Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[Guest]

Democracy and societal restructuring/reinforcing? Don't think I mentioned flag waving.

 

Obviously, though, from a Marxist perspective EVERYTHING is about the economy and the relationships within.

 

Getting old? Hahaha, well, perhaps (45 years old) but that also means I've lived through a fair bit and I can't help but feel that our society has regressed somewhat, there doesn't seem to be any real feeling of the common good but rather a what's in it for me sort of culture. Broadly speaking of course.

It may it may not improve democratic process and social restructuring. I guess a bit like brexit may have given the nhs an extra ?50M a week claim (or whatever the claim was), it could but never in a million years would it.

 

I guess referendum in wider sense don't give anyone, anything concrete. It's not like it's a party manefisto as such which politicians can be held accountable for. I guess that's the advantage for the side suggesting the change it can be anything to anyone.

 

I didn't say you mentioned flag waving. I just haven't seen any argument other than economics and flag waving. Which in some ways democracy and social restructuring (whatever that means) are. It essentially it assumes Scotland will change direction pretty significantly based on nothing more than Scottish people inherently good, English/Welsh people not so much.

 

Haha on Marxism, but it's true everything is about the economy it drives everything in reality. Social restructuring (whatever that means) would be driven by economy. Successful economy generally results in increased standard of living, social mobility etc. Shit economieds do not and undoubtably hit poorer in society hardest. That in turn breeds the behaviours you despise, IMO.

[Space Mackerel]

And, the ?3bn comes from where exactly?

John Swinney had to sit outside 10 Downing Street for 8 months with a flea infested blanket, a 3 legged blind dug and an old cup from Starbucks.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aussieh]

I'll bow to your experience in polishing turds.

[aussieh]

John Swinney had to sit outside 10 Downing Street for 8 months with a flea infested blanket, a 3 legged blind dug and an old cup from Starbucks.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

He's devolving power to Schools/Head teachers, not a bad start on Education reform. Councils are getting bypassed.

[Guest]

It is very difficult to ignore the arguments that you call flag waving. A people and a countries sense of place can be very important both socially and economically.

 

The democratic benefit of electing our own accountable governments should also not be underplayed.

 

In the last 100 years there have been countless countries gain their independence in many different circumstances, with various degrees of success and as far as I can tell they are all pretty happy about it.

So it essentially flag waving and economics then. That's not criticism, just an observation. Fair enough flag waving is important to some people. I'm just surprised flag waving has become so popular, when it's not really been that way in the past particularly when we live in a much more global society. I just thought must have been more to do it than that.

 

We democratically elect our own accountable governments. The argument we don't is incredibly disengenous IMO.

 

Over the last 100 years lots of countries have chosen to stay together, Scotland being one, as far as I can tell are pretty happy about it lol. The majority of Scottish population still remain in that position.

 

If the time comes when they are not happy about it no doubt they will vote to change it.

[Space Mackerel]

He's devolving power to Schools/Head teachers, not a bad start on Education reform. Councils are getting bypassed.

So I read. No doubt that will bring the frothers out.

[JamboX2]

Why didn't they red or blue Tory, or is it the SNPs small reign to blame?

The SNP have run Scotland for longer than the previous Lab-Lib coalition. In fact, they have led Scotland longer than anyone else this century.

 

Here's a shocker, they have a huge ability to radically shape the lives of Scots. The Holyrood parliament is the strongest it's ever been and have more resource behind it than ever before.

 

So, where's the radical use of these powers? Nowhere to be seen.

[pablo]

He's devolving power to Schools/Head teachers, not a bad start on Education reform. Councils are getting bypassed.

Agreed. I like the sound of this a lot.

[aussieh]

The SNP have run Scotland for longer than the previous Lab-Lib coalition. In fact, they have led Scotland longer than anyone else this century.

 

Here's a shocker, they have a huge ability to radically shape the lives of Scots. The Holyrood parliament is the strongest it's ever been and have more resource behind it than ever before.

 

So, where's the radical use of these powers? Nowhere to be seen.

So what about pre devo, X2. I dont remember snp rule then. And see these powers why did big Broony not give them up during Nlabour reign of 13 yrs?. And lablib were in for a while too, so geez peace.

[JamboX2]

Blimey.

 

Of course it was the SNP's fault that the UK elected a Tory Government.

 

Nothing todo with the Winter of Discontent, spiralling unemployment, general economic and industrial malaise, industrial relations at a low ebb, all under a Labour Government. It was the SNP's fault Thatcher had to fight and win an election. An election that the SNP lost 9 of its 11 seats in.

 

It was their fault, right enough.

Brought forward the vote of no confidence though. What was it foot said? Thatcher hid behind an SNP shield being held by a Liberal child? Something like that.

 

The SNP's error set them back a generation. Roy Hattersly wrote in his memoirs that he spokebto Gordon Wilson after the vote. Wilson said the SNP would return with a huge Scottish mandate. Hattersly bet him a fiver he wouldn't. Hattersly wrote "I never did get my fiver" as a footnote.

 

The biggest miscalculation in the history of the SNP. They sided against a government in favour of Scottish devolution and backed a woman who had no interest in it.

 

Equally, the SNP played straight into Lynton Crosby's hands in 2015. A huge majority of Scottish seats and left impotent by playing the tune the Tories wanted them to.

[JamboX2]

So what about pre devo, X2. I dont remember snp rule then. And see these powers why did big Broony not give them up during Nlabour reign of 13 yrs?. And lablib were in for a while too, so geez peace.

Incomparable. You speak of Scottish governance for today and tomorrow and reference a time 20 years ago. Again, you shift the goal posts.

 

Broony wit? No sense.

 

Edit: Lab-Lib abolished tuition fees, gave us proportional representation at local level, the smoking ban, schools for the future, invested ?1bn into anti-poverty funding, ended the ban on teaching kids about homosexual relationships, introduced civil partnerships, invested in the NHS to record levels and presided over a drop in sectarian crime. A pretty good record.

[aussieh]

Incomparable. You speak of Scottish governance for today and tomorrow and reference a time 20 years ago. Again, you shift the goal posts.

Holyrood is an admin centre with a budget cut coming from Wm it has to administer to the people of Scotland. Thank feck its the SNP doing the firefighting.

[Old Hearts]

Holyrood is an admin centre with a budget cut coming from Wm it has to administer to the people of Scotland. Thank feck its the SNP doing the firefighting.

Blah blah blah ..... blame Tories .... blah blah blah .... blame Westminster .... blah blah blah

 

Above summarises all your posts.

[Space Mackerel]

Incomparable. You speak of Scottish governance for today and tomorrow and reference a time 20 years ago. Again, you shift the goal posts.

 

Broony wit? No sense.

 

Edit: Lab-Lib abolished tuition fees, gave us proportional representation at local level, the smoking ban, schools for the future, invested ?1bn into anti-poverty funding, ended the ban on teaching kids about homosexual relationships, introduced civil partnerships, invested in the NHS to record levels and presided over a drop in sectarian crime. A pretty good record.

I'll bet you'll be supporting Owen Smith then?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JamboX2]

Holyrood is an admin centre with a budget cut coming from Wm it has to administer to the people of Scotland. Thank feck its the SNP doing the firefighting.

 Wrong. Holyrood has a huge wealth of power. It so much more than an administration centre.

 

You belittle your nation by suggesting it is that.

[JamboX2]

The SNP got rid of tuition fees

 

Wrong. Simply wrong. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/dec/21/scotland.tuitionfees 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/618698.stm

 

It was a key aspect and platform of the coalition between Labour and the Liberals and was a deal breaker for the Liberals. The SNP abolished the endowment (http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0042/00423180.pdf), a totally different thing. Equally, let us not forget that the original key plank of the SNP's offer in 2007 was to abolish student debt. 

 

From their 2007 Manifesto, page 11 (http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ass07/man/scot/snp.pdf):

 

"? Replacing the expensive and discredited Student Loans system

 ? Removing the burden of the debt repayments owed to the Student Loans Company by Scottish domiciled and resident graduates"

 

Neither of which was done by the way. The above again is confirmed here, http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/apr/12/scotland.devolution1. 

 

Channel 4 factcheck, specifically on the student debt issue: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-snp-failed-deliver/21455

 

"But this 2014 University of Edinburgh report found that, even in the absence of tuition fees, Scottish students on low incomes can expect to graduate with as much debt as those from the rest of the UK.

It said: ?From 2013-14, there have been significant reductions in grant and a considerable increase in the use of student loans to support living costs in Scotland.

?Scotland is unique in having a system which assigns the highest student debt to those from the lowest income homes, due to its much lower use of student grant.?

 

This is an issue close to me, I campaigned on this stuff as a student. To me the SNP speak with fork tongue on this. I saw people my age drop out of university due to not being able to afford it, to incur the debt would've crippled them. The student finance and higher and further education system under the SNP has been an abject failure.

[aussieh]

Blah blah blah ..... blame Tories .... blah blah blah .... blame Westminster .... blah blah blah

 

Above summarises all your posts.

WM get it right, it doesn't matter who's in power.

[aussieh]

Wrong. Holyrood has a huge wealth of power. It so much more than an administration centre.

 

You belittle your nation by suggesting it is that.

I didn't vote no, and if you think that's good enough you're just as bad.

[SwindonJambo]

Very kind of you to say.  Thank you.

 

Regards currency, an Indy Scotland should set up its own one, IMO.  I certainly don't think that independnece is an immediate "cure".  It will be difficult and lots of hard work, but ultimately, I think worth it.

Well there we are in complete agreement- if Scotland did go independent I'd definitely want it to have its own currency as having a foreign country being lender of last resort makes no sense to me. We'd have to take on a population share of UK national debt so we'd begin with a debt burden of around ?140bn. With a new currency, we'd be paying a lot of interest on that debt until we gained a credit rating. A lot of civil service type jobs which serve the UK as a whole are based in Scotland, especially HMRC and no doubt they'd have to be moved.

 

With oil being a dead duck, Scotland would have to aggressively push and promote all the other things it does well - tourism, food and drink are strong. We've got Banking and insurance in Edinburgh which do well, the bailouts notwithstanding. Biotechnology is strong in Scotland and we have a history of successful spin-out companies from Universities, notably Dundee's thriving computer games industry.

 

The first few years would be very, very tough for sure with huge cuts needed to balance the books and a lot of very upset people . But Scotland could survive on its own one way or the other, if enough people make that choice. I don't want it to, but I'd accept and embrace it and hope the people in charge were equal to the task. But people would have to accept that it would be no silver bullet. Some people seem to think it is a triumphal end in itself. It would merely be the start of a long hard journey, which would hopefully work out well in the end.

[Space Mackerel]

Well there we are in complete agreement- if Scotland did go independent I'd definitely want it to have its own currency as having a foreign country being lender of last resort makes no sense to me. We'd have to take on a population share of UK national debt so we'd begin with a debt burden of around ?140bn. With a new currency, we'd be paying a lot of interest on that debt until we gained a credit rating. A lot of civil service type jobs which serve the UK as a whole are based in Scotland, especially HMRC and no doubt they'd have to be moved.

 

With oil being a dead duck, Scotland would have to aggressively push and promote all the other things it does well - tourism, food and drink are strong. We've got Banking and insurance in Edinburgh which do well, the bailouts notwithstanding. Biotechnology is strong in Scotland and we have a history of successful spin-out companies from Universities, notably Dundee's thriving computer games industry.

 

The first few years would be very, very tough for sure with huge cuts needed to balance the books and a lot of very upset people . But Scotland could survive on its own one way or the other, if enough people make that choice. I don't want it to, but I'd accept and embrace it and hope the people in charge were equal to the task. But people would have to accept that it would be no silver bullet. Some people seem to think it is a triumphal end in itself. It would merely be the start of a long hard journey, which would hopefully work out well in the end.

We also would be entitled to 8-9% of UK net assets. It's the UK who can't afford for us to leave, not the other way around.

[Space Mackerel]

.

[SwindonJambo]

We also would be entitled to 8-9% of UK net assets. It's the UK who can't afford for us to leave, not the other way around.

Yes I know - assets and liabilities. There would be some kind of trade off in the exit negotiations I'd think. I'm being pragmatic and objective, not confrontational. Scotland would probably be able to negotiate a reduction in that national debt share by giving up said 8-9% in some of these UK assets. Even if we could start with a blank sheet of no debt, we'd still have an annual revenue deficit which would either require big spending cuts, taking on debt or tax increases.

[Space Mackerel]

Yes I know - assets and liabilities. There would be some kind of trade off in the exit negotiations I'd think. I'm being pragmatic and objective, not confrontational. Scotland would probably be able to negotiate a reduction in that national debt share by giving up said 8-9% in some of these UK assets. Even if we could start with a blank sheet of no debt, we'd still have an annual revenue deficit which would either require big spending cuts, taking on debt or tax increases.

 

 

What are the value of UK net assets? We could end up in the black starting off and a healthy wedge in our tails, so to speak.

[SwindonJambo]

What are the value of UK net assets? We could end up in the black starting off and a healthy wedge in our tails, so to speak.

Hopefully so (if it happened) but I suspect we wouldn't get it all in cash and actually get some assets 'as is' such as military hardware to form our own armed services.

 

If we did end up with a healthy wedge, I just hope it would be spent wisely and not just frittered away subsidising annual revenue losses until it disappeared. We'd have big startup costs as a new sovereign state - embassies all around the World,a tax authority, tax collection systems, a central bank,a home office, foreign office, border security as there would very likely be a controlled border with England etc etc. Absolutely nothing that we're not capable of doing but very expensive.

[SwindonJambo]

These are very difficult questions to answer as the UK Gov, nor the 55% majority of No Voters, want to pre-negotiate a settlement. Scotland obviously would get the assets that are within Scotland and it would be very difficult to say what else we would be due.

Absolutely. No-one ever shows their hand in advance of a negotiation dependent on a vote. We're seeing that right now as we speak with Brexit. The negotiations for that are going to be high octane,methinks!

 

I would imagine all assets geographically located in Scotland and immovable would clearly be retained. Then there's overseas territories such as Gibralter, the Falklands etc etc. It would all be very difficult to sort out and the negotiations would be long and protracted.

[SwindonJambo]

Again some of those costs would be shared with the rUK, I think it highly unlikely we would be coming out of negotiations with a large cheque, much more likely a large bill.

I would expect some share of debt to be taken on to be honest and not a small one either. On which we'd pay interest too.

[punkrockcroc]

So the Lab-Lib Coalition renamed Tuition Fees, Graduate Endowments which the SNP Scrapped.

If Scotland ever became independent all these things that are free,tuition fees, free prescriptions, free road tolls, council tax freeze will multiply 10 fold if not by more. At the moment Scotland has the safety net of the block grant from Westminster (incidentally, is ther anybody out there that knows exactly how much this is?) with independence that will disappear, the SNP can't even manage this so who can trust them to run an independent Scotland.

[HaymarketJambo]

If Scotland ever became independent all these things that are free,tuition fees, free prescriptions, free road tolls, council tax freeze will multiply 10 fold if not by more. At the moment Scotland has the safety net of the block grant from Westminster (incidentally, is ther anybody out there that knows exactly how much this is?) with independence that will disappear, the SNP can't even manage this so who can trust them to run an independent Scotland.

 

Good to see project fear back. 

[Boris]

If Scotland ever became independent all these things that are free,tuition fees, free prescriptions, free road tolls, council tax freeze will multiply 10 fold if not by more. At the moment Scotland has the safety net of the block grant from Westminster (incidentally, is ther anybody out there that knows exactly how much this is?) with independence that will disappear, the SNP can't even manage this so who can trust them to run an independent Scotland.

 

I'd happily vote for an independent Scotland.

 

That doesn't mean I'd vote for the SNP to run it!

 

Two seperate things, easily differentiated.

[JamboX2]

So the Lab-Lib Coalition renamed Tuition Fees, Graduate Endowments which the SNP Scrapped.

No. The endowment was a graduate tax. Tuition is paid whilst undergoing education. The endowment was a tax paid by graduates after leaving uni and entering employment at a certain level of income.

 

The endowment paid for grants, access courses and positive discrimination programs to assist those from the poorest backgrounds into university. It was redistributive and I'd bring it back.

[punkrockcroc]

I'd happily vote for an independent Scotland.

 

That doesn't mean I'd vote for the SNP to run it!

 

Two seperate things, easily differentiated.

Must have plenty money then? The SNP plan is get independence regardless of the mess the country will be in after independence. So you don't care about the people of Scotland much at all then?

[AlphonseCapone]

So still free then

Hahaha nice.

[aussieh]

So still free then

[punkrockcroc]

So still free then

Free from what?

[Boris]

Must have plenty money then? The SNP plan is get independence regardless of the mess the country will be in after independence. So you don't care about the people of Scotland much at all then?

 

So leaving it to the likes of May, Johnson, Davis, Fox et al to run is much better?

Aye, whatever.

[Thunderstruck]

So still free then

No such thing as a free lunch.

 

What, in your estimation, is the opportunity cost of pursuing these policies.

[Space Mackerel]

No such thing as a free lunch.

 

What, in your estimation, is the opportunity cost of pursuing these policies.

 

 

You could always have it is now and have a low tax economy with every shareholder under the CEO demanding more and more money for goods and services. 

 

i.e Rip Off Britain

[punkrockcroc]

Jesus, it was just a wee dig at his poor Arithmetic Skills. As in Zero times Ten = Zero.

 

As in the policies I think that the free Tolls should stay and I am a firm believer in the NHS remaining free to use, so free prescriptions and free parking at hospitals should also be in place. Free/Means Tested care fore the elderly is a good policy. I think the council tax and the whole funding of local services needs completely over hauled, however I am willing to accept taxes may need to go up, these are some of the things I think it is worth paying for.

As for my "poor arithmetic skills" maybe I should've said this country will be up to our necks in debt before we even start. So how would you explain having to pay for our share of the UK's national debt which runs in excess of 1 trillion pounds?

[Boris]

As for my "poor arithmetic skills" maybe I should've said this country will be up to our necks in debt before we even start. So how would you explain having to pay for our share of the UK's national debt which runs in excess of 1 trillion pounds?

Same way as we are paying it now? Or maybe make sure everyone pays their dues?

[Space Mackerel]

Another belter from the dug:

 

The melting of the special little snowflake by weegingerdug

During the independence referendum campaign, the Yes side was pressed on every tiny detail of what would come to pass in an independent Scotland. What would be the price of a first class stamp? How many council houses were going to be built? Will there be a posthumous album from Fran and Anna - will Jock not stop whistling after all? Even an answer to these questions would only provoke further questioning on a greater level of detail. Ah yes, well the independence movement might very well give a commitment to build X number of council houses in the first five years of an independence Scotland, but they still can't tell us what the furnishings are going to be like and whether that nice glass topped table and blue fascia fronted storage unit from IKEA will still be in stock. The uncertainty! Where are people going to put that new CD from Fran and Anna that the SNP still can't tell us is going to be released? The Unionist press was full of outraged reports that the SNP expect people to accept independence without these questions being answered.

While the massed ranks of Alicsamministas were being forced to dig around in Coatbridge to discover the lost bootleg Fran and Anna tapes, the Better Together campaign wasn't being asked for any detail at all on its claims for what would happen if Scotland voted No. During the last week of the campaign when the British establishment was in full on panic mode because there had been a poll showing independence was ahead, the infamous Vow was published. Deliberated worded in a vague manner, it could have meant just about anything. Despite this, the Better Together campaign was not pressed on detail. Instead it was allowed to puff up its content free Vow so it could be presented as all things to all people. We all know how that turned out. It turned out that the Vow only meant all things to the Unionist parties. It meant bugger all to Scotland.

And now here we are in the aftermath of another referendum, and there's still no certainty about anything at all. It's only Scottish independence supporters who need to provide answers, if you're a member of the British establishment we're expected to trust you. We're expected to trust a governing class which has a centuries long history of lies and deceit. They don't call it Perfidious Albion for nothing.

We went into the EU referendum without any details of what Brexit was going to mean. Months later after the Brexit vote we still don't have any details of what it's going to mean. Are British goods and services going to have free access to the single market? No one knows. Are EU citizens living in this country and UK citizens living in EU countries going to be allowed to remain? They're being held hostage to the fortunes of an uncaring Tory party. Will we still enjoy freedom of movement throughout the EU? No one can say. The only certainty that we do have is that the promise that the Brexit campaign made to invest in the NHS wasn't actually a promise after all. It was more of a fond hope, a fond hope that isn't going to come to pass. The official position of the UK government months after the EU vote is a pathetic confused mess where cabinent ministers are free to express their own opinions because the UK government has no opinion of its own. These are the broad shoulders of the UK. Broad shoulders, but no brain. Broad shoulders, but no understanding or compassion or care. So that's broad in the sense of coarse and thick then.

The Tory government can't tell us what their plans are, and now are attempting to tell us that the fact they don't know is really a strategy. They're telling us that they're keeping it secret so Britain don't reveal its hand in negotiations. And if you believe that I've got a Vow for you. Can you imagine how the Unionist parties and the friends in the press would have reacted if the Scottish government refused to reveal any plans for independence, claiming that it was vital to keep the details secret so as not to reveal Scotland's hand in negotiations? Ruth Davidson would park her tank on the lawn outside Holyrood. Mind you she does that anyway.

The Tories are still holding out for an a la carte Brexit even though the EU has told Britain that it's a take it or leave it deal. If Britain wants free access for British goods and services to the European market, then it's got to accept free movement of people. That's a concept that's simple enough even for the most obstinate Tory to grasp, but they still persist in their arrogant fantasy that Britain is special and normal rules don't apply.

And now Nigel Farage is reduced to complaining in the EU Parliament that the EU has appointed negotiators that Nigel doesn't like. The only negotiators who are acceptable to the Brexiteers are the Brexiteers themselves. Because Britain is special. Britain is great. Britain is a unique a la carte menu in the cafeteria of life. And Johnny Foreigner just jolly well ought to do what Britain tells him. Large parts of the British right never wanted to be a full and committed part of Europe anyway, they just wanted a substitute for Empire and are in a huff because the rest of Europe isn't rolling over and cooperating.

That attitude is precisely why there are so many people in the rest of Europe who're really quite happy to see the UK leave the EU. ?Ya nunca! they're shouting as Britain goes out the exit door. That's Spanish for good riddance. They're not in the mood to do the UK any favours. Britain's been a difficult pain in the arse in the EU for decades, they'll be delighted to be rid of it. Britain's going to get no favours from the EU, the special little snowflake will melt in the heat of EU negotiations. But a Scotland that has voted to remain a part of Europe and that votes for independence, that's a Scotland that's going to encounter an ocean of goodwill from the rest of the EU.

[Mister T]

The SNP got rid of tuition fees

Not for kids from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Or Rest of UK as they like to call it in the Funding Council's TRAC return.

[Mister T]

.

This is your most coherent post. We'll done.

[Space Mackerel]

This is your most coherent post. We'll done.

That's all you've understood so far?

That says a lot about you.

[JamboX2]

You could always have it is now and have a low tax economy with every shareholder under the CEO demanding more and more money for goods and services.

 

i.e Rip Off Britain

 

Most small nations have very low corporate taxation in order to attract business in. Sadly this often leads to a higher rate of personal taxation (Scandinavian model) or to borrow to compensate in spending (Ireland).

 

As I recall, the SNP advocate the further cutting of corporate taxation.

 

Interesting to note as the SNP will form the first government of an independent Scotland and is clearly shown bybthe APD cut. More money for business.

[JamboX2]

Another belter from the dug:

The melting of the special little snowflake by weegingerdug

During the independence referendum campaign, the Yes side was pressed on every tiny detail of what would come to pass in an independent Scotland. What would be the price of a first class stamp? How many council houses were going to be built? Will there be a posthumous album from Fran and Anna - will Jock not stop whistling after all? Even an answer to these questions would only provoke further questioning on a greater level of detail. Ah yes, well the independence movement might very well give a commitment to build X number of council houses in the first five years of an independence Scotland, but they still can't tell us what the furnishings are going to be like and whether that nice glass topped table and blue fascia fronted storage unit from IKEA will still be in stock. The uncertainty! Where are people going to put that new CD from Fran and Anna that the SNP still can't tell us is going to be released? The Unionist press was full of outraged reports that the SNP expect people to accept independence without these questions being answered.

While the massed ranks of Alicsamministas were being forced to dig around in Coatbridge to discover the lost bootleg Fran and Anna tapes, the Better Together campaign wasn't being asked for any detail at all on its claims for what would happen if Scotland voted No. During the last week of the campaign when the British establishment was in full on panic mode because there had been a poll showing independence was ahead, the infamous Vow was published. Deliberated worded in a vague manner, it could have meant just about anything. Despite this, the Better Together campaign was not pressed on detail. Instead it was allowed to puff up its content free Vow so it could be presented as all things to all people. We all know how that turned out. It turned out that the Vow only meant all things to the Unionist parties. It meant bugger all to Scotland.

And now here we are in the aftermath of another referendum, and there's still no certainty about anything at all. It's only Scottish independence supporters who need to provide answers, if you're a member of the British establishment we're expected to trust you. We're expected to trust a governing class which has a centuries long history of lies and deceit. They don't call it Perfidious Albion for nothing.

We went into the EU referendum without any details of what Brexit was going to mean. Months later after the Brexit vote we still don't have any details of what it's going to mean. Are British goods and services going to have free access to the single market? No one knows. Are EU citizens living in this country and UK citizens living in EU countries going to be allowed to remain? They're being held hostage to the fortunes of an uncaring Tory party. Will we still enjoy freedom of movement throughout the EU? No one can say. The only certainty that we do have is that the promise that the Brexit campaign made to invest in the NHS wasn't actually a promise after all. It was more of a fond hope, a fond hope that isn't going to come to pass. The official position of the UK government months after the EU vote is a pathetic confused mess where cabinent ministers are free to express their own opinions because the UK government has no opinion of its own. These are the broad shoulders of the UK. Broad shoulders, but no brain. Broad shoulders, but no understanding or compassion or care. So that's broad in the sense of coarse and thick then.

The Tory government can't tell us what their plans are, and now are attempting to tell us that the fact they don't know is really a strategy. They're telling us that they're keeping it secret so Britain don't reveal its hand in negotiations. And if you believe that I've got a Vow for you. Can you imagine how the Unionist parties and the friends in the press would have reacted if the Scottish government refused to reveal any plans for independence, claiming that it was vital to keep the details secret so as not to reveal Scotland's hand in negotiations? Ruth Davidson would park her tank on the lawn outside Holyrood. Mind you she does that anyway.

The Tories are still holding out for an a la carte Brexit even though the EU has told Britain that it's a take it or leave it deal. If Britain wants free access for British goods and services to the European market, then it's got to accept free movement of people. That's a concept that's simple enough even for the most obstinate Tory to grasp, but they still persist in their arrogant fantasy that Britain is special and normal rules don't apply.

And now Nigel Farage is reduced to complaining in the EU Parliament that the EU has appointed negotiators that Nigel doesn't like. The only negotiators who are acceptable to the Brexiteers are the Brexiteers themselves. Because Britain is special. Britain is great. Britain is a unique a la carte menu in the cafeteria of life. And Johnny Foreigner just jolly well ought to do what Britain tells him. Large parts of the British right never wanted to be a full and committed part of Europe anyway, they just wanted a substitute for Empire and are in a huff because the rest of Europe isn't rolling over and cooperating.

That attitude is precisely why there are so many people in the rest of Europe who're really quite happy to see the UK leave the EU. ?Ya nunca! they're shouting as Britain goes out the exit door. That's Spanish for good riddance. They're not in the mood to do the UK any favours. Britain's been a difficult pain in the arse in the EU for decades, they'll be delighted to be rid of it. Britain's going to get no favours from the EU, the special little snowflake will melt in the heat of EU negotiations. But a Scotland that has voted to remain a part of Europe and that votes for independence, that's a Scotland that's going to encounter an ocean of goodwill from the rest of the EU.

Last paragraph... the UK has historically not favoured ever closer union. Nor has eastern European nations - hence the rise in euroskepticism in the east.

 

The Scottish political parties by and large do not favour ever closer union. The SNP don't. Scottish Tories and Greens don't. Scottish Labour too have reservations here.

 

Scotland's White Paper on independence even wanted to retain a rebate, special opt outs on home affairs and national security and spoke about not joining the euro or Schengen. I therefore find it hard to believe we are a model EU nation in the waiting. In fact we are asking for a bespoke deal despite the conditions of the Lisbon Treaty.

 

So weegingerdug is barking up the wrong tree.

[Space Mackerel]

Most small nations have very low corporate taxation in order to attract business in. Sadly this often leads to a higher rate of personal taxation (Scandinavian model) or to borrow to compensate in spending (Ireland).

 

As I recall, the SNP advocate the further cutting of corporate taxation.

 

Interesting to note as the SNP will form the first government of an independent Scotland and is clearly shown bybthe APD cut. More money for business.

Well hopefully the Scottish government will collect tax off the big corporations because the Torys and Labour don't seem to to be bothered about collecting bugger all.

 

 

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[JamboX2]

Well hopefully the Scottish government will collect tax off the big corporations because the Torys and Labour don't seem to to be bothered about collecting bugger all.

 

 

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Again, how do you stop tax evasion? It's an illegal act done through corporate loopholes. The Irish, an english speaking nation of similar attitudes and size, actively assist corporations in paying little tax. Are to go this way also?

 

Every major developed nation in thebwest suffers from this. Scotland would be no different.

 

Independence is not the magic wand that'll make corporations pay tax, be more moral and make a nation fairer. Despite what many people might think because of the independence campaign.

 

The Brexiters and the Yes supporters are cut from the same cloth. The world is bad and in a mess, so X will make it better because Y.

 

No. The world becomes better when we focus out and act and when we blame ourselves, not others for the failings we see.

[Space Mackerel]

Last paragraph... the UK has historically not favoured ever closer union. Nor has eastern European nations - hence the rise in euroskepticism in the east.

 

The Scottish political parties by and large do not favour ever closer union. The SNP don't. Scottish Tories and Greens don't. Scottish Labour too have reservations here.

 

Scotland's White Paper on independence even wanted to retain a rebate, special opt outs on home affairs and national security and spoke about not joining the euro or Schengen. I therefore find it hard to believe we are a model EU nation in the waiting. In fact we are asking for a bespoke deal despite the conditions of the Lisbon Treaty.

 

So weegingerdug is barking up the wrong tree.

Last paragraph makes no mention of the SNP wanting further and further integration though.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Again, how do you stop tax evasion? It's an illegal act done through corporate loopholes. The Irish, an english speaking nation of similar attitudes and size, actively assist corporations in paying little tax. Are to go this way also?

 

Every major developed nation in thebwest suffers from this. Scotland would be no different.

 

Independence is not the magic wand that'll make corporations pay tax, be more moral and make a nation fairer. Despite what many people might think because of the independence campaign.

 

The Brexiters and the Yes supporters are cut from the same cloth. The world is bad and in a mess, so X will make it better because Y.

 

No. The world becomes better when we focus out and act and when we blame ourselves, not others for the failings we see.

The EU were about to pass laws just before the Brexit referendum clamping down on tax evasion.

 

Somehow the UK voted out when it has its own funny laws regarding practices in the Isle of Man, Jersey and the British Virgin Islands etc.

 

Remember the Panama papers?

 

It's quite possible this whole Brexit thing has been manipulated from the start to protect these people in power and their hidden dosh.

 

 

 

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Not for kids from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Or Rest of UK as they like to call it in the Funding Council's TRAC return.

My friends daughter was turned down for a place at Edinburgh Uni because thanks to free tuition etc, the Unis need to take on more foreign and overseas students to fund the courses, meaning Scottish applicants are rejected once their quota is reached for each course.

 

Would be interested to hear from others if this is correct.  If it is, its a disgrace.