Jump to content

Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum


Gorgiewave

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I think this is the best news I have heard in a long time sturgeon is not stupid she will non call a referendum to lose. I am all for independence if it makes scots better off but the 15 billion blackhole and all doesn't appeal to voters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good.

 

Now lets see where brexit leaves us.

Shit creek I predict...

 

That said, it's right to can independence for now and focus on making sure we get the best Brexit agreement possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jambof3tornado

Shit creek I predict...

 

That said, it's right to can independence for now and focus on making sure we get the best Brexit agreement possible.

I think other countries will follow us out the EU.

 

I voted to stay in but am not afraid of going alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maroon Sailor

Trust her as far as I could throw her. It'll not be long before she is having another tantrum like a bairn in a sweetie shop being told they are not getting a Freddo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My half sister

I'd happily have another referendum

We all know what the result would be.

All quiet on the oil funD

Team GB is the future

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Space Mackerel

Best Scottish news in a long time.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/nicola-sturgeon-shelves-quick-second-scottish-independence-referendum-bill

 

Some people will now have to get on with their real work.

 

The real work being not sitting on an Internet forum all day but losing my business access to the EU market.

 

You've not a clue, not a single clue how things work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The real work being not sitting on an Internet forum all day but losing my business access to the EU market.

 

You've not a clue, not a single clue how things work.

Exactly that would have been, and would be, the consequence of Scottish independence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Space Mackerel

Exactly that would have been, and would be, the consequence of Scottish independence.

And how would you know that?

 

Do I need to go to someone in another country and ask them to hold my hand likes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd happily have another referendum

We all know what the result would be.

All quiet on the oil funD

Team GB is the future

Thank feck Moses didnae have this problem, it would've been a really Shite/Short film.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ricardo Shillyshally

Noticeable that this follows her stopping going on about keeping Scotland in Europe. I must have missed her big announcement that after gallivanting across Europe it was all actually a complete waste of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The expected bounce for Independence she expected post the Brexit vote has never materialised, if anything, it has dropped a little (YouGov Poll in the Times last week). She knows she has no chance of winning another referendum and her political career would be over if she lost.

 

IMO, although Scotland may have voted to remain in the EU, I don't think the majority of Scots care that much that we are now leaving now that the dust has settled and for No voters, vote leave is certainly not a reason to switch to Yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The expected bounce foir Independence she expected post the Brexit vote has never materialised, if anything, it has dropped a little (YouGov Poll in the Times last week). She knows she has no chance of winning another referendum and her political career would be over if she lost.

 

IMO, although Scotland may have voted to remain in the EU, I don't think the majority of Scots care that much that we are now leaving now that the dust has settled and for No voters, vote leave is certainly not a reason to switch to Yes.

I'd pretty much agree with that analysis, although I do think that the Brexit dust is yet to settle. When it does it may just give support for independence a boost. IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just need to bide our time for Independence. I can wait. Though ill probably be dead by the time it eventually happens. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The expected bounce for Independence she expected post the Brexit vote has never materialised, if anything, it has dropped a little (YouGov Poll in the Times last week). She knows she has no chance of winning another referendum and her political career would be over if she lost.

 

IMO, although Scotland may have voted to remain in the EU, I don't think the majority of Scots care that much that we are now leaving now that the dust has settled and for No voters, vote leave is certainly not a reason to switch to Yes.

 

spot on.

 

Brexit is causing problems across the eu, not just in obvious ways such as trade and free movement etc and what deal will be struck when we leave. But other countries are realising that the eu as it is currently and proposed to be in the future, isn't a good model for their own countries best interests.  There are elections in germany and france next year, a lot of agitation amongst the electorates re immigration and the economy, holland has an election coming up and one of the candidates is proposing an in/out referendum if he wins power. Denmark is not happy about the eu, italy has issues as well, greece has issues with the eu.

 

I've no problem with us having a trading relationship with europe, as the EEC was(which is what we joined) but the gradual widening of europes control over individual countries and the creation of what is effectively a european super state controlled by unelected bureaucrats in the eu is a step to far and completely unnecessary and that is what is causing the tensions, it's not just britain who are unhappy with the current state of the eu, we just happen to be the country who have jumped first.

 

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Regarding obama's comments re a trade deal with us, he's a dead duck president and will be gone in 2 months time so he can slaver pish all he wants, it's meaningless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let us see what the Brexit deal is, then we will know if independence is on or not.  Right now nothing has changed we are still carrying on as normal within the EU.

 

Exactly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so the SNP are being criticised for putting Independence on the back burner and, at the same time, being criticised for concentrating on Independence rather than their 'day job'. Sounds fair :)

Meanwhile, in the real World, the SNP continues to govern Scotland and has a huge lead in the polls. |Glad to see that the opinions of the JKB vocal minority are not reflected in real life  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kingantti1874

I am absolutely shocked given Scotland is running the biggest defecit in Europe meaning independnece would result it catastrophic austerity and huge tax hikes..

 

I actually hoped we go ahead with it so that this nonsense could be put to bed permanently..

 

Can we get back to voting for real parties now..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am absolutely shocked given Scotland is running the biggest defecit in Europe meaning independnece would result it catastrophic austerity and huge tax hikes..

 

I actually hoped we go ahead with it so that this nonsense could be put to bed permanently..

 

Can we get back to voting for real parties now..

Scotland isn't running a deficit. The books are balanced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am absolutely shocked given Scotland is running the biggest defecit in Europe meaning independnece would result it catastrophic austerity and huge tax hikes..

 

I actually hoped we go ahead with it so that this nonsense could be put to bed permanently..

 

Can we get back to voting for real parties now..

have you heard of a thing called democracy?? It's where we have a thing called an election and, in that election, you get to vote for whatever party you want. Just because you and your fellow SNP haters don't like the fact that a lot more people vote for the SNP than any other party doesn't mean democracy is dead

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am absolutely shocked given Scotland is running the biggest defecit in Europe meaning independnece would result it catastrophic austerity and huge tax hikes..

 

I actually hoped we go ahead with it so that this nonsense could be put to bed permanently..

 

Can we get back to voting for real parties now..

The next indyref will be on the same terms as the EUref.

If you're not Scottish you're no getting a vote.

Goose and gander.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scotland isn't running a deficit. The books are balanced.

 

Are you hallucinating or just lying?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The next indyref will be on the same terms as the EUref.

If you're not Scottish you're no getting a vote.

Goose and gander.

 

And what if you are Scottish but not in Scotland?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scotland isn't running a deficit. The books are balanced.

 

We put in ?X to the UK, we get given that amount + ?15bn

 

When we get our X + ?15bn, we spend the whole lot (give or take a few hundred million) so our books are only balanced in that respect. 

 

If we were independent, we would need to make up that ?15bn somehow to continue our current standard of living. Fair enough, most countries have a deficit so we could maybe just make up ?13bn. 

 

Still waiting for suggestions on what Scotland would do differently to make up for that lost money

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The expected bounce for Independence she expected post the Brexit vote has never materialised, if anything, it has dropped a little (YouGov Poll in the Times last week). She knows she has no chance of winning another referendum and her political career would be over if she lost.

 

IMO, although Scotland may have voted to remain in the EU, I don't think the majority of Scots care that much that we are now leaving now that the dust has settled and for No voters, vote leave is certainly not a reason to switch to Yes.

Any polls on how Scots would vote in indyref2, not residents of Scotland.

Its our country after all.

 

 

EU citizens are more than welcome.

Whens brexit again?????????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd pretty much agree with that analysis, although I do think that the Brexit dust is yet to settle. When it does it may just give support for independence a boost. IMO.

Agree with that. I think once this post-brexit 'boom' dies off and the reality of leaving bites there will be an increase in support for independence.

 

I don't think it would be smart to pin our flag to the mast until as you correctly say, the dust fully settles...which may not be for a good few years yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dusk_Till_Dawn

This will run to about 20 pages.

 

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scotland isn't running a deficit. The books are balanced.

 

Incorrect. It's currently 9.5%/?15 billion, worse than Greece!

 

UK Total figures are 4%/ ?70bn approx.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That depends on who's figures you believe. Also Scotland doesn't have a deficit as it is part of the UK.

 

Which figures do you believe? How come GERS was OK to base the White Paper on but now it's not looking very good for Scotland they aren't to be trusted? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Incorrect. It's currently 9.5%/?15 billion, worse than Greece!

 

UK Total figures are 4%/ ?70bn approx.

Based on the limitations imposed on us and therefore restricting our true potential.

Time to cut the restriction on our economy that is top heavy reliant on trade with rUKs 55m and open up fully to theEUs 500m customers.

 

 

 

Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We could do what the UK do and borrow it until the Economy improves.

 

Also the ?15bn is not the figure of an Independent Scotland's deficit.

 

And finally there is more to Independence, indeed life, than the economy.

 

"It's the economy, stupid"

 

Very little is more important than the economy - if we don't have money, we don't pay for all the services that we take for granted. 

 

?15bn is the starting point for an independent Scotland - what would you change to reduce this deficit? 

 

Even at 0.2% growth which is hard to achieve as it is, it would take 60-odd years to break even (assuming our costs don't go up during that time which will they will)

 

Is it really worth subjecting our generation, our kids and our grandchildren's to hardship just so we can wave a few saltires? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the limitations imposed on us and therefore restricting our true potential.

Time to cut the restriction on our economy that is top heavy reliant on trade with rUKs 55m and open up fully to theEUs 500m customers.

 

 

 

Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

 

 

Finland is in the EU - a country which used to rely heavily on one company, Nokia, in the way we relied  on oil. 

 

Their economy is shrinking and they are in big trouble. Lot easier said than done growing your way out of a situation

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11993040/Finland-emerges-as-the-new-sick-man-of-Europe-as-euros-worst-performing-economy.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the limitations imposed on us and therefore restricting our true potential.

Time to cut the restriction on our economy that is top heavy reliant on trade with rUKs 55m and open up fully to theEUs 500m customers.

 

 

 

Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

 

We've already  had full access to the rest of the EEC/EU single market for 43 years. Why hasn't that Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy happened already ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've already  had full access to the rest of the EEC/EU single market for 43 years. Why hasn't that Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy happened already ?

 

It kind of has.

 

Not to mention all the funding on infrastructure courtesy of the EU which central govt would never have dreamt of funding...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maroon Sailor

 

And finally there is more to Independence, indeed life, than the economy.

Yeah we can have our own flag

Have our own capital city

Have our own bank notes

Have our own parliament

Have our own rail services

Have our own NHS

Have our own Police force

Have our own Ambulance and Fire / Rescue services

Have our own football team

Have our own football league (can always kick out Berwick)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And how would you know that?

 

Do I need to go to someone in another country and ask them to hold my hand likes?

 

According to your fantasy you need europe to hold your hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ToadKiller Dog

Still say the next referendum won't be until after 2020 .

Plenty time yet to repeat the same arguments .

 

I see one of project fears promises after independence has come true , Tesco making large job cuts in Scotland and ending 24 hour shopping in many stores .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Sausage

We could do what the UK do and borrow it until the Economy improves.

 

Also the ?15bn is not the figure of an Independent Scotland's deficit.

 

And finally there is more to Independence, indeed life, than the economy.

What a terrible argument. Properly moronic.

 

The blind who are voting for independence appear not to give a shit about the rest of us, who will have to cover a significant (whether that is ?9,10,15,20bn a year) deficit just to keep things where they are.

 

What planet do these people live on. Scotland has been a net contributor and a net receiver of UK finds at different times over the last few hundred years. At the moment, we are significantly funded by the rest of the U.K.

 

People arguing that the economy isn't the only thing to consider would be right, if the black hole wasn't so farcically large. ?15bn works out at ?4500pa (and that's on the assumption that everyone between 16-65 was contributing).

 

If me and my wife had to stump up ?10-15k a year in additional tax, we'd be headed down south tomorrow. I'm sure that applies to nearly everybody.

 

The fact that such a large proportion of our society would vote for this absolutely baffles me. It's not like 'things are bad now, might as well vote for change and see what happens' kind of scenario. It's blatantly obvious that independence would be catastrophic for Scotland in the current climate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nicola is in a pickle - she got the best possible Brexit result - the one she was hoping for as it triggered the "change in circumstance" that she was wanting, i.e. UK voting Leave but Scotland voting stay. 

 

Perfect for Nicola!  Great weegie-style rhetoric after the Brexit vote followed by desperate yet futile lobbying across Europe for Scotland to be allowed to remain in the EU

 

But wait - the polls have not changed materially so she is now bottling it.

 

Have an Indyref any time you want Nicola - the result will be the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kingantti1874

We could do what the UK do and borrow it until the Economy improves.

 

Also the ?15bn is not the figure of an Independent Scotland's deficit.

 

And finally there is more to Independence, indeed life, than the economy.

borrow it from who? Borrow it like the Greeks do.. the Greeks who have been forced to slash their health service by over 50%, pensions..

 

Smoking crack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Francis Albert

I thought from the beginning that the almost universal view that the Brexit vote would lead inevitably to the break up of the UK was way off the mark. Independence within an EU including the remainder of the UK is a very different thing from independence with the rest of the UK out of the EU and Scotland possibly in, possibly out.

 

The indy ref deferred Scottish independence by a generation at least.

 

The brexit ref deferred it for longer, possibly indefinitely.

 

The 2014 referendum was our Quebec moment. It was then or never IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Space Mackerel

What a terrible argument. Properly moronic.

 

The blind who are voting for independence appear not to give a shit about the rest of us, who will have to cover a significant (whether that is ?9,10,15,20bn a year) deficit just to keep things where they are.

 

What planet do these people live on. Scotland has been a net contributor and a net receiver of UK finds at different times over the last few hundred years. At the moment, we are significantly funded by the rest of the U.K.

 

People arguing that the economy isn't the only thing to consider would be right, if the black hole wasn't so farcically large. ?15bn works out at ?4500pa (and that's on the assumption that everyone between 16-65 was contributing).

 

If me and my wife had to stump up ?10-15k a year in additional tax, we'd be headed down south tomorrow. I'm sure that applies to nearly everybody.

 

The fact that such a large proportion of our society would vote for this absolutely baffles me. It's not like 'things are bad now, might as well vote for change and see what happens' kind of scenario. It's blatantly obvious that independence would be catastrophic for Scotland in the current climate.

In other words...

 

"I read the Scotsman and watch the BBC news, so there!"

 

[emoji23]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Space Mackerel

 

 

The Schrodinger?s cat of nations

 

by weegingerdug

 

Yesterday the Scottish Government revealed its plans for the new session of parliament and announced a consultation on a draft referendum bill. The consultation on the bill is to be launched before July next year, meaning that it could potentially be put before Holyrood late in 2017 or early in 2018. By that time, the UK government should have activated Article 50 and Brexit negotiations will be underway. Everyone who's not a Lib Dem or Kezia Dugdale knows by now that the only way that Scotland can preserve its EU membership is by seeking independence. The Unionist parties responded by angrily accusing the SNP of being obsessed with independence. Which to be fair, isn't exactly untrue. Seeking independence is ever so slightly the entire point of the SNP, it's their raison d'etre.

 

It's hardly the fault of the SNP that the Unionist parties lied through their collective teeth in 2014 about the kind of United Kingdom Scotland was voting to remain a part of. The UK they promised us in the summer of 2014 doesn't exist, if it ever existed. You can argue that if a political party doesn't follow through on a manifesto commitment, then in five years time there will be another election and the voters have the opportunity to punish that party for its failure. The Unionist parties don't want to fulfil the promises they made during the referendum campaign, and don't want the Scottish people to have any recourse to punish them for their failure. Taking Scotland out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people is just the final straw. The Unionist parties have only got themselves to blame that another independence referendum is on the table again. If they'd been as obsessed with being honest and trustworthy as they are obsessed with accusing the SNP of being obsessed with independence, we wouldn't be here now. Hell slap it intae thaim.

 

Angrily accusing the SNP of being obsessed with independence is like acting all surprised that the Greens are all about protecting the environment. Demanding that the SNP cease to focus on their goal of independence would be like going along to a Weight Watchers meeting and getting upset because no one is offering third helpings of cream cakes and fish suppers. But then that's what the Unionist parties are all about, they'd far rather Scotland blocked its arteries and grew unhealthy on the poor diet of Westminster than have us do anything about it. A healthy Scotland is a Scotland that can stand on its own two feet.

 

The SNP is obsessed with independence in the exact same way that Ruth Davidson is obsessed with photo opportunities while her party screws over the poor and the vulnerable, in the exact same way that Labour politicians are obsessed with attacking and undermining the real enemy, which is other Labour politicians, or in the exact same way that the Lib Dems are obsessed with the timetable of the number 17 bus to Kelty. Although in the interests of balance it should be pointed out that the Lib Dems are also obsessed with complaining about what they perceive as the dishonesty of the other parties while excusing the dishonesty of Lib Dems.

 

Mind you, while the Unionist parties are upset that the SNP sets out to do what it was founded to do, there's also a significant segment of Unionist opinion that's convinced that the SNP doesn't really want an independence after after all. While the Scottish media reported this week that Scotland is taking a step closer to another independence referendum, the Guardian's Severin Carrell was claiming that Nicola Sturgeon had put off an early referendum and was quietly shelving plans to hold a ballot. That's the early referendum that she never promised to have in the first place, in case you were wondering. The supposed early referendum that only ever existed in the mind of the Guardian.

 

I seem to recall we had a similar meme floating about during the first independence referendum, when many Unionist commentators managed to convince themselves that Alicsammin didn't really want independence at all while at the same time he was obsessed with it. I'm not really sure how that works, and neither does the Unionist media. It's a species of denialism. Now we're seeing it again, as many Unionist commentators rush to assure their readers that there won't be a second independence referendum because the SNP which is obsessed with independence doesn't really want independence after all.

 

But then holding contradictory ideas simultaneously is what Scottish Unionism is all about. Scottish Unionism rests upon simultaneously believing that Scotland - which they're terribly proud of, by the way - is a country but at the same time isn't. Scots are the Schrodinger's cats of nations, simultaneously existing but not existing while we remain locked in the shortbread tin. Scottish Unionism means convincing yourself that only a desire for Scottish independence counts as nationalism, but a knee jerk fleg waving love of the Great British state isn't nationalist at all.

 

What the Unionist commentators who claim Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want another referendum are really doing is setting up their readership for outrage when there is actually a second independence referendum. Oh that SNP, first they said they wanted one, then they said they didn't, and now they do after all. Cue mutterings about untrustworthy jocks and subsidy junkies.

 

The boring truth of the matter is that Scotland remains exactly where it was before in relation to another independence referendum. But then, "Evil SNP does exactly what it said it was going to do" doesn't make for a very exciting headline in a Unionist newspaper. A second independence referendum remains the most likely outcome of Westminster's failure to keep its promise to Scotland that only a No vote in 2014 could secure our EU membership, but the Scottish government has to been seen to exhaust all other options before going for a second referendum. Everyone knows that. Probably even Wullie Rennie knows that. It's not difficult.

 

And that's exactly what the Scottish government is going to do. There will be a second referendum on independence, and when we go into that referendum supporters of independence will be able to state in all honesty that all other options to keep Scotland's EU membership have been exhausted. But then honesty with the Scottish electorate is an alien concept to the Unionist establishment. Scotland will have its second referendum, and then the Schrodinger's cat of nations will open the shortbread tin and we'll realise that we've never been more alive.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The real work being not sitting on an Internet forum all day but losing my business access to the EU market.

 

You've not a clue, not a single clue how things work.

I'm sure you'll keep us all right. Why don't you cut and paste all your comments from the other brexit / independence threads and you won't have to waste your time retyping them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...