Indy Ref Part Deux

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Has it been clarified yet as to whether this thread will be allowed to remain open on the day of the vote itself yet?

That needs to be reflected on.

[JamboX2]

Quicker but not guaranteed.

 

If the SNP want to talk about the benefits of a union, perhaps they should acknowledge Scotland has far better representation and does far more tariff free trade with the one it's currently been in since 1707.

Totally agree.

[Cruyff Turn]

Um, no one claimed England did. The parliamentary vote overall was in favour of invoking Article 50.

58 out of 59 Scottish MP's voted against it.

 

53 voted against the EU bill in the first place.

 

So the votes of the Scottish electorate clearly don't count within a UK parliament of which Scotland is supposedly, under the terms of the UK constitution, an equal partner.

 

1 English MP's vote is then worth more than the entire Scottish electorates.

 

Democracy in action.

[The Comedian]

No. That is incorrect. We voted to remain part of the United Kingdom as an equal partner with England.

 

The Bill to have an EU referendum was voted against by Scottish MP's within the UK Parliament. Those MP's were elected by the Scottish electorate who voted to remain part of the UK constitution.

 

So what is the point in the United Kingdom if Scottish votes mean nothing?

 

We clearly don't live in a Democracy. The UK clearly does not work and Devolution has not solved this problem.

Nothing in my post is incorrect.

 

Scotland didn't get what it wanted. That's life but not undemocratic. We voted to remain in one Parliament, it voted for the EU bill then the UK voted leave.

 

If we did vote to be Independent, we'd be out the EU anyway.

[Dawnrazor]

So, 22 pages in, has anyone read anything to change thier minds?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Scotland is not a member of the EU.

 

Exactly, I don't understand why some folks think that an Independent Scotland would somehow inherit the UK's EU membership, especially since the EU have already clarified that an Independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU.

 

Scotland would most likely be allowed to join and may well be fast tracked like Austria were, but even that took over 1 year, that is of course if Scotland weren't vetoed by Spain, Belgium etc.

[Victorian]

In what way? It is pretty democratic compared to other systems

 

It is designed to make a party majority very difficult to achieve. That's as undemocratic as a FPTP parliament. Perhaps more so. It is too heavily weighted to PR.

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[aussieh]

Aye, but Scotland in Europe in any way shape or form and you can kiss goodbye to Fisheries being controlled by Scotland. Its this kind of situation that makes the SNP position utter nonsense.

WM won't be giving it back, but at least it will be ours to trade with post Indy. 40 year ago it was expendable, now it'll be an asset for Scotland.

[kila]

Exactly, I don't understand why some folks think that an Independent Scotland would somehow inherit the UK's EU membership, especially since the EU have already clarified that an Independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU.

 

Scotland would most likely be allowed to join and may well be fast tracked like Austria were, but even that took over 1 year, that is of course if Scotland weren't vetoed by Spain, Belgium etc.

 

I guess because Scotland already has EU nationals living here under EU rules and that our laws and customs are already intertwined with the EUs.

[Space Mackerel]

Nothing in my post is incorrect.

 

Scotland didn't get what it wanted. That's life but not undemocratic. We voted to remain in one Parliament, it voted for the EU bill then the UK voted leave.

 

If we did vote to be Independent, we'd be out the EU anyway.

Chair of the European Parliament on Foreign Affairs says we'll be back in nae bother though.

 

https://twitter.com/scotlandstewart/status/841698670772903937

[jack D and coke]

Can countries veto us just joining the single market? As opposed to full EU membership?

[Don Dan]

WM won't be giving it back, but at least it will be ours to trade with post Indy. 40 year ago it was expendable, now it'll be an asset for Scotland.

You don't half make some wild assumptions in that one sentence.

[The Comedian]

Chair of the European Parliament on Foreign Affairs says we'll be back in nae bother though.

 

https://twitter.com/scotlandstewart/status/841698670772903937

He doesn't say that at all.

[Don Dan]

Chair of the European Parliament on Foreign Affairs says we'll be back in nae bother though.https://twitter.com/scotlandstewart/status/841698670772903937

Then again, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

[Scallywag]

So, 22 pages in, has anyone read anything to change thier minds?

 

No......and in 2 years time it will probably be much the same.

[Cruyff Turn]

Nothing in my post is incorrect.

 

Scotland didn't get what it wanted. That's life but not undemocratic. We voted to remain in one Parliament, it voted for the EU bill then the UK voted leave.

 

If we did vote to be Independent, we'd be out the EU anyway.

No. We voted to remain part of the UK Parliament which Scotland, under the UK constitution, is an equal partner.

 

The Scottish electorate elects MP's to the UK Parliament.

 

Those MP's represent Scotland, the majority voted against the EU referendum in the first place and evoking article 50.

 

Therefore, Scottish votes, as an equal partner of UK do not count within a UK Parliament.

 

Which isn't hard lines or tough luck. It is an affront to democracy.

[The Comedian]

No......and in 2 years time it will probably be much the same.

My opinion has headed from Yes to No, not necessarily because of this thread right enough.

[aussieh]

No that's not her basis - it's the fact that May has given any guarantees as regards Scotland in the negotiations and that Sturgeon thinks it will be a hard Brexit.

 

That's the materiality put forward.

Vote No to guarantee EU membership, remember that?

 

She even asked for a wee bit of cooperation as Scotland voted remain.The silence is deafening on that too. Even Stevie Wonder can see this for what it is.

[The Real Maroonblood]

So, 22 pages in, has anyone read anything to change thier minds?

Yes and no.

[jambo lodge]

WM won't be giving it back, but at least it will be ours to trade with post Indy. 40 year ago it was expendable, now it'll be an asset for Scotland.

 

WM wont be giving what "back". Fisheries has been an integrated UK industry for as long as I can remember. Just like agriculture, it had, before the EU, a UK policy but locally was administered by the Dept of Agriculture and Fisheries of Scotland. Gives a clue, even to nats, of what might happen post Brexit with these repatriated powers.  

[Space Mackerel]

He doesn't say that at all.

More or less he does. I don't see him saying we will be at the back of the queue with Turkey and the likes, like the media and certain posters on here used to say not so long ago.

[The Comedian]

No. We voted to remain part of the UK Parliament which Scotland, under the UK constitution, is an equal partner.

 

The Scottish electorate elects MP's to the UK Parliament.

 

Those MP's represent Scotland, the majority voted against the EU referendum in the first place and evoking article 50.

 

Therefore, Scottish votes, as an equal partner of UK do not count within a UK Parliament.

 

Which isn't hard lines or tough luck. It is an affront to democracy.

You want 5 million to have the same voting power as 50 million? Would be nice but it's not happening here.

 

If we didn't like the system we should have voted Yes. We didn't, the rest is history. It's time to take our medicine on this one, we blew it, big style.

[Space Mackerel]

Then again, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

Well done, a post not from a right wing media source. I take everything back!

 

Now, as you well know, and this is even not up for debate, there is no such thing as queue joining the EU. It is not on a first come first served basis like in Aldi's or M&S.

[Victorian]

Turkey isn't even in the queue. No realistic prospect of being considered. Mind you.... there was a time when David Cameron used to say he backed their membership bid. He used to say a lot of things back then. Some of it must have been honest.

[The Comedian]

More or less he does. I don't see him saying we will be at the back of the queue with Turkey and the likes, like the media and certain posters on here used to say not so long ago.

More or less? Well that's me convinced.

 

We can apply and have a streamlined negotiation period as we are already integrated. He says nothing more and we knew that anyway.

[aussieh]

You're both kinda right.

 

We will need to reapply as a new applicant and negotiate our own terms of membership. But we are much more compliant with entry rules so the process should hopefully be quicker.

X2, can you answer me this please, if Scotland has to reapply for EU membership, why didn't rUK indyref1. Its exactly the same. If Scotland can't keep EU membership post Brexit independence, then I don't see why rUK could've kept it either if we had voted yes in 2014. Or is it bollox and Scotland inherits the membership.

[Don Dan]

Well done, a post not from a right wing media source. I take everything back!

 

Now, as you well know, and this is even not up for debate, there is no such thing as queue joining the EU. It is not on a first come first served basis like in Aldi's or M&S.

Obviously you are unaware of the current EU applicants. It may sorry will broaden your awareness of the EU to take you nose out of the SNP little yellow book of "facts" and research the host of countries looking to joint the EU and the requirements that must be met.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Something tells me Dave would drop you like a bag of dirty washing, Gin drinker.

Bolocks. I'll kick his pus into next week.   ****n twat caused all this.      *** pig ****ing twat.

[Cruyff Turn]

You want 5 million to have the same voting power as 50 million? Now there's an affront to democracy.

 

If we didn't like the system we should have voted Yes. We didn't, the rest is history. It's time to take our medicine on this one, we blew it, big style.

It would be. Like Scottish MP's voting on English matters. It was a constitutional problem which was meant to be solved by Devolution, it has probably made things worse.

 

When it is something of that magnitude then Scotland's vote should be listened too. It hasn't been. London may be allowed to stay within the single market but Teresa May can't even be ersed acknowledging a Country.

 

Yes. You're right. We blew it, we should have left then but we will probably have a 2nd opportunity to do so now. Lets not make the same mistake twice and be trapped within this constitutional cluster**** for another decade, 20 years or whatever it may be.

[Don Dan]

Well done, a post not from a right wing media source. I take everything back!

Now, as you well know, and this is even not up for debate, there is no such thing as queue joining the EU. It is not on a first come first served basis like in Aldi's or M&S.

Just to help your ignorance.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

[Space Mackerel]

More or less? Well that's me convinced.

 

We can apply and have a streamlined negotiation period as we are already integrated. He says nothing more and we knew that anyway.

He says all of our legislation meets the criteria, as it stands now, what else do you want?

 

Legislation binds a country together, in the case of the EU it was 28 countries. The Leave campaign said that the EU legislation was supposedly holding them back but we know it was immigration that was their main playing card over time.

[Space Mackerel]

Just to help your ignorance.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

All you've proved is that there's more countries wanting to join the EU than the 1 planning to leave!

 

1/10 for effort.

[Nookie Bear]

Chair of the European Parliament on Foreign Affairs says we'll be back in nae bother though.

 

https://twitter.com/scotlandstewart/status/841698670772903937

You have a go at Geoff for not watching a 1 hour documentary and you can't be bothered to actually watch a 41 second clip you posted yourself.

 

He says Scotland meets the legal needs to be admitted, that's all, so negotiations in that respect will be easy. Everyone accepts that.

 

But still will not happen overnight and needs the ratification of existing members.

[JamboX2]

X2, can you answer me this please, if Scotland has to reapply for EU membership, why didn't rUK indyref1. Its exactly the same. If Scotland can't keep EU membership post Brexit independence, then I don't see why rUK could've kept it either if we had voted yes in 2014. Or is it bollox and Scotland inherits the membership.

Because independence doesn't affect the international treaties and obligations of the UK. After all, Scotland would merely leave the union. The union of Wales, England and NI continues as was without Scotland.

 

Scotland would be a new nation.

The UK continues on.

 

That's your answer.

[The Comedian]

He says all of our legislation meets the criteria, as it stands now, what else do you want?

 

Legislation binds a country together, in the case of the EU it was 28 countries. The Leave campaign said that the EU legislation was supposedly holding them back but we know it was immigration that was their main playing card over time.

Err, nothing as I don't want to join or be in the EU.

 

Old Elmor can't say shit other than the waffle above. What's new in telling us we meet the criteria? Nothing. He doesn't know if we will be vetoed.

[Don Dan]

All you've proved is that there's more countries wanting to join the EU than the 1 planning to leave!

 

1/10 for effort.

You obviously didn't read it. Hey I'd didn't expect you to. It explains your ignorance of the EU and how difficult it is to become a member.

 

Anyway I don't like seeing ignorant people missing out on education so here's a wee bit enlightenment. No thanks required as I know you think you're superior. [emoji1360]

 

"In the Balkans the breakaway territory of Kosovo is last in the queue to join the EU because the international community remains split over its 2008 declaration of independence."

 

 

 

 

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[aussieh]

Can countries veto us just joining the single market? As opposed to full EU membership?

Naebdaes vetoing embdae. Spain will be felt to shut its face, Christ Catalonia will be gone before we do and they have 95% of Spain's wealth.

[aussieh]

You don't half make some wild assumptions in that one sentence.

What? And you don't with Scotland is doomed chat if goes itself.

[Space Mackerel]

You obviously didn't read it. Hey I'd didn't expect you to. It explains your ignorance of the EU and how difficult it is to become a member.

 

Anyway I don't like seeing ignorant people missing out on education so here's a wee bit enlightenment. No thanks required as I know you think you're superior. [emoji1360]

 

"In the Balkans the breakaway territory of Kosovo is last in the queue to join the EU because the international community remains split over its 2008 declaration of independence."

 

 

 

 

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You need to read up on the history post Balkans War and see who sees Kosovo as an single independent state. Get back to me after. [emoji106]

[jack D and coke]

You obviously didn't read it. Hey I'd didn't expect you to. It explains your ignorance of the EU and how difficult it is to become a member.

 

Anyway I don't like seeing ignorant people missing out on education so here's a wee bit enlightenment. No thanks required as I know you think you're superior. [emoji1360]

 

"In the Balkans the breakaway territory of Kosovo is last in the queue to join the EU because the international community remains split over its 2008 declaration of independence."

 

 

 

 

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We're only getting compared to a war torn country already!

See this type of shite, this is what pushed me to a Yes last time. Drives me absolutely mental!

[Malinga the Swinga]

You are one fecking rude individual, these debates should never become personal, beats me how you get away with insulting Spacey in such a personal way.

 

Does it make you feel like a man??

 

  

Would i  personally engage in any kind of dialog with someone who uses insults and personnel character slandering on here never mind out side of the inter net, like feck i would.  .

 

It seems that you have real issues with anyone who does not conform with your rigid status quo out look on world events , people are different whether you like it or not  and whether  it conforms with your take on life, get over it..

 

You need to really look at your decorum and mannerism on here, tell me you are not  like this in real life when you engage in debates with those of a different out look on world events.

 

 

If the people of Scotland decide to vote for Independence then no amount of insults and character assassinations  are going to change that. Cant be good for your blood pressure getting all worked up.

 

Using your other logon to back yourself up are we. Must be because there can't be two simpletons, both believing in conspiracies, both believing in fairy tales, on the same football forum. Guess I should be grateful because at least you replied in words and not just you tube links as is normal.

 

I reckon it is important to know the type of person you are debating with on this sort of forum. I don't agree with a lot of people but in the main, you can argue against them and still respect their point of view. In the case of SM and yourself (and I reckon you could well be the same poster), you try to come over as sensible on this thread, but that view must be held against the malicious and disgusting posts you make on other threads. If people don't know the views you hold, then they are not seeing the whole picture of who you are and what you represent.

 

Me, my blood pressure is fine, this is a microcosm of Scotland and a lot of flippant remarks can be made and ignored, and what will be will be. Independence or no independence, I will still be Scottish, still live here, bring my family up here and most likely die here. I have friends who are pro independence and friends anti independence. I will probably have SNP supporting friends, Labour supporting friends and Conservative friends but as we don't really discuss politics, we prefer football, music and just plain conversation, to political arguments, I don't really know. Same goes for religion, I have no idea what religion friends are and I am not really bothered about finding out.

 

None of them though hold the abhorent and despicable views that you two, or one, do.

 

No need to reply, I won't be opening any more of your mails as I have no wish to discuss anything with you or the other imbecile, Planet fish.

[aussieh]

WM wont be giving what "back". Fisheries has been an integrated UK industry for as long as I can remember. Just like agriculture, it had, before the EU, a UK policy but locally was administered by the Dept of Agriculture and Fisheries of Scotland. Gives a clue, even to nats, of what might happen post Brexit with these repatriated powers.

It's not reserved to wm, but they're keeping it anyway.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Because independence doesn't affect the international treaties and obligations of the UK. After all, Scotland would merely leave the union. The union of Wales, England and NI continues as was without Scotland.

Scotland would be a new nation.

The UK continues on.

That's your answer.

You won't receive any reply as your answer is clear, concise and factual.

[Don Dan]

You need to read up on the history post Balkans War and see who sees Kosovo as an single independent state. Get back to me after. [emoji106]

Or who doesn't.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Err, nothing as I don't want to join or be in the EU.

 

Old Elmor can't say shit other than the waffle above. What's new in telling us we meet the criteria? Nothing. He doesn't know if we will be vetoed.

What's wrong with the EU? I quite like the idea of the countries of Europe coming together after centuries of warfare and giving Europe the longest period of peace in its history. I quite like the idea of free travel too amongst many other benefits.

 

Give me one point where the EU has intervened in your life where you deem it unfit, given in this day and age, you're seeing the creation of 2 or 3 more super states, China, Russia and the new USA under Trump.

[Don Dan]

You need to read up on the history post Balkans War and see who sees Kosovo as an single independent state. Get back to me after. [emoji106]

Many countries have recognised Kosovo. But Serbia is among those that do not - a group that includes Russia, China and five of the 27 EU member states - Spain, Greece, Romania, Slovakia and Cyprus.

 

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Or who doesn't.

 

 

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Easily Googled. 5 EU countries don't see it as an independent state.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-02-29/recognize-kosovo-or-pay-the-price

[aussieh]

Because independence doesn't affect the international treaties and obligations of the UK. After all, Scotland would merely leave the union. The union of Wales, England and NI continues as was without Scotland.

 

Scotland would be a new nation.

The UK continues on.

 

That's your answer.

No it doesn't, it becomes a total different entity. The act of union becomes annulled and both Parliaments kick in.

[The Comedian]

What's wrong with the EU? I quite like the idea of the countries of Europe coming together after centuries of warfare and giving Europe the longest period of peace in its history. I quite like the idea of free travel too amongst many other benefits.

 

Give me one point where the EU has intervened in your life where you deem it unfit, given in this day and age, you're seeing the creation of 2 or 3 more super states, China, Russia and the new USA under Trump.

I couldn't give a toss about any of that. I want less government not more and control over our borders.

[DanishTam10]

Yes and no.

 ha ha