Indy Ref Part Deux

[Boris]

Here is a piece that Liam Fox (disgraced former defence minister if you recall) wrote back in 2012...

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2ee5b8de-5c8d-11e1-8f1f-00144feabdc0

 

The key bit is here

 

 

To restore Britain?s competitiveness we must begin by deregulating the labour market. Political objections must be overridden. It is too difficult to hire and fire and too expensive to take on new employees. It is intellectually unsustainable to believe that workplace rights should remain untouchable while output and employment are clearly cyclical. The Left must be given an unequivocal moral challenge: it is utterly unacceptable to condemn a generation of our young to unemployment by maintaining all the rights and privileges of those currently in work. That would be the unavoidable outcome of failing to hold our own in a highly competitive global marketplace.

 

Real reason for Brexit?  Get rid of employment rights?  NIce bunch, eh?

 

These are the architects of the UK's departure from the EU.  It isn't about "taking back control" or even about immigration, those are just smokescreens to ensnare the gullible.  People like Farage and Fox don't care about anything other than business and making business rich.  People?  Hell, they're just human resources!  A fuel for business to consume and discard when its usefullness is done.

 

Is this a Britain you want?

[aussieh]

Do you think that Republicans vote No in the same ratio as Royalists?

Just think Dee, an actual Queen Elizabeth of Scotland, Not QE2. How does that sound?

[jambo lodge]

I'll try again, apologies.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/brexit-makes-scottish-independence-much-more-economically-attractive

 

Not a daft article. However if the SNP were wise they would work with Wesminster to do a deal that on independence Scotland could become the UK's gateway to Europe.   

[deesidejambo]

I would like to see a indy Scotland in EFTA better than the EU or staying part of the UK, sorry Stuart.

 

I will be voting YES.

The SNP will need to make this clear when asking for the Holyrood vote.

[jambo lodge]

Here is a piece that Liam Fox (disgraced former defence minister if you recall) wrote back in 2012...

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2ee5b8de-5c8d-11e1-8f1f-00144feabdc0

 

The key bit is here

 

 

 

Real reason for Brexit?  Get rid of employment rights?  NIce bunch, eh?

 

These are the architects of the UK's departure from the EU.  It isn't about "taking back control" or even about immigration, those are just smokescreens to ensnare the gullible.  People like Farage and Fox don't care about anything other than business and making business rich.  People?  Hell, they're just human resources!  A fuel for business to consume and discard when its usefullness is done.

 

Is this a Britain you want?

Oh come on, employment rights are enshrined into law and its in no governments interest to change them.

[maroonlegions]

Theresa May is dragging the UK under. This time Scotland must cut the rope | George Monbiot

Britain is politically dead from the neck down. Leaving the union may be risky, but staying is worse

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

 

 

[aussieh]

There's the rub for the SNP coming up with a sound economic policy and gaining entry to the EU - oh wait a minute is it EFTA they want into now that the entry to the EU is looking problematic.

 

Project Realism will prevail - vote NO!

Maybe they think that we should decide if we want to be a member of the EU or EFTA or whatever, just for wee change. What's wrong with that? First we gain our Independence, then we vote for a new government with a manifesto with or without rUK or EU trade deals. Why is that such a bad thing for no voters, you know democracy?

[Boris]

The SNP will need to make this clear when asking for the Holyrood vote.

 

Why?

 

The Holyrood vote is about asking (!) for a referendum on independence.

 

If there is then a referendum, it would be incumbent on the YES side to state its position with regards EU/EFTA etc.

 

Interestingly, Sturgeon seems to refer to Single Market a lot, compared to simply EU.  May be something, may be nothing.

[Stuart Lyon]

Democracy prevailed in 2014 but still the SNP want another bite at the cherry! No then and No now - Project Realism is alive and kicking!

[Boris]

Oh come on, employment rights are enshrined into law and its in no governments interest to change them.

 

Despite that being what the trade minister thinks about the subject?

 

Labour in a shambles, no real opposition, Tory hegemony for the next 20 years, but they won't muck about with employment law?  Cameron already had a nibble at it with regards tribunals, why wouldn't they go further (pssst!  They were all diktats from the EU so we should take back our laws).

[Boris]

Democracy prevailed in 2014 but still the SNP want another bite at the cherry! No then and No now - Project Realism is alive and kicking!

 

Democracy did indeed prevail, as it is prevailing right now.

[jambo lodge]

Why?

 

The Holyrood vote is about asking (!) for a referendum on independence.

 

If there is then a referendum, it would be incumbent on the YES side to state its position with regards EU/EFTA etc.

 

Interestingly, Sturgeon seems to refer to Single Market a lot, compared to simply EU.  May be something, may be nothing.

 

Not so sure the referendum will be as simple as that. The one in 2014 was simple as was the answer NO. Any new referendum would have to reflect the grievance/material change quoted by the SNP.

 

Should Scotland become an independent country within the European Union?? Much more reflects the SNP's position. 

[AlphonseCapone]

So the Snp are calling for a second referendum on independence because they think we want to stay in EU but now they are saying we won't stay in the EU.So no need for the referendum now, right?

What is this material change then?

Your post is factually incorrect, either intentionally or because you haven't done any of your own research. Either way, lying is shan on either side.

[AlphonseCapone]

Democracy prevailed in 2014 but still the SNP want another bite at the cherry! No then and No now - Project Realism is alive and kicking!

Can you explain how carrying out a manifesto pledge isn't democracy?

[jack D and coke]

Ive used force, however there are two options, no one would be forced to vote one way. Every poll/ referendum forces choices. The choices would be the same, just the consequences would be different

 

In fact I believe David Cameron forced a third option of more devolution powers to be removed last time.

 

It would clearly be a political tactic, however one that I believe should be explored, there is nothing wrong with either being independent or part of the UK in its entirety?

 

I'm on the YES side and they should be looking to win, if this is a viable option then it should be used, I don't really care if pro union folk feel it is unfair as it may persuade some soft voters to vote yes. That is the point. Surely the pro union side can persuade such voters to vote No?

 

Just as you said the yes side should get a convincing argument, It would be up to the pro union side to forge a convincing argument that remain part of the UK without devolution is the best option. Surely that must be easy if you feel being part of the union is correct?

 

Devolution should be removed, imo as it is unfair that we have it as part of the UK and other do not, its also ensures that the independence debate drags on when there are other things to be discussed and solved.

 

If Westminster is the government of the UK and we vote for that to be the case and to remain it , then I believe resources should be used there, not in Edinburgh I don't want my taxes paying for two parliaments any more than the Royal households tbh.

 

Its all about winning, all tools should be used. both sides will do this.

I agree with you on that I've told you before i think but I believe the Scottish parliament is so despised by unionists I believe they'd vote No to see it removed and our gas put at a peep for good. They hate themselves so much they'd rather listen to a Westminster politician telling them how shite they are and how their country is such a huge burden on the English tax payers and they'd be living in squalor without them. They actually lap it up too......It's a very strange mindset.

However I do think it's the way to go we can't keep having these referendums it's not doing the country any good. It's never going to be agreed though and independence is coming it's probably just years and years down the track. Years of squabbling and division until it can't do anything else but break.

[Boris]

Not so sure the referendum will be as simple as that. The one in 2014 was simple as was the answer NO. Any new referendum would have to reflect the grievance/material change quoted by the SNP.

 

Should Scotland become an independent country within the European Union?? Much more reflects the SNP's position. 

 

I'm not sure you could ask such a question, given that it isn't for Scotland to decide if it gets into the EU.

 

Independence first, then sort out what happens with Europe.

 

Obviously a central part to any indy campaign....we would like to be in EU/ we would like to be in Single Market/ we would seek to join EFTA etc etc but impossible to put on a referendum question.

 

If for example your question was the question, and YES won, what would happen if Spain (for example) vetoed Scotland's entry to the EU?

 

Does that make the referendum null and void?

[aussieh]

Democracy prevailed in 2014 but still the SNP want another bite at the cherry! No then and No now - Project Realism is alive and kicking!

You can't guarantee something to win a vote, then totally renege.

[i8hibsh]

Democracy did indeed prevail, as it is prevailing right now.

 

When the majority of Scots do not want a second referendum?

 

Boris may I ask you, how do you feel about the SNP and it's followers on their "All welcome" to this country view? Be honest, please.

[1874robbo]

I'd be interested to know what you think it is too, actually. You are a staunch believer in remaining in the UK, and I respect that. Spacey asks a good question though. Why do you think the UK government wants to hold on to Scotland if we are so weak and poor?

Staunch believer mothy? My first post on this whole thread I've no idea why the government wants to hold on to Scotland.

Maybe they just like wee cuddly Loch Ness monsters?

[deesidejambo]

Why?

 

The Holyrood vote is about asking (!) for a referendum on independence.

 

If there is then a referendum, it would be incumbent on the YES side to state its position with regards EU/EFTA etc.

 

Interestingly, Sturgeon seems to refer to Single Market a lot, compared to simply EU. May be something, may be nothing.

Indeed she is repositioning. But then why not work with May to secure it for all UK?

[Don Dan]

The Government?s White Paper, The United Kingdom?s exit from and new partnership with the European Union, published in January 2017, stated that the aim of the Bill is ?to ensure that all EU laws which are directly applicable in the UK (such as EU regulations) and all laws which have been made in the UK, in order to implement our obligations as a member of the EU, remain part of domestic law on the day we leave the EU".

 

The Great Repeal Bill.

[deesidejambo]

Staunch believer mothy? My first post on this whole thread I've no idea why the government wants to hold on to Scotland.

Maybe they just like wee cuddly Loch Ness monsters?

The benefits of Federalism perhaps?

[Boris]

When the minority of Scots do not want a second referendum?

 

Boris may I ask you, how do you feel about the SNP and it's followers on their "All welcome" to this country? Be honest, please.

 

When the minority of Scots so not want a second referendum?  Not sure I get your point there i8.

 

As has been posted, it was a manifesto committment by the SNP that should there be material change then they would seek another referendum.  Not unlike the Tories and their EU ref despite only polling 35% of the vote.

 

All Welcome to this country - I assume you mean Scotland being happy to accept refugees, immigrants that would help our economy and enrich our society?  Yes, why not?

[Boris]

Indeed she is repositioning. But then why not work with May to secure it for all UK?

 

Ask May!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/14/compromise-still-possible-to-avoid-scotland-independence-vote-says-snp

[deesidejambo]

When the minority of Scots so not want a second referendum? Not sure I get your point there i8.

 

As has been posted, it was a manifesto committment by the SNP that should there be material change then they would seek another referendum. Not unlike the Tories and their EU ref despite only polling 35% of the vote.

 

All Welcome to this country - I assume you mean Scotland being happy to accept refugees, immigrants that would help our economy and enrich our society? Yes, why not?

Be gentle on him. He meant majority

[Seymour M Hersh]

 

Theresa May is dragging the UK under. This time Scotland must cut the rope | George Monbiot

Britain is politically dead from the neck down. Leaving the union may be risky, but staying is worse

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

 

 

 

 

Moonbeams is off his ****ing trolly. A complete loony. What he predicts the polar opposite happens. 

[Boris]

Be gentle on him. He meant majority

 

Ah, but with i8, you can't infer what he means.  Everything has to be literal.  Otherwise i8's reputation may get tarnished by accusations of extremist behaviour!

[i8hibsh]

When the minority of Scots so not want a second referendum?  Not sure I get your point there i8.

 

As has been posted, it was a manifesto committment by the SNP that should there be material change then they would seek another referendum.  Not unlike the Tories and their EU ref despite only polling 35% of the vote.

 

All Welcome to this country - I assume you mean Scotland being happy to accept refugees, immigrants that would help our economy and enrich our society?  Yes, why not?

 

Doh!! changed to 'majority' - my bad.

 

 

 

The key here is in the word "All" Boris.  Think about what "All" means for a second.  To suggest that allowing anyone who wants a better life to our country will result in helping our economy and enrich our society as so ridiculously insulting.  Why are they so perfect that it would without any forethought ?enrich? our society and ?help? our economy? What makes them so special? Think again Boris about the word ?All? please.  Not ?our fair share? which literally no-one disputes, the word is ?All?.

 

[Boris]

Moonbeams is off his ******* trolly. A complete loony. What he predicts the polar opposite happens. 

 

I thought it was an ok piece.

[i8hibsh]

I am having a house party on Saturday - ALL welcome.

 

Result : House overflowing, people partying in the streets, tearing up the garden, furniture broken, valuables stolen, not enough drink to go round, walls vandalised, fighting and police being called.

 

Or

 

I am having a house party on Saturday and it is invite only.

 

Result : great night had by all.

[Homme]

I'll likely see where we are a month from the referendum before deciding my vote.

 

Too far off yet. I was yes before but seriously unhappy with the SNP since so I'm undecided at the moment.

 

I guess looking at the bigger picture of an independent Scotland rather than that detestable Sturgeon running for the first handful of years it will help.

[AlphonseCapone]

I am having a house party on Saturday - ALL welcome.

 

Result : House overflowing, people partying in the streets, tearing up the garden, furniture broken, valuables stolen, not enough drink to go round, walls vandalised, fighting and police being called.

 

Or

 

I am having a house party on Saturday and it is invite only.

 

Result : great night had by all.

BYOB?

[AlphonseCapone]

I'll likely see where we are a month from the referendum before deciding my vote.

 

Too far off yet. I was yes before but seriously unhappy with the SNP since so I'm undecided at the moment.

 

I guess looking at the bigger picture of an independent Scotland rather than that detestable Sturgeon running for the first handful of years it will help.

Not having a go at you mate but it's so short sighted to decide this based on one party or person.

[Boris]

 

Doh!! changed to 'majority' - my bad.

 

 

 

The key here is in the word "All" Boris.  Think about what "All" means for a second.  To suggest that allowing anyone who wants a better life to our country will result in helping our economy and enrich our society as so ridiculously insulting.  Why are they so perfect that it would without any forethought ?enrich? our society and ?help? our economy? What makes them so special? Think again Boris about the word ?All? please.  Not ?our fair share? which literally no-one disputes, the word is ?All?.

 

 

I'm comfortable with it, because "All" are not going to come here.  And "All" doesn't mean carte blanche open door policy either, there would obviously be vetting.

[i8hibsh]

BYOB?

 

Nah all free mate.

[frankblack]

I see that a petition to Westminster to reject a call for a new Indy Referendum has over 112k signatures after a couple of days.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642+

[i8hibsh]

I'm comfortable with it, because "All" are not going to come here.  And "All" doesn't mean carte blanche open door policy either, there would obviously be vetting.

 

 

What vetting will be carried our by our extensive and vast homeland security?  Do you know the wods to Flower of Scotland?

[Boris]

I see that a petition to Westminster to reject a call for a new Indy Referendum has over 112k signatures after a couple of days.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642+

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-government-rejects-eu-referendum-petition-latest-a7128306.html

[AlphonseCapone]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-government-rejects-eu-referendum-petition-latest-a7128306.html

Smackdown.

[Boris]

What vetting will be carried our by our extensive and vast homeland security?  Do you know the wods to Flower of Scotland?

 

I have absolutely no idea, but I'm sure there would be verification checks of who people are, outstanding warrants via Interpol or such like etc etc etc etc

[Homme]

Not having a go at you mate but it's so short sighted to decide this based on one party or person.

I didn't word my post very well. I meant that if I vote it won't be because of any individual. I dislike Sturgeon but an independent Scotland is the bigger picture.

[AlphonseCapone]

I didn't word my post very well. I meant that if I vote it won't be because of any individual. I dislike Sturgeon but an independent Scotland is the bigger picture.

Ah fair enough mate

[The Don]

PMQ's and May just slapped down an angry SNP MP. Told her that the First Minister was indeed returned in the last election albeit with a MINORITY government, and went on to say quite rightly the people of Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK and it was the people of the UK that decided to leave the EU, she said Salmond (who is sitting there) said that the last referendum was a "once in a generation" vote.

 

Does this give us a signal that May might reject any proposal by the SNP for an Indyref 2?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boris]

Smackdown.

 

The similarities between the Brexit scenario and this are so obvious.

 

May's comments regarding being stronger in a Union, while at the same time taking us out of one are stupifying (or patronising or arrogant or dismissive or all of the above).

 

It's all quite funny, in a way.

[frankblack]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-government-rejects-eu-referendum-petition-latest-a7128306.html

 

Good link.  However, this petition might be more to their liking....

[Boris]

PMQ's and May just slapped down an angry SNP MP. Told her that the First Minister was indeed returned in the last election albeit with a MINORITY government, and went on to say quite rightly the people of Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK and it was the people of the UK that decided to leave the EU, she said Salmond (who is sitting there) said that the last referendum was a "once in a generation" vote.

 

Does this give us a signal that May might reject any proposal by the SNP for an Indyref 2?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Won't go down well if she does, in fact will make things even more acrimonious, imo, but on the plus side will be a major shot in the arm for independence.

[frankblack]

The similarities between the Brexit scenario and this are so obvious.

 

May's comments regarding being stronger in a Union, while at the same time taking us out of one are stupifying (or patronising or arrogant or dismissive or all of the above).

 

It's all quite funny, in a way.

 

Its not as bad as the SNP who want to be independent yet give up all their powers to the EU.

[Bazzas right boot]

I agree with you on that I've told you before i think but I believe the Scottish parliament is so despised by unionists I believe they'd vote No to see it removed and our gas put at a peep for good. They hate themselves so much they'd rather listen to a Westminster politician telling them how shite they are and how their country is such a huge burden on the English tax payers and they'd be living in squalor without them. They actually lap it up too......It's a very strange mindset.

However I do think it's the way to go we can't keep having these referendums it's not doing the country any good. It's never going to be agreed though and independence is coming it's probably just years and years down the track. Years of squabbling and division until it can't do anything else but break.

 

 

Maybe, it is a risk.

 

However I honestly believe that there is only around 20% that want ruled by Westminster, allot of no voters quite rightly want clarity on things like currency, eu, borders, defence etc, the thing is no matter what, nothing can be guaranteed, whatever plans are in place they will be taken apart, because they are plans and will remain plans. Plans can be picked apart, they require a little faith, even the best plans require faith.

 

The driver of change is always in a difficult position, particularly if things are not that bad., which they are not. we are not getting murdered in the street.

 

By removing devotion, you are saying that things will become worse, this  encourages folk to vote for change, as in my case there will be change either way.

 

It is always far too easy to keep things the same, it is human nature. As long as devolution is there it will be the default setting for many, simple because it is where we are.

 

Without devolution as an option I could easily see a 60% + yes vote.

My unionists friends, one a UKIP man, laughed when I talked about it, he said he wouldn't vote ( he cannot vote for Scotland, but wouldn't vote against it!), but said it would win, it would be sneaky. he used to be an orange man so he is a hard no/ leave man.

 

Soft no' from labour, lib dems, even snp and greens would have a choice. It would also put labour and lib dems in a very awkward position, I wouldn't bet against them becoming pro indy.

 

How can you argue against it as well? be difficult to argue that devolution is great but independence isn't, particularly if the SNP flip the argument and say it is unfair that Scotland gets granted special powers and if Scotland votes to remain in the UK, the SNP will fully embrace it and we should do so fully and follow the rest of the country, Puts the UK party's at even further odds with the Scottish branches.

 

It would be interesting to put to the polls even amongst SNP members, however as it would be hypothetical there would be an allowance made for inaccuracy.

 

Its risky, but mark my words if it is another no vote, the validity of the Scottish parliament will be questioned, even I will question it.

 

Its politics, it make our stance look braver and decisive.

It puts the other party's on the back  back foot and really only the Tories could fight it.

 

The No vote will have all their guns lined up, promises, picking apart every plan even personal slander and agenda. If we move the goal posts and play politics we stand a chance.

 

Reasoned debate won't win.

 

It didn't win last time

it didn't stop brexit

Trump won

 

Bluster , aggressiveness but also leadership, focus and fear wins.

 

IMO to win we need to go this way.

[Boris]

Good link.  However, this petition might be more to their liking....

 

A bit like this union and not that one etc etc

 

Arguably there is precedent with the EU one so would seem rather hypocritical not to treat both the same?

 

Still, Tory majority so wouldn't surprise me if they picked and chose.

[frankblack]

Won't go down well if she does, in fact will make things even more acrimonious, imo, but on the plus side will be a major shot in the arm for independence.

 

There is no chance she will allow a referendum to be a distraction while the Brexit negotiations are in progress.  I think the government will want to fight an Independence Referendum with Brexit behind them, which will leave the SNP in a weak position with no economic policy, no separate currency, and no place in the EU.