Century IIRC. Sturgeon has been campaigning for Independence since she was a teenager. She worked on the discredited  White Paper full time for a couple of years at least.

 

It may come as a surprise to you but senior politicians are expected to handle extremely difficult things. Especially when after decades of consideration

[Space Mackerel]

The reason they won't say is because whatever choice they make will result in loss of a section of their support.

 

But they will have to take that leap.

 

Very strong rumours that there will be a Scottish pound pegged to maybe the English pound first as the transitional phase takes over and then it can be pegged to whatever/whoever decides to suit the Scottish economy

Read the news that youre not getting.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14904058.Brand_new____Scot__tops_think_tank_s_nine_currency_options_for_an_independent_Scotland/

[Thunderstruck]

Very strong rumours that there will be a Scottish pound pegged to maybe the English pound first as the transitional phase takes over and then it can be pegged to whatever/whoever decides to suit the Scottish economy

Read the news that youre not getting.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14904058.Brand_new____Scot__tops_think_tank_s_nine_currency_options_for_an_independent_Scotland/

As a plan, that's up there with jumping out of an aeroplane without a 'chute or licking a busbar.

 

Will Waddingtons be printing the money?

[Space Mackerel]

As a plan, that's up there with jumping out of an aeroplane without a 'chute or licking a busbar.

 

Will Waddingtons be printing the money?

 

^^^ Obviously not got a clue type post so just type any old bollocks ^^^

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Wrong again. It's another "your arithmetic is shite post".

  

I'm really unsure how every week between my two vehicles to average a guess of 80 litres which is 057.95 per litre fuel duty ?46.36 per week FD could be bad for a Scottish Gov ? Or any gov come to think of it!

 

Anyone care to explain this curse of oil using these figures?

[Thunderstruck]

^^^ Obviously not got a clue type post so just type any old bollocks ^^^

Why thank you, my little Crab friend. I would start to get concerned if I agreed with anything you had copied from the National or Wings.

[Space Mackerel]

Why thank you, my little Crab friend. I would start to get concerned if I agreed with anything you had copied from the National or Wings.

 

Youve got to read the article first, try it and see whats going to be put forward.

 

Or does it blow another one of your arguments and the last big stick to beat us Seps with

[Adam Murray]

Very strong rumours that there will be a Scottish pound pegged to maybe the English pound first as the transitional phase takes over and then it can be pegged to whatever/whoever decides to suit the Scottish economy

Read the news that youre not getting.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14904058.Brand_new____Scot__tops_think_tank_s_nine_currency_options_for_an_independent_Scotland/

 

 

So that article is dated July 2016, and you being the SNP's number 1 fan, and a daily reader of The National, and you're only just hearing the 'strong rumour' now?

[Space Mackerel]

So that article is dated July 2016, and you being the SNP's number 1 fan, and a daily reader of The National, and you're only just hearing the 'strong rumour' now?

Apolgies. This is the one I meant. I'm doing work on the PC and being a bloke it's difficult to multi task.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15054500.Plan_for_a_new_Scottish_pound__likely__to_be_recommended_by_SNP_Growth_Commission__insider_says/?ref=fbshr

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Adam Murray]

Apolgies. This is the one I meant. I'm doing work on the PC and being a bloke it's difficult to multi task.

 

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15054500.Plan_for_a_new_Scottish_pound__likely__to_be_recommended_by_SNP_Growth_Commission__insider_says/?ref=fbshr

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

No worries.

 

Still a couple of months old that article, which I suppose is nothing in terms of politics (no once in a generation jokes please)

 

Things may well become clearer after the Easter recess, hopefully. 

[Space Mackerel]

No worries.

 

Still a couple of months old that article, which I suppose is nothing in terms of politics (no once in a generation jokes please)

 

Things may well become clearer after the Easter recess, hopefully.

Remember, it was us Scots who invented the humble ? before England. We are only taking back what we rightly owned and created.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

 

They're not principly LD voters that's for sure. Try the Corstorphine Inn for evidence about Edinburgh West lol.

[frankblack]

 

 

They're not principly LD voters that's for sure. Try the Corstorphine Inn for evidence about Edinburgh West lol.

 

What is your point?

 

The Edinburgh West seat has only been held once by the SNP in my time as a voter IIRC. Most of the time its been Lib Dem or even Tory.

[Doogz]

 

 

Anyone care to explain this curse of oil using these figures?

Looking back it appears Thunderstruck was attempting to discuss the value of Scottish oil to the Scottish economy - You would still pay fuel duty regardless of where that fuel was sourced from so I don't see a conflict between the 2 quotes.

[Thunderstruck]

Youve got to read the article first, try it and see whats going to be put forward.

 

Or does it blow another one of your arguments and the last big stick to beat us Seps with

It's regurgitation of old ideas - it didn't chime with voters before the last referendum and it won't work this time.

 

A Central Bank?

Significant currency reserves - how long to build and what with?

The added risk of inflation?

Guarding against external economic "events"?

 

I'm sure the think tank covered all of these topics in some detail.

 

It probably appeals to the economic wizards who think that their NI was paid into a fund and Scotland will get a share of that fund to pay State Pensions.