Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[Mister T]

You'd be surprise what I pay in VAT and PAYE to the Westminster exchequer, probably a lot more than you earn [emoji4]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

How do you not pay NI? And are you not set up to offset your input VAT against output? And what about CT? Are you making best use of capital allowances or are you not paying CT because you don't make a profit?

 

Sounds like you need to get some better advice about running your own finances before you start telling people how to run a country.

[Space Mackerel]

How do you not pay NI? And are you not set up to offset your input VAT against output? And what about CT? Are you making best use of capital allowances or are you not paying CT because you don't make a profit?

 

Sounds like you need to get some better advice about running your own finances before you start telling people how to run a country.

All in hand thanks.

 

Just think, with one of the most right wing Tory governments in power, the older generation who the vast majority who voted No will die off, the EU citizens will voted no will definitely switch to a Yes and the younger ones growing up are majority Yes voters and are pro EU anyway.

 

Yer teas oot pal.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

 

The rag that?s lost the rag

 

by weegingerdug

 

 

 

 

Is it possible for a newspaper to go insane? There are only two possible explanations for the stories about Scottish independence that have been appearing in the Daily Express of late. Either the newspaper has gone insane and lost whatever tenuous grip on reality that it might once have possessed, or it has descended into a hate filled disregard for truth that makes the hysteria fuelled propaganda sheets of a fascist totalitarian regime seem like the dry and sober reporting of the minutes of the Auchterarder Allotments and Vegetable Growers' Society. Admittedly those possibilities are not mutually exclusive.

 

The Express was one of the most avid proponents of a Brexit, and ever since the EU referendum has been one of the most fervid deniers that there might be any negative consequences for the UK flowing from the result. Over recent weeks it has been publishing increasingly personalised attacks on Nicola Sturgeon for her wilful refusal to rule out a Scotland that meekly rolls over and accepts the Brexit result that we didn't vote for. The articles have been using the sort of language that even Owen Smith would recognise as a dangerous approach to a misogynistic call to violence against women.

 

Now the paper has ballooned into the stratosphere with its hot air. The rag has lost the rag. According to an article which verges perilously on defamation, Nicola Sturgeon is geeing up independence supporters for a campaign of violence against the Union. The sheer effrontery of the hateful rag is breath taking. This is not journalism. This is not reporting. This is a blatant and shameless attempt to stir up the more atavistic supporters of Unionism and create a self-fulfilling prophecy of violence, and the blame for any such violence will then be conveniently laid at the door of the independence movement.

 

There were indeed some instances of violence associated with the 2014 independence referendum. There was the shameful assault of an elderly independence supporter in Edinburgh, allegedly carried out by a Unionist woman who disagreed violently with his peaceful message. The old man ended up with a broken arm, his alleged assailant was never caught. Then there was the accusation of assault against pro-independence canvasser outside a polling station in Shettleston in the East End of Glasgow. Her alleged assailant was none other than the Labour MP Marie Rimmer. The court case is still on-going. And finally, and most disgracefully, there was the mass attack by Unionist supporting fascists against peaceful pro-independence demonstrators in George Square in the aftermath of the referendum result. The indy crowd was charged by dozens of extreme right wing Unionists who attacked men, women, old and young indiscriminately. The Express article was illustrated by a short video of this attack, labelled "Nationalists and Unionists in wild clash".

 

See a pattern here? A child could see a pattern here. A five year old could readily assign due blame. The Express can't. According to the Express the violence is all the fault of the independence movement and its supporters. It's like saying that homophobic attacks are the fault of gay people for being openly gay. It's like saying that misogynistic violence is the fault of women who were asking for it. It's like saying that racist beatings are the fault of ethnic minorities for being willfully foreign in a public space. This is not journalism. This is abuse of a public platform. This is abuse of an entire nation. This is a newspaper which recognises that it's destined to find a more socially useful role as lavatory paper and so helpfully it's already covered with shite and dripping with pish when it's purchased.

 

The fact is that the Scottish Police Federation issued a statement just before the independence referendum dismissing claims that the country was a hotbed of aggression and on the verge of violent outbreaks. Brian Docherty, chair of the Scottish Police Federation, condemned the No campaign for its irresponsible exaggerations. The Express never got the message. It's still exaggerating, still demonising the yes movement. And the moment that some violent fascist bully with a grudge takes out their insecurity on a harmless independence supporter, the Express will be the first to condemn the yes movement for creating division and violence.

 

There was another video illustrating the article too. Titled "Aggressive Scottish protesters intimidate ex-Labour ..." it showed the stramashette in St Enoch when Sean Clerkin and a couple of his pals ranted at Jim Murphy. That was the occasion when Jim Murphy deliberately walked into a placard being waved by Sean and then claimed he was being abused. The entire event was a set up by Labour. Clerkin's merry little band later claimed that they'd been tipped off by someone in Murphy's local party. It was blatantly obvious that Murphy wanted to create the impression that Scottish independence supporters were violent and extreme, and so someone in the Labour party got in touch with a notorious fringe group, the Scottish Resistance. A group that's so fringe and so uninfluential in the independence movement that there are actually more photographs of prominent Unionists ironically wearing Scottish Resistance T-shirts than there are members of the Scottish Resistance.

 

The difference of course is that whereas the violent Unionist right wing extremists who attacked the peaceful independence supporters in George Square are never to be associated with the mainstream of Unionism, the entire independence movement is tarred with the brush of Scottish Resistance in reports in the Unionist press.

 

We still don't know when there's to be another independence referendum, and already that end of the Unionist press which is deeper in sewage is spewing its cacophony of cack. Because they know what we know too. They know that the next time Scotland goes into an independence referendum the yes campaign will be able to count on the support of half the population. They know that the political case for the Union has been destroyed by the actions of the Unionists themselves. They know that the Union is in its final days, and that they're responsible for ending it.

 

What we're hearing now is the high pitching howl of a fatally wounded animal. The howls are only going to grow in intensity, because Scotland is heading for independence. And there's nothing the Express can do to stop it.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Meanwhile:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Arnold Rothstein]

Why can't we use the vladstupid smiley any more?

[HaymarketJambo]

The rag that?s lost the rag

 

by weegingerdug

 

 

 

 

Is it possible for a newspaper to go insane? There are only two possible explanations for the stories about Scottish independence that have been appearing in the Daily Express of late. Either the newspaper has gone insane and lost whatever tenuous grip on reality that it might once have possessed, or it has descended into a hate filled disregard for truth that makes the hysteria fuelled propaganda sheets of a fascist totalitarian regime seem like the dry and sober reporting of the minutes of the Auchterarder Allotments and Vegetable Growers' Society. Admittedly those possibilities are not mutually exclusive.

 

The Express was one of the most avid proponents of a Brexit, and ever since the EU referendum has been one of the most fervid deniers that there might be any negative consequences for the UK flowing from the result. Over recent weeks it has been publishing increasingly personalised attacks on Nicola Sturgeon for her wilful refusal to rule out a Scotland that meekly rolls over and accepts the Brexit result that we didn't vote for. The articles have been using the sort of language that even Owen Smith would recognise as a dangerous approach to a misogynistic call to violence against women.

 

Now the paper has ballooned into the stratosphere with its hot air. The rag has lost the rag. According to an article which verges perilously on defamation, Nicola Sturgeon is geeing up independence supporters for a campaign of violence against the Union. The sheer effrontery of the hateful rag is breath taking. This is not journalism. This is not reporting. This is a blatant and shameless attempt to stir up the more atavistic supporters of Unionism and create a self-fulfilling prophecy of violence, and the blame for any such violence will then be conveniently laid at the door of the independence movement.

 

There were indeed some instances of violence associated with the 2014 independence referendum. There was the shameful assault of an elderly independence supporter in Edinburgh, allegedly carried out by a Unionist woman who disagreed violently with his peaceful message. The old man ended up with a broken arm, his alleged assailant was never caught. Then there was the accusation of assault against pro-independence canvasser outside a polling station in Shettleston in the East End of Glasgow. Her alleged assailant was none other than the Labour MP Marie Rimmer. The court case is still on-going. And finally, and most disgracefully, there was the mass attack by Unionist supporting fascists against peaceful pro-independence demonstrators in George Square in the aftermath of the referendum result. The indy crowd was charged by dozens of extreme right wing Unionists who attacked men, women, old and young indiscriminately. The Express article was illustrated by a short video of this attack, labelled "Nationalists and Unionists in wild clash".

 

See a pattern here? A child could see a pattern here. A five year old could readily assign due blame. The Express can't. According to the Express the violence is all the fault of the independence movement and its supporters. It's like saying that homophobic attacks are the fault of gay people for being openly gay. It's like saying that misogynistic violence is the fault of women who were asking for it. It's like saying that racist beatings are the fault of ethnic minorities for being willfully foreign in a public space. This is not journalism. This is abuse of a public platform. This is abuse of an entire nation. This is a newspaper which recognises that it's destined to find a more socially useful role as lavatory paper and so helpfully it's already covered with shite and dripping with pish when it's purchased.

 

The fact is that the Scottish Police Federation issued a statement just before the independence referendum dismissing claims that the country was a hotbed of aggression and on the verge of violent outbreaks. Brian Docherty, chair of the Scottish Police Federation, condemned the No campaign for its irresponsible exaggerations. The Express never got the message. It's still exaggerating, still demonising the yes movement. And the moment that some violent fascist bully with a grudge takes out their insecurity on a harmless independence supporter, the Express will be the first to condemn the yes movement for creating division and violence.

 

There was another video illustrating the article too. Titled "Aggressive Scottish protesters intimidate ex-Labour ..." it showed the stramashette in St Enoch when Sean Clerkin and a couple of his pals ranted at Jim Murphy. That was the occasion when Jim Murphy deliberately walked into a placard being waved by Sean and then claimed he was being abused. The entire event was a set up by Labour. Clerkin's merry little band later claimed that they'd been tipped off by someone in Murphy's local party. It was blatantly obvious that Murphy wanted to create the impression that Scottish independence supporters were violent and extreme, and so someone in the Labour party got in touch with a notorious fringe group, the Scottish Resistance. A group that's so fringe and so uninfluential in the independence movement that there are actually more photographs of prominent Unionists ironically wearing Scottish Resistance T-shirts than there are members of the Scottish Resistance.

 

The difference of course is that whereas the violent Unionist right wing extremists who attacked the peaceful independence supporters in George Square are never to be associated with the mainstream of Unionism, the entire independence movement is tarred with the brush of Scottish Resistance in reports in the Unionist press.

 

We still don't know when there's to be another independence referendum, and already that end of the Unionist press which is deeper in sewage is spewing its cacophony of cack. Because they know what we know too. They know that the next time Scotland goes into an independence referendum the yes campaign will be able to count on the support of half the population. They know that the political case for the Union has been destroyed by the actions of the Unionists themselves. They know that the Union is in its final days, and that they're responsible for ending it.

 

What we're hearing now is the high pitching howl of a fatally wounded animal. The howls are only going to grow in intensity, because Scotland is heading for independence. And there's nothing the Express can do to stop it.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I have read at today's Sunday Herald, Labour in meltdown.

[Space Mackerel]

I have read at today's Sunday Herald, Labour in meltdown.

Yup, all their big donators have paid zero to SLAB coffers for quite a while now. Dugdale getting ready for the bullet.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HaymarketJambo]

Yup, all their big donators have paid zero to SLAB coffers for quite a while now. Dugdale getting ready for the bullet.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Yep and Jim Murphy having secret chats with Tories.

[Space Mackerel]

Yep and Jim Murphy having secret chats with Tories.

Read that too. Trapper John Mc will be furious at his ex dear Leader with this news.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Why can't we use the vladstupid smiley any more?

Not MORE too wee too stupid patter. Got anything else? [emoji23]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jake]

Meanwhile:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Brexit camp abandons a pledge they cant keep because the brexit camp are not in government.

 

Still the fact remains our coffers will be 350 million pounds better off.

That is fact.

 

Another fact is that the scottish economy runs on a deficit and that if we go indy there will be massive questions to be answered on how we maintain services.

 

No amount of facebook memes and newspaper quotes will answer that.

Even a healthy oil industry wont.

 

Perhaps if we could discuss how an independent scotland will overcome this instead of the mess the snp made of the fiscal side of the argument in the referendum.

Then maybe we will be independent.

You waiting on people to die will make no difference.

Because makerel mostly when people age they worry not only about themselvrs but what they leave behind.

 

I await your childish response

[Space Mackerel]

Brexit camp abandons a pledge they cant keep because the brexit camp are not in government.

 

Still the fact remains our coffers will be 350 million pounds better off.

That is fact.

 

Another fact is that the scottish economy runs on a deficit and that if we go indy there will be massive questions to be answered on how we maintain services.

 

No amount of facebook memes and newspaper quotes will answer that.

Even a healthy oil industry wont.

 

Perhaps if we could discuss how an independent scotland will overcome this instead of the mess the snp made of the fiscal side of the argument in the referendum.

Then maybe we will be independent.

You waiting on people to die will make no difference.

Because makerel mostly when people age they worry not only about themselvrs but what they leave behind.

 

I await your childish response

?350m better off?

 

I take it you've factored in the newly created state department and legal fees?

 

And the drop in tax take when the inevitable recession kicks in.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aussieh]

Deary Deary me, you're a feckin Roaster

lighten up lady, ffs.

[Thunderstruck]

Not MORE too wee too stupid patter. Got anything else? [emoji23]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"Too wee, too stupid" - I know she isn't everyone's cup of tea but do you really have to keep referring to Ms Sturgeon is such terms.

[Space Mackerel]

"Too wee, too stupid" - I know she isn't everyone's cup of tea but do you really have to keep referring to Ms Sturgeon is such terms.

*sigh [emoji85]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jake]

?350m better off?

 

I take it you've factored in the newly created state department and legal fees?

 

And the drop in tax take when the inevitable recession kicks in.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Recession is always inevitable.

Fact.

 

350 million net savings.

What any government chooses to do with that is for us the voters to scrutinise.

And then judge through the ballot box.

 

Not a perfect system but thats what we have.

Also id point out you use much the same arguments as the no campaign used against independence.

The costs involved setting up our infrastructure for collecting taxes new state departments etc.

I find it astounding to read and hear the double standards.

[Space Mackerel]

Recession is always inevitable.

Fact.

 

350 million net savings.

What any government chooses to do with that is for us the voters to scrutinise.

And then judge through the ballot box.

 

Not a perfect system but thats what we have.

Also id point out you use much the same arguments as the no campaign used against independence.

The costs involved setting up our infrastructure for collecting taxes new state departments etc.

I find it astounding to read and hear the double standards.

So why the rest of the world are bumping along with minimal growth in their economies, the solution is to cut all trading ties and put our own economy into a self inflicted recession?

 

Terrific.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Recession is always inevitable.

Fact.

 

350 million net savings.

What any government chooses to do with that is for us the voters to scrutinise.

And then judge through the ballot box.

 

Not a perfect system but thats what we have.

Also id point out you use much the same arguments as the no campaign used against independence.

The costs involved setting up our infrastructure for collecting taxes new state departments etc.

I find it astounding to read and hear the double standards.

Here you go jakey. Inwardly digest please.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aussieh]

Recession is always inevitable.

Fact.

 

350 million net savings.

What any government chooses to do with that is for us the voters to scrutinise.

And then judge through the ballot box.

 

Not a perfect system but thats what we have.

Also id point out you use much the same arguments as the no campaign used against independence.

The costs involved setting up our infrastructure for collecting taxes new state departments etc.

I find it astounding to read and hear the double standards.

Right, if the Nats are that bad why are they on a third term?

Voting SNP and no has to be the biggest double standard in Scottish history. But wait you'll say Yes and Remain is, by trying to hold the EU up the same as the UK. Its not.

 

Wee example, we'd be in charge of who gets to fish our waters, instead of Wm giving it away for London.

 

Oh on the fishing thing, remember Spain's veto, neither do I. Ask GW about Spain and their love of our fish.

[jake]

Here you go jakey. Inwardly digest please.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Makeral

The guardian prints daily some convoluted story about brexit to suit their agenda.

 

Daily.

 

Will post a neutral link with three opinions about post brexit.

Not all good not all bad.

 

Why would europe appease brexit Britain.

It wouldnt.

 

But European businesses will not let politicians affect their markets.

So no appeasement just practicality.

 

All my own opinion.

[jake]

Right, if the Nats are that bad why are they on a third term?

Voting SNP and no has to be the biggest double standard in Scottish history. But wait you'll say Yes and Remain is, by trying to hold the EU up the same as the UK. Its not.

 

Wee example, we'd be in charge of who gets to fish our waters, instead of Wm giving it away for London.

 

Oh on the fishing thing, remember Spain's veto, neither do I. Ask GW about Spain and their love of our fish.

 

I wouldn't give the snp the shit of my shoes.

I voted yes and brexit.

Think ive said why.

 

As for no voters voting snp do the stats support that.

Perhaps thars because the labour party are indistinguishable from the tories.

 

As for fishing.

Thats a whole different topic and goes beyond who controls the industry.

Environmentally fish are feked.

[aussieh]

I wouldn't give the snp the shit of my shoes.

I voted yes and brexit.

Think ive said why.

 

As for no voters voting snp do the stats support that.

Perhaps thars because the labour party are indistinguishable from the tories.

 

As for fishing.

Thats a whole different topic and goes beyond who controls the industry.

Environmentally fish are feked.

Its only an Indy issue for me, Jake. Then its every party for themselves come the GE. Simple. If I don't I won't get an indy2, I hope you understand why I vote SNP now?

[jake]

Here you go jakey. Inwardly digest please.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Three Views on Brexit?s Consequences - WSJ

http://www.wsj.com/articles/three-views-on-brexits-consequences-1473127382

 

 

Some views on the financial implications of brexit.

Varied i think.

[jake]

Its only an Indy issue for me, Jake. Then its every party for themselves come the GE. Simple. If I don't I won't get an indy2, I hope you understand why I vote SNP now?

 

Always did

[Arnold Rothstein]

Not MORE too wee too stupid patter. Got anything else? [emoji23]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I have no doubt Scotland could go it alone. I just don't want it to.   

[Space Mackerel]

Three Views on Brexit?s Consequences - WSJ

http://www.wsj.com/articles/three-views-on-brexits-consequences-1473127382

 

 

Some views on the financial implications of brexit.

Varied i think.

There is absolutely nothing in that article that's positive apart from a tiny snippet in the 2nd opinion.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

I have no doubt Scotland could go it alone. I just don't want it to.

Ah, so it's all about your personal identity that's at threat here and not the economic and political arguments.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Arnold Rothstein]

Ah, so it's all about your personal identity that's at threat here and not the economic and political arguments.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

To a degree yes. There are many like me too. So to say we're scared of independence or have no faith in Scottish people to make it work (too wee, too stupid as you put it) is nonsense for many. 

[SwindonJambo]

I have no doubt Scotland could go it alone. I just don't want it to.

 

That's where I am. If it happened I'd by sad but hope for the best and wish those in charge the best. The 1st 5 years after independence would be crucial, with many very tough decisions required on tax increases and spending cuts. The Scottish Government have had tax raising powers for 17 years and never used them! The currency issue needs to be clarified pronto. I would not be in favour of sharing the pound as monetary policy would be controlled by what would be a foreign country which would set policy to suit its own needs. That isn't proper independence at all. The Euro? No thanks! Scotland would have ro set up its own currency and let it float and find its feet, which it would eventually do. Only that way would it have complete control over its own monetary policy. It would initially be very expensive to borrow money with a brand new unrecognised currency with no credit rating before it became known and, hopefully, trusted.

 

The honeymoon period would be over very quickly in the event of independence as tough realities set in. The trouble with an issue like this is that it's so inflammatory and divisive with nastiness on both sides and bitterness from the losing side. For independence to be a success it needs the overwhelming support of a clear majority and then the remaining No side would soon get on board. To do that the SNP have to make Scotland significantly better off than the rest of the UK within the powers they have and then they will win people over.

[Hasselhoff]

That's where I am. If it happened I'd by sad but hope for the best and wish those in charge the best. The 1st 5 years after independence would be crucial, with many very tough decisions required on tax increases and spending cuts. The Scottish Government have had tax raising powers for 17 years and never used them! The currency issue needs to be clarified pronto. I would not be in favour of sharing the pound as monetary policy would be controlled by what would be a foreign country which would set policy to suit its own needs. That isn't proper independence at all. The Euro? No thanks! Scotland would have ro set up its own currency and let it float and find its feet, which it would eventually do. Only that way would it have complete control over its own monetary policy. It would initially be very expensive to borrow money with a brand new unrecognised currency with no credit rating before it became known and, hopefully, trusted.

 

The honeymoon period would be over very quickly in the event of independence as tough realities set in. The trouble with an issue like this is that it's so inflammatory and divisive with nastiness on both sides and bitterness from the losing side. For independence to be a success it needs the overwhelming support of a clear majority and then the remaining No side would soon get on board. To do that the SNP have to make Scotland significantly better off than the rest of the UK within the powers they have and then they will win people over.

Spot on - I think the worst thing that could happen to Scotland is scraping a yes vote by a tiny amount with almost 50% of the country losing the vote, which was meant to a once in a generation vote.

 

I think that when people want replays of votes, the rules should change. Instead of just needing 50.0001% to win, the side that is asking for the re-vote should need to get 70% of the vote. Only that way do you avoid the second vote being undemocratic and dismissive of the original vote.

[Space Mackerel]

To a degree yes. There are many like me too. So to say we're scared of independence or have no faith in Scottish people to make it work (too wee, too stupid as you put it) is nonsense for many.

You you'd rather keep your British identity and the neo liberal policies that go with them and that are causing so much suffering and nonsense in this world, rather take a step back, see the bigger picture and move to a more forward social democratic system of government that the majority of Scotland have always desired?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SwindonJambo]

Spot on - I think the worst thing that could happen to Scotland is scraping a yes vote by a tiny amount with almost 50% of the country losing the vote, which was meant to a once in a generation vote.

I think that when people want replays of votes, the rules should change. Instead of just needing 50.0001% to win, the side that is asking for the re-vote should need to get 70% of the vote. Only that way do you avoid the second vote being undemocratic and dismissive of the original vote.

Exactly that. The Brexit vote won by a small margin, leaving a great deal of real bitterness among the Remain side in England. Many are in denial with protests all over the place by Remainers.

[Arnold Rothstein]

You you'd rather keep your British identity and the neo liberal policies that go with them and that are causing so much suffering and nonsense in this world, rather take a step back, see the bigger picture and move to a more forward social democratic system of government that the majority of Scotland have always desired?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

See, you don't get it. 

[Space Mackerel]

See, you don't get it.

You're right, I don't. I have utterly no idea why anyone would support the Tories and the Union after everything that's gone on over the years plus the drivel and lies that's printed backing them up in the MSM.

 

It a bit like having a soft spot for h1b5.

[Space Mackerel]

Aw naw! [emoji23]

 

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/9783/hurricane-energy-discovery-could-revitalise-the-north-sea/

[JamboX2]

You you'd rather keep your British identity and the neo liberal policies that go with them and that are causing so much suffering and nonsense in this world, rather take a step back, see the bigger picture and move to a more forward social democratic system of government that the majority of Scotland have always desired?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Scotland hasnt always desired centre-left government. Dont be too quick to assume a left wing utopia with independence.

 

Read some of the stuff the Ewings, Andrew Wilson and George Kerevan have said would need to happen if independence won. Kerevan has said there's a massive chance that huge chunks of the public sector would be moneterised (privatised) along with massive spending cuts for 5 years to a decade to create a sustainable independent Scotland with its own currency.

 

In effect, they seem to see this as a great chance to create a wee free market state north of the UK. Another Ireland - small public sector withlow corporate taxation.

 

Now, as with the current policies of government at a UK level all this is subject to change. But should such policies be implemented it'll be interesting to see how much anger and mistrust would be directed at government in Scotland. Afterall, the predominant view of post-yes is a united, socially just state with major public sector involvement in all aspects of life.

 

I think independence is the back door to a more Tory Scotland. Not a left wing one.

[Space Mackerel]

Scotland hasnt always desired centre-left government. Dont be too quick to assume a left wing utopia with independence.

 

Read some of the stuff the Ewings, Andrew Wilson and George Kerevan have said would need to happen if independence won. Kerevan has said there's a massive chance that huge chunks of the public sector would be moneterised (privatised) along with massive spending cuts for 5 years to a decade to create a sustainable independent Scotland with its own currency.

 

In effect, they seem to see this as a great chance to create a wee free market state north of the UK. Another Ireland - small public sector withlow corporate taxation.

 

Now, as with the current policies of government at a UK level all this is subject to change. But should such policies be implemented it'll be interesting to see how much anger and mistrust would be directed at government in Scotland. Afterall, the predominant view of post-yes is a united, socially just state with major public sector involvement in all aspects of life.

 

I think independence is the back door to a more Tory Scotland. Not a left wing one.

And you've just hit the nail on the head why so many people now are fed up of the Union.

 

A chance to manufacture policies, based on the needs of the people up here rather than the SE of England.

 

Let's hope this penny drops with some others.

[deesidejambo]

Aw naw! [emoji23]

 

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/9783/hurricane-energy-discovery-could-revitalise-the-north-sea/

Complete rubbish.  The North Sea is on terminal decline and a few remaining discoveries will be nowhere near enough to replace the lost production from the many fields being abandoned.

[HaymarketJambo]

That's where I am. If it happened I'd by sad but hope for the best and wish those in charge the best. The 1st 5 years after independence would be crucial, with many very tough decisions required on tax increases and spending cuts. The Scottish Government have had tax raising powers for 17 years and never used them! The currency issue needs to be clarified pronto. I would not be in favour of sharing the pound as monetary policy would be controlled by what would be a foreign country which would set policy to suit its own needs. That isn't proper independence at all. The Euro? No thanks! Scotland would have ro set up its own currency and let it float and find its feet, which it would eventually do. Only that way would it have complete control over its own monetary policy. It would initially be very expensive to borrow money with a brand new unrecognised currency with no credit rating before it became known and, hopefully, trusted.

 

The honeymoon period would be over very quickly in the event of independence as tough realities set in. The trouble with an issue like this is that it's so inflammatory and divisive with nastiness on both sides and bitterness from the losing side. For independence to be a success it needs the overwhelming support of a clear majority and then the remaining No side would soon get on board. To do that the SNP have to make Scotland significantly better off than the rest of the UK within the powers they have and then they will win people over.

 

We keep hearing from the anti SNP Brigade that the honeymoon period is over for the SNP, but they keep wining elections why?

 

I have you seen the mess of the Scottish Labour Party right now, in fact the Labour Party in the UK are in total shambles, happy day's if you are a SNP supporter or Conservative supporter south of the border.       

[Space Mackerel]

Complete rubbish. The North Sea is on terminal decline and a few remaining discoveries will be nowhere near enough to replace the lost production from the many fields being abandoned.

I know, we have shite oil here.

[JamboX2]

And you've just hit the nail on the head why so many people now are fed up of the Union.

 

A chance to manufacture policies, based on the needs of the people up here rather than the SE of England.

 

Let's hope this penny drops with some others.

But you have that ability within devolution. Equally, Scotland can play a vital role to influence the role and direction of the UK more effectively from within than without.

 

The independence debate can be viewed throughthe EU debate as much as the EU one can with Scotland.

 

To me, there are so many shared and common interests between the UK nations that independence is redundant. I really do not think independence is wise when you look at the fine print of the last white paper (any thing to follow will be very similar). Why create a political and national barrier to economic, cultural and social structures which work extremely well between these 4 nations. What good is it to share the ? as the EU share the ? with what would over time become divergent economic views? Why share regulators who'd serve different consumers and split up defence forces into smaller units? Why share a common market in energy etc if you have no political integration at some level?

 

Independence sounds great. But I just can't see a detailed or justifiable reason beyond "cause we're Scottish".

[SwindonJambo]

Aw naw! [emoji23]http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/9783/hurricane-energy-discovery-could-revitalise-the-north-sea/

The article says 'COULD' . WIth huge Shale Oil & Gas reserves in the US, I'm afraid there's a natural brake on the oil price of around $50. Offshore oil drilling is one of the most expensive ways too get it and is only profitable and worthwhile above a lot more than that. Oil as a cash cow Is gone.

 

The last independence campaign ASSUMED a price of $113 a barrel or more. So how so you make up the huge hole in the public finances that would leave? It would be more honest to campaign, explaining that was he country would initially be a lot poorer, before recovering a bit later.

[deesidejambo]

I know, we have shite oil here.

For those genuinely interested in the oil projections, here they are.

 

Oil is in terminal decline and production is nowhere near previous levels.

 

The number of fields that have applied for abandonment is increasing week-on-week.

 

There are a few residual WOS fields being developed at extremely high cost to the Operators that will, when on production,raise hardly any income to the exchequer due to the favourable tax terms given to allow development.

 

Oil revenues are finished.

[JamboX2]

We keep hearing from the anti SNP Brigade that the honeymoon period is over for the SNP, but they keep wining elections why?

 

I have you seen the mess of the Scottish Labour Party right now, in fact the Labour Party in the UK are in total shambles, happy day's if you are a SNP supporter or Conservative supporter south of the border.

Such things are temporary. Politics is like fashion and is cyclical. In 5 years time Scottish Labour could be in power and the SNP in third. Who knows?

 

The SNP will be as popular as they are so long as they are almost exempted from hard choices. But those choices are coming and soon the fact they've been in power for 10 plus years will hit home. Happened with the Labour party in the UK and Tories before them. Evidence suggests Labour in Wales are facing a similar predicament.

[Captain Sausage]

I know, we have shite oil here.

 

You've not got a clue mate.

 

Do you genuinely think oil is back on the rise in the North Sea? Look at the infrastructure we have. West of Shetland is dying on it's arse. The east of Shetland basin has a bit to go, but post 2025 (2030 if you're optimistic), we're into extremely difficult extractions.

[SwindonJambo]

We keep hearing from the anti SNP Brigade that the honeymoon period is over for the SNP, but they keep wining elections why?

 

I have you seen the mess of the Scottish Labour Party right now, in fact the Labour Party in the UK are in total shambles, happy day's if you are a SNP supporter or Conservative supporter south of the border.

 

I said WOULD BE in the event of full independence and the very tough 1st few years afterwards which would be tough for them or anyone else in a fledgling independent state. They are clearly still very popular and win votes from opponents of independence because they're happy with their performance as a devolved administration. I agree that Labour are currently in a huge mess. I've never voted Conservative in my life.

[Hasselhoff]

You're right, I don't. I have utterly no idea why anyone would support the Tories and the Union after everything that's gone on over the years plus the drivel and lies that's printed backing them up in the MSM.

 

It a bit like having a soft spot for h1b5.

You posted a meme a few days ago about Scotland's deficit only being ?2bn that was completely bollocks and made up. You can't have a go at MSM for circulating lies and then do the exact same yourself. Do you just share any old thing if it is pro-Indy no matter whether it is true or not?

[HaymarketJambo]

I said WOULD BE in the event of full independence and the very tough 1st few years afterwards which would be tough for them or anyone else in a fledgling independent state. They are clearly still very popular and win votes from opponents of independence because they're happy with their performance as a devolved administration. I agree that Labour are currently in a huge mess. I've never voted Conservative in my life.

 

You see the SNP might not be in government say after full Independence because we would have to hold new elections so I could for example then choose to vote very unlikely Labour- Conservative- Libdem - Green or new party that was the SNP?

 

Brexit will be tough as well.

 

I know Swindon really well so I hope Brexit doesn't have too much a impact on the town some big companies like Honda and Zurich Insurance in Swindon and it's a place I like.    

[Space Mackerel]

I said WOULD BE in the event of full independence and the very tough 1st few years afterwards which would be tough for them or anyone else in a fledgling independent state. They are clearly still very popular and win votes from opponents of independence because they're happy with their performance as a devolved administration. I agree that Labour are currently in a huge mess. I've never voted Conservative in my life.

Who says that everyone who voted for independence is going to vote for the SNP after?

 

Considering the party is made up of left and right leaning members already.

[Space Mackerel]

But you have that ability within devolution. Equally, Scotland can play a vital role to influence the role and direction of the UK more effectively from within than without.

 

The independence debate can be viewed throughthe EU debate as much as the EU one can with Scotland.

 

To me, there are so many shared and common interests between the UK nations that independence is redundant. I really do not think independence is wise when you look at the fine print of the last white paper (any thing to follow will be very similar). Why create a political and national barrier to economic, cultural and social structures which work extremely well between these 4 nations. What good is it to share the ? as the EU share the ? with what would over time become divergent economic views? Why share regulators who'd serve different consumers and split up defence forces into smaller units? Why share a common market in energy etc if you have no political integration at some level?

 

Independence sounds great. But I just can't see a detailed or justifiable reason beyond "cause we're Scottish".

Decent post but I'm off the persuasion that the smaller the state then the easier it is to manage for the government.

 

Especially when Scotland has a wealth of natural resources, talent and a highly educated workforce now.