Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[JamboX2]

You started off all sensible then finished up that everyone under 30 would desert Scotland like a sinking dingy in the med.

 

We know what kind of media you read now.

To be honest, this happens readily anyway. People nowadays are more mobile than ever before. You can move for work very easily.

 

Scotland, independent or not, should build a country which provides the amenities of life necessary to meet a 21st century economy and lifestyle. More childcare, faster broadband available across the nation not just the cities and a 24/7 state and public services are the future.

 

Yet we're still faffing around the edges and screwing up things like police reform and navel gazing about the constitution.

[SwindonJambo]

Funny like. I know plenty mates that have ****ed off to Oz, that must mean Britain is shite and going down the tubes for the last 40 years.

It certainly isn't because those we've lost to Australia, Canada and elsewhere have more than been replaced by others coming in from elsewhere e.g. Europe and South Asia.

[Space Mackerel]

Yes of course they do and I knew that! The rigs are sitting there mothballed awaiting their fate. If oil has a resurgence they'll be reused. If not they'll be taken elsewhere to be scrapped.

Your knowledge of the economy north of the central belt is plain to see.

 

And about 99% of the people on here.

[Space Mackerel]

To be honest, this happens readily anyway. People nowadays are more mobile than ever before. You can move for work very easily.

 

Scotland, independent or not, should build a country which provides the amenities of life necessary to meet a 21st century economy and lifestyle. More childcare, faster broadband available across the nation not just the cities and a 24/7 state and public services are the future.

 

Yet we're still faffing around the edges and screwing up things like police reform and navel gazing about the constitution.

More nannies and Xbox is the future [emoji23]

 

If you're 20 odd years old

[SwindonJambo]

To be honest, this happens readily anyway. People nowadays are more mobile than ever before. You can move for work very easily.

Scotland, independent or not, should build a country which provides the amenities of life necessary to meet a 21st century economy and lifestyle. More childcare, faster broadband available across the nation not just the cities and a 24/7 state and public services are the future.

Yet we're still faffing around the edges and screwing up things like police reform and navel gazing about the constitution.

Good sensible and non confrontational post.

[Thunderstruck]

In other words...

 

Too wee and too stupid to be the North Sea scrap merchants. [emoji23]

There's certainly a degree of stupidity in not planning for the future. I'm sure you know that failing to plan is planning to fail.

 

It's an even more "epic fail" when the country was led for seven crucial years by a one time "oil economist". If he paid any attention, we would have foreseen the need to decommission fields and positioned Tayside and Cromarty to take advantage. As we are now only too painfully aware he was too busy trying to buy independence with claims of volume and value of oil that were, at best, Ill-informed or, more likely, straightforward deceit.

 

Too wee - quite likely as the economies of scale certainly favour the Norwegians. Oil Companies are not known for philanthropy and lowest tender will win.

[Space Mackerel]

There's certainly a degree of stupidity in not planning for the future. I'm sure you know that failing to plan is planning to fail.

 

It's an even more "epic fail" when the country was led for seven crucial years by a one time "oil economist". If he paid any attention, we would have foreseen the need to decommission fields and positioned Tayside and Cromarty to take advantage. As we are now only too painfully aware he was too busy trying to buy independence with claims of volume and value of oil that were, at best, Ill-informed or, more likely, straightforward deceit.

 

Too wee - quite likely as the economies of scale certainly favour the Norwegians. Oil Companies are not known for philanthropy and lowest tender will win.

Another one with no idea about life outside Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

Take a wee trip up North and see for yourself. Up the A9 that's getting upgraded. [emoji106]

[JamboX2]

More nannies and Xbox is the future [emoji23]

 

If you're 20 odd years old

No. The future economy is going to be based on a need for good and universal internet access, on a very flexible and mobile work force and will rely on the state providing a base line of services rather than benefits.

 

Meaning we shoukd look to end tax credits and child benefit and put money into childcare. Ending housing benefit and investing in rent control and in house building to satisfy demand. Investing in better public transpory. Investing in emerging industries. Investing heavily in colleges. Modernising public services so they are online services and radical reform to school hours and other public services like health - one report i read on this was to have central government run core health services and have local government organise surgeries and public health policyto confront regional inequalitiesin health.

 

Sadly, Scottish politics shuns what it doesnt know. The NHS hasnt been reformed since the 1970s in any major way up here. Nor local government. Scotland needs radical public sector change to buikd a nation fit for the 21st century.

 

Frankly the SNP aren't bringing that to the table. Best to cut APD and ban circus animals than try anything truky transformational.

[Space Mackerel]

No. The future economy is going to be based on a need for good and universal internet access, on a very flexible and mobile work force and will rely on the state providing a base line of services rather than benefits.

 

Meaning we shoukd look to end tax credits and child benefit and put money into childcare. Ending housing benefit and investing in rent control and in house building to satisfy demand. Investing in better public transpory. Investing in emerging industries. Investing heavily in colleges. Modernising public services so they are online services and radical reform to school hours and other public services like health - one report i read on this was to have central government run core health services and have local government organise surgeries and public health policyto confront regional inequalitiesin health.

 

Sadly, Scottish politics shuns what it doesnt know. The NHS hasnt been reformed since the 1970s in any major way up here. Nor local government. Scotland needs radical public sector change to buikd a nation fit for the 21st century.

 

Frankly the SNP aren't bringing that to the table. Best to cut APD and ban circus animals than try anything truky transformational.

 

Spoken like a true Tory. [emoji106]

[aussieh]

It's you who is talking pish. The oil forecasts show a continued production decline which is normal for a finite resource.

 

Keep spouting your nonsense though.

Keep bumping yet gums, utter pish.

[aussieh]

Sturgeon - worst thing to happen to Scotland since Longshanks

Best.

The worst thing is British infestation.Monkey see Monkey do, but dont worry Stockholm will be purged soon enough.

[aussieh]

Spoken like a true Tory. [emoji106]

Exactly, sadly he thinks New Labour are socialists. And he talks as if the SNP have been in power since the 70s, forgetting tory, red tory, tory rule since 79.

Thank feck for the SNP or this country would be proper fecked, the way Thatcher intended.

[Mister T]

Best.

The worst thing is British infestation.Monkey see Monkey do, but dont worry Stockholm will be purged soon enough.

British infestation? **** off and join the green brigade.

[Thunderstruck]

Another one with no idea about life outside Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

Take a wee trip up North and see for yourself. Up the A9 that's getting upgraded. [emoji106]

So wrong, so full of yourself; you really don't have much of a clue.

[aussieh]

British infestation? **** off and join the green brigade.

[Boris]

No. The future economy is going to be based on a need for good and universal internet access, on a very flexible and mobile work force and will rely on the state providing a base line of services rather than benefits.

 

Meaning we shoukd look to end tax credits and child benefit and put money into childcare. Ending housing benefit and investing in rent control and in house building to satisfy demand. Investing in better public transpory. Investing in emerging industries. Investing heavily in colleges. Modernising public services so they are online services and radical reform to school hours and other public services like health - one report i read on this was to have central government run core health services and have local government organise surgeries and public health policyto confront regional inequalitiesin health.

 

Sadly, Scottish politics shuns what it doesnt know. The NHS hasnt been reformed since the 1970s in any major way up here. Nor local government. Scotland needs radical public sector change to buikd a nation fit for the 21st century.

 

Frankly the SNP aren't bringing that to the table. Best to cut APD and ban circus animals than try anything truky transformational.

 

Um...you remember the 1980's, pre-devolution and Thatcher?

 

Local Government, remember Lothian Regional Council?  As well as the District Councils?  NOt saying it is any better now, but there have been major changes.

 

All the investment things you mention are laudable, but no party is going to give you that - well, not as long as the purse strings are effectively controlled from Westminster.  To get these, I'll stick my neck out and say only independence will give you any hope of delivering these.  Not because the SNP will, but because a new country could start from scratch and prioritise how it wants to develop.  IMO.

[Space Mackerel]

So wrong, so full of yourself; you really don't have much of a clue.

Going up [emoji4]

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-support-for-scottish-independence-higher-than-2014-1-4228443

[SwindonJambo]

Um...you remember the 1980's, pre-devolution and Thatcher?

 

Local Government, remember Lothian Regional Council?  As well as the District Councils?  NOt saying it is any better now, but there have been major changes.

 

All the investment things you mention are laudable, but no party is going to give you that - well, not as long as the purse strings are effectively controlled from Westminster.  To get these, I'll stick my neck out and say only independence will give you any hope of delivering these.  Not because the SNP will, but because a new country could start from scratch and prioritise how it wants to develop.  IMO.

For me, this is a much more sensible, well informed and constructive contribution to the debate. You are on the opposite side from me, but good post, sir.

 

Being dispassionate, there is no doubt that the UK on the whole is increasingly remote from the Wesrminster bubble, the North of England as much as Scotland and pretty much anywhere outside the Southeast. My concerns are economic ones. The lack of clarity on currency being a big issue too. The big dicotomy is keep the pound and we don't control our monetary policy and are tied to someone else's interest rates. Set up our own currency and there would be some turbulence before it stabilised. We would then have currency fluctuations to muddy the waters of the trading relationship with rUK, with which Scotland does 75% of its trade. The Euro? No thanks! Then Germany controls our monetary policy! I've no doubt things would eventually stabilise but looking at Ireland's example, it's economy struggled for decades before prospering from around the late 90s onwards.

[Boris]

For me, this is a much more sensible, well informed and constructive contribution to the debate. You are on the opposite side from me, but good post, sir.

 

Being dispassionate, there is no doubt that the UK on the whole is increasingly remote from the Wesrminster bubble, the North of England as much as Scotland and pretty much anywhere outside the Southeast. My concerns are economic ones. The lack of clarity on currency being a big issue too. The big dicotomy is keep the pound and we don't control our monetary policy and are tied to someone else's interest rates. Set up our own currency and there would be some turbulence before it stabilised. We would then have currency fluctuations to muddy the waters of the trading relationship with rUK, with which Scotland does 75% of its trade. The Euro? No thanks! Then Germany controls our monetary policy! I've no doubt things would eventually stabilise but looking at Ireland's example, it's economy struggled for decades before prospering from around the late 90s onwards.

 

Very kind of you to say.  Thank you.

 

Regards currency, an Indy Scotland should set up its own one, IMO.  I certainly don't think that independnece is an immediate "cure".  It will be difficult and lots of hard work, but ultimately, I think worth it.

[Space Mackerel]

For me, this is a much more sensible, well informed and constructive contribution to the debate. You are on the opposite side from me, but good post, sir.

 

Being dispassionate, there is no doubt that the UK on the whole is increasingly remote from the Wesrminster bubble, the North of England as much as Scotland and pretty much anywhere outside the Southeast. My concerns are economic ones. The lack of clarity on currency being a big issue too. The big dicotomy is keep the pound and we don't control our monetary policy and are tied to someone else's interest rates. Set up our own currency and there would be some turbulence before it stabilised. We would then have currency fluctuations to muddy the waters of the trading relationship with rUK, with which Scotland does 75% of its trade. The Euro? No thanks! Then Germany controls our monetary policy! I've no doubt things would eventually stabilise but looking at Ireland's example, it's economy struggled for decades before prospering from around the late 90s onwards.

 

Glad you brought this up.

 

Ruth getting herself a bit crossed up for the umpteenth time.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/notice-of-rule-change/

[Thunderstruck]

While you are correct that the SNP's predictions about Oil prices were way off what actually came about, your statement there is unfair as the UK Gov and the oil industry predictions, while lower, were also way above the current price. So I don't think there was any deliberate deception.

There was to the extent that size of reservoir was quoted, not amount of recoverable oil. The retail value of the oil was also quoted, not the tax and royalty revenue.

 

It sounds much better when the public hears "trillions".

 

He knew exactly what he was saying and repeatedly refused to deal with the question when this was raised. Mind you, he managed to dodge most questions he was asked.

[Guest]

Or were there other benefits to being an Indpendent country that the people felt were more important?

Im kind of interested in this view.

 

I'm not nationalist in the slightest. I'll be honest the flag waving of being 'Scottish' means very little to me and I find it strange that it means so much to people.Whether I'm European, British or Scottish it means nothing as ultimately is just a label that doesn't effect anything in my life.

 

What I do care is what impacts me and my family. So that all pretty much stems from the economy and its success or otherwise. So any independence argument, for me needs to be on a sound economic case. Something which certainly wasn't made the last time.

 

Maybe it's me as the arguments I've seen have essentially been flag waving and economical. Is it improved governance and democracy? I've seen a lot of people say the argument for independence is greater than the economy. So what are the argument which are greater? (I won't be getting into a debate around just interested)

 

As an aside snp have shelved nothing, independence is there only policy. Every other policy is geared to making that happen. They will call another referendum the minute there is sustained majority for independence in the polls. Understanbly so.

[Boris]

Im kind of interested in this view.

 

I'm not nationalist in the slightest. I'll be honest the flag waving of being 'Scottish' means very little to me and I find it strange that it means so much to people.Whether I'm European, British or Scottish it means nothing as ultimately is just a label that doesn't effect anything in my life.

 

What I do care is what impacts me and my family. So that all pretty much stems from the economy and its success or otherwise. So any independence argument, for me needs to be on a sound economic case. Something which certainly wasn't made the last time.

 

Maybe it's me as the arguments I've seen have essentially been flag waving and economical. Is it improved governance and democracy? I've seen a lot of people say the argument for independence is greater than the economy. So what are the argument which are greater? (I won't be getting into a debate around just interested)

 

As an aside snp have shelved nothing, independence is there only policy. Every other policy is geared to making that happen. They will call another referendum the minute there is sustained majority for independence in the polls. Understanbly so.

 

For me at least, improved democracy could happen as a result of independence.

 

The way I see it, the economy is pretty shite at the moment anyway, Brexit may or may not worsen it.  I can't help but think that it will.  Independence won't cur eit overnight, but we could perhaps control/guide it better to our needs.

 

Aside from the economy though, I see our society crumbling a little bit and whilst there are worse places to live in the world, 21st Century Britain is giving me bad vibes.  

 

So if Westminster isn't going to do anything about it, they won't as they created it (imo) and by they I mean the Tory Party, Labour seem(ed) to want to replicate them, then to quote Orange Juice, let's "rip it up and start again".

[Guest]

For me at least, improved democracy could happen as a result of independence.

 

The way I see it, the economy is pretty shite at the moment anyway, Brexit may or may not worsen it. I can't help but think that it will. Independence won't cur eit overnight, but we could perhaps control/guide it better to our needs.

 

Aside from the economy though, I see our society crumbling a little bit and whilst there are worse places to live in the world, 21st Century Britain is giving me bad vibes.

 

So if Westminster isn't going to do anything about it, they won't as they created it (imo) and by they I mean the Tory Party, Labour seem(ed) to want to replicate them, then to quote Orange Juice, let's "rip it up and start again".

So no other arguments apart from economics and flag waving?

 

As an aside you sound like your getting old. 'Society crumbling' That's the tag line every older generations uses when they get to a certain age and nostalgia kicks in. I suspect your at that age if your point of reference orange juice lol.

[Boris]

So no other arguments apart from economics and flag waving?

 

As an aside you sound like your getting old. 'Society crumbling' That's the tag line every older generations uses when they get to a certain age and nostalgia kicks in. I suspect your at that age if your point of reference orange juice lol.

 

Democracy and societal restructuring/reinforcing?  Don't think I mentioned flag waving.

 

Obviously, though, from a Marxist perspective EVERYTHING is about the economy and the relationships within.

 

Getting old?  Hahaha, well, perhaps (45 years old) but that also means I've lived through a fair bit and I can't help but feel that our society has regressed somewhat, there doesn't seem to be any real feeling of the common good but rather a what's in it for me sort of culture.  Broadly speaking of course.

[JamboX2]

Spoken like a true Tory. [emoji106]

If anything I'm against Toryism. Toryism is to preserve what has existed for decades. Progressivism is about reform for the good of many.

 

Frankly, Scotland and Scottish public life needs brought into the 21st century. We need to embrace a 24 hour economy and put in place services for the many. Services which will intervene in people's lives to make a difference rather than perpetuating the errors of policy of the past.

[JamboX2]

Um...you remember the 1980's, pre-devolution and Thatcher?

 

Local Government, remember Lothian Regional Council? As well as the District Councils? NOt saying it is any better now, but there have been major changes.

 

All the investment things you mention are laudable, but no party is going to give you that - well, not as long as the purse strings are effectively controlled from Westminster. To get these, I'll stick my neck out and say only independence will give you any hope of delivering these. Not because the SNP will, but because a new country could start from scratch and prioritise how it wants to develop. IMO.

However, the likelihood of the purse strings being anymore open than they are now is again minimal. Scotland's politicians need to make the hard and tough choices rather than easy short term ones.

[aussieh]

If anything I'm against Toryism. Toryism is to preserve what has existed for decades. Progressivism is about reform for the good of many.

 

Frankly, Scotland and Scottish public life needs brought into the 21st century. We need to embrace a 24 hour economy and put in place services for the many. Services which will intervene in people's lives to make a difference rather than perpetuating the errors of policy of the past.

Why didn't they red or blue Tory, or is it the SNPs small reign to blame?

[Boris]

However, the likelihood of the purse strings being anymore open than they are now is again minimal. Scotland's politicians need to make the hard and tough choices rather than easy short term ones.

 

Indeed, but let us be masters of our own destiny?

[argyjambo]

The issue isn't about trolling though, it's about newspapers and their content.

Oh you mean like the Sunday Herald & the National......both fine publications providing balanced objective reporting.

[punkrockcroc]

Exactly, sadly he thinks New Labour are socialists. And he talks as if the SNP have been in power since the 70s, forgetting tory, red tory, tory rule since 79.

Thank feck for the SNP or this country would be proper fecked, the way Thatcher intended.

Is this true I'm not sure, was it not the SNP that voted with the tories back in 1979 that allowed the tories into power? Or am I the victim of a wind up?

[Space Mackerel]

Oh you mean like the Sunday Herald & the National......both fine publications providing balanced objective reporting.

 

Oh, not a fan of balanced media or alternate news views?

 

Happy to suck up the nonsense spouted from London centric media and their Tory party donating owners?

[Boris]

Is this true I'm not sure, was it not the SNP that voted with the tories back in 1979 that allowed the tories into power? Or am I the victim of a wind up?

 

Wind up.

 

Certainly the SNP voted against the minority Labour Govt in 1979 in a vote of no confidence.  The Tories won the resulting election.

 

But that can't be blamed on the SNP.  To do so is entirely churlish.

[aussieh]

Is this true I'm not sure, was it not the SNP that voted with the tories back in 1979 that allowed the tories into power? Or am I the victim of a wind up?

Check out why the SNP pulled their support for a minority Labour government. They reneged on a Yes vote for Scottish devolution but us being labour believed for decades that the SNP were tartan Tories who ushered in Thatcher.

[Space Mackerel]

Wind up.

 

Certainly the SNP voted against the minority Labour Govt in 1979 in a vote of no confidence.  The Tories won the resulting election.

 

But that can't be blamed on the SNP.  To do so is entirely churlish.

 

And the SNP were guaranteed the first referendum on Home Rule as a result I thought by supporting the Tories?

[Thunderstruck]

And the SNP were guaranteed the first referendum on Home Rule as a result I thought by supporting the Tories?

How did that work if the Referendum was on 1 March 1979 and the Conservatives came to power on 3 May 1979?

[punkrockcroc]

Check out why the SNP pulled their support for a minority Labour government. They reneged on a Yes vote for Scottish devolution but us being labour believed for decades that the SNP were tartan Tories who ushered in Thatcher.

So by default the SNP allowed the tories into power and gave us the start of what we know as Thatcherism, it's about time Sturgeon moved on and stopped fighting the '80's war. After all for those of us who are old enough to remember that decade it was not a pleasant time.

[Space Mackerel]

How did that work if the Referendum was on 1 March 1979 and the Conservatives came to power on 3 May 1979?

 

I was asking the question you stupid boy, hence the ? at the end of my post. 

[Sraman]

So by default the SNP allowed the tories into power and gave us the start of what we know as Thatcherism, it's about time Sturgeon moved on and stopped fighting the '80's war. After all for those of us who are old enough to remember that decade it was not a pleasant time.

 

 

No. By default Labour shafted themselves.

[punkrockcroc]

No, by there actions in government and then in opposition, the Labour Party gave us 18 years of Tory rule.

 

The SNP's hand was forced.

That's just typical of the SNP blame somebody else.

[Boris]

That's just typical of the SNP blame somebody else.

 

Blimey.

 

Of course it was the SNP's fault that the UK elected a Tory Government.

 

Nothing todo with the Winter of Discontent, spiralling unemployment, general economic and industrial malaise, industrial relations at a low ebb, all under a Labour Government.  It was the SNP's fault Thatcher had to fight and win an election.  An election that the SNP lost 9 of its 11 seats in.

 

It was their fault, right enough.

[Thunderstruck]

I was asking the question you stupid boy, hence the ? at the end of my post.

And I was responding with an interrogative sentence.

 

You really are an angry chappie and the art of winning friends and influencing people seems to be alien to you.

 

This at a time when your Dear Leader is supposed to be engaged in a Charm Offensive.

[aussieh]

And I was responding with an interrogative sentence.

 

You really are an angry chappie and the art of winning friends and influencing people seems to be alien to you.

 

This at a time when your Dear Leader is supposed to be engaged in a Charm Offensive.

Aye, but see also knows some are a lost cause, and there'snae point trying to polish a turd.

[punkrockcroc]

I'm not the SNP, you appear to know more about this than you first let on.  You can blame the SNP for Thatcher all you want, Labour did very successfully for a very long time, but like them you would be wrong.

I'm not Labour BTW.

[Thunderstruck]

Aye, but see also knows some are a lost cause, and there'snae point trying to polish a turd.

I'll bow to your experience in polishing turds.

[Space Mackerel]

And I was responding with an interrogative sentence.

 

You really are an angry chappie and the art of winning friends and influencing people seems to be alien to you.

 

This at a time when your Dear Leader is supposed to be engaged in a Charm Offensive.

I was actually asking Boris, he's brainier and more politically aware than the combined Unionist nut jobs present in here.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Aw naw!

 

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/More-affordable-housing-approved-2acd.aspx

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Gorgiewave]

Aw naw!

 

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/More-affordable-housing-approved-2acd.aspx

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

So, if they can do that in the Union, why the need for independence?

[Arnold Rothstein]

I was actually asking Boris, he's brainier and more politically aware than the combined Unionist nut jobs present in here.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You have an incredibly aggressive posting style. Very angry. Most people on this thread while maybe not agreeing with each other's views seem to at least respect them. You and aussie however are absolutely mental.

[Thunderstruck]

Aw naw!

 

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/More-affordable-housing-approved-2acd.aspx

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And, the ?3bn comes from where exactly?