Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jack D and coke]

8 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I knew you were from good stock. 😊

 

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, pablo said:

As I said yesterday, and it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that all the independence movement is, is an anti Conservative party movement. 

 

And it's still nonsense that does your credibility no favours.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Boab said:

Sorry, again, I disagree.

I'm at a loss as to why, in the situation we are in now, there isn't more protests going on.

And I mean big, **** off ones !

Not at a complete loss you understand. The art of protest has been curtailed over the last couple of decades. The media, of course, play a part in that. 

There are rallies planned for next month through the STUC so hopefully they are well attended...and reported..the same way a few bams are reported at a drop of a hat !

 

This. Tell you what, there'll be some amount of tutting when the temperatures drop, the bills skyrocket, and people properly take to protesting.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

And it's still nonsense that does your credibility no favours.

For people on the outside looking in Smithee it maybe how it comes across?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

For people on the outside looking in Smithee it maybe how it comes across?

 

Maybe, but it's still absolute pish.

[Unknown user]

It's just non stop.

 

Any reason they can think of to put down the desire for self governance.

 

"They're just anti Tories!"

"They actually shouted!"

"They're racist!"

 

Piss off, we want the Scottish electorate deciding Scotland's national government, end of story.

 

Next:

"He said piss!!"

[Boab]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

This. Tell you what, there'll be some amount of tutting when the temperatures drop, the bills skyrocket, and people properly take to protesting.

The reaction to the other night will tell you exactly how much tutting will go on !

[manaliveits105]

oh  the smurfs are falling apart again 

[Unknown user]

26 minutes ago, jonesy said:

You seem upset pal. Chill. If its that self-evident how Scotland needs to run its own affairs then the Yes side will skoosh the proposed indyref.

 

Anti Tory

Racist

Abusive

And now upset

 

Feel free to make a strong argument for the union, whenever you're ready!

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Feel free to make a strong argument for the union, whenever you're ready!

Funnily enough the First Minister was asking the same question on SKY yesterday

 

 

[Unknown user]

21 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Funnily enough the First Minister was asking the same question on SKY yesterday

 

 

 

Yeah, but she seems upset, and they did a swear, and they're racist, and it's all because they hate the Tories.

[pablo]

The Scottish people did decide only 8 years ago. That was the democracy.

 

It's not happening, not next year - not ever.

[Boab]

Well, I'm calling a truce until after the game !

Hope we don't get beat !

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 hours ago, jonesy said:

Just checking...

 

T as in Tory, not Trans...? 😜 

Do not mention that word in Judys palace 😎😂

Edited August 18, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Funnily enough the First Minister was asking the same question on SKY yesterday

 

 

I wouldn’t have said Sturgeon has made a good case for independence either. All she does is repeat the phrase ‘self-diterminashun’ - mainly because the SNP’s governing is extremely mediocre so she can’t really get hung up on detail.

 

I’m presuming she won’t be predicating the whole thing on oil again. 

[The Mighty Thor]

18 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I wouldn’t have said Sturgeon has made a good case for independence either. All she does is repeat the phrase ‘self-diterminashun’ - mainly because the SNP’s governing is extremely mediocre so she can’t really get hung up on detail.

 

I’m presuming she won’t be predicating the whole thing on oil again. 

Im sure the SNP published a whote paper last time and the pro-union side published er........

 

What's the benchmark for extremely mediocre? Compared to whom or what?

 

I'm sure Sir Ian Wood will be along to tell us all how Scotlands natural resources are worthless to us sweaties. 

 

[Weakened Offender]

11 hours ago, jonesy said:

That was good, targeted protest (although ultimately cost people a lot of money through arresting of wages, sadly).

 

 

Better than costing them their vote, which was the main intention of that particular Tory policy. 

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I wouldn’t have said Sturgeon has made a good case for independence either. All she does is repeat the phrase ‘self-diterminashun’ - mainly because the SNP’s governing is extremely mediocre so she can’t really get hung up on detail.

 

I’m presuming she won’t be predicating the whole thing on oil again. 

8 years on and still no answers - just Krankie mouthing off 

snp are clueless erseholes 

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I wouldn’t have said Sturgeon has made a good case for independence either. All she does is repeat the phrase ‘self-diterminashun’ - mainly because the SNP’s governing is extremely mediocre so she can’t really get hung up on detail.

 

I’m presuming she won’t be predicating the whole thing on oil again. 

🤣😅😅😂🤣

 

She doesn't make the case , the SNP was established nearly a century ago to campaign for it.

 

So, let's get Indy done and get rid of NS.

 

PS "oil" .

 😅😂🤣

 

[periodictabledancer]

6 hours ago, pablo said:

The Scottish people did decide only 8 years ago. That was the democracy.

 

It's not happening, not next year - not ever.

It is. 

There's going to be a THIRD  referendum or there will be a plebiscite.

It's happening. 👍

[manaliveits105]

8 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

It is. 

There's going to be a THIRD  referendum or there will be a plebiscite.

It's happening. 👍

[Ainsley Harriott]

Oh dear. No positive economic case for independence 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/star-snp-economist-fails-to-find-the-positive-case-for-independence

 

 

 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Oh dear. No positive economic case for independence 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/star-snp-economist-fails-to-find-the-positive-case-for-independence

 

 

 

 

 

 Maybe our jkb “economic experts “ could put this economics professor right 

- snp have hibsed it again 

 

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

 Maybe our jkb “economic experts “ could put this economics professor right 

- snp have hibsed it again 

 

 

I'm sure they will be along to call me House Jock and a Troll any moment now.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Ainsley Harriott

[Shooter McGavin]

4 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Oh dear. No positive economic case for independence 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/star-snp-economist-fails-to-find-the-positive-case-for-independence

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t know if you read that article or just pasted the link as soon as you read the headline, but I found this part rather interesting:

 

“Blyth argued that even with all those downsides he is still in favour of Scottish independence because the UK economy, with London acting as a cash cow for the rest of the country, is not fit for purpose.”

 

Certainly an interesting article though, and plenty to digest from it.

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I don’t know if you read that article or just pasted the link as soon as you read the headline, but I found this part rather interesting:

 

“Blyth argued that even with all those downsides he is still in favour of Scottish independence because the UK economy, with London acting as a cash cow for the rest of the country, is not fit for purpose.”

 

Certainly an interesting article though, and plenty to digest from it.

Aw! Hunting for bites fail 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Konrad von Carstein

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Interesting read (with a slant that aligns with the Spectator's viewpoints, of course). Kind of explains to the more die hard indy fans just why those who dislike the Tories and may not even be fans of the Union would still be hesitant to vote yes.

 

What some people wish to see as a simple black or white decision may well have ramifications that massively alter the trajectory of the lives of so many, some as yet unborn. 

 

A few days ago @Smithee asked for reasons to stay in the union. One of the main reasons is that the alternative could be much worse. Its crap enough that I can't work in Europe easily anymore. I'd be even more pissed off if my kids can't work in Manchester or London, for example. Like it or not, we have a long common history with the peculiar place on the other side of Hadrian's Wall, and the benefits that that the current setup brings - including the economic and educational opportunities that provides for many Scots - outweighs the Rumsfeldian unknown unknowns of going it alone.

Jeezo man, educational opportunities in 27 countries were ripped from your kids hands as well as the opportunity to live and work on those same countries.

I think I'm right in opining that joining the single market would reinstate these huge benefits which may be easier to achieve than full EU membership.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Konrad von Carstein

[Konrad von Carstein]

19 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Fair point. I'd still like to see something concrete before taking another leap into the unknown. Brexit has been a disaster, and there's nothing, as yet, to suggest that Scexit (we need a better word than that) would be any better.

ExBrit 

 

[Boab]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Fair point. I'd still like to see something concrete before taking another leap into the unknown. Brexit has been a disaster, and there's nothing, as yet, to suggest that Scexit (we need a better word than that) would be any better.

Wuroot !

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

Interesting read (with a slant that aligns with the Spectator's viewpoints, of course). Kind of explains to the more die hard indy fans just why those who dislike the Tories and may not even be fans of the Union would still be hesitant to vote yes.

 

What some people wish to see as a simple black or white decision may well have ramifications that massively alter the trajectory of the lives of so many, some as yet unborn. 

 

A few days ago @Smithee asked for reasons to stay in the union. One of the main reasons is that the alternative could be much worse. Its crap enough that I can't work in Europe easily anymore. I'd be even more pissed off if my kids can't work in Manchester or London, for example. Like it or not, we have a long common history with the peculiar place on the other side of Hadrian's Wall, and the benefits that that the current setup brings - including the economic and educational opportunities that provides for many Scots - outweighs the Rumsfeldian unknown unknowns of going it alone.

 

Irish people don't have trouble working in Manchester or London, why would we?

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Lord Frost, a man who has a proven track record of being shit in every job he's ever had, has felt the need to chime in on independence. 

 

He's brought the intellect that brought you Brexit, the oven ready deal and the NI Protocol to bear and feels the SNP should not be appeased but be defeated. 

 

How many elections has he won in his stellar government career? 

 

None. Not a single one.

 

If he feels so strongly he should come and put his money where his mouth is and stand for Holyrood?

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

10 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Oh dear. No positive economic case for independence 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/star-snp-economist-fails-to-find-the-positive-case-for-independence

 

 

It's a fair question, and I can only think that the underlying expectation is that the hard borders that Brexit has erected are so economically foolish, that indyref2 or not, there's going to be a lot of reintegration that happens at Dover which would carry over to Gretna and Portpatrick.

 

Then again, the current UK government seems to not have met a blatantly foolish policy they're not willing to double-down on.

[Unknown user]

54 minutes ago, jonesy said:

You're as naive as the folk who thought we'd agree a nice cuddly Brexit with the dopey Europeans in Brussels. Scotland will be in no position to drive a hard bargain come 'Wuroot'.

 

Britain's got a pretty good record of not acting the **** after releasing sovereign nations from its icy clutches, there's no reason to expect otherwise.

[Konrad von Carstein]

20 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Oh dear. No positive economic case for independence 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/star-snp-economist-fails-to-find-the-positive-case-for-independence

 

 

 

 

 

Oh dear another "swing and a miss" for wee Elmer

 

A TOP pro-independence economist has hit back at claims he could not make the case for leaving the Union, saying he had been misrepresented in the interests of “point-scoring”.

Mark Blyth, a professor of international economics at Brown University in the US, has said he was the victim of “selective quotation” over emails he sent in which he appeared to say he was “struggling” to find evidence to back up his conversion to Yes.

Emails sent by Dundee-born Blyth, who sat on the Scottish Government’s advisory council for economic transformation, were released following a freedom of information request and were seized upon by Unionist papers as an embarrassing revelation for the SNP.

In an email to the Scottish Government’s chief economic adviser Gary Gillespie from May last year, Blyth said: “Since David McWilliams made me into the reluctant poster child for Scottish independence, I’ve been a bit stumped. I’ve been trying to write something on the subject but keep struggling to find the positive case that I hoped for.”

Writing exclusively for The National, he said the phrase was “unfortunate” but was being misrepresented by media outlets trying to score “points"

he added: “If you read the rest of the email, you can clearly see that it’s a complaint about not being able to find specific national accounts data on the Scottish Government website.

“My email was a request for data. It was not an admission of defeat.”

Top Irish economist McWilliams – who said earlier this year Scottish independence was “almost all upside” as he came out in favour of Yes – hosted Blyth in a podcast in 2020 in which the pair discussed the opportunities offered by independence.

He said the story was a “nothing burger” and his experience of reading press coverage of his comments was as if “I woke up in selective quotation Groundhog Day”.

 

“What this episode shows me is that the Scottish independence question, at least in the hands of its politicians, civil society leaders, and media, has become a local version of the Brexit debates,” Blyth said.

“It’s an all-consuming distraction where partisan lines are drawn, points are scored, and emails are selectively quoted, all in a way that avoids the need for any actual engagement on the real issues facing Scotland.”

He also reiterated the economic case for leaving the Union, adding: “Scotland suffers from being attached to a broken debt and consumption-driven national growth model called the UK that teeters on the brink of collapse.

“34% of UK GDP is generated in London. Much of the rest of the country effectively lives off transfers. Sterling has been overvalued for a generation, which has masked these problems, sucking in other people’s money to cover over the cracks.

“That model is coming to an end, soon. If you think the UK has inflation now, just wait.

“While the UK has no functioning growth model Scotland is at least trying to lay the foundations for a new and better one.

“The National Strategy for Economic Transformation was an attempt, within the existing constitutional framework, to do better.

 

“It spells out how and why Scotland should grow and diversify its exports while putting the all too necessary green transition at the centre of its ambitions. While Westminster peddles tax cuts Scotland tackles decarbonization and the growth of a hydrogen economy.

[kingantti1874]

We will be poorer for decades. We have a lazy split population who in all honesty vote for whoever promises the biggest ****ing handout. 
 

Go out for a walk in your average central belt town and we have plebs dripping from every corner, kicking about in their jammies and reeking of weed. Useless humans. 
 

and the talent that Scotland would need to reshape the economy over the next decades would desert en masse.  Why should they pay for this stupidity. 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

We will be poorer for decades. We have a lazy split population who in all honesty vote for whoever promises the biggest ****ing handout. 
 

Go out for a walk in your average central belt town and we have plebs dripping from every corner, kicking about in their jammies and reeking of weed. Useless humans. 
 

and the talent that Scotland would need to reshape the economy over the next decades would desert en masse.  Why should they pay for this stupidity. 

 

 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

9 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

We will be poorer for decades. We have a lazy split population who in all honesty vote for whoever promises the biggest ****ing handout. 
 

Go out for a walk in your average central belt town and we have plebs dripping from every corner, kicking about in their jammies and reeking of weed. Useless humans. 
 

and the talent that Scotland would need to reshape the economy over the next decades would desert en masse.  Why should they pay for this stupidity. 

Fair comment 

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

We will be poorer for decades. We have a lazy split population who in all honesty vote for whoever promises the biggest ****ing handout. 
 

Go out for a walk in your average central belt town and we have plebs dripping from every corner, kicking about in their jammies and reeking of weed. Useless humans. 
 

and the talent that Scotland would need to reshape the economy over the next decades would desert en masse.  Why should they pay for this stupidity. 

Para 1 is not unique to Scotland in the UK. How much poorer can the general population be compared to now?

Para 2 Again not unique to Scotland 

Para 3 Opinion presented as fact.

 

Wee anecdote, there's a young graduate who has been doing placements in my work for the last year or so. English very polite and also very intelligent.

Got talking to him while in the tea prep room, turns out he got the job straight after graduating and moved here on his own and bought a flat. 

When asked if he missed home is words were "God no. I love it up here"

[sinks]

2 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Para 1 is not unique to Scotland in the UK. How much poorer can the general population be compared to now?

Para 2 Again not unique to Scotland 

Para 3 Opinion presented as fact.

 

Wee anecdote, there's a young graduate who has been doing placements in my work for the last year or so. English very polite and also very intelligent.

Got talking to him while in the tea prep room, turns out he got the job straight after graduating and moved here on his own and bought a flat. 

When asked if he missed home is words were "God no. I love it up here"

Well that's convinced me

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

We will be poorer for decades. We have a lazy split population who in all honesty vote for whoever promises the biggest ****ing handout. 
 

Go out for a walk in your average central belt town and we have plebs dripping from every corner, kicking about in their jammies and reeking of weed. Useless humans. 
 

and the talent that Scotland would need to reshape the economy over the next decades would desert en masse.  Why should they pay for this stupidity. 

Nail hit on the head

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Oh dear another "swing and a miss" for wee Elmer

 

A TOP pro-independence economist has hit back at claims he could not make the case for leaving the Union, saying he had been misrepresented in the interests of “point-scoring”.

Mark Blyth, a professor of international economics at Brown University in the US, has said he was the victim of “selective quotation” over emails he sent in which he appeared to say he was “struggling” to find evidence to back up his conversion to Yes.

Emails sent by Dundee-born Blyth, who sat on the Scottish Government’s advisory council for economic transformation, were released following a freedom of information request and were seized upon by Unionist papers as an embarrassing revelation for the SNP.

In an email to the Scottish Government’s chief economic adviser Gary Gillespie from May last year, Blyth said: “Since David McWilliams made me into the reluctant poster child for Scottish independence, I’ve been a bit stumped. I’ve been trying to write something on the subject but keep struggling to find the positive case that I hoped for.”

Writing exclusively for The National, he said the phrase was “unfortunate” but was being misrepresented by media outlets trying to score “points"

he added: “If you read the rest of the email, you can clearly see that it’s a complaint about not being able to find specific national accounts data on the Scottish Government website.

“My email was a request for data. It was not an admission of defeat.”

Top Irish economist McWilliams – who said earlier this year Scottish independence was “almost all upside” as he came out in favour of Yes – hosted Blyth in a podcast in 2020 in which the pair discussed the opportunities offered by independence.

He said the story was a “nothing burger” and his experience of reading press coverage of his comments was as if “I woke up in selective quotation Groundhog Day”.

 

“What this episode shows me is that the Scottish independence question, at least in the hands of its politicians, civil society leaders, and media, has become a local version of the Brexit debates,” Blyth said.

“It’s an all-consuming distraction where partisan lines are drawn, points are scored, and emails are selectively quoted, all in a way that avoids the need for any actual engagement on the real issues facing Scotland.”

He also reiterated the economic case for leaving the Union, adding: “Scotland suffers from being attached to a broken debt and consumption-driven national growth model called the UK that teeters on the brink of collapse.

“34% of UK GDP is generated in London. Much of the rest of the country effectively lives off transfers. Sterling has been overvalued for a generation, which has masked these problems, sucking in other people’s money to cover over the cracks.

“That model is coming to an end, soon. If you think the UK has inflation now, just wait.

“While the UK has no functioning growth model Scotland is at least trying to lay the foundations for a new and better one.

“The National Strategy for Economic Transformation was an attempt, within the existing constitutional framework, to do better.

 

“It spells out how and why Scotland should grow and diversify its exports while putting the all too necessary green transition at the centre of its ambitions. While Westminster peddles tax cuts Scotland tackles decarbonization and the growth of a hydrogen economy.

Got away you big troll 

[Konrad von Carstein]

43 minutes ago, sinks said:

Well that's convinced me

Wasn't meant convince anyone...just a real life example of talent keen to flow the opposite direction described by Annti, my company employs a multitude of nationalities. 

[Shooter McGavin]

4 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Nail hit on the head

It isn’t backed up by any kind of logic, reasoning or factual information, just a single persons un-substantiated opinion, so of-course yourself and @manaliveits105 lap it up 😂

 

Have you two started reading full articles yet? X

[Konrad von Carstein]

4 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Got away you big troll 

Hit a nerve did I?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Shooter McGavin said:

It isn’t backed up by any kind of logic, reasoning or factual information, just a single persons un-substantiated opinion, so of-course yourself and @manaliveits105 lap it up 😂

 

Have you two started reading full articles yet? X

Full articles? He hasn't finished reading his username yet

[Shooter McGavin]

I mean, we can all go around saying things, that’s easy.

 

But to base what you’re saying from evidence, research papers and well sourced articles, that takes a bit of time and work.

 

So of-course, many on here don’t bother. Just keep saying whatever comes into your funny little head.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Full articles? He hasn't finished reading his username yet

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Oh dear another "swing and a miss" for wee Elmer

 

A TOP pro-independence economist has hit back at claims he could not make the case for leaving the Union, saying he had been misrepresented in the interests of “point-scoring”.

Just like 2014 every claim turns out to be bullshit. 

 

It's great to watch. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

24 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Sadly all too true.

 

 

Last paragraph apart!

And the first two are a UK phenomenon not just limited to Scotland.

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Hit a nerve did I?

Thought that was how debate went with you