Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[Space Mackerel]

Leaving no stone unturned. The sort of meme people like you share. Only right they are taken apart

 

Here's your sort of piece.

Bwhahahahahahaha!

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/theresa-may-and-ruth-davidson-more-popular-than-nicola-sturgeon/

 

 

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[JamboX2]

your mirrors decked, but you're just a bitter labour loser. Maybe you should take some of your own advice and stop Blaming the SNP for labours mess.

 

 

Oh we're more like our European and N. American friends.

 

 

Debt and assets are about the same, so we'll start from scratch. No debt plenty of assets.

 

 

Bold: Aye right. I'll give you Canada and the USA. But do you really think culturally we're much like the French, Spanish, Germans, Danes and Hungarians?

 

Italics: Aye. Still believing the stuff Big Eck was spouting 2 years ago. Good on you. All the best.

[Mister T]

 

And a lot of these younger ones are pro EU now, I've 2 mates who's kids have changed their minds.

 

 

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I find it hard to believe that someone as dull and repetitive as you has got 2 mates.

[jack D and coke]

So the Nats are desperate for the oldies to die off and get their way. Shame for the them that the majority pro-Indy socio CDE group are more likely to have low lifespan/Darwin-award moments and cancel out the old folk.

 

If Yes ever did scrape over the line on Indy, the country would be in tatters. I've spoken to many people who would have no hesitation on moving to England if taxes were going to go sky high up here. Who will pay the inflated taxes if mainly low salaried employees are left?

I don't believe anybody when they say that tbh...that they'll move away that is. Most people have no idea how good we have it in comparison to most parts of England. If this was the case our property prices would collapse anyway and englands would inflate...in short it's not happening it's unionist supporters stamping their feet and an empty threat IMO.

I'm not strongly in either camp anymore I'm quite open to either side winning me over but this thread is enough proof that anything resembling sensible debate on these things is zero now and I don't get involved. It's just a bun fight whether it be on here or in the media.

The country would not be in tatters either what a ridiculous thing to say. Even when our oil production was at its highest in the 80's the Labour Party claimed Scotland would be Bangladesh if independent. Im sure you're well aware we would have been the exact opposite...we now know this was a blatant lie...so I take the opinions of Westminster politicians about Scotlands prospects and true position with enormous mistrust.

And as for anybody believing Ruth Davidson is a more popular politician then seriously

 

 

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[Guest]

I don't believe anybody when they say that tbh...that they'll move away that is. Most people have no idea how good we have it in comparison to most parts of England. If this was the case our property prices would collapse anyway and englands would inflate...in short it's not happening it's unionist supporters stamping their feet and an empty threat IMO.

I'm not strongly in either camp anymore I'm quite open to either side winning me over but this thread is enough proof that anything resembling sensible debate on these things is zero now and I don't get involved. It's just a bun fight whether it be on here or in the media.

The country would not be in tatters either what a ridiculous thing to say. Even when our oil production was at its highest in the 80's the Labour Party claimed Scotland would be Bangladesh if independent. Im sure you're well aware we would have been the exact opposite...we now know this was a blatant lie...so I take the opinions of Westminster politicians about Scotlands prospects and true position with enormous mistrust.

And as for anybody believing Ruth Davidson is a more popular politician then seriously

 

 

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Flight wealth and economic migration are real effects. Now independence wouldn't necessarily cause this but the economic and taxation may well. The snp didn't increase income tax by a penny due to the likluehood of reduced tax receipts, due to flight wealth; if memory serves right.

 

It wouldnt really depend of the government policy in comparison to ruk. If the tax situation is favourable for business or wealthy individual will move as it will have a significant financial benefit.

 

Likewise a flight of business and wealth into Ruk, could happen if Scotland tax and economic situation was favourable. Whilst, I would have significant concerns for economy for a significant period.

 

General convention, as Scotland are perceived to be more left wing that our neighbours, that we're likely to see higher tex environment to pay for all those social things people expect in independent Scotland.

 

I personally don't think the tax situations would be massively different, I would expect public services to take a tanking in an attempt to balance the books.

[jack D and coke]

Flight wealth and economic migration are real effects. Now independence wouldn't necessarily cause this but the economic and taxation may well. The snp didn't increase income tax by a penny due to the likluehood of reduced tax receipts, due to flight wealth; if memory serves right.

 

It wouldnt really depend of the government policy in comparison to ruk. If the tax situation is favourable for business or wealthy individual will move as it will have a significant financial benefit.

 

Likewise a flight of business and wealth into Ruk, could happen if Scotland tax and economic situation was favourable. Whilst, I would have significant concerns for economy for a significant period.

 

General convention, as Scotland are perceived to be more left wing that our neighbours, that we're likely to see higher tex environment to pay for all those social things people expect in independent Scotland.

 

I personally don't think the tax situations would be massively different, I would expect public services to take a tanking in an attempt to balance the books.

Yeah agree with all that...

I don't think the tax positions would be much different but personally I'd be prepared to pay a bit more to live here seeing as it's a much better place to live. I've lived and worked all over England...not a lot of it I'd rather live quite honestly. I'm moving to England is pish IMO unless the tax situation was ridiculous.

 

 

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[Australis]

A young SNP supporter in my work  after the last referendum.

He is about 20, we are all in our 30's and 40s and 50's with wives,children,mortgages commitments etc.

 

He said ok you won, but you are all old and will be dead soon then we will get indy.

Spends his wages on gambling as soon as he gets them, then stays in for most of the month because he is skint moaning and always on the tap.

 

The kind of guy who puts ?70 in the bandit machine then leaps around looking at everyone in the pub because he won a pound back.

I never knew that people who voted indy did not die, or decide not to care for family and friends.

[reaths17]

I find it hard to believe that someone as dull and repetitive as you has got 2 mates.

he's got that other delusional twat on here, that's one.

[jack D and coke]

A young SNP supporter in my work after the last referendum.

He is about 20, we are all in our 30's and 40s and 50's with wives,children,mortgages commitments etc.

 

He said ok you won, but you are all old and will be dead soon then we will get indy.

Spends his wages on gambling as soon as he gets them, then stays in for most of the month because he is skint moaning and always on the tap.

 

The kind of guy who puts ?70 in the bandit machine then leaps around looking at everyone in the pub because he won a pound back.

I never knew that people who voted indy did not die, or decide not to care for family and friends.

There are no unionist supporters who are scum like this, absolutely none and never will be!! There are also no Indy supporters who have wives, children, mortgages or any commitments whatsoever or are even older than 30!!

Fact.

 

 

 

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[aussieh]

Aye. Wee nippy won't call another vote until support for Indy gets to 60%. Which won't happen.

 

It's over for the Nats

Lets see what happens when Brexit happens and we get shafted.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Lets see what happens when Brexit happens and we get shafted.

Probably nothing tbh mate.

[Space Mackerel]

Probably nothing tbh mate.

Unionist logic:

 

U.K. leaves EU - land of milk and honey and the dawn of a new horizon in trade and wealth.

 

Scotland leaves U.K. - land of war and petulance, coupled with massive tax rises and back to living in caves.

 

 

 

 

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[aussieh]

Probably nothing tbh mate.

Could be, but it could be the deciding factor, we will see bud.

[Harry Potter]

Lets see what happens when Brexit happens and we get shafted.

Wheres the proof that we will be shafted.

[aussieh]

Wheres the proof that we will be shafted.

Its in the pudding, I suppose.

[Space Mackerel]

Wheres the proof that we will be shafted.

3 months we have been waiting on a plan.

 

Here it is...

 

"Brexit means Brexit"

 

Good yin Theresa

 

 

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[Captain Sausage]

So the independence supporters on here have just done as they always do. Moved swiftly on from the economic argument to peddling pish which offers nothing to either side.

 

Jack D - I know a lot of people complain and threaten to up and move sticks, but if me and my wife forced to pay the additional ?10-?15k per year to keep our public services where they are and cover the lack of funding from Westminster, I'd be down to England tomorrow. (I posted a while back to show how I got that figure)

 

I work for a company where it wouldn't be too difficult to engineer a move down south quickly and I know a lot of others in a similar position to me who'd do the same. It's not bluster or 'project fear', it's a real threat to an independent Scotland.

 

Scotland currently benefits from free university (great initiative - at least for certain subjects) which results in a lot of UK/EU students remaining in Scotland after graduation. This is an absolute gem for Scotland and results in a great deal of talent retention in the country. However, if these young graduates saw an opportunity to make more money south of the border (or in the EU, depending on how Brexit ends up), I'm sure a majority would go there - I know I would.

 

I'm still young and have no qualms about upping sticks with my young family if it meant we'd be financially better off. If Scotland was to lose a large chunk of this talent, we'd be in a lot of trouble. A large section of the population who'll go on to contribute significant taxes will leave and Scotland will suffer as a result of this talent drain.

[aussieh]

he's got that other delusional twat on here, that's one.

Is that a prediction of self-damnation in your avatar.

[Boris]

If the Tories are so popular in Scotland, why do the SNP still poll 50%+ in voting intention opinion polls?

 

As a comparison, you could ask, "Is Neil Lennon doing a good job at Hibs" and he may well get an extremely positive response.

 

Ask if Brendan Rodgers is doing a good job at Celtic, especially afetr Tuesday, and the the response may not be so good.

 

In other words, it means SFA.

 

Crosses on ballot papers is the true opinion.

 

Sadly, despite her blusterings about no more indy refs, Davidson is cycnically manipulating that by essentially making Scottish politics one dimensional to secure the Unionist vote.  Which begs the question, for the remaining Labour voters, is the Union more important than electing a Tory?

 

Regards another referendum, I doubt it will happen for a while.  The farce that is Brexit is a long, long way from being settled, the impacts of such are obviously unknown.  Will the UK come out of it ok?  I don't know, but personally I think the UK will suffer as a result, not only economically, but politically.  Having a Tory government at Westminster doing what they do so well (you see, they do do it well, but that doesn't mean I approve of it!) may just finally prove to everyone exactly what the Tories are all about, thus reducing Davidson's allure, or rather having it plateau around 25% of the vote.

[jack D and coke]

So the independence supporters on here have just done as they always do. Moved swiftly on from the economic argument to peddling pish which offers nothing to either side.

 

Jack D - I know a lot of people complain and threaten to up and move sticks, but if me and my wife forced to pay the additional ?10-?15k per year to keep our public services where they are and cover the lack of funding from Westminster, I'd be down to England tomorrow. (I posted a while back to show how I got that figure)

 

I work for a company where it wouldn't be too difficult to engineer a move down south quickly and I know a lot of others in a similar position to me who'd do the same. It's not bluster or 'project fear', it's a real threat to an independent Scotland.

 

Scotland currently benefits from free university (great initiative - at least for certain subjects) which results in a lot of UK/EU students remaining in Scotland after graduation. This is an absolute gem for Scotland and results in a great deal of talent retention in the country. However, if these young graduates saw an opportunity to make more money south of the border (or in the EU, depending on how Brexit ends up), I'm sure a majority would go there - I know I would.

 

I'm still young and have no qualms about upping sticks with my young family if it meant we'd be financially better off. If Scotland was to lose a large chunk of this talent, we'd be in a lot of trouble. A large section of the population who'll go on to contribute significant taxes will leave and Scotland will suffer as a result of this talent drain.

Exactly why none of your doom mongering would happen.

 

 

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[Arnold Rothstein]

Unionist logic:

 

U.K. leaves EU - land of milk and honey and the dawn of a new horizon in trade and wealth.

 

Scotland leaves U.K. - land of war and petulance, coupled with massive tax rises and back to living in caves.

 

 

 

 

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I haven't suggested anywhere that Scotland couldn't cope on its own or be a success. I just don't see the need to and clearly neither do the majority of Scots.

[jack D and coke]

I haven't suggested anywhere that Scotland couldn't cope on its own or be a success. I just don't see the need to and clearly neither do the majority of Scots.

Sadly that seems to be a view that's rarely expressed and instead the focus is on the savage taxes, border posts, everybody leaving, boarded up buildings plague of locusts etc that the people of the country will have to cope with.

The thing is as our budget is cut more and more, it's going to happen too we're being battered over the head with how much we sponge off the rUK these days, how long will people be prepared to accept not really being able to do anything about it. Will they meekly accept that we're nothing but scrounging, cadging subsidy junkies and learn to button it?

 

 

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[SwindonJambo]

Flight wealth and economic migration are real effects. Now independence wouldn't necessarily cause this but the economic and taxation may well. The snp didn't increase income tax by a penny due to the likluehood of reduced tax receipts, due to flight wealth; if memory serves right.

It wouldnt really depend of the government policy in comparison to ruk. If the tax situation is favourable for business or wealthy individual will move as it will have a significant financial benefit.

Likewise a flight of business and wealth into Ruk, could happen if Scotland tax and economic situation was favourable. Whilst, I would have significant concerns for economy for a significant period.

General convention, as Scotland are perceived to be more left wing that our neighbours, that we're likely to see higher tex environment to pay for all those social things people expect in independent Scotland.

I personally don't think the tax situations would be massively different, I would expect public services to take a tanking in an attempt to balance the books.

Excellent and well balanced post and goodness only knows the thread needs it. I think tax would have to be kept roughly the same to stop a wealth and talent flight. The public sector would have to take a big hit and Scotland's public sector is very big. We also have a lot of public sector jobs which serve the whole UK, most of which would be lost. If taxes were raised, there would be a wealth and talent fight, a fall in tax revenues so the public services would be lost anyway.

[jambos are go!]

As I have said before I want another Referendum soon because I believe Independence would again be rejected and separatism put to the sword once and for all. Might be wrong but I would take the risk. Scotland needs certainty. My biggest problem is in the face of probable defeat the SNP will continue to prolong the agony because they accept there is no appetite for another Referendum. Brexit was seen as a golden opportunity to launch a new Independence drive but it has barely moved the polls. Time for the SNP to put up and go for another Referendum or shut up and accept a Devolved solution.

[Thunderstruck]

Crosses on ballot papers is the true opinion.

 

 

Exactly!

 

We had a vote on Independence almost two years ago and that was a clear vote to remain as part of the U.K.

 

Since then, trying to read the tea leaves to determine support for Independence on the basis of other votes on different questions using variable franchises and voting systems is going to be a flawed exercise and will inevitably be twisted to suit agenda. We all do it to pander to our prejudices.

 

This is what happened with The EU Referendum - Scotland voted for the UK to remain in the EU, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody should attempt to extrapolate that to prove anything in terms of Scottish Independence.

 

We can only speculate as to how Ms Sturgeon would have reacted to a "Remain" vote. Would she have gone quiet on independence and got on with the day job or would some other pretext have been advanced?

[jack D and coke]

Exactly!

 

We had a vote on Independence almost two years ago and that was a clear vote to remain as part of the U.K.

 

Since then, trying to read the tea leaves to determine support for Independence on the basis of other votes on different questions using variable franchises and voting systems is going to be a flawed exercise and will inevitably be twisted to suit agenda. We all do it to pander to our prejudices.

 

This is what happened with The EU Referendum - Scotland voted for the UK to remain in the EU, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody should attempt to extrapolate that to prove anything in terms of Scottish Independence.

 

We can only speculate as to how Ms Sturgeon would have reacted to a "Remain" vote. Would she have gone quiet on independence and got on with the day job or would some other pretext have been advanced?

You see it wasn't really clear now was it. I would've been very uncomfortable with a 55/45 in favour of yes as the country is hugely divided. I wanted something in the region of 70/30 regardless of what way it went to put it to bed tbh.

Tosh'sleftfoot made a great point a few months back on a similar thread about a second referendum having everything on the table this time and I'd be well up for it.

Everything on the table....if it's Yes we get on with it and if it's No we dissolve the Scottish parliament the whole shebang and accept we're a region of the uk and STFU forever.

This having our cake and eating it is bad for everybody it needs settled once and for all.

 

 

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[Boris]

Exactly!

 

We had a vote on Independence almost two years ago and that was a clear vote to remain as part of the U.K.

 

Since then, trying to read the tea leaves to determine support for Independence on the basis of other votes on different questions using variable franchises and voting systems is going to be a flawed exercise and will inevitably be twisted to suit agenda. We all do it to pander to our prejudices.

 

This is what happened with The EU Referendum - Scotland voted for the UK to remain in the EU, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody should attempt to extrapolate that to prove anything in terms of Scottish Independence.

 

We can only speculate as to how Ms Sturgeon would have reacted to a "Remain" vote. Would she have gone quiet on independence and got on with the day job or would some other pretext have been advanced?

 

We did have a vote and No won.  Fair play.

 

But the margin of victory was not emphatic and, given the increased numbers voting SNP at elections since, it would be fair to say that another one will be on the agenda.

 

Regards "getting on with the day job"...as I posted earlier, it appears to me (at least) that the one banging on most about this is Ms Davidson.  Shouldn't she be getting on with her role as leader of a very small opposition?

 

FWIW, although I voted Yes in th eindy ref, I did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections.

[deesidejambo]

You see it wasn't really clear now was it. I would've been very uncomfortable with a 55/45 in favour of yes as the country is hugely divided. I wanted something in the region of 70/30 regardless of what way it went to put it to bed tbh.

Tosh'sleftfoot made a great point a few months back on a similar thread about a second referendum having everything on the table this time and I'd be well up for it.

Everything on the table....if it's Yes we get on with it and if it's No we dissolve the Scottish parliament the whole shebang and accept we're a region of the uk and STFU forever.

This having our cake and eating it is bad for everybody it needs settled once and for all.

 

 

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I tend to agree that this ongoing uncertainty will negatively affect the wellbeing of all in the Country. 

 

I want another IndyRef asap.      Put this whole thing to bed once and for all so we can all move on.

 

The problem is that wont happen - Nippy will wait until she knows she will win.    That could be a very long time coming and the uncertainty for all will drag on for many years.

 

She got the perfect result on Brexit handed to her on a plate - but surprise surprise, the "upsurge" in Yes voter intention has not materialised so her initial bluster on another Referendum has now faded way.

[deesidejambo]

We did have a vote and No won.  Fair play.

 

But the margin of victory was not emphatic and, given the increased numbers voting SNP at elections since, it would be fair to say that another one will be on the agenda.

 

Regards "getting on with the day job"...as I posted earlier, it appears to me (at least) that the one banging on most about this is Ms Davidson.  Shouldn't she be getting on with her role as leader of a very small opposition?

 

FWIW, although I voted Yes in th eindy ref, I did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections.

Indeed another Indyref is coming.  When do you think it should be and what would you regard as an emphatic victory?

[aussieh]

I tend to agree that this ongoing uncertainty will negatively affect the wellbeing of all in the Country.

 

I want another IndyRef asap. Put this whole thing to bed once and for all so we can all move on.

 

The problem is that wont happen - Nippy will wait until she knows she will win. That could be a very long time coming and the uncertainty for all will drag on for many years.

 

She got the perfect result on Brexit handed to her on a plate - but surprise surprise, the "upsurge" in Yes voter intention has not materialised so her initial bluster on another Referendum has now faded way.

Brexit hasn't happened yet, let's wait and see.

 

Labour holds the key for me, when they become pro Indy it's a game changer. Just my opinion.

[Boris]

You see it wasn't really clear now was it. I would've been very uncomfortable with a 55/45 in favour of yes as the country is hugely divided. I wanted something in the region of 70/30 regardless of what way it went to put it to bed tbh.

Tosh'sleftfoot made a great point a few months back on a similar thread about a second referendum having everything on the table this time and I'd be well up for it.

Everything on the table....if it's Yes we get on with it and if it's No we dissolve the Scottish parliament the whole shebang and accept we're a region of the uk and STFU forever.

This having our cake and eating it is bad for everybody it needs settled once and for all.

 

 

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Gonna have to disagree with you there.  Rejecting independence is not the same as embracing full Whitehall control.

 

Although, funnily enough, if put in such black and white terms, it may help the YES side of things!

[XB52]

and still it is the unionist parties and their supporters who go on and on and on about Independence, while the SNP get on with governing the country. 

[Boris]

Indeed another Indyref is coming.  When do you think it should be and what would you regard as an emphatic victory?

 

I think it will happen more or less once the Brexit agreement is struck.  To do so before would be wrong, imo, because it would allow everyone to see how the future of the UK outwith of the EU was going to pan out.  Or at least have a better idea of this.

 

Like JD & Coke above, had YES won on 55/45 I'd have been uncomfortable too.  What is emphatic?  60%+, although were we to vote for independence anything over 67%+ would be truly emphatic, imo.

[Arnold Rothstein]

and still it is the unionist parties and their supporters who go on and on and on about Independence, while the SNP get on with governing the country.

The SNP haven't mentioned it all in the last few weeks and months then?

[aussieh]

Kevin Hague / Fraser Whyte / Neil Lovatt have all ripped Wings and co's material to shreds when it comes to the economy. They have never been able to reciprocate, instead resorting to insults and launching swarms of cybernats to abuse them.

 

Go on, pick some stuff to bits on the following site.

 

http://rwbblog.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Sites like these didn't exist last time round in 2014 as No was very slow to respond to the threat of Yes. Social media was a big player in 2014 and Yes dominated on the propaganda front. With sites like the above disproving all the fictitious rubbish that nats like to circulate, No voters will have a hell of a lot more to respond with if there is to ever be another indyref.

Yes dominated on the propaganda front. Aye, very good. Every news outlet except one, every mainstream party except one, really?.

Did you post that without laughing.

[Space Mackerel]

You can clearly see the Unionists are squealing. Referendum now as they its only going one way.

 

Meanwhile, on. BBC Breakfast today...

 

 

They don't even try to hide it now

[JamboX2]

Unionist logic:

 

U.K. leaves EU - land of milk and honey and the dawn of a new horizon in trade and wealth.

 

Scotland leaves U.K. - land of war and petulance, coupled with massive tax rises and back to living in caves.

 

 

 

 

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No, both are as shit economically as the other

[JamboX2]

The SNP haven't mentioned it all in the last few weeks and months then?

Shhh.... don't say that. It's a unionist lie.

 

The SNP talk domestic politics when it's good to do so. Then drown it out when bad with indy chat.

 

Joanna Cherry last night said they had a plan for Brexit and the UK govt didn't. Nor Labour she added. Corbyn and Smith have both set out theor plans. But, the SNP seem to just be trying to make a lot of capital on no substance with vacuous statements whilst the Tories do likewise.

 

Happily admit that Labour are in a mess aside from that.

[deesidejambo]

Brexit hasn't happened yet, let's wait and see.

 

Labour holds the key for me, when they become pro Indy it's a game changer. Just my opinion.

The Labour position is very shaky and not a game-changer, for the following reasons.....................

 

If Labour switch to Indy, they will lose the vote of the current Labour voters who are Unionists.  Those voters would have no choice but to move to the Tories.

 

The only place Labour would gain votes is therefore from the SNP, but its unlikely that significant numbers of SNP voters will switch to Labour.

 

So SLAb would run the risk of a massive drop in voter support as the Pro-Indy voters would be split between SLAb/SNP whilst the Anti-Indy would all go to the Tories.

 

Labour wont take that risk.

[Hasselhoff]

Yes dominated on the propaganda front. Aye, very good. Every news outlet except one, every mainstream party except one, really?.

Did you post that without laughing.

 

I meant on social media - they were miles ahead of the No side when it came to unchecked social media lies being spread. 

 

The vast majority of newspapers, despite allowing columns from both Yes/No people had editorial stances where they believed No was the right choice. They are not obliged to even up the opinion to make things level. 

 

No didn't have a response last time to the social media explosion that the Yes side managed so much better. 

[jack D and coke]

The Labour position is very shaky and not a game-changer, for the following reasons.....................

 

If Labour switch to Indy, they will lose the vote of the current Labour voters who are Unionists. Those voters would have no choice but to move to the Tories.

 

The only place Labour would gain votes is therefore from the SNP, but its unlikely that significant numbers of SNP voters will switch to Labour.

 

So SLAb would run the risk of a massive drop in voter support as the Pro-Indy voters would be split between SLAb/SNP whilst the Anti-Indy would all go to the Tories.

 

Labour wont take that risk.

I honestly think Labour are finished. Anybody they appoint in England will not go down well with Scots voters IMO. Corbyn? He won't win anything and that Owen Wilson is an utter goon who comes over seriously creepy and weird about women. Dugdale? Deary me. Before her Murphy and Milliband down south? Absolutely all over the place they are now.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

I meant on social media - they were miles ahead of the No side when it came to unchecked social media lies being spread. 

 

The vast majority of newspapers, despite allowing columns from both Yes/No people had editorial stances where they believed No was the right choice. They are not obliged to even up the opinion to make things level. 

 

No didn't have a response last time to the social media explosion that the Yes side managed so much better. 

Indeed Yes managed Social Media very well.  One example was on the morning of the vote all over Social Media came hundreds of posts along the lines of "OMG, my auntie said she would vote No and now she will vote Yes!! OMG OMG".

 

This was of course centrally-orchestrated lies (unless the whole of the Yes Campaign were related and all had the same Auntie) but those who criticise the MSM all the time may want to stop and think for a second that other Media sources can also be manipulated, in this case by the Yes campaign.

[Thunderstruck]

We did have a vote and No won. Fair play.

 

But the margin of victory was not emphatic and, given the increased numbers voting SNP at elections since, it would be fair to say that another one will be on the agenda.

 

Regards "getting on with the day job"...as I posted earlier, it appears to me (at least) that the one banging on most about this is Ms Davidson. Shouldn't she be getting on with her role as leader of a very small opposition?

 

FWIW, although I voted Yes in th eindy ref, I did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections.

Had the vote been 51% for "Yes", marginal-in-the-extreme or not, we would have now been Independent for 6 months. That much is guaranteed.

 

Given the turnout and engagement, it is hard to disagree with thecSept 14 result.

 

In subsequent votes, we should take care to note that the volume of support has changed little over the years if we take SNP as lagely synonymous with pro-independence.

 

Curtice's SSAS is the best long-term measure and it consistently has that grouping at between 33 and 38% of the electorate. It is now in the lower end of that range. His estimate has now been tested against three polls and found to be accurate in all three.

 

As for "getting on with the day job", if memory serves it is Ms Sturgeon that is in the Executive post and it is, therefore, her duty (as a public servant) to get on and do her best for ALL of the people in Scotland. Hardly a day goes by when she is not making direct or indirect references to another referendum.

 

Ms Davidson can only hold her to account for her action and inaction - if the FM will turn up at the opening of an envelope for air time and another chance to promote her agenda then, surely, the Leader of the Opposition has a right to take her to task.

 

As you said earlier, we can speculate all we like but the fact is that another referendum is well in the future, if at all. The risk is simply too high and the support too low and too variable for Ms Sturgeon to risk her position.

 

I also didn't vote for the SNP in the May 16 election but I doubt that would be a surprise.

[deesidejambo]

I honestly think Labour are finished. Anybody they appoint in England will not go down well with Scots voters IMO. Corbyn? He won't win anything and that Owen Wilson is an utter goon who comes over seriously creepy and weird about women. Dugdale? Deary me. Before her Murphy and Milliband down south? Absolutely all over the place they are now.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree.

 

Not only the quality of the candidates (although I am a supporter of Anne Begg as a principled politician) but its simply the fact that the country is becoming wealthier, with increasing numbers in the higher tax bracket, who are less likely to vote for Labour.

 

Also Labour has lost its way idealogically: is it a party of the "working class" or isn't it?  If yes then its destined for years in opposition, where it should be more effective.  If it wants to be a mainstream party though and govern, it will have to desert its core support.

 

Result - disaster.   The country has changed and Labour is finished.

 

I hope Anne Begg goes over to the Liberals.

[Space Mackerel]

Shhh.... don't say that. It's a unionist lie.

 

The SNP talk domestic politics when it's good to do so. Then drown it out when bad with indy chat.

 

Joanna Cherry last night said they had a plan for Brexit and the UK govt didn't. Nor Labour she added. Corbyn and Smith have both set out theor plans. But, the SNP seem to just be trying to make a lot of capital on no substance with vacuous statements whilst the Tories do likewise.

 

Happily admit that Labour are in a mess aside from that.

Not a mention of Alastair Campbell and he's wee Tory pal getting a riddy off John McDonnell and the rest of the QT audience?

[SwindonJambo]

I think it will happen more or less once the Brexit agreement is struck.  To do so before would be wrong, imo, because it would allow everyone to see how the future of the UK outwith of the EU was going to pan out.  Or at least have a better idea of this.

 

Like JD & Coke above, had YES won on 55/45 I'd have been uncomfortable too.  What is emphatic?  60%+, although were we to vote for independence anything over 67%+ would be truly emphatic, imo.

And that sir, is why you are my favourite 'Yes' poster. Respectful, knowledgable and articulate debate and some good points made and acceptance that independence would be a long hard road and not a panacea. If support for Indy got to an emphatic level rather than a marginal win, a tipping point would be reached whereby the remaining third would accept the result of a vote and quickly get onside and there would be a collective will amongst the people to make it work. A narrow win for one side or the other (regardless of which) leaves bitterness and division with many on the losing side refusing to accept the result and going into 'in denial' mode with insults and accusations being thrown around. That's exactly what's been happening down South with the Brexit vote result.

[deesidejambo]

And that sir, is why you are my favourite 'Yes' poster. Respectful, knowledgable and articulate debate and some good points made and acceptance that independence would be a long hard road and not a panacea. If support for Indy got to an emphatic level rather than a marginal win, a tipping point would be reached whereby the remaining third would accept the result of a vote and quickly get onside and there would be a collective will amongst the people to make it work. A narrow win for one side or the other (regardless of which) leaves bitterness and division with many on the losing side refusing to accept the result and going into 'in denial' mode with insults and accusations being thrown around. That's exactly what's been happening down South with the Brexit vote result.

Indeed people confuse "Democracy" with "Majority Rule".  The two are not always aligned.

 

51% ruling over 49% will always be a problem, especially where geographical aspects are considered.     Aberdeen/Edinburgh is strong No territory.     Glasgow/Dundee is strong Yes.   No matter how the vote turns out, two cities will feel they have been ruled by the other two.

 

Hence 60/40 is a better and more acceptable measure of acceptability.

[punkrockcroc]

We did have a vote and No won.  Fair play.

 

But the margin of victory was not emphatic and, given the increased numbers voting SNP at elections since, it would be fair to say that another one will be on the agenda.

 

Regards "getting on with the day job"...as I posted earlier, it appears to me (at least) that the one banging on most about this is Ms Davidson.  Shouldn't she be getting on with her role as leader of a very small opposition?

 

FWIW, although I voted Yes in th eindy ref, I did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections.

You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want. If there was another referendum and yes won would Nicola sturgeon give us another referendum 2 or 3 years later since it was a tie at 1 - 1 best of 3.

[deesidejambo]

You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want. If there was another referendum and yes won would Nicola sturgeon give us another referendum 2 or 3 years later since it was a tie at 1 - 1 best of 3.

Indeed it is not genuine democracy to just keep on having referendums until you win one.      Does that mean if there was an IndyRef and the SNP won, then the Tories could then call another one a year after?  No.   SNP just need one hit and its all over with no comeback.  However they can have as many comebacks themselves in the event of No vote.

[Boris]

You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want. If there was another referendum and yes won would Nicola sturgeon give us another referendum 2 or 3 years later since it was a tie at 1 - 1 best of 3.

 

 

Indeed it is not genuine democracy to just keep on having referendums until you win one.      Does that mean if there was an IndyRef and the SNP won, then the Tories could then call another one a year after?  No.   SNP just need one hit and its all over with no comeback.  However they can have as many comebacks themselves in the event of No vote.

 

To be fair, if there was a vote for independence, do you really think there would be the call for a referendum on a union with another country?

 

Would there be the will?

 

I doubt it.