Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jonesy said: Perhaps we could run a poll with 4, rather than 2, options, ranging from Strongly support Indy- Strongly support union. Anyone selecting either of the strong options is automatically excluded from the debate on the grounds that they are unable and/or unwilling to actually debate. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, pablo said: You always do. But then you're absolutely blinkered in this debate and offer nothing. Bit personal mate, you made a poor point that I disagreed with 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Fundamentally, there’s nothing to debate. Whatever we’re told is subject to change, or potentially lies. No-one can look at Better Together and think the Union is now offering what they said it would when the first vote took place. The UK is a mess. No-one can look at Yes camp’s chat about the value of oil to an Indy Scotland and think they had any idea what they were talking about either. It’s all total horseshit. Far better to decide if the idea of independence floats your boat ideologically. If it goes, go for it. If it doesn’t, vote no. The technical debate around it is just white noise. Good posting, Lets just have the vote and end it for a real generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Fundamentally, there’s nothing to debate. We don't agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Fundamentally, there’s nothing to debate. Whatever we’re told is subject to change, or potentially lies. No-one can look at Better Together and think the Union is now offering what they said it would when the first vote took place. The UK is a mess. No-one can look at Yes camp’s chat about the value of oil to an Indy Scotland and think they had any idea what they were talking about either. It’s all total horseshit. Far better to decide if the idea of independence floats your boat ideologically. If it goes, go for it. If it doesn’t, vote no. The technical debate around it is just white noise. This. And theres people on both sides who see no negatives to their approach whatsoever. Nothing. It’s just two sides filled with people who are unshakeable in there beliefs despite how much evidence is available to them. I suspect evidence, facts, logic and reasoning matter very little to these people. Better off to just say things without thought, eh? They take themselves far too seriously and are incapable of going “I don’t have the answer to that I’m afraid, but I’ll endeavour to find out”. Peoples egos lead them down a path of name calling and spewing out any old garbage to suit their agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, Smithee said: We don't agree. Fair enough but I confidently predict that if and when a vote takes place, none of us will be any clearer on the social/economic implications of voting yes or no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, jonesy said: Perhaps we could run a poll with 4, rather than 2, options, ranging from Strongly support Indy- Strongly support union. Anyone selecting either of the strong options is automatically excluded from the debate on the grounds that they are unable and/or unwilling to actually debate. One of the most sensible things I’ve read on this entire thread. Completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Good posting, Lets just have the vote and end it for a real generation. What if it’s Yes though? There is no next time surely, it’s surely done no? I see the calls for if it’s a yes can we have another vote to rejoin but id genuinely love to hear someone sell this to me. Does the ruk ever get any say at all or we just leave and then rejoin as we see fit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: This. And theres people on both sides who see no negatives to their approach whatsoever. Nothing. It’s just two sides filled with people who are unshakeable in there beliefs despite how much evidence is available to them. I suspect evidence, facts, logic and reasoning matter very little to these people. Better off to just say things without thought, eh? They take themselves far too seriously and are incapable of going “I don’t have the answer to that I’m afraid, but I’ll endeavour to find out”. Peoples egos lead them down a path of name calling and spewing out any old garbage to suit their agenda. I live in England so I won’t get a vote (I feel like I should because I grew up in Scotland for 18 years and I’m more Scottish than a lot of people who will get a vote but’s that’s another argument altogether) but more and more I’m coming round to the view that independence is a brave new world which is worth the risk and worth exploring. The UK has such negative vibes at the moment and it gets harder to see much appeal in the union Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I wonder if many floating voters are put off by that performance last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: What if it’s Yes though? There is no next time surely, it’s surely done no? I see the calls for if it’s a yes can we have another vote to rejoin but id genuinely love to hear someone sell this to me. Does the ruk ever get any say at all or we just leave and then rejoin as we see fit? It would be like the UK trying to rejoin the EU. It wouldn’t be Scotland’s prerogative to rejoin because rUK would not be legally obliged to accept re-entry (and quite honestly, if Scotland found itself wanting to rejoin, rUK would probably block it out of spite) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, FWJ said: I wonder if many floating voters are put off by that performance last night. what was this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 23 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: Were we an independent nation yesterday? Nooe, it’s called outlook Shooter. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: It would be like the UK trying to rejoin the EU. It wouldn’t be Scotland’s prerogative to rejoin because rUK would not be legally obliged to accept re-entry (and quite honestly, if Scotland found itself wanting to rejoin, rUK would probably block it out of spite) Yeah my point was more about the howls of letting the No side claim they should have another indyref to rejoin. It’s proper laughable Imo. The comparisons with the EU are laid completely bare in this scenario. Of course if a party forms and gets the numbers it’s democracy you can’t deny it but Id love to just hear them sell it to me tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: What if it’s Yes though? There is no next time surely, it’s surely done no? I see the calls for if it’s a yes can we have another vote to rejoin but id genuinely love to hear someone sell this to me. Does the ruk ever get any say at all or we just leave and then rejoin as we see fit? its its a yes thats fine. Its a majority vote. Ill accept the democratic will of the people , just like i did in 2014. And no campaign to rejoin the UK either. Ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, FWJ said: I wonder if many floating voters are put off by that performance last night. Absolutely. It is always a one off or a minority every time it happens though. 🙄 Ffs Ri couldn’t have been at all these things. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: Yeah my point was more about the howls of letting the No side claim they should have another indyref to rejoin. It’s proper laughable Imo. The comparisons with the EU are laid completely bare in this scenario. Of course if a party forms and gets the numbers it’s democracy you can’t deny it but Id love to just hear them sell it to me tbh. I don't have a problem with it, if the people of Scotland want to seek a union with England, we should talk to England about it. It's laughably unlikely of course, but democracy's democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: wanting to rejoin, rUK would probably block it out of spite) I rather doubt England or Wales would welcome Scotland back. No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: I live in England so I won’t get a vote (I feel like I should because I grew up in Scotland for 18 years and I’m more Scottish than a lot of people who will get a vote but’s that’s another argument altogether) but more and more I’m coming round to the view that independence is a brave new world which is worth the risk and worth exploring. The UK has such negative vibes at the moment and it gets harder to see much appeal in the union This is where I am and why I voted ‘yes’ last time and probably will again. But I’m not a visceral Scottish Nationalist and I’ve quite a few questions I’d like answered. Trouble is, dare to ask any questions or express any misgivings or potential drawbacks and you’re shouted down as a ‘gammon yoon’ or whatever. I think the SNP will be pretty p-off with that carry on last night. It’ll put a lot of people off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, FWJ said: you’re shouted down as a ‘gammon yoon’ or whatever. very true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said: Tunnel visioned zealot it is then. You’re slowly unraveling Pablo. Unravelling in what way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, FWJ said: I wonder if many floating voters are put off by that performance last night. What actually happened though? In all honesty? Some people said some words? Rumours and claims of eggs being thrown by a group of about 50 complete and utter dingbats? I find all this amusing on an actual football forum tbh Every other fanbase is scum etc and junkies and spoon burners and huns and fenians all the rest but some brain dead’s get blown up on twitter by conservative mps who know exactly what they’re doing and look at the state some people get in. Not you btw👍🏼 Its their play acting nonsense again for me. Nobody was hurt it’s just tweets of “horrible” people shouting some words. Laughable to me. Edited August 17, 2022 by jack D and coke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, FWJ said: This is where I am and why I voted ‘yes’ last time and probably will again. But I’m not a visceral Scottish Nationalist and I’ve quite a few questions I’d like answered. Trouble is, dare to ask any questions or express any misgivings or potential drawbacks and you’re shouted down as a ‘gammon yoon’ or whatever. I think the SNP will be pretty p-off with that carry on last night. It’ll put a lot of people off. Why does there need to another vote and why do the SNP need cooperation and negotiation with Westminster? They have with the Greens a majority in Holyrood. They could take Scotland out of the UK anytime they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, FWJ said: I wonder if many floating voters are put off by that performance last night. This. Truss and Sunak were shocking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, The Real Maroonblood said: This. Truss and Sunak were shocking. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, Dazo said: Nooe, it’s called outlook Shooter. 👍 That’s fair enough, there will be idiots behaving like idiots, independence or not, though. I’d base my decision from economic and political arguments, over some idiots trying to get a reaction with their phones out 👍🏻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, pablo said: Why does there need to another vote and why do the SNP need cooperation and negotiation with Westminster? They have with the Greens a majority in Holyrood. They could take Scotland out of the UK anytime they wanted. Because brexit happened, and we’re being asked if we’d like to go down an alternative route to the one the UK has gone down. You might have thought staying in the UK was for the best, but post-brexit, you may decide independence and joining the EU is the better option. Whether you want it or not, it’s good you’re being given the chance to decide what you want, under different circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 This shit that’s happening here or is about to arrive over the horizon here was France the govt would be dodging Molotov cocktails ffs and riots! 50 halfwit Scottish people said some words though to these pricks and it’s ooooh look how bad everyone is on that side. Honestly dry yir eyes you lot 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: This shit that’s happening here or is about to arrive over the horizon here was France the govt would be dodging Molotov cocktails ffs and riots! 50 halfwit Scottish people said some words though to these pricks and it’s ooooh look how bad everyone is on that side. Honestly dry yir eyes you lot 😂 They won’t because they’re spineless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I do find it a bit bizarre that the same people who’ve glossed over the cost-of-living crisis, energy bills skyrocketing 200%+, fuel at all-time high prices, more and more people in full-time employment relying on foodbanks, newly introduced warmbanks, but have somehow drawn the line at some toolboxes behaving like idiots in Perth yesterday 😂 Nice to see what some peoples priorities are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 29 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: Yeah my point was more about the howls of letting the No side claim they should have another indyref to rejoin. It’s proper laughable Imo. The comparisons with the EU are laid completely bare in this scenario. Of course if a party forms and gets the numbers it’s democracy you can’t deny it but Id love to just hear them sell it to me tbh. I suppose it could only be sold on the basis that Scotland turns independent, it works out badly for the country and there’s a groundswell for rejoining the UK. In those circumstances you could see the argument. What you’re saying though is why if there is another vote, and the result is no, it has to be the last referendum for a long, long time. What’s good for the goose etc. The yes camp can’t have the exclusive luxury of holding votes as often as they please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: What actually happened though? In all honesty? Some people said some words? Rumours and claims of eggs being thrown by a group of about 50 complete and utter dingbats? I find all this amusing on an actual football forum tbh Every other fanbase is scum etc and junkies and spoon burners and huns and fenians all the rest but some brain dead’s get blown up on twitter by conservative mps who know exactly what they’re doing and look at the state some people get in. Not you btw👍🏼 Its their play acting nonsense again for me. Nobody was hurt it’s just tweets of “horrible” people shouting some words. Laughable to me. it was more than that. Language is powerful. Come on your now almost defending them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: What’s good for the goose etc. is sauce for the gander so there needs to be an agreement that after the next Indy vote there a certain time should elapse before the next one. Im guessing one side wont want that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: I suppose it could only be sold on the basis that Scotland turns independent, it works out badly for the country and there’s a groundswell for rejoining the UK. In those circumstances you could see the argument. What you’re saying though is why if there is another vote, and the result is no, it has to be the last referendum for a long, long time. What’s good for the goose etc. The yes camp can’t have the exclusive luxury of holding votes as often as they please. No I said if a party forms and they get the numbers you can’t deny it. Definitely not. Id love to hear the selling points though was more what I was getting at. Id imagine a huge groundswell of the ruk public massively against it in that scenario too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: it was more than that. Language is powerful. Come on your now almost defending them. No I’m not but it was words. From halfwits. They don’t represent anything about me or anything I believe in or anything I want to see. They should be mocked. Not a single one of them could burst a paper bag. Laughable mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 23 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: That’s fair enough, there will be idiots behaving like idiots, independence or not, though. I’d base my decision from economic and political arguments, over some idiots trying to get a reaction with their phones out 👍🏻 Absolutely, just wish there was some normal snp supporters out there to balance things up. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I wouldn’t advise too many of you unionist types start going to those nasty football matches where some people might shout some bad words. Be a harrowing experience for you lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: I wouldn’t advise too many of you unionist types start going to those nasty football matches where some people might shout some bad words. Be a harrowing experience for you lot. Been in the thick of that before Had a partner who would belt out the billy boys " song" anywhere, anytime. Sorry EX partner so my ears are used to that. No delicate flower here. ps your still minimising it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: No I’m not but it was words. From halfwits. They don’t represent anything about me or anything I believe in or anything I want to see. They should be mocked. Not a single one of them could burst a paper bag. Laughable mate. There were representing the Indy movement last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: There were representing the Indy movement last night. I could go out with a Hearts scarf on and punch a pensioner in the face ! Would I be representing Hearts ? Behave, James ! ( For the record, I'd never do such a thing ! 🙂 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, Dazo said: Absolutely, just wish there was some normal snp supporters out there to balance things up. 👍 Well that's a very poor post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 31 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: Because brexit happened, and we’re being asked if we’d like to go down an alternative route to the one the UK has gone down. You might have thought staying in the UK was for the best, but post-brexit, you may decide independence and joining the EU is the better option. Whether you want it or not, it’s good you’re being given the chance to decide what you want, under different circumstances. I think you might be missing my point. I'm asking why do the SNP need Westminster? They could pass an act of Independence through Holyrood and declare UDI. Brexit is nothing to do with this. The material change mantra is just something that the SNP made up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Boab said: I could go out with a Hearts scarf on and punch a pensioner in the face ! Would I be representing Hearts ? Behave, James ! ( For the record, I'd never do such a thing ! 🙂 ) Agreed, I should have said representing some of the Indy support. Not all of it all. Obviously. Btw what about if the pensioner is a Unionist Truss lover ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Boab said: I could go out with a Hearts scarf on and punch a pensioner in the face ! Would I be representing Hearts ? Behave, James ! ( For the record, I'd never do such a thing ! 🙂 ) You wouldn't want to get blood and or snotters on your scarf, that's just common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, pablo said: I think you might be missing my point. I'm asking why do the SNP need Westminster? They could pass an act of Independence through Holyrood and declare UDI. Brexit is nothing to do with this. The material change mantra is just something that the SNP made up. No it's not, it's a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Been in the thick of that before Had a partner who would belt out the billy boys " song" anywhere, anytime. Sorry EX partner so my ears are used to that. No delicate flower here. ps your still minimising it, I’m not mate I’m treating it with the disdain everyone should and mocking them. They looked ridiculous to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, pablo said: I think you might be missing my point. I'm asking why do the SNP need Westminster? They could pass an act of Independence through Holyrood and declare UDI. Brexit is nothing to do with this. The material change mantra is just something that the SNP made up. Because the likes of the EU wouldn’t recognise Scotland? It’s attempted to all be consensual, legal and agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: I’m not mate I’m treating it with the disdain everyone should and mocking them. They looked ridiculous to everyone. ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Konrad von Carstein said: No it's not, it's a thing. Yes, a thing the SNP made up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: Because the likes of the EU wouldn’t recognise Scotland? It’s attempted to all be consensual, legal and agreed. Then why would the UK ever agree to one? Would Germany allow a vote for Bavaria to leave? There will never be another legal referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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