New Lows!

[IMA MAROON]

God Save The Queen has a line about "crushing rebellious Scots" - that's ok, is it?

 

The Jaco's were crushed.

[Tom Heaney]

so what are the other choices bob? lets have a list of other choices.

 

i say either go and put up with it or don`t go.

 

enlighten me. what are the other options. also can you answer the points in my other post (aimed at you). the one where i answered your two questions on bigoted and child abuse songs.

John, he obviously feels pretty strongly about it and to be fair he could always be the martyr for HIS club and go make a point at Darkheid next time and take it up with the offenders and see how it goes. Bumping his gums on here aint gonna solve the problem but maybe a reasoned debate with those who do step out of line just may work, but then again maybe not. But if he feels so strongly he should give it a wee go.

 

Mind you it aint just Sellick Park we have had this issue I seem to remember Coffeegate a couple of years back at Killie, so it aint just the daytrippers to Glasgow that are spoiling it for him.

 

Maybe a wee copy of the clubs charter and a behaviour guide for away fans might help us all

[2NaFish]

Anyone?

 

Not necessarily. Its a rather monochromatic view of history to suggest that 'king edward's army' was an english army. I'd suggest it was, like most medieval armies (and especially Norman/Angevin/Plantagenet kings) a north european affair. I dont know the wars particularly well, but i'm certain there were welsh archers (there always were) and irish footmen. Beyond that it would be a very odd medieval english army that didnt feature nobles based primarily in Northern France and mercenaries from Flanders, Germany, Scandinavia all the way down to Italy. Beyond that there were undoubtedly scots who will have fought with edward II, and there will have been people who we would now class as enlgish who fought for 'the scots' due to the fluid nature of the border at the time.

 

So no, flower of scotland is not about 'killing englishmen'; it is about defeating the armies of the king of england.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

We are in agreement then, When I see kids waving Union Flags and giving red hand salutes it makes me cringe, The older guys are even worse!

 

I suppose since I've seen this kind of thing go on at Hearts for years now I've learned to ignore/accept it. Its the same crap every year and nothing really changes, The club says its stamping sectarian singing out but nothing is ever done.

 

I think broadly we are in agreement Shanks.

 

Willing to bet that the massively larger percentage of these young lads will grow up in to normal and decent human beings but there will always be a small percentage left that will grow up -if that is the word- into the old drum beaters that waffle a load of pish to the new batch in the boozer and get them all fired up to carry on the mantle. sad but true.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

The Jaco's were crushed.

 

The Jacobites were not just "scots" and "scots" are not all defined as Jacobites.

 

Ridiculous comment.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Flower of Scotland, whilst a bit of a dirge, is about Scotland re-discovering its inherent right to self-determination in the face of foreign oppression. Nobody could seriously claim it's a "song about killing English people" unless they have a rather acute and perverse sense of Scottish cringe.

 

Exactly.

[Boab]

Flower of Scotland, whilst a bit of a dirge, is about Scotland re-discovering its inherent right to self-determination in the face of foreign oppression. Nobody could seriously claim it's a "song about killing English people" unless they have a rather acute and perverse sense of Scottish cringe.

 

Here we go.....!

Scotland...Ireland.....thread closed!

[johnjl]

Firstly, in answer to your previous questions firstly I am not easily offended, secondly I find any songs which relate to race, religion, sexual preferences, the death of individuals/groups etc and child sexual abuse abhorrent.

 

I provided a third option which I will for your benefit repeat...

 

I hate Celtic and Rangers with a passion.

 

I want to watch Hearts playing against them.

 

I want to challenge individuals and Hearts about the behaviour of others who embarrass the club and potentially damage the club whilst I carry on watching matches.

 

I think Hearts want that too as they make very clear statements in the programme and by loudspeaker about behaviour, there are some who obviously think the club are not talking to them, you seem to be one!

 

Quick Quiz: Why Do The Club Do This?

 

is it a) because they are short of advertisers in the programme and have a space to fill Scott Wilson doesn't have enough tunes to play or c) because they want fans to behave because bad behaviour is potentially damaging in many ways

 

I am sure you think it is either a) or but you are not quite sure because c) would unfortunately mean that you/others might be doing/condoning something that damages the club you say you love!

 

PS It's not a real quiz!

 

despite you continually talking to me as if i am some sort of idiot, bob, i will once again resist the temptation to reply in a similar manner.

 

you are challenging the behaviour of hearts supporters by doing what? are you honestly naive enough to think starting a thread on here (a thread which is posted every time we play celtic and often when we play rangers or hibs)is challenging anyone?

 

do you reckon all the wee neds are sitting thinking "you know what he is quote right, next time i`m going to stick to the hearts song"

 

back in the real world there are two choices

 

1/ don`t go to parkhead

 

2/ put up with the bigotry and other nonsense that always happens when hearts play there.

 

oh aye, and the answer to your quiz, bob, is - because they have to. i know you think you had all the bases covered there but if hearts were serious about stamping out racism and bigotry they would have been escorting half the rangers support out of the ground when they started singing about rudi being a refugee.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Here we go.....!

Scotland...Ireland.....thread closed!

 

Probably for the best...

[Boab]

Probably

for the best...

 

Aye maybe,mate.Same after every Parkhead game.It will raise it's head again soon no doubt.Now....St Johnstone!

[Shanks]

I think broadly we are in agreement Shanks.

 

Willing to bet that the massively larger percentage of these young lads will grow up in to normal and decent human beings but there will always be a small percentage left that will grow up -if that is the word- into the old drum beaters that waffle a load of pish to the new batch in the boozer and get them all fired up to carry on the mantle. sad but true.

 

 

Passing the tea towel down from one generation to the next.

[bobskeldon]

John, he obviously feels pretty strongly about it and to be fair he could always be the martyr for HIS club and go make a point at Darkheid next time and take it up with the offenders and see how it goes. Bumping his gums on here aint gonna solve the problem but maybe a reasoned debate with those who do step out of line just may work, but then again maybe not. But if he feels so strongly he should give it a wee go.

 

Mind you it aint just Sellick Park we have had this issue I seem to remember Coffeegate a couple of years back at Killie, so it aint just the daytrippers to Glasgow that are spoiling it for him.

 

Maybe a wee copy of the clubs charter and a behaviour guide for away fans might help us all

 

 

Thanks for your advice.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Passing the tea towel down from one generation to the next.

 

 

Lending a (red)hand to the young uns.

 

I picture some of them like that fat guy from 'The Football factory'. Best part is, they'd probably take that as a huge compliment!

[bobskeldon]

despite you continually talking to me as if i am some sort of idiot, bob, i will once again resist the temptation to reply in a similar manner.

 

you are challenging the behaviour of hearts supporters by doing what? are you honestly naive enough to think starting a thread on here (a thread which is posted every time we play celtic and often when we play rangers or hibs)is challenging anyone?

 

do you reckon all the wee neds are sitting thinking "you know what he is quote right, next time i`m going to stick to the hearts song"

 

back in the real world there are two choices

 

1/ don`t go to parkhead

 

2/ put up with the bigotry and other nonsense that always happens when hearts play there.

 

oh aye, and the answer to your quiz, bob, is - because they have to. i know you think you had all the bases covered there but if hearts were serious about stamping out racism and bigotry they would have been escorting half the rangers support out of the ground when they started singing about rudi being a refugee.

 

Unfortunately, wrong again. Firstly, I have written to Hearts this morning requesting that they take responsibility for their support. This can be done by identifying fans at away games who sing 'banned' and unacceptable songs and ban them from Tynecastle and other grounds. Do not wait for the SFA etc

 

Secondly, it is not Hearts who decide to eject/not eject away fans it is L& B police.

 

I actually think Hearts as a modern institution DO want to stamp out bigotry, racism etc, I am disappointed that you think their stance is purely because they have to say it.

[johnjl]

Sorry john but thats shite. We should be bigger and better than that. I've never EVER been tempted to pipe up with the sash or any other sectarian number because they've been singing "up the 'RA" or some other folk song that that lot sing and I'm certain that I am not alone in that.

 

It's funny how the worst element of our support is only ever at Celtic games. Butter it up all you want john but the fact of the matter is there are absolute bigots amongst our support who love going to parkhead and getting their rocks off calling them all the fenians under the sun.

 

It's pathetic to suggest that it's Celtic's fault that they come out with their bile.

 

wwwwwooooooooah! ross. i never said it was celtics fault i said they bring out the worst element of the hearts support and the two issues are definitely linked which is undoubtedly true.

 

you say we should be bigger and better than that but tbh we never have been (not at parkhead anyway) so why on earth would anyone just expect things to be different?

[Tom Heaney]

What a totally ridiculous question. Are you really suggesting that the only choice is to go and ignore or not go at all? What about the opportunity to go, enjoy the football, HATE Celtic as I do BUT challenge unacceptable behaviour.

 

Without giving us a "YAWN" as your answer, did you do this last night ?

 

Cmon Mothy, For as long as I can remember anyway! Just for the record I dont join in with the songs anymore but I did when I was younger and I guarantee alot of people who are now outraged were just the same as me!

Add me to your list Mr Longshank, Hearts scarf, red hand of ulster badges, the sash etc etc, All part of my youth. Was it clever ? yup it was at the time, on hindsight is it clever? Not a chance in hell. But I'll tell you what, I'm not ashamed.

 

The OP tells us he "hates" Celtic, isnt hate a form of bigotry ?

[rossthejambo]

wwwwwooooooooah! ross. i never said it was celtics fault i said they bring out the worst element of the hearts support and the two issues are definitely linked which is undoubtedly true.

 

you say we should be bigger and better than that but tbh we never have been (not at parkhead anyway) so why on earth would anyone just expect things to be different?

 

That particular line wasn't really aimed at you John, apologies if it came across that way. Was more aimed at the cretins that sing those songs who come out with that excuse.

[jambonian]

i happily joined in the songs such as 'you're only here for the ball boys' and 'you only sing when you're beastin'. i found them extremely humorous as did the 99% of our support that joined in.

 

as for britannia ruling the waves, is that not factual?

If you want to sing rule britannia and other such ditties then go get a season ticket for Hunbrox!

[bobskeldon]

wwwwwooooooooah! ross. i never said it was celtics fault i said they bring out the worst element of the hearts support and the two issues are definitely linked which is undoubtedly true.

 

you say we should be bigger and better than that but tbh we never have been (not at parkhead anyway) so why on earth would anyone just expect things to be different?

 

 

You have indeed just done what Ross said by stating "they bring out the worst element" This is excusing behaviour by implying that it is a secondary offence which would not happen if they hadn't done it first! Juvenile rationale!

[johnjl]

Unfortunately, wrong again. Firstly, I have written to Hearts this morning requesting that they take responsibility for their support. This can be done by identifying fans at away games who sing 'banned' and unacceptable songs and ban them from Tynecastle and other grounds. Do not wait for the SFA etc

 

Secondly, it is not Hearts who decide to eject/not eject away fans it is L& B police.

 

I actually think Hearts as a modern institution DO want to stamp out bigotry, racism etc, I am disappointed that you think their stance is purely because they have to say it.

 

so you are telling me now hearts, who employ an army of stewards to police the ground can`t instruct those stewards to eject troublemakers in the away end or that hearts can`t ask the police to enforce the laws od "racist breach of the peace."

 

naive again bob.

 

one thing i do find admirable though is you have actually written to the club and asked them to do something about it. i personally doubt whether you will get anything more back than lip service but a step in the right direction nonetheless.

 

until scottish football stamps out bigotry and other unacceptable behaviour as a whole nothing will change. unfortunately this would mean tackling the "big two" head on so nothing will change.

[jamboinglasgow]

ur awrite pal, cousins an awwrat big man.

 

Took a taxi to Celtic park, moment taxi driver who was a Celtic fan realised we were Hearts fans he called us cousins of William.

[bobskeldon]

Without giving us a "YAWN" as your answer, did you do this last night ?

 

 

Add me to your list Mr Longshank, Hearts scarf, red hand of ulster badges, the sash etc etc, All part of my youth. Was it clever ? yup it was at the time, on hindsight is it clever? Not a chance in hell. But I'll tell you what, I'm not ashamed.

 

The OP tells us he "hates" Celtic, isnt hate a form of bigotry ?

 

 

No! I hate many things including Celtic but my hatred of Celtic is 100% due to football matters and 0% to do with their history, religious preferences etc. What a ridiculous assumption!

[johnjl]

You have indeed just done what Ross said by stating "they bring out the worst element" This is excusing behaviour by implying that it is a secondary offence which would not happen if they hadn't done it first! Juvenile rationale!

 

bob please stop changing what i am saying to suit your own arguement. i am not excusing anyones behaviour i am stating a fact. the celtic away match brings out the element of hearts supporters you feel so disgusted by. rule brittania won`t be sang at the st johnstone game on saturday or at pittodrie in a few weeks and probably wont be heard till the next celtic match.

 

not juvenile rationale bob just hard facts.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, wrong again. Firstly, I have written to Hearts this morning requesting that they take responsibility for their support. This can be done by identifying fans at away games who sing 'banned' and unacceptable songs and ban them from Tynecastle and other grounds. Do not wait for the SFA etc

 

Secondly, it is not Hearts who decide to eject/not eject away fans it is L& B police.

 

I actually think Hearts as a modern institution DO want to stamp out bigotry, racism etc, I am disappointed that you think their stance purely because they have to say it.

People like you get right on my tits!whats it got to do with you who gets into games or not?you wouldve had the dunbar end emptied at easter rd last time then as me and almost everyone else i saw gave plenty that you or your pals could take photos of and report!

[lewis2006]

I like many others who attended Parkhead last night joined in the singing of Rule Britannia.

 

I am not a protestant, I would not call myself a proud "Brit", I do not support or love Glasgow Rangers FC.

 

I do how ever love ANY excuse to wind those terrorist loving slimeballs up. And judging by the amount of rage filled posts that popped up on my facebook last night it seemed to have worked.

 

Regardless of what anyone's ideal wish for a "modern" Hearts FC is you have to remember we have always been a largely protestant supported club dating back to when my dad used to go to the games and his dad before him. This is fact.

[johnjl]

That particular line wasn't really aimed at you John, apologies if it came across that way. Was more aimed at the cretins that sing those songs who come out with that excuse.

 

all good dude. i guess what i`m getting at with a lot oif what i`m saying is when people go to parkhead to see us play they must know by now what it will be like. i just don`t understand why every time we play them people go along and expect things to be somehow different and then come on here being all outraged?

 

what is the point? if it offends you so much just don`t go. if you do decide to go you`re just going to have to put up with it.

[topcat]

Not so sure I get that bit

 

 

Check your passport!

[Tom Heaney]

No! I hate many things including Celtic but my hatred of Celtic is 100% due to football matters and 0% to do with their history, religious preferences etc. What a ridiculous assumption!

Bob, What did I assume ? What I did do was ask if hate was a form of bigotry. No assumptions there

[rossthejambo]

WELL STUFF YOU IM GONNA TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND in this country we have freedom of speeach i will sing what ever song i want to sing if you dont like it get to ***k GLASGOW CELTIC AND RANGERS ARE BOTH vermin and by the sound of u ur vermin aswell

 

A very mature response as usual

[NewYorkJambo]

Did you confront the individuals at the time?

 

 

Retorts like this are very tiresome. Anybody who thinks confronting people like this is a good idea needs their head read

[rossthejambo]

I like many others who attended Parkhead last night joined in the singing of Rule Britannia.

 

I am not a protestant, I would not call myself a proud "Brit", I do not support or love Glasgow Rangers FC.

 

I do how ever love ANY excuse to wind those terrorist loving slimeballs up. And judging by the amount of rage filled posts that popped up on my facebook last night it seemed to have worked.

 

Regardless of what anyone's ideal wish for a "modern" Hearts FC is you have to remember we have always been a largely protestant supported club dating back to when my dad used to go to the games and his dad before him. This is fact.

 

Ah so you sung a song that is sung weekly by Rangers fans to wind up Celtic fans? I take it you joined in with other witty folk songs to get it right up them as well? What a great fan you are.

 

I've said it already but I'll say it again, spending 90 minutes singing Hearts songs would wind that shower of shite up more than singing Rangers dittys.

 

As for your last paragraph

 

all good dude. i guess what i`m getting at with a lot oif what i`m saying is when people go to parkhead to see us play they must know by now what it will be like. i just don`t understand why every time we play them people go along and expect things to be somehow different and then come on here being all outraged?

 

what is the point? if it offends you so much just don`t go. if you do decide to go you`re just going to have to put up with it.

 

I see your point but I don't see why people should have to put up with the bile.

[jamboinglasgow]

No! I hate many things including Celtic but my hatred of Celtic is 100% due to football matters and 0% to do with their history, religious preferences etc. What a ridiculous assumption!

 

Thing is they could still have a go at Celtic without resorting to the awful songs that were sung, Celtic (and Rangers) have ruined Scottish football. How about songs of "old firm gtf" (which would wind up Celtic fans as they think the term old firm is unfair on them.) Or "where were u when Celtic were poor." Or (if someone can do this better) rangers and Celtic, best of friends, screwing Scottish football..."

[BoJack Horseman]

There are a fair amount of strokers in this thread.

[williamgerrard]

Well ross its getting very boring on here with a few guys who dont like some songs and to be honest shit happens i aint a hun im a jambo i hate rangers more than celtic but when i go to parkhead i will sing songs that will offend them as there song offend me but by the way some are going on WE SHOULD BAN THESE SONGS AS THE COULD BE CLASSED AS RACIST hullo hullo hibees are gay calling players beasts ie goodwillie,mcgregor grant stot n etc seriously some people on here have to get back to the real life

[jambonian]

Its called winding the rival fans up mate and belive it or not songs we sing at parkhead really winds them up some people just need to relise they songs only get sung to wind the celtic fans up its like when both the oldfirm come to tynie they sing sectarian songs all the time and get away with it im no saying its the best way to act but its does the trick as it really winds them up its called creating a atompshere but if you dont like the songs its simple go and follow golf or some other sport where you wont be offened

But what folk like you don't get is that their fans for some braindead reason think that we're not really Hearts fans but Rangers fans in disguise, that piz's me off more than any stupid songs they sing or Rangers sing for that matter. By singing Britannia as a Hearts fan your just confirming what they already think and if it was just to wind them up, why don't fans of other clibs sing it also? I'll tell you why... they don't want to be a part of all that garbage that's why!. I've never been back to Parkhead since 1990 and Ibrox since 1988, i'll never go back to these god-awful places ever again, their fans are disgusting, i don't even speak to fans of these two clubs if they're in the same holiday resort as me, i totally blank them and always will, half of them probably don't come from Glazgae either!

[Stanley_]

I'm looking forward to us singing Dundee songs on Saturday to wind up the opposition fans.

[Sterling Archer]

I like many others who attended Parkhead last night joined in the singing of Rule Britannia.

 

I am not a protestant, I would not call myself a proud "Brit", I do not support or love Glasgow Rangers FC.

 

I do how ever love ANY excuse to wind those terrorist loving slimeballs up. And judging by the amount of rage filled posts that popped up on my facebook last night it seemed to have worked.

 

Regardless of what anyone's ideal wish for a "modern" Hearts FC is you have to remember we have always been a largely protestant supported club dating back to when my dad used to go to the games and his dad before him. This is fact.

 

So you'll be singing ooh ah up the ra and other such things next time your at ibrox? Yes or no and why?

[rossthejambo]

Well ross its getting very boring on here with a few guys who dont like some songs and to be honest shit happens i aint a hun im a jambo i hate rangers more than celtic but when i go to parkhead i will sing songs that will offend them as there song offend me but by the way some are going on WE SHOULD BAN THESE SONGS ASE THE COULD BE CLASSED AS RACIST hullo hullo hibees are gay calling players beasts ie goodwillie,mcgregor grant stot n etc seriously some people on here have to get back to the real life

 

No-one's ever used the word racist on this thread.

 

And BTW, a full stop is a friend, not an enemy.

[bobskeldon]

People like you get right on my tits!whats it got to do with you who gets into games or not?you wouldve had the dunbar end emptied at easter rd last time then as me and almost everyone else i saw gave plenty that you or your pals could take photos of and report!

 

 

I suggest if you are so proud of what you do in the Dunbar end you should 'own' it, a start might be by using your full name on JKB! I will give a start...My Name is 'insert real name' and I like singing sectarian songs and/or songs about child sexual abuse and/or people dying etc etc etc

 

 

Having a 'alias' means you can say whatever you want and nobody knows! If your views are so reasonable why not shout them from the rooftops so that everyone will know how reasonable a guy you really are?

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I'm looking forward to us singing Dundee songs on Saturday to wind up the opposition fans.

 

Nah... Just sing about marrying out of towners... That'll piss them off no end.

[bobskeldon]

WELL STUFF YOU IM GONNA TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND in this country we have freedom of speeach i will sing what ever song i want to sing if you dont like it get to ***k GLASGOW CELTIC AND RANGERS ARE BOTH vermin and by the sound of u ur vermin aswell

 

 

YOUR HONOUR! THE DEFENCE DOES INDEED REST IT'S CASE!

[johnjl]

 

I see your point but I don't see why people should have to put up with the bile.

 

 

 

because there is no alternative.

[Say What Again]

WELL STUFF YOU IM GONNA TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND in this country we have freedom of speeach i will sing what ever song i want to sing if you dont like it get to ***k GLASGOW CELTIC AND RANGERS ARE BOTH vermin and by the sound of u ur vermin aswell

:rofl: :rofl:

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

The over use of capital letters is making me seethe.

[bobskeldon]

I like many others who attended Parkhead last night joined in the singing of Rule Britannia.

 

I am not a protestant, I would not call myself a proud "Brit", I do not support or love Glasgow Rangers FC.

 

I do how ever love ANY excuse to wind those terrorist loving slimeballs up. And judging by the amount of rage filled posts that popped up on my facebook last night it seemed to have worked.

 

Regardless of what anyone's ideal wish for a "modern" Hearts FC is you have to remember we have always been a largely protestant supported club dating back to when my dad used to go to the games and his dad before him. This is fact.

 

 

Sorry to disappoint but that is actually only an opinion!

[bobskeldon]

Bob, What did I assume ? What I did do was ask if hate was a form of bigotry. No assumptions there

 

 

Do you think hate is a form of bigotry?

[lewis2006]

So you'll be singing ooh ah up the ra and other such things next time your at ibrox? Yes or no and why?

 

No i'll not as I dont support terrorism and as hard as it will be for some to believe actually had family injured in the Omagh bombing.

 

I will however sing other various ditties to wind them up the next time they visit Tynecastle.

 

Now if you'd like to remind me what part of Rule Brittania glorifies terrorism?

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Who's winning?

[williamgerrard]

But what folk like you don't get is that their fans for some braindead reason think that we're not really Hearts fans but Rangers fans in disguise, that piz's me off more than any stupid songs they sing or Rangers sing for that matter. By singing Britannia as a Hearts fan your just confirming what they already think and if it was just to wind them up, why don't fans of other clibs sing it also? I'll tell you why... they don't want to be a part of all that garbage that's why!. I've never been back to Parkhead since 1990 and Ibrox since 1988, i'll never go back to these god-awful places ever again, their fans are disgusting, i don't even speak to fans of these two clubs if they're in the same holiday resort as me, i totally blank them and always will, half of them probably don't come from Glazgae either!

 

 

 

 

Yea i do know what u mean but when scotland play international games no1 bothers about us boing the britsh anthem or singing abusive songs towards england.The fact is i aint gonna lie i hate everything about celtic and rangers but no matter what people say on here if i heard 59k celtic fans hurling abuse at our fans of course im gonna sing abuse back if some of our fans cant handle the heat they should stay away FACT is most of the fans where singing abuse at celtic last nite and they aint part time fans as i see them at every away game i go to its just the fact when ur at parkhead its a hostile place and our fans react to it .1 other point when celtic last came to tynie what about there songs ie shove ur poppy up ur ase and destroyin our cattering stands and fighting with the cops sorry hearts vs celtic games will always have a hostile atmosphere if you dont like it simply dont go there

[Boab]

so you are telling me now hearts, who employ an army of stewards to police the ground can`t instruct those stewards to eject troublemakers in the away end or that hearts can`t ask the police to enforce the laws od "racist breach of the peace."

 

naive again bob.

 

one thing i do find admirable though is you have actually written to the club and asked them to do something about it. i personally doubt whether you will get anything more back than lip service but a step in the right direction nonetheless.

 

until scottish football stamps out bigotry and other unacceptable behaviour as a whole nothing will change. unfortunately this would mean tackling the "big two" head on so nothing will change.

 

The last paragraph is absolutely spot on.People may argue about getting your own house in order etc and there is nothing wrong in that but the above is vital if the authorities are sreious.I think you've won this one on points,John.Good debate mind,good reading.