Indy Ref Part Deux

[The Don]

.

[Space Mackerel]

Wings over Scotland Haha

 

The website/blog ran by a complete xenophobic arse hole that mocked the Hillsborough tragedy. Hmmm given the shite some posters have said you believe in I suppose it's no surprise you'd be into that horrible vile page.

 

 

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Oh well, you did ask for it.

 

GERS by Economists

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/gers-by-economists/

[The Don]

Oh well, you did ask for it.

 

GERS by Economists

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/gers-by-economists/

NS takes GERS seriously enough.

 

Scotland is facing a record ?14.8 billion black hole in the nation?s public finances as the impact of the oil industry crash continues to take its toll.

Nicola Sturgeon said the country?s is experiencing an ?economic shock? as the full impact of global oil price crash on Scotland?s balance book was set out in stark new figures. But she insisted her dream of independence has not been undermined by the figures and said she would not have to impose tax rises or spending cuts to tackle the growing black hole unveiled in the latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures published yesterday.

 

Wings over Scotland deary me I thought people had given up on that disgrace of a site. Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well?

 

 

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[ToadKiller Dog]

Interesting change of mind from Oxford economist .

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10552/top-oxford-economist-changes-mind-back-financial-benefits-scottish-independence

 

 

Way I look at it Holyrood through labour leadership to Snp has changed Scotland ,we are more in line with your average western European politics ,a mixed economy part private part public , it's England under the austerity and hard right Tory party that is out of tune .

We rightly have to decide to follow down the privatisation less welfare no nhs ,less regulation and workers rights route of Tory Westminster or the route that Holyrood has chosen .

If we stay in the UK with a hard Brexit ,Holyrood will eventually have to follow the road the Tory party has taken in Westminster ,I don't believe that is where Scotland is at .

[Space Mackerel]

NS takes GERS seriously enough.

 

Scotland is facing a record ?14.8 billion black hole in the nation?s public finances as the impact of the oil industry crash continues to take its toll.

Nicola Sturgeon said the country?s is experiencing an ?economic shock? as the full impact of global oil price crash on Scotland?s balance book was set out in stark new figures. But she insisted her dream of independence has not been undermined by the figures and said she would not have to impose tax rises or spending cuts to tackle the growing black hole unveiled in the latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures published yesterday.

 

Wings over Scotland death me I thought people had given up on that disgrace of a site. Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well?

 

 

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You didn't read the article :-/

[frankblack]

You're off your rocker.

 

 

So you don't think the SNP engineered the second Indy Referendum by antagonising the English at Westminster from the moment they lost the last one?

• Blaming Westminster for everything wrong with Scotland's economy.
• Voting on English Only matters.

 

How soon will they call Indy Ref 3 after they lose the next one?

[theshed]

God knows how certain posters have the time post so much knowledge on here.

 

They must get no work done at their job

[AlphonseCapone]

 

So you don't think the SNP engineered the second Indy Referendum by antagonising the English at Westminster from the moment they lost the last one?

• Blaming Westminster for everything wrong with Scotland's economy.
• Voting on English Only matters.

How soon will they call Indy Ref 3 after they lose the next one?

You said the SNP engineered brexit. You're a nutcase if you believe that. Away to the conspiracy thread.

[Space Mackerel]

Interesting change of mind from Oxford economist .

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10552/top-oxford-economist-changes-mind-back-financial-benefits-scottish-independence

 

 

Way I look at it Holyrood through labour leadership to Snp has changed Scotland ,we are more in line with your average western European politics ,a mixed economy part private part public , it's England under the austerity and hard right Tory party that is out of tune .

We rightly have to decide to follow down the privatisation less welfare no nhs ,less regulation and workers rights route of Tory Westminster or the route that Holyrood has chosen .

If we stay in the UK with a hard Brexit ,Holyrood will eventually have to follow the road the Tory party has taken in Westminster ,I don't believe that is where Scotland is at .

 

Good read but Rudi Mental won't take a single thing on board as it doesn't fit his Sun/Daily Mail/Express narrative he's been indoctrinated into.

 

Pesky independent thinking economic experts eh.

[Rudolf's Mate]

NS takes GERS seriously enough.

 

Scotland is facing a record ?14.8 billion black hole in the nation?s public finances as the impact of the oil industry crash continues to take its toll.

Nicola Sturgeon said the country?s is experiencing an ?economic shock? as the full impact of global oil price crash on Scotland?s balance book was set out in stark new figures. But she insisted her dream of independence has not been undermined by the figures and said she would not have to impose tax rises or spending cuts to tackle the growing black hole unveiled in the latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures published yesterday.

 

Wings over Scotland deary me I thought people had given up on that disgrace of a site. Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well?

 

 

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Agreed the site is a joke however if you ignore the writers rambling and just read the highlighted comments made by Companies/individuals it highlights what many people have been trying to say. It's also good that a huge multinational accountancy company such as Deloitte have poured scorn over certain claims.

 

 

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[The Comedian]

Good read but Rudi Mental won't take a single thing on board as it doesn't fit his Sun/Daily Mail/Express narrative he's been indoctrinated into.

 

Pesky independent thinking economic experts eh.

 

That seems to hinge on being part of the single market. I thought the SNP were looking at not joing the EU now? I'd need it explained to me what we are joining, if we are looking at the Euro and if we can actually join. As things stand it's all up in the air for me.

 

If we want to talk about markets, we do more trade with the rest of the UK right now. A quick Google says we did ?49.8 billion there and ?12.3 billion with the EU. This simple argument is already blowing a hole in this strategy IMO. How much will it cost us to trade with the UK?

 

The clamour to wrestle back control of our affairs then hand them over again puzzles me. Why does independence go into reverse just over the English Channel?

[luckyBatistuta]

Is the numpty being interviewed on the news right now for real. She voted No the last time, but she's voting Yes this time, because she thought the Yes voters seemed to have more fun...wtf!!!

[By The Light..]

When did we join the EU?

Good point but I'm not convinced being in the EU has led to Scotland current never having had it so good (imho).

 

I think it is Moores law, education, health, free marlet reform, dare I say Thatcherism?

 

Ducks for cover.

[Space Mackerel]

Is the numpty being interviewed on the news right now for real. She voted No the last time, but she's voting Yes this time, because she thought the Yes voters seemed to have more fun...wtf!!!

I know a girl who voted No because she thought she wouldn't be able to see Eastenders again. I kid you not.

[Sarah O]

Been away a few days to be greeted by this bombshell of ref 2.

 

Scotland is about to get ugly. Really ugly.

[Placid Casual]

I know a girl who voted No because she thought she wouldn't be able to see Eastenders again. I kid you not.

 

 

People should have to take an IQ test before voting.

 

I'm only half-joking too...

[Nookie Bear]

I know a girl who voted No because she thought she wouldn't be able to see Eastenders again. I kid you not.

Is that the daughter of your oil tycoon mate?

 

Dumb and loaded...excellent.

[frankblack]

You said the SNP engineered brexit. You're a nutcase if you believe that. Away to the conspiracy thread.

I said the SNP are responsible for the rise in English Nationalism and Brexit is a by-product.

 

I doubt we would have got as far as a Brexit Referendum without the bitterness stirred up by Indy Ref 1 and the SNP's hypocritical voting at Westminster.

 

The SNP at Westminster are a national joke.

[Cruyff Turn]

That seems to hinge on being part of the single market. I thought the SNP were looking at not joing the EU now? I'd need it explained to me what we are joining, if we are looking at the Euro and if we can actually join. As things stand it's all up in the air for me.

 

If we want to talk about markets, we do more trade with the rest of the UK right now. A quick Google says we did ?49.8 billion there and ?12.3 billion with the EU. This simple argument is already blowing a hole in this strategy IMO. How much will it cost us to trade with the UK?

 

The clamour to wrestle back control of our affairs then hand them over again puzzles me. Why does independence go into reverse just over the English Channel?

If we get Independence then we can decide whether or not we wish to join the EU or not.

 

Either way being part of a Union where we have no control over economic policy is seriously not the answer.

[Space Mackerel]

That seems to hinge on being part of the single market. I thought the SNP were looking at not joing the EU now? I'd need it explained to me what we are joining, if we are looking at the Euro and if we can actually join. As things stand it's all up in the air for me.

 

If we want to talk about markets, we do more trade with the rest of the UK right now. A quick Google says we did ?49.8 billion there and ?12.3 billion with the EU. This simple argument is already blowing a hole in this strategy IMO. How much will it cost us to trade with the UK?

 

The clamour to wrestle back control of our affairs then hand them over again puzzles me. Why does independence go into reverse just over the English Channel?

See this trade with England, you actually think it will stop dead in its tracks post referendum Yes win? You think the things I need for my business to operate are suddenly going to unavailable for me?

Saying that, a lot of the engineering bits n bobs I need are actually made in the continent and these companies are just stockists or official agents for them. So in fact, it may be cheaper for me to go direct to them, inside the EU or EFTA.

 

I'm going to say it for the last time, as things stand the now, the UK government controls 85, yes 85% of our legislation, the EU controls roughly 8. ANY country can veto any proposal done through the EU, no country can do that within the U.K. unless it's England.

[Space Mackerel]

Is that the daughter of your oil tycoon mate?

 

Dumb and loaded...excellent.

That must have been funnier in your head.

 

1/10

[Placid Casual]

I said the SNP are responsible for the rise in English Nationalism and Brexit is a by-product.

 

I doubt we would have got as far as a Brexit Referendum without the bitterness stirred up by Indy Ref 1 and the SNP's hypocritical voting at Westminster.

 

The SNP at Westminster are a national joke.

 

All of the above... absolute horse****. You are completely deluded.

 

For starters, Brexit was the result of internal politics within the Conservative Party. The result being the mess that the country is in now.

[Nookie Bear]

That must have been funnier in your head.

 

1/10

Thank you.

 

Your story was bullshit anyway.

 

"I had a mate..". Spare us, please.

[The Don]

Agreed the site is a joke however if you ignore the writers rambling and just read the highlighted comments made by Companies/individuals it highlights what many people have been trying to say. It's also good that a huge multinational accountancy company such as Deloitte have poured scorn over certain claims.

 

 

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The man is a proven liar and posts any bollox to try twist the already warped Mind of extremists.

 

How anyone can take seriously a man that made disgusting comments mocking the victims of Hillsborough is beyond me.

 

There are far more reputable trustworthy bloggers and sites on both sides of the argument that people can read. Only bigots believe anything that man and his site spews out.

 

Like I said the figures are so false the Scottish government didn't pour scorn on them or maybe the Scottish government are wrong if so what else are they wrong about ?

 

 

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[luckyBatistuta]

I know a girl who voted No because she thought she wouldn't be able to see Eastenders again. I kid you not.

That's absolutely insane bud, she'll also believe that there is no oil left too mate.

[Nookie Bear]

All of the above... absolute horse****. You are completely deluded.

 

For starters, Brexit was the result of internal politics within the Conservative Party. The result being the mess that the country is in now.

There has always been an antipathy towards Europe and, on top of the conservatives atempt to stop ukip stealing their votes, the Brexit Referendum was supposed to put an end to that discussion for good.

 

It just went the wrong way!

[deesidejambo]

Thank you.

 

Your story was bullshit anyway.

 

"I had a mate..". Spare us, please.

I wonder if he has friends or Aunties who voted No last time but Yes now. That's the Cybernat machine in action.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

The benefits of Federalism perhaps?

Kez thinks federalism is the way ahead unfortunately one of the British Labour Party thought it was a non starter because England didn't want it....

 

The end.

[The Comedian]

If we get Independence then we can decide whether or not we wish to join the EU or not.

 

Either way being part of a Union where we have no control over economic policy is seriously not the answer.

 

If we join EFTA we won't get to shape policy either. That leaves joining the EU fully and let's not kid around, the SNP will ram that home. They don't know whether they need a shite or a haircut at this point.

 

See this trade with England, you actually think it will stop dead in its tracks post referendum Yes win? You think the things I need for my business to operate are suddenly going to unavailable for me?

Saying that, a lot of the engineering bits n bobs I need are actually made in the continent and these companies are just stockists or official agents for them. So in fact, it may be cheaper for me to go direct to them, inside the EU or EFTA.

 

I'm going to say it for the last time, as things stand the now, the UK government controls 85, yes 85% of our legislation, the EU controls roughly 8. ANY country can veto any proposal done through the EU, no country can do that within the U.K. unless it's England.

 

You have a habit of replying with questions on things I didn't say. Neither of the two questions you begin with I commented on. I did however question how much it would cost us to trade with rUK who outwith the EU will impose tariffs. 

[maroonlegions]

If the UK has one of the worst performing currencies in the world  and coupled with a trade deficit of ?133bn , and also  a national debt approaching ?17tn could it then be a justifiable question to pose to Teresa May and her ilk this.

 

Does she and her government really believe that the UK can afford to be an "INDEPENDENT" country ???  

 

 

This was posed to her at prime minster"s questions by an SNP MSP.

[Nookie Bear]

I wonder if he has friends or Aunties who voted No last time but Yes now. That's the Cybernat machine in action.

Actually, would the Scottish Broadcasting Corporation not have to buy Eastenders from the BBC? Can't see that being allowed.

 

It will be wall to wall River City.

 

(Probably for another thread, not a particularly useful contribution!)

[aussieh]

It was NOT the UK governments decision to leave the EU it was the people of the UK, you know the country Scotland voted to remain part of ? That voted to leave the EU.

 

 

 

 

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Who guaranteed EU membership for a no vote. So know it's time to go back and ask again.

[Placid Casual]

You know that would not be a bad idea.

 

There are many intelligent people out there on both sides of the debate who can argue their point forcibly and logically.

 

There are also many people who will vote against anything English for the hell of it without even taking any potential consequences into account.

 

Much the same as many down south did in the Brexit vote when it was feck anything European.

 

I am including politicians in this synopsis.....

 

Good point. I'd wager a fair few politicians couldn't answer questions on many aspects of everyday life.

[aussieh]

Actually, would the Scottish Broadcasting Corporation not have to buy Eastenders from the BBC? Can't see that being allowed.

 

It will be wall to wall River City.

 

(Probably for another thread, not a particularly useful contribution!)

Oh no we Cannae get BBC or sky etc...when we're independent, we better vote no.

[The Don]

Who guaranteed EU membership for a no vote. So know it's time to go back and ask again.

And they were correct at the time. As has been proven independence means Scotland will automatically be out of the EU and has to reapply.

 

Who promised billions of ?'s of oil for a yes vote ?

 

Who said that the 2014 result was a "Once in a generation" vote?

 

 

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[Adam Murray]

If the UK has one of the worst performing currencies in the world  and coupled with a trade deficit of ?133bn , and also  a national debt approaching ?17tn could it then be a justifiable question to pose to Teresa May and her ilk this.

 

Does she and her government really believe that the UK can afford to be an "INDEPENDENT" country ???  

 

 

This was posed to her at prime minster"s questions by an SNP MSP.

 

 

She has no option, by all accounts she wanted to remain in the EU, she is however now in a job where she is being asked to perform the will of the majority of UK.

[Cruyff Turn]

If we join EFTA we won't get to shape policy either. That leaves joining the EU fully and let's not kid around, the SNP will ram that home. They don't know whether they need a shite or a haircut at this point.

 

 

You are getting too hung up on SNP policy.

 

You know as well as I do that the Scottish Electorate doesn't necessarily vote for what a certain party supports.

 

Some of the Scottish electorate could be using the SNP as a vessel to get Scottish Independence but don't agree with their policies. Some might feel strongly about the EU and feel that the SNP represent their interests best. Some might feel that the SNP represents Scottish interests best at WM and are pro devolution and not pro Independence or EU.

 

The bottom line is though they were elected in both Parliaments. I never voted SNP but I support them because they are the best hope for Independence.

 

If Independence was to happen there would be no need for the SNP. We would have elections post Independence and people can vote for what they truly believe They will know their vote counts and know we'd have the Economic powers and a Government with full authority to represent the Majority in a modern democracy.

[AlphonseCapone]

I said the SNP are responsible for the rise in English Nationalism and Brexit is a by-product.

 

I doubt we would have got as far as a Brexit Referendum without the bitterness stirred up by Indy Ref 1 and the SNP's hypocritical voting at Westminster.

 

The SNP at Westminster are a national joke.

Your exact words were that the SNP engineered brexit but don't trust me, here's your post below;

 

The SNP engineered Brexit by stirring up English Nationalism with their Westminster antics and passive aggressive stance to all things non-Scottish down there.

 

The SNP have offered "compromises" to the Tories that are completely unworkable and are basically an ultimatum to scrap Brexit or they call the Indy 2 referendum.

 

The Tories will give them the referendum but not on the SNP terms, and well after Brexit is finished and we have left both the EU and Single Market.

 

[Nookie Bear]

Oh no we Cannae get BBC or sky etc...when we're independent, we better vote no.

Like I said, wasn't a serious point.

 

But, in fairness, Space Mackerel "knows somebody" who is worried by this so it probably a deal breaker for a number of voters.

[Rudolf's Mate]

The man is a proven liar and posts any bollox to try twist the already warped Mind of extremists.

 

How anyone can take seriously a man that made disgusting comments mocking the victims of Hillsborough is beyond me.

 

There are far more reputable trustworthy bloggers and sites on both sides of the argument that people can read. Only bigots believe anything that man and his site spews out.

 

Like I said the figures are so false the Scottish government didn't pour scorn on them or maybe the Scottish government are wrong if so what else are they wrong about ?

 

 

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The only time I've looked at the site was when I've been sent links by someone which has been about 5 times. Regardless I'm highlighting the quotes by Deloitte (in particular) which surely can't be BS?

 

 

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[The Comedian]

You are getting too hung up on SNP policy.

 

You know as well as I do that the Scottish Electorate doesn't necessarily vote for what a certain party supports.

 

Some of the Scottish electorate could be using the SNP as a vessel to get Scottish Independence but don't agree with their policies. Some might feel strongly about the EU and feel that the SNP represent their interests best. Some might feel that the SNP represents Scottish interests best at WM and are pro devolution and not pro Independence or EU.

 

The bottom line is though they were elected in both Parliaments. I never voted SNP but I support them because they are the best hope for Independence.

 

If Independence was to happen there would be no need for the SNP. We would have elections post Independence and people can vote for what they truly believe They will know their vote counts and know we'd have the Economic powers and a Government with full authority to represent the Majority in a modern democracy.

 

Firstly I don't buy for a minute that the SNP will pack up the wagons after winning Independence. They'll want to run the place and whoever takes over will be them in all but name. I've rapidly lost interest in a Scotland shaped by them, and shaped it will be. 

 

As for getting hung up on policy, whose else can you? They are the ones spearheading this thing. It's looking to me like they will say anything to get this over the line.It's not exactly comforting that they won't exist to pick up the flak should it all go tits up.

[The Don]

The only time I've looked at the site was when I've been sent links by someone which has been about 5 times. Regardless I'm highlighting the quotes by Deloitte (in particular) which surely can't be BS?

 

 

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If they are in that site there is every chance they are BS m8. It certainly would not be the first time he has printed untruths and twisted quotes or interviews, and it definitely won't be the last time. He is a total raving loony tune xenophobe only interested in stirring as much trouble as possible and fuelling the extremists with more hatred. You can always tell the types that follow him, they usually have made up friends that are CEO's of oil companies, conspiracy theorists and fantasists.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Thank you.

 

Your story was bullshit anyway.

 

"I had a mate..". Spare us, please.

You're awfy angry dude. Chill oot. [emoji106]

[Cruyff Turn]

Firstly I don't buy for a minute that the SNP will pack up the wagons after winning Independence. They'll want to run the place and whoever takes over will be them in all but name. I've rapidly lost interest in a Scotland shaped by them, and shaped it will be.

 

As for getting hung up on policy, whose else can you? They are the ones spearheading this thing. It's looking to me like they will say anything to get this over the line.It's not exactly comforting that they won't exist to pick up the flak should it all go tits up.

And the alternative?

 

A post Brexit UK with Scotland still having no economic powers, being handed our pocket money by a Government no one here voted for. Where, on this particular issue and on Nuclear Weapons, that Scottish votes have not been even considered as an after thought. Where the will of one country within a Union is more important than another.

 

The constitutional question will not go away, the UK does not work for anyone, it is an utter omnishambles.

 

Something has to give, we cannot go through this time and time again, because we will.

[Boris]

Like I said the figures are so false the Scottish government didn't pour scorn on them or maybe the Scottish government are wrong if so what else are they wrong about ?

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I totally agree with you about Wings.

 

Yet the references in this article are independent, if you pardon the pun. They would be no more or less valid had they been linked to in their original form.

 

Key point I took was the advice that, for both sides, proper figures would be better for everyone to get a proper handle on the reality, or at least to base projections on.

 

You can only pee with the Willie you've got....GERS seems rather inadequate....for both sides!

[Boris]

Firstly I don't buy for a minute that the SNP will pack up the wagons after winning Independence. They'll want to run the place and whoever takes over will be them in all but name. I've rapidly lost interest in a Scotland shaped by them, and shaped it will be. 

 

As for getting hung up on policy, whose else can you? They are the ones spearheading this thing. It's looking to me like they will say anything to get this over the line.It's not exactly comforting that they won't exist to pick up the flak should it all go tits up.

Of course they won't but then that's for the new country to decide.

 

And this is a key point the SNP have to be humble about regards any yes campaign and future independent Scotland.

 

We will need a constitution, perhaps a second chamber, basically adjust the political system for a devolved parliament to a full one.

[The Comedian]

And the alternative?

 

A post Brexit UK with Scotland still having no economic powers, being handed our pocket money by a Government no one here voted for. Where, on this particular issue and on Nuclear Weapons, that Scottish votes have not been even considered as an after thought. Where the will of one country within a Union is more important than another.

 

The constitutional question will not go away, the UK does not work for anyone, it is an utter omnishambles.

 

Something has to give, we cannot go through this time and time again, because we will.

Stay in the UK and get on with it?

 

I voted Yes in 2014 and voted Leave last year but feel alienated now.

 

Personally the UK is working for me, I'm currently working in Devonport and waiting for a start on the new nuclear submarines the Dreadnought class. Call it selfish if you will but I'm happy with this just now.

[aussieh]

See this trade with England, you actually think it will stop dead in its tracks post referendum Yes win? You think the things I need for my business to operate are suddenly going to unavailable for me?

Saying that, a lot of the engineering bits n bobs I need are actually made in the continent and these companies are just stockists or official agents for them. So in fact, it may be cheaper for me to go direct to them, inside the EU or EFTA.

 

I'm going to say it for the last time, as things stand the now, the UK government controls 85, yes 85% of our legislation, the EU controls roughly 8. ANY country can veto any proposal done through the EU, no country can do that within the U.K. unless it's England.

85%/of the Scottish electorate didn't vote for the WM Tory government in 2015.

[aussieh]

Like I said, wasn't a serious point.

 

But, in fairness, Space Mackerel "knows somebody" who is worried by this so it probably a deal breaker for a number of voters.

[Space Mackerel]

If we join EFTA we won't get to shape policy either. That leaves joining the EU fully and let's not kid around, the SNP will ram that home. They don't know whether they need a shite or a haircut at this point.

 

 

You have a habit of replying with questions on things I didn't say. Neither of the two questions you begin with I commented on. I did however question how much it would cost us to trade with rUK who outwith the EU will impose tariffs.

How the hell am I meant to know that at this stage? Does anyone?

I gave you an example of how my business would adjust if back in the EU and England was outside it. What more do you want at this stage?