Indy Ref Part Deux

[deesidejambo]

There is no chance she will allow a referendum to be a distraction while the Brexit negotiations are in progress.  I think the government will want to fight an Independence Referendum with Brexit behind them, which will leave the SNP in a weak position with no economic policy, no separate currency, and no place in the EU.

Robertson at PMQs stressed again the Market negotiations as opposed to EU, otherwise Indy2 will be called.  Seems to me May has an opportunity to re-engage SNP on the negotiations and if happy Indy2 will not be called.

 

Over to Theresa.

[Bazzas right boot]

Its not as bad as the SNP who want to be independent yet give up all their powers to the EU.

 

lol around 6-8% of law is decided by the EU, an EU that includes us and we HAVE to agree to as well.

 

I don't want the EU to have a say on around 8% of our laws but I'm happy to be run almost completely buy another country in order to stop that.....

 

This argument in all honesty is the worse one. Makes no sense.

 

Voting no because of the EU doesn't make sense.

TBF plenty other reason do, that one does not.

[Bazzas right boot]

There is no chance she will allow a referendum to be a distraction while the Brexit negotiations are in progress.  I think the government will want to fight an Independence Referendum with Brexit behind them, which will leave the SNP in a weak position with no economic policy, no separate currency, and no place in the EU.

 

Another reason to support my "all in" argument and remove devolution.

 

The no side will determine a date that is advantageous to them .

The Yes side can change the nature of the battle  by removing devolution, promising to fall in line with the UK or becoming independent.

 

As above both sides will play politics.

[The Don]

Its not as bad as the SNP who want to be independent yet give up all their powers to the EU.

Think people are confusing things here or trying to create a reason for independence that isn't there.

 

May/Tories etc are not the Ines that decided to take us out the EU. A UK wide referendum was held and the people voted and Leave won the vote. The UK government no matter who was in power are charged with the task to honour the democratic decision by the people and to get the best possible deal for the country.

 

As far as independence is concerned the SNP are pushing for it through any means possible, they want another referendum and are using any opportunistic angle or loophole. Even though polls in Scotland showed there is not a majority in favour of another referendum so soon.

 

So in one case we have a government carrying out the wishes of the people and another one pursuing its own self interests.

 

Someone asked me earlier in here why I said there is no mandate.

 

The SNP's mandate stated unless there is material change that affects Scotland. Well until the UK actually leaves the EU no material change has happened. They can argue it might happen or will happen the same as it might not happen. Scotland could end up better off no one knows until negotiations start and then we have an end deal.

 

Noticed Tusk this morning slightly softening compared to previous rhetoric, saying he wants the EU and UK to be "great" friends and that the "Door will always be open" for the UK to return or change its mind.

 

 

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[frankblack]

Robertson at PMQs stressed again the Market negotiations as opposed to EU, otherwise Indy2 will be called.  Seems to me May has an opportunity to re-engage SNP on the negotiations and if happy Indy2 will not be called.

 

Over to Theresa.

 

The SNP are making demands that are not compatible with the Brexit mandate the UK gave the Tories, which is why they are getting treated with the contempt they deserve.

 

You can't get access to the EFTA without conceding to freedom of movement and that is the main thing Brexit is removing.  That point is non-negotiable.

 

[The Don]

lol around 6-8% of law is decided by the EU, an EU that includes us and we HAVE to agree to as well.

 

I don't want the EU to have a say on around 8% of our laws but I'm happy to be run almost completely buy another country in order to stop that.....

 

This argument in all honesty is the worse one. Makes no sense.

 

Voting no because of the EU doesn't make sense.

TBF plenty other reason do, that one does not.

 

What other country are you being run by Tosh ?

 

 

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[frankblack]

Another reason to support my "all in" argument and remove devolution.

 

The no side will determine a date that is advantageous to them .

The Yes side can change the nature of the battle  by removing devolution, promising to fall in line with the UK or becoming independent.

 

As above both sides will play politics.

 

They would need to call a referendum on that if they wanted to remove devolution as they don't have a mandate to do so.

 

[i8hibsh]

What other country are you being run by Tosh ?

 

 

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It's the old England rules us crap.  Selectively not mentioning that we have a say in the running of their country too.

[Boris]

Its not as bad as the SNP who want to be independent yet give up all their powers to the EU.

 

 

ALL their powers?  Seriously....

[The Don]

It's the old England rules us crap. Selectively not mentioning that we have a say in the running of their country too.

Selectively forgetting that 55% of Scotland in an 85% turnout voted to remain part of the UK so we're being run by the very country we are part of and voted to stay pasty of.

 

Tosh was talking about laws clearly without the understanding that the Scottish legal system is completely separate to England. So there's another nail in the coffin of his theory.

 

Another nail in the coffin is he thinks only 8% of laws are made by the EU.... official government figures say it's 14% as of 2014

 

 

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[i8hibsh]

 

ALL their powers?  Seriously....

 

 

You don't think Scotland has a lot of power?  We are at the head table of all political world meetings.

[Boris]

The SNP are making demands that are not compatible with the Brexit mandate the UK gave the Tories, which is why they are getting treated with the contempt they deserve.

 

You can't get access to the EFTA without conceding to freedom of movement and that is the main thing Brexit is removing.  That point is non-negotiable.

 

 

I must have missed the freedom of movement clause on my EU referendum ballot paper.

[Boris]

You don't think Scotland has a lot of power?  We are at the head table of all political world meetings.

 

[i8hibsh]

 

 

Scotland as part of the UK have powers way beyond our means.

 

SNP are a poxy 2 bit government in a Wendy House of a building - i have no interets in discussing the powers they crave.

[Boris]

Scotland as part of the UK have powers way beyond our means.

 

SNP are a poxy 2 bit government in a Wendy House of a building - i have no interets in discussing the powers they crave.

 

Whatever, not sure how your comment related to the post of mine you quoted.

[Doogz]

The driver of change is always in a difficult position, particularly if things are not that bad., which they are not. we are not getting murdered in the street.

 

It didn't stop Brexit

[frankblack]

I must have missed the freedom of movement clause on my EU referendum ballot paper.

 

Its the clause the EU have made it clear they won't budge on so to implement Brexit that has to go.

 

[AlimOzturk]

Nobody else worried about the influx of EU immigration if we do someone how manage to get independence and join the eu?

[i8hibsh]

Nobody else worried about the influx of EU immigration if we do someone how manage to get independence and join the eu?

 

 

Racist

[The Comedian]

Nobody else worried about the influx of EU immigration if we do someone how manage to get independence and join the eu?

I am as posted earlier.

 

The SNP would ruin this country if it was left to them. They'd open the taps like New Labour did from 97 onwards.

[i8hibsh]

I am as posted earlier.

 

 

And I think it is safe to say I am.

[Boris]

Its the clause the EU have made it clear they won't budge on so to implement Brexit that has to go.

 

 

Leaving the EU is one thing, immigration policy another.

 

Leave said we'd still be in the single market.  Spot the contradiction?

[Pans Jambo]

Nobody else worried about the influx of EU immigration if we do someone how manage to get independence and join the eu?

Naw.

More worried about them leaving if we dont.

[Space Mackerel]

Here is a piece that Liam Fox (disgraced former defence minister if you recall) wrote back in 2012...

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2ee5b8de-5c8d-11e1-8f1f-00144feabdc0

 

The key bit is here

 

 

Real reason for Brexit? Get rid of employment rights? NIce bunch, eh?

 

These are the architects of the UK's departure from the EU. It isn't about "taking back control" or even about immigration, those are just smokescreens to ensnare the gullible. People like Farage and Fox don't care about anything other than business and making business rich. People? Hell, they're just human resources! A fuel for business to consume and discard when its usefullness is done.

 

Is this a Britain you want?

That makes utterly sickening reading.

 

 

 

 

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[Boris]

Nobody else worried about the influx of EU immigration if we do someone how manage to get independence and join the eu?

 

Not me.

[XB52]

I would like to see a indy Scotland in EFTA better than the EU or staying part of the UK, sorry Stuart.   

 

I will be voting YES.    

that would be my preference too.

[i8hibsh]

Naw.

More worried about them leaving if we dont.

 

 

Bullshit alert!

[JamboX2]

PMQ's and May just slapped down an angry SNP MP. Told her that the First Minister was indeed returned in the last election albeit with a MINORITY government, and went on to say quite rightly the people of Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK and it was the people of the UK that decided to leave the EU, she said Salmond (who is sitting there) said that the last referendum was a "once in a generation" vote.

 

Does this give us a signal that May might reject any proposal by the SNP for an Indyref 2?

 

 

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Playing hardball. She'll consent. But imo, she'll set the date and the SNP govt the question.

 

All imo.

[Bazzas right boot]

It didn't stop Brexit

 

Thing is, I think for some English towns it really is bad not escape from LA bad, but if the reports are to be believed some towns feel they are over run by immigrant's, employment is high, social services etc are collapsing .

 

No surprise that the places that are relatively ok, Scotland, London, most other major citys all voted some 70% + yes.

Scotland is imo protected by the snp in many ways and London has always been the darling, places like Hull, Luton, Grimsby, northern towns ( i'm guessing0 are all in a pretty bad way.

A documentary on Cornwell was quite interesting on that 70%+ leave, very deprived area and going to lose more money after the eu funding stops, it was one of only a few places in Britain that was legible for the eu emergency funding. so a place in the shit is going to get worse, and they voted for it... ring any bells?

The council was in a panic, the government won't make yup the difference. This is true for many places that receive eu funding.

 

Even Edinburgh College gets funding from the EU, leaving the EU will effect the working man, the rich won't even notice, but the working man who was pissed off, voted for the change will be even worse off. Shame.

 

 

It was a documentary.

[Bazzas right boot]

Leaving the EU is one thing, immigration policy another.

 

Leave said we'd still be in the single market.  Spot the contradiction?

 

The thing is we have the means to control immigration, we don't use them fully.

[aussieh]

I am having a house party on Saturday - ALL welcome.

 

Result : House overflowing, people partying in the streets, tearing up the garden, furniture broken, valuables stolen, not enough drink to go round, walls vandalised, fighting and police being called.

 

Or

 

I am having a house party on Saturday and it is invite only.

 

Result : great night had by all.

That's down to what your party is, or is it a rave.

 

Some people can start a fight in an empty Hoose.

[Thunderstruck]

You can't guarantee something to win a vote, then totally renege.

Is it safe to say that you think that no matter which Party?

[Doogz]

Thing is, I think for some English towns it really is bad not escape from LA bad, but if the reports are to be believed some towns feel they are over run by immigrant's, employment is high, social services etc are collapsing .

 

No surprise that the places that are relatively ok, Scotland, London, most other major citys all voted some 70% + yes.

Scotland is imo protected by the snp in many ways and London has always been the darling, places like Hull, Luton, Grimsby, northern towns ( i'm guessing0 are all in a pretty bad way.

A documentary on Cornwell was quite interesting on that 70%+ leave, very deprived area and going to lose more money after the eu funding stops, it was one of only a few places in Britain that was legible for the eu emergency funding. so a place in the shit is going to get worse, and they voted for it... ring any bells?

The council was in a panic, the government won't make yup the difference. This is true for many places that receive eu funding.

 

Even Edinburgh College gets funding from the EU, leaving the EU will effect the working man, the rich won't even notice, but the working man who was pissed off, voted for the change will be even worse off. Shame.

 

 

It was a documentary.

Firstly and most importantly if you're going to reference a film make it the classic 'Escape From New York' not the inferior sequel.

If the SNP is already protecting Scotland then what's the need to push for independence - particularly while we're years away from finding out how Brexit will impact us ?

And why add in a clause to the referendum that could remove Holyrood if independence fails - isn't Holyrood where the SNP has the most power to protect us ?

Seems to me you want to force people to choose 1 of 2 different new scenarios rather than giving them the option to stick with the existing set-up and you're main motivation to do so is to try and encourage people to choose your preferred outcome - smacks of political skulduggery and I'm sure you would be the highlighting that very fact if the remain side tried to manipulate the question in their favour.

[Nookie Bear]

  

Theresa May is dragging the UK under. This time Scotland must cut the rope | George Monbiot

Britain is politically dead from the neck down. Leaving the union may be risky, but staying is worse

 

 

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

 

You need to start thinking for yourself.

[deesidejambo]

 

You need to start thinking for yourself.

How many times has he been told that,. The irony with Daftie conspiracy theorists is they accuse others of believing what they are fed by MSM for example but then do exactly the same from Infowars or Icke.

 

But they do quote MSM when they report something they believe in

[i8hibsh]

Has the freedom of movement of EU citizens negatively impacted Scotland up to now?

 

So far I would say that immigration from outside of the EU has not been an issue either, there are only a few changes to this system that the SNP have said they wanted, I don't see us having an open border for all.

 

For me it is not an issue.

 

What gets me with this is the ?How will we cope without EU migrants??  is that this is from the people that try to tell us all how well we will cope without the English, Welsh etc but we will somehow implode without EU migrants.  Like Armageddon will be upon us should we stop the open flow of migrants to our shores.  We survived the past three hundred years and indeed thrived as part of a UK without the EU.  Have we improved the past 44 years or so?.

 

There are many migrants who I would not wish to lose and they are the ones that contribute and contribute well.  The ones who respect our cultures, keep on the right side of the law and live their life as it should be lived. I would not evict anyone, if they are here then so be it but the doors shut from now.  There are hundreds of thousands of people in the UK waiting for social housing etc, then you have the cretins who want to see a whole bunch of refugees get fast tracked in before them.

 

Anyone who wants open borders in an independent Scotland are so full of shite it is worrying.  We are not talking a Slovenia etc here, we would be the desired choice for many.  So we have a country with dwindling oil revenues, huge debt and a massive deficit and yet some people want an endless amount of people coming in looking for a bit of our action. I?m sorry but I work my ****ing arse off I am not wanting to throw this away.  There is absolutely no way it is financially/economically viable to have unlimited migration in to such a small, new and financially burdened country.

 

Then we have the huge security risk.  We have enough scum bags in our country we do not need anymore.  The SNPs we will be ?a?body?s pal? attitude is something so ridiculous they should be hung drawn and quartered for being so ****ing stupid.  

[maroonlegions]

Well here are some points that i feel are worth adding here.

 

Were the Scottish electorate blatantly lied to by the "Better Together" spin doctors about Scotland's future  place within the EU??

 

And if  those  unionist lies  are based on any kind of facts then dont the Scottish electoral  deserve another chance to make up their minds.??

 

 

 

 

 

Does the above simple depiction argue the case for another Scottish independence referendum based on our future within the EU.

 

Did Scotland not vote to remain within the EU??

[The Don]

Well here are some points that i feel are worth adding here.

Were the Scottish electorate blatantly lied to by the "Better Together" spin doctors about Scotland's future place within the EU??

And if those unionist lies are based on any kind of facts then dont the Scottish electoral deserve another chance to make up their minds.??

 

 

 

 

 

Does the above simple depiction argue the case for another Scottish independence referendum based on our future within the EU.

 

Did Scotland not vote to remain within the EU??

It was NOT the UK governments decision to leave the EU it was the people of the UK, you know the country Scotland voted to remain part of ? That voted to leave the EU.

 

 

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Both sides have a get out that may stop the whole palaver.

 

Robertson at PMQs repeated that unless They get an agreement on Brexit strategy then Indy2 is called.

 

May should go after that and within reason give some ground to the SNP such that an agreement is reached.

 

But if the SNP simply won't be satisfied no matter what then they become the real culprits.

 

Over to May. Give Nicola a call and sort it out so both parties can say they achieved something and the turmoil of Indy2 is averted for now

 

It's a chance for May to look a bit more like a peacemaker and Nicola can say the SNP got what they wanted.

 

Prob wishful thinking

[Bazzas right boot]

hhhh

[Nookie Bear]

Both sides have a get out that may stop the whole palaver.

Robertson at PMQs repeated that unless They get an agreement on Brexit strategy then Indy2 is called.

May should go after that and within reason give some ground to the SNP such that an agreement is reached.

But if the SNP simply won't be satisfied no matter what then they become the real culprits.

Over to May. Give Nicola a call and sort it out so both parties can say they achieved something and the turmoil of Indy2 is averted for now

It's a chance for May to look a bit more like a peacemaker and Nicola can say the SNP got what they wanted.

Prob wishful thinking

I don't believe the SNP want that agreement. I believe they want to give the impression that Indy2 is their only option and blaming it on Westminster an ideal scenario.

 

The Brexit vote was a lifeline for the SNP, not a disaster.

[frankblack]

Both sides have a get out that may stop the whole palaver.

 

Robertson at PMQs repeated that unless They get an agreement on Brexit strategy then Indy2 is called.

 

May should go after that and within reason give some ground to the SNP such that an agreement is reached.

 

But if the SNP simply won't be satisfied no matter what then they become the real culprits.

 

Over to May. Give Nicola a call and sort it out so both parties can say they achieved something and the turmoil of Indy2 is averted for now

 

It's a chance for May to look a bit more like a peacemaker and Nicola can say the SNP got what they wanted.

 

Prob wishful thinking

 

The SNP engineered Brexit by stirring up English Nationalism with their Westminster antics and passive aggressive stance to all things non-Scottish down there.

 

The SNP have offered "compromises" to the Tories that are completely unworkable and are basically an ultimatum to scrap Brexit or they call the Indy 2 referendum.

 

The Tories will give them the referendum but not on the SNP terms, and well after Brexit is finished and we have left both the EU and Single Market.

 

[Boris]

The SNP engineered Brexit by stirring up English Nationalism with their Westminster antics and passive aggressive stance to all things non-Scottish down there.

 

The SNP have offered "compromises" to the Tories that are completely unworkable and are basically an ultimatum to scrap Brexit or they call the Indy 2 referendum.

 

The Tories will give them the referendum but not on the SNP terms, and well after Brexit is finished and we have left both the EU and Single Market.

 

The SNP engineered Brexit ????

[Space Mackerel]

I see Wings have done an in depth article utterly destroying the GERS figures and how they are obtained. All backed up by independent parties, right and left wing.

 

I won't link on here as the usual economic expert Yoon frothers will be out as per norm.

 

Look it up anyway that's interested.

[frankblack]

The SNP engineered Brexit ????

 

The SNP engineered the rise in English Nationalism, with the first Indy Referendum and then voting on English Only matters leading to English Votes for English Matters.

 

Meanwhile UKIP gained popularity, and David Cameron tried to kill off the rise in UKIP with the Brexit referendum vote but it backfired.

[Space Mackerel]

Your analysis is complete fantasy.

What he really meant to say was that England felt like it wasn't getting enough attention in the news during indyref1 so it thought it would conjure up a referendum so it could feel just as important again. They used a red bus and the slogan "take back control"

 

Then it all went tits up.

[Sraman]

That Trumps a clever old trout, he has the whole country blaming the Russkies for his triumph when all along it was the SNP. All that falling out with wee Eck over wind farms was all smoke and mirrors. Who'd a thunk it?

[The Don]

I see Wings have done an in depth article utterly destroying the GERS figures and how they are obtained. All backed up by independent parties, right and left wing.

 

I won't link on here as the usual economic expert Yoon frothers will be out as per norm.

 

Look it up anyway that's interested.

Wings over Scotland Haha

 

The website/blog ran by a complete xenophobic arse hole that mocked the Hillsborough tragedy. Hmmm given the shite some posters have said you believe in I suppose it's no surprise you'd be into that horrible vile page.

 

 

Our own first minister and party gives credibility to GERS figures FFS. It's an independent body ran by the Scottish government and Scottish office.

 

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[Doogz]

The SNP engineered the rise in English Nationalism, with the first Indy Referendum and then voting on English Only matters leading to English Votes for English Matters.

 

Meanwhile UKIP gained popularity, and David Cameron tried to kill off the rise in UKIP with the Brexit referendum vote but it backfired.

 

Nah Sorry , SNP had the 1st referendum to try and win independence - it may have upset some in England but it wasn't engineered to achieve this.

On voting on English matters you may have a point - I'm sure this will have annoyed a few but given the lack of impact of their votes I doubt it was significant & don't think this had any impact on Brexit.

[AlphonseCapone]

The SNP engineered Brexit by stirring up English Nationalism with their Westminster antics and passive aggressive stance to all things non-Scottish down there.

 

The SNP have offered "compromises" to the Tories that are completely unworkable and are basically an ultimatum to scrap Brexit or they call the Indy 2 referendum.

 

The Tories will give them the referendum but not on the SNP terms, and well after Brexit is finished and we have left both the EU and Single Market.

 

You're off your rocker.