Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[Seymour M Hersh]

RBS's real "basket case" was Countrywide in the USA.

 

It was a basket case and due dilligence would have uncovered the toxicity of it Geoff. It was all down to Fred's huge ego and getting one over on Barclays. 

[Mr Brightside]

Virtually every aspect of our country has improved since we have had an SNP govt.

 

 

If that statement was true independence would have been voted for.

 

The best way for the SNP to achieve independence is to make Scotland a much more attractive place to live in compared to rest of the U.K. That means performing significantly better in education, health, social welfare and economy.

[Justin Z]

Kinrick o'scotland? WTF is that?

 

  It's Scots!

[Dawnrazor]

why don't you print the words to "Flower of Scotland" on the front to make it even more cringeworthy

[deesidejambo]

why don't you print the words to "Flower of Scotland" on the front to make it even more cringeworthy

And as is appears to be a Kingdom - who is the King?     Queen Nicola?   Brian Cox?

[Space Mackerel]

why don't you print the words to "Flower of Scotland" on the front to make it even more cringeworthy

You better get used to it as its finding a way into your pocket for your holidays.

 

 

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[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You better get used to it as its finding a way into your pocket for your holidays.

 

 

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When is Scotland putting in its application for the EU precisely?

[Space Mackerel]

When is Scotland putting in its application for the EU precisely?

Anytime we want.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/eus-chief-brexit-negotiator-agrees-8796253

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Anytime we want.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/eus-chief-brexit-negotiator-agrees-8796253

 

 

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Er no

 

first has to come an Indy vote of yes, which wont happen for a long time, if ever.

 

then application

 

Then find out the Spanish amongst others will always veto.

 

Sunk.

[Maroon Sailor]

Anytime we want. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/eus-chief-brexit-negotiator-agrees-8796253

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O.K then Space fish - she should call for the Indyref2 now

[Sarah O]

I'd rather the republic of Scotland tbh.

[Sarah O]

... because ANY monarch :vladstupid:

[Space Mackerel]

O.K then Space fish - she should call for the Indyref2 now

We'll decide when to call indyref2, when it's a definite Yes vote thanks.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

... because ANY monarch :vladstupid:

Not Brian Cox then?       I was thinking of Sean Connery.

[Dawnrazor]

We'll decide when to call indyref2, when it's a definite Yes vote thanks.

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I'll not hold my breath then

[deesidejambo]

We'll decide when to call indyref2, when it's a definite Yes vote thanks.

 

 

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Cold be a long wait then.

[Maroon Sailor]

We'll decide when to call indyref2, when it's a definite Yes vote thanks.

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Best put a cover over it - keep the dust off it as it is going to be on the table for quite a while.

[Space Mackerel]

Er no

 

first has to come an Indy vote of yes, which wont happen for a long time, if ever.

 

then application

 

Then find out the Spanish amongst others will always veto.

 

Sunk.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/the-real-spanish-veto-threat/

 

The real Spanish veto threat Jul

22

by weegingerdug

I wasn?t going to blog today because I?ve got a bad case of manflu, which is like a regular cold only with additional histrionics, drama, and attention seeking. So very much like the Labour leadership contest then. But there?s news from Spain which I thought worth sharing, mostly because it?s deeply discomfiting to those Unionists who keep claiming that Spain would veto the membership of an independent Scotland in the EU. And when you?ve got a severe dose of manflu, the one thing that cheers you up more than anything else is making people who annoy you really miserable.

 

Regular readers of this blog will know that the myth that Spain would veto an independent Scotland?s membership of the EU is just that, a myth without foundation. At no point has the Spanish government ever made a statement to that effect, and on those occasions when he has been asked explicitly to state whether or not Spain would veto the membership of the EU of an independent Scotland, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has refused to give an answer.

 

The reason is that Madrid?s opposition to a Catalan independence referendum is based on a clause in the Spanish constitution which says that Spanish territory is indivisible. Madrid argues that Catalan independence would be unconstitutional and therefore they would refuse to recognise it. Madrid?s officials have explicitly stated that they would veto the EU membership of a Catalonia which declared independence. They?ve never done the same about Scotland for the simple reason that the Scottish independence process would be perfectly constitutional and legal. When asked about this situation in an interview back in February 2014, foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo said that if Scotland were to achieve independence within the framework of the British constitution, then Spain would have nothing to say about it.

 

Of course Spain doesn?t want to encourage Scottish independence, what with us being besties of the Catalans, but on the other hand they know that they have no legal or constitutional grounds to object to Scottish independence. They objected to Kosovan independence because the Serbian constitution prohibits it, but Spain did not object to the independence of Croatia or South Sudan which were constitutional and legal. What will happen with the Scottish independence process is that Spain will huff and puff and harrumph and bluff, but the morning after a Yes vote in a Scottish independence referendum Madrid will say, ?But we?ve said all along that Scotland is an entirely different case from Catalonia.?

 

Foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo has been a busy man this week. Speaking earlier in the week about the situation of Gibraltar post-Brexit, the Spanish foreign minister did make an explicit threat of a veto. Only it wasn?t Scotland he threatened, he threatened to veto the terms of the UK?s Brexit if it includes Gibraltar. Reported in the Gibraltar Chronicle newspaper, the Spanish foreign minister was quoted as saying that when the UK presses the Brexit button, the European Council must agree the terms of the negotiations ?by unanimity?. He added that Spain intended to make it ?clear that Gibraltar does not belong to the UK? and would ?have the right to veto?.

 

So it?s not Scotland that faces a threat of a Spanish veto. It?s the rest of the UK and the Conservative government. Oh, the irony.

 

Last night there was a very interesting interview with Spanish foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo on the El Cascabel programme on Channel 13tv of Spanish television. The programme is available online for a limited period. Speaking about the dangers that occur when a party leaves the centre ground and flirts with extremism, Garc?a-Margallo said that Nigel Farage had succeeded in dragging the Conservative party and United Kingdom out of the EU, and added, ?I may be wrong, but within four or five years England will return to the frontiers that it had in the sixteenth century.?

 

Asked by the interviewer Antonio Jim?nez to clarify his point and asked whether he was referring to Scotland, Garc?a-Margallo elaborated, ?I believe that Scotland will demand an independence referendum in order to remain in the European Union.? He continued to speak of the problems that Northern Ireland would face as a result of the Brexit vote, and the risk to the peace process. At no point did he hint that Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU if we vote for independence in the referendum that he expects us to have. ?When you put the interests of your party before your country,? he went on, speaking about the British Conservatives, ?the result is a catastrophe.?

(Link to video http://www.13tv.es/programas-13tv/el-cascabel/ Comments start at 11.30. Please note the programme is in Spanish)

 

What the Spanish foreign minister?s comments tell us is that the highest levels of the Spanish government believe that Scottish independence is highly likely, and equally they tell us that they believe that the actions of Scotland in seeking an independence referendum are perfectly understandable given the behaviour of the British Conservatives. And by speaking of a return by England (and he said England not the United Kingdom) to its sixteenth century borders Garc?a-Margallo implicitly recognised that at the time Scotland was an independent state and was seeking a return to that status as a result of Brexit.

 

There was no hint of a threat against Scotland in anything that Garc?a-Margallo had to say, nothing to suggest a veto, and given that just a few minutes previously he had been discussing the situation in Catalonia, it would have been very easy for him to speak about any measures Spain might take to discourage Scotland from seeking independence. In fact, he adopted a tone that was sympathetic to Scotland and clearly set a second Scottish independence referendum within the context of the Conservative government being dragged to the right under the influence of political extremists and as a means for Scotland to safeguard its EU membership by recovering its previous status as an independent state. I nearly fell off my chair.

 

So there you have it. There is a serious threat of a Spanish veto arising out of the political fall out from the Brexit vote. It?s just that it?s not a threat against an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU, it?s a threat against the rest of the UK getting the kind of Brexit that the Tories might want.

 

Right now due to my manflu my eyes are teary and my nose is running and I feel a bit queasy, which is probably how the Scottish Conservatives and Unionists will be feeling once they digest the latest news from Spain. Spain is threatening to veto them, not an independent Scotland.

 

 

 

 

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[Thaw]

I had a bit of a wobble in the shower after writing my previous post. It occurred to me that aussieh may in fact be a character whose creator is having a chuckle at us all.

 

I hadn't intended this innuendo when I posted, but I thought someone might have picked up on it by now

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/the-real-spanish-veto-threat/

 

The real Spanish veto threat Jul

22

by weegingerdug

I wasn?t going to blog today because I?ve got a bad case of manflu, which is like a regular cold only with additional histrionics, drama, and attention seeking. So very much like the Labour leadership contest then. But there?s news from Spain which I thought worth sharing, mostly because it?s deeply discomfiting to those Unionists who keep claiming that Spain would veto the membership of an independent Scotland in the EU. And when you?ve got a severe dose of manflu, the one thing that cheers you up more than anything else is making people who annoy you really miserable.

 

Regular readers of this blog will know that the myth that Spain would veto an independent Scotland?s membership of the EU is just that, a myth without foundation. At no point has the Spanish government ever made a statement to that effect, and on those occasions when he has been asked explicitly to state whether or not Spain would veto the membership of the EU of an independent Scotland, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has refused to give an answer.

 

The reason is that Madrid?s opposition to a Catalan independence referendum is based on a clause in the Spanish constitution which says that Spanish territory is indivisible. Madrid argues that Catalan independence would be unconstitutional and therefore they would refuse to recognise it. Madrid?s officials have explicitly stated that they would veto the EU membership of a Catalonia which declared independence. They?ve never done the same about Scotland for the simple reason that the Scottish independence process would be perfectly constitutional and legal. When asked about this situation in an interview back in February 2014, foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo said that if Scotland were to achieve independence within the framework of the British constitution, then Spain would have nothing to say about it.

 

Of course Spain doesn?t want to encourage Scottish independence, what with us being besties of the Catalans, but on the other hand they know that they have no legal or constitutional grounds to object to Scottish independence. They objected to Kosovan independence because the Serbian constitution prohibits it, but Spain did not object to the independence of Croatia or South Sudan which were constitutional and legal. What will happen with the Scottish independence process is that Spain will huff and puff and harrumph and bluff, but the morning after a Yes vote in a Scottish independence referendum Madrid will say, ?But we?ve said all along that Scotland is an entirely different case from Catalonia.?

 

Foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo has been a busy man this week. Speaking earlier in the week about the situation of Gibraltar post-Brexit, the Spanish foreign minister did make an explicit threat of a veto. Only it wasn?t Scotland he threatened, he threatened to veto the terms of the UK?s Brexit if it includes Gibraltar. Reported in the Gibraltar Chronicle newspaper, the Spanish foreign minister was quoted as saying that when the UK presses the Brexit button, the European Council must agree the terms of the negotiations ?by unanimity?. He added that Spain intended to make it ?clear that Gibraltar does not belong to the UK? and would ?have the right to veto?.

 

So it?s not Scotland that faces a threat of a Spanish veto. It?s the rest of the UK and the Conservative government. Oh, the irony.

 

Last night there was a very interesting interview with Spanish foreign minister Jos? Manuel Garc?a-Margallo on the El Cascabel programme on Channel 13tv of Spanish television. The programme is available online for a limited period. Speaking about the dangers that occur when a party leaves the centre ground and flirts with extremism, Garc?a-Margallo said that Nigel Farage had succeeded in dragging the Conservative party and United Kingdom out of the EU, and added, ?I may be wrong, but within four or five years England will return to the frontiers that it had in the sixteenth century.?

 

Asked by the interviewer Antonio Jim?nez to clarify his point and asked whether he was referring to Scotland, Garc?a-Margallo elaborated, ?I believe that Scotland will demand an independence referendum in order to remain in the European Union.? He continued to speak of the problems that Northern Ireland would face as a result of the Brexit vote, and the risk to the peace process. At no point did he hint that Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU if we vote for independence in the referendum that he expects us to have. ?When you put the interests of your party before your country,? he went on, speaking about the British Conservatives, ?the result is a catastrophe.?

(Link to video http://www.13tv.es/programas-13tv/el-cascabel/ Comments start at 11.30. Please note the programme is in Spanish)

 

What the Spanish foreign minister?s comments tell us is that the highest levels of the Spanish government believe that Scottish independence is highly likely, and equally they tell us that they believe that the actions of Scotland in seeking an independence referendum are perfectly understandable given the behaviour of the British Conservatives. And by speaking of a return by England (and he said England not the United Kingdom) to its sixteenth century borders Garc?a-Margallo implicitly recognised that at the time Scotland was an independent state and was seeking a return to that status as a result of Brexit.

 

There was no hint of a threat against Scotland in anything that Garc?a-Margallo had to say, nothing to suggest a veto, and given that just a few minutes previously he had been discussing the situation in Catalonia, it would have been very easy for him to speak about any measures Spain might take to discourage Scotland from seeking independence. In fact, he adopted a tone that was sympathetic to Scotland and clearly set a second Scottish independence referendum within the context of the Conservative government being dragged to the right under the influence of political extremists and as a means for Scotland to safeguard its EU membership by recovering its previous status as an independent state. I nearly fell off my chair.

 

So there you have it. There is a serious threat of a Spanish veto arising out of the political fall out from the Brexit vote. It?s just that it?s not a threat against an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU, it?s a threat against the rest of the UK getting the kind of Brexit that the Tories might want.

 

Right now due to my manflu my eyes are teary and my nose is running and I feel a bit queasy, which is probably how the Scottish Conservatives and Unionists will be feeling once they digest the latest news from Spain. Spain is threatening to veto them, not an independent Scotland.

 

 

 

 

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tl ; dr

 

Every country has a veto on anyone joining the EU. Spain and Belgium are the most likely to object given the tensions within their countries.

[deesidejambo]

tl ; dr

 

Every country has a veto on anyone joining the EU. Spain and Belgium are the most likely to object given the tensions within their countries.

There are a number of Countries who would veto, of different reasons, either successional or increasingly due to Scotlands likelihood of being a new Greece that would need to be heavily supported.      Given that it only takes one to veto I wouldn't bet on it.    Getting access would mean giving up fishing rights, which was one of the reasons for Indy in the first place.

 

Nicola is sunk.

[Space Mackerel]

tl ; dr

 

Every country has a veto on anyone joining the EU. Spain and Belgium are the most likely to object given the tensions within their countries.

It doesn't matter if you read it or not, you don't live here either and the issues have no bearing on your life.

 

 

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[Mister T]

You better get used to it as its finding a way into your pocket for your holidays.

 

 

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It's as mythical as scotland's national animal.

[Sarah O]

Threads like these always (and have) decsend into one or two blow-hards on either side taking petty name callng insults and predictions of armageddon on either side.

 

Rest assured though, The voting majority of JKB are not actually arseholes. They voted Yes.

 

[Dawnrazor]

It doesn't matter if you read it or not, you don't live here either and the issues have no bearing on your life.

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You really are a ******, I live in England, i intend to work here for a while longer as I can earn more down here, I will move back when I'm financialy secure, all my family live in Scotland, all my wife's family live in Scotland, my son was born in Scotland, to suggest that because someone may not live in Scotland just now, that the independence debate "does not effect" them shows what a thick, ignorant, obnoxious arsehole you really are. I pity you and your like.

[Space Mackerel]

You really are a ******, I live in England, i intend to work here for a while longer as I can earn more down here, I will move back when I'm financialy secure, all my family live in Scotland, all my wife's family live in Scotland, my son was born in Scotland, to suggest that because someone may not live in Scotland just now, that the independence debate "does not effect" them shows what a thick, ignorant, obnoxious arsehole you really are. I pity you and your like.

Shame you might not get a vote either then like Geoff.

 

 

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[HaymarketJambo]

Does anyone know the view of the leader of the opposition at Westminster (Jeremy Corbyn) on Indy Ref 2?  

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It doesn't matter if you read it or not, you don't live here either and the issues have no bearing on your life.

 

 

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Actually, they do, as I might need to get my kids something like your picture should that come to pass.

[Space Mackerel]

Actually, they do, as I might need to get my kids something like your picture should that come to pass.

You love the UK so much that you've moved to the possible furthest point from it on the planet.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You love the UK so much that you've moved to the possible furthest point from it on the planet.

 

Shite troll is shite.

[Space Mackerel]

 

Shite troll is shite.

You're probably meaning Gorgiewave who started this whole thread for that purpose.

[Space Mackerel]

Does anyone know the view of the leader of the opposition at Westminster (Jeremy Corbyn) on Indy Ref 2?

Here's the view of Henry McLeish though

 

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/scotland-will-not-hold-independence-vote-for-five-years-says-former-leader-3022236/

[coconut doug]

If that statement was true independence would have been voted for.

 

The best way for the SNP to achieve independence is to make Scotland a much more attractive place to live in compared to rest of the U.K. That means performing significantly better in education, health, social welfare and economy.

Can you tell me which indicators in education, health social welfare and economy have declined since the snp came to power?

[Harry Potter]

Threads like these always (and have) decsend into one or two blow-hards on either side taking petty name callng insults and predictions of armageddon on either side.

 

Rest assured though, The voting majority of JKB are not actually arseholes. They voted Yes.

 

:jj:And still ended up a NO, ha ha, nae luck.

[deesidejambo]

Threads like these always (and have) decsend into one or two blow-hards on either side taking petty name callng insults and predictions of armageddon on either side.

 

Rest assured though, The voting majority of JKB are not actually arseholes. They voted Yes.

 

So anyone who voted No is an arsehole according to you.

[Mr Brightside]

Can you tell me which indicators in education, health social welfare and economy have declined since the snp came to power?

Literacy, hospital and doctor waiting times, number of people from low income families going to university. That's off the top of my head sure there are plenty more.

[JamboX2]

The problem was that RBS didn't do the due diligence. Lawyers to blame apparently. Salmond thought he was supporting Scottish business and jobs what's wrong with that? Do you think he should have known ABN amro was a basket case when those trying to take it over didn't know?

From speaking to some people involved, albeit at a lower level, and reading about this, the RBS board leant heavily on their compliance and risk teams to push the deal through. Blame is placed heavily at the top.

 

I don't expect third parties to be fully aware of such things. I do not agree with aussieh however that the banking crash can be laid at the door of number 10, as much as he and others would like to.

 

The issues here were made in Scotland by Scots.

[JamboX2]

Virtually every aspect of our country has improved since we have had an SNP govt.

 

Its the Tories who keep on about Indy.

 

Polls show SNP support up again.

 

Most Scots don't want to be isolated from Europe and as Brexit reality hits home more people will begin to think that our interests are best served in the EU and best looked after by a competent govt that has Scottish interests at heart. Clinging to the negatives in the universally acknowledged inaccurate Gers figures seems to be the only thing unionists have now. Like right wingers everywhere they are only interested in money but what will it be worth if it continues to collapse at the rate it has since the EU referendum? Economic one club golfers are not convincing anybody the polls show it..

Most Scottish business and trade is within the UK. With Brexit having happened it's probably more in line with Scottish interests to stay in the UK. Equally, most Scottish industry supplies the wider UK manufacturing market, which rose in value and has a larger order book since Brexit (due to a cheaper ?). That will impact the Scottish economy in due course.

 

Whilst I do not agree with Brexit nor want it. I do think its too early to quantify the damage here. In fact, I'd argue that Scotland's two governments have no plans for what they want. For May how close a relationship does she want with the EU? For Sturgeon it's brought independence as an issue back too soon for her. Imo, both would settle for single market access.

[Sarah O]

So anyone who voted No is an arsehole according to you.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Can you tell me which indicators in education, health social welfare and economy have declined since the snp came to power?

 

All of them?

[coconut doug]

Literacy, hospital and doctor waiting times, number of people from low income families going to university. That's off the top of my head sure there are plenty more.

Do you have any evidence for your claims?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Do you have any evidence for your claims?

 

If the great Jehovah himself came on down from on high and personally presented the evidence into your sweaty little palms, you still wouldn't believe it.

[aussieh]

Stockholm syndrome all over this thread. Don't worry there will be a chance to exorcise the demons eating up your no voting britter souls.

 

 

Lovely passport BTW, only Scots need apply, thank you.

[Space Mackerel]

[Space Mackerel]

If the great Jehovah himself came on down from on high and personally presented the evidence into your sweaty little palms, you still wouldn't believe it.

Is that the disgusting lying Daily Express journalist that's been outed today for her made up fantasies and lies?

 

 

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[Thunderstruck]

If the great Jehovah himself came on down from on high and personally presented the evidence into your sweaty little palms, you still wouldn't believe it.

Jehovah is busy tonight (it's Last Night of the Proms, where else would he be) so here is what mere mortals with an Internet connection can find in two minutes.

 

You are right, the content will be ignored as not conforming to the Word of the Taewonsu.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/04/snp-has-failed-scotlands-children

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/snp-under-pressure-over-appalling-drop-in-scottish-school-numera/

 

http://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkculture/articles.html?read_full=12816

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-snp-failed-deliver/21455

[Space Mackerel]

Jehovah is busy tonight (it's Last Night of the Proms, where else would he be) so here is what mere mortals with an Internet connection can find in two minutes.

You are right, the content will be ignored as not conforming to the Word of the Taewonsu. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/04/snp-has-failed-scotlands-childrenhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/snp-under-pressure-over-appalling-drop-in-scottish-school-numera/http://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkculture/articles.html?read_full=12816http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-snp-failed-deliver/21455

Quoting articles from the Telegraph and the New Statesman. Superb stuff.

[Thunderstruck]

Quoting articles from the Telegraph and the New Statesman. Superb stuff.

Are they incorrect?

 

Maybe you'll believe it when you read the same in:-

 

http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13774530.The_SNP_s_education_policies_have_been_an_abject_failure/

 

 

 

This is even more telling - they had already reached a "ton" of broken promises by 2011 - before they abandoned any pretence of effective governance to focus on the Independence Campaign.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf

[Space Mackerel]

Are they incorrect?

Maybe you'll believe it when you read the same in:-http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13774530.The_SNP_s_education_policies_have_been_an_abject_failure/

This is even more telling - they had already reached a "ton" of broken promises by 2011 - before they abandoned any pretence of effective governance to focus on the Independence Campaign.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf

The BBC :-/

[Trapper John McIntyre]

The BBC :-/

 

The National?