Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Japan Jambo]

10 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Maybe a bit of marketing there but we inherited the idea from Finland where research proved its a very good idea and does provide benefits.

 

no doubt that it does indeed provide some marginal benefit to some, but the hyperbole destroys the credibility of the message. FWIW I got a Japanese one 15 years ago when my son was born, wasn't much use but did welcome the thought. Pretty sure it was funded by contributors who were effectively marketing their products.

[That thing you do]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Shame about when the baby reaches school age and receives a sub standard education.

I know and have met the guy who wrote CfE and that is also borrowed heavily from Finland which consistently is top globally for education.

 

So the intention at least of our system is good.

 

Different approach to teaching as a career there though ie need masters degree to teach, its well paid and well respected as a career path.

 

Also, no homework or private schooling meaning rich invest in state education not private charities as they do here.

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

I know and have met the guy who wrote CfE and that is also borrowed heavily from Finland which consistently is top globally for education.

 

So the intention at least of our system is good.

 

Different approach to teaching as a career there though ie need masters degree to teach, its well paid and well respected as a career path.

 

Also, no homework or private schooling meaning rich invest in state education not private charities as they do here.

 

That doesn't sound like a bad proposal to me. There would need to a shed load of investment in school infrastructure as well as the educators if we were going to do away with private schools. Especially in Edinburgh.

[il Duce McTarkin]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Something that sticks in my craw with private schooling is the parents that punt their kids to the state primary until about P6/7 then shift them to private school, as has been the plan all along (perhaps because their other kids have finished high school and they now have more money). I'm all for people using their money as they see fit, but don't lean on the state when it suits you.

 

Maybe they're trying to sus out whether sending the kids to private school is likely to provide a meaningful return for their investment, jonesy.

 

With robust but limited resources, I'll not be spunking the McClamore family silver on a poncey education for the heir and the spare until I can  ascertain whether they tend towards their father's considerable cognitive dexterity, or their mother's considerable dancing tablet induced dexterity.

 

I'm fundamentally against a tiered education system, btw, but have seen at first hand the difference that a stretch at the 'old school tie' shop can make to a multi-storey flats kid. It would be parental negligence to deny a child that potential competative advantage on philisophical grounds. It's the game that I hate, not necessarily the players.

 

I'm looking forward to being put in my place on this one.

[pablo]

27 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Something that sticks in my craw with private schooling is the parents that punt their kids to the state primary until about P6/7 then shift them to private school, as has been the plan all along (perhaps because their other kids have finished high school and they now have more money). I'm all for people using their money as they see fit, but don't lean on the state when it suits you.

 

Don't see too much wrong with that tbh Jonesy. After all parents who privately educate their children are paying towards state education exactly the same as the parents of kids using the state schools.

[pablo]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Fair point.

 

I just hate everyone.

 

Then you have the situation with the high performing state schools. I think there's some in rich suburbs in Glasgow that perform just as well if not better than some private schools. Although the parents pay the house prices to be in the catchment area. Nothing is ever black and white.

 

Of course the Scottish government has admitted defeat in closing the attainment gap to concentrate on constitutional politics. On a second referendum which they have no way of delivering and most people don't want.  

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

55 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Something that sticks in my craw with private schooling is the parents that punt their kids to the state primary until about P6/7 then shift them to private school, as has been the plan all along (perhaps because their other kids have finished high school and they now have more money). I'm all for people using their money as they see fit, but don't lean on the state when it suits you.

This is us - except the only reason our eldest is going to private school is because our catchment secondary is terrible. We either move house or pay for education, neither of which we can really afford but we’ve chosen the latter. Going to be skint for the best part of 12 years because our youngest will go there too but what can you do?

 

Some people apply the same argument to private medical care. I’ve got BUPA through my work which is just as well because I needed a major op last year and spent three months trying to get into the GP’s without success. ‘You’ll have to phone back tomorrow, no appointments today, no we can’t book you in, you just have to take your chances.’ **** that shit

[Hagar the Horrible]

On the subject of education, not sure if its been said before but for public v private schooling there are 2 obvious traits.  First part is the teachers who teach 5-11 (primary age, Teachers go through uni and are classed 1 - 3 once they serve a probationary year, all the 1s are snapped up by councils per se its just your donald duck if its a full time job or mat leave, but you get a full time job sooner rather than later,  2s get jobs once the 1s have been drafted  similar to the NFL.  3s end up in fee paying schools.

 

So these schools do end up with crap teachers but do get resources and have kids who want to be there or parents who take some resposibility for their own kids.

 

Council schools sacrifice education of the masses to allow violent and abusive kids hamper the edication of the many just because we have to have inclusion.  Teachers have to spend a disproportionate amount of time being distracted by one pupil at the risk of the safety of every one else.

 

I blame Swinney and the SNP for taking our education system from being brilliant to being meh.  I came from a deprived area, didnt know it at the time because there wasnt millenials and snowflakes telling me so.  Merit and ability means I worked hard without a degree, to now looking to see if I can still afford to retire early.  In an independant Scotland I would have to move abroad to afford to retire, never mind early

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

14 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Then you have the situation with the high performing state schools. I think there's some in rich suburbs in Glasgow that perform just as well if not better than some private schools. Although the parents pay the house prices to be in the catchment area. Nothing is ever black and white.

 

Of course the Scottish government has admitted defeat in closing the attainment gap to concentrate on constitutional politics. On a second referendum which they have no way of delivering and most people don't want.  

The catchment system means that this is the way of things - people always try to move into areas with better schools. We’ve got a great primary in our catchment so our house price has risen at a ludicrous rate but the secondary is gash so you get an influx of parents with v young kids and then an exodus of parents with older kids. It’s all a mess and sadly, you’ve no choice but to look out for yourself

[il Duce McTarkin]

20 minutes ago, jonesy said:

On a case by case basis, I'm not against it; everyone has their reasons. It's the overall pattern that annoys me. As it is, state primaries are oversubscribed (and that's a whole other discussion re folk registering dodgy 1-bed flats for families of 6 when their kids are moving from nursery to P1 near the better schools before moving to their 'real' house once P2 comes along). However, folk can and should be able to spend their money however they see fit.

 

 

Seems a bit cheeky to take advantage of 'free' education, and the limited resources it has, as well as the social side of things for the kid to be making pals, only to whisk them away to a 'better' school when the family budget allows. Well within the rules, just unimpressive behaviour, IMO.

 

The dodgy one-bed flat stuff is pretty poor form, I'll give you that, but in terms of unimpressive behaviour, sending the rats to the poncey schòol in S1 would probably be my least unimpressive behaviour of the past few decades.

 

In the cases that I have first-hand experience with, it was actually teachers at the state primary that approached parents and said that there were options for assisted places at a number of the private schools (it was the 80's mind), and that the children in question showed a particular promise that suggested a private education would very likely contribute to their development in a way that the local state schools would not. Those teachers were spot on, btw. 

 

I'm not sure I'll have to worry about it, tbh. Kid A seems more likely to forgo education and follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like his father did, and Kid B will be enrolling himself in Hencheman Academy once he has developed sufficient strenth to wield a lump of lead pipe.

 

19 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I just hate everyone.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Again, fair points. I too have enjoyed the benefits of BUPA through work (although not currently, so forking out for private care myself rather than pretend there's an NHS for everyone anymore).

 

Perhaps a discussion for another thread, but I'd like to see a means-tested approach to education (from primary to tertiary) with private schools abolished with the aim of driving up standards and resources for everyone. Perhaps those involved in running the private sector of education could be involved in the planning. Education is really the one thing a society cannot afford to have stratified or scrimped on.

I think the first step would be to try and break away from the system where schools in certain areas are condemned to struggle and schools in others are set up to thrive. It’s all linked to the unequal distribution of wealth and the fact that by default, the best schools will only get better and the worst schools will only get worse. It’s starting to dawn on everyone that the UK has been neglecting its priorities for ages and that intransigence is rapidly catching up on the country and the government. Education is one of several things which needs a massive overhaul and a massive injection to funding, but there’s no sign of it happening 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

39 minutes ago, jonesy said:

On a case by case basis, I'm not against it; everyone has their reasons. It's the overall pattern that annoys me. As it is, state primaries are oversubscribed (and that's a whole other discussion re folk registering dodgy 1-bed flats for families of 6 when their kids are moving from nursery to P1 near the better schools before moving to their 'real' house once P2 comes along). However, folk can and should be able to spend their money however they see fit.

 

 

Seems a bit cheeky to take advantage of 'free' education, and the limited resources it has, as well as the social side of things for the kid to be making pals, only to whisk them away to a 'better' school when the family budget allows. Well within the rules, just unimpressive behaviour, IMO.

Just with regards to the second bit, parents of kids who go to private school still pay tax which funds state schools. I know that’s not really the point but it’s a fact that none of my tax will pay for my kids’ secondary education 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

a baby box is the best start in life? Gosh didn't realise the solution was so straightforward. 

 

I think there was an issue regarding its nit being means tested . 

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

This is us - except the only reason our eldest is going to private school is because our catchment secondary is terrible. We either move house or pay for education, neither of which we can really afford but we’ve chosen the latter. Going to be skint for the best part of 12 years because our youngest will go there too but what can you do?

 

Some people apply the same argument to private medical care. I’ve got BUPA through my work which is just as well because I needed a major op last year and spent three months trying to get into the GP’s without success. ‘You’ll have to phone back tomorrow, no appointments today, no we can’t book you in, you just have to take your chances.’ **** that shit

I have no issue if parents want to send their children to private schools . It’s their money and takes some pressure of state funding . 
 

 

I’d advise people that private health insurance is helpful too . In the last couple years I’ve had to just go private due to some health issues and was seen far quicker than the NHS . I used the NHS after care though which were great too . Unfortunately due to my health issues I can’t get health insurance , well I’m assuming I can’t . But then again the NHS is back to normal now . 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Another rant, is our medical care.  Not talking about the NHS  but once you get a prescription which is free and credit to the SNP for that.  is anybody else out there having problems in getting one picked up.  On Friday went to pick up the misses as it was 3 days after being submitted, they want 2 days. Normally even after 5 its still not made up so after an hour of queueing you get told to come back in a hour which also equated to another queue for an hour.

 

Now on Friday, queued for an hour had to go back to work, went back went back at 12:30  after a long wait the place bleeding shut from 1 till 2pm, had to go back to work, never made it through the door.

 

I tried 3 times yesterday and after 3:30, small queue but sill had to bleeding wait as the effing methodone junkies were seen right away.  Then to be told its not made up, there is a 2 week wait.  I just picked up my prescription which was passed through and the wifes which she cannot go 2 weeks without, went to 5 different chemists and eventually found one in another town.  But I am working fom home a trip to the chemist took 3 hours.

 

They blame no staff which is another rant, but the SNP are now just focussed on another referendum using tax payers money rather than covid recovery, and restoring services to an acceptable level.  We cant keep blaming maggie and Boris for whats happening on our doorstep

 

Is this just me or is society crumbling under our eyes???

 

Discuss

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

The dodgy one-bed flat stuff is pretty poor form, I'll give you that, but in terms of unimpressive behaviour, sending the rats to the poncey schòol in S1 would probably be my least unimpressive behaviour of the past few decades.

 

In the cases that I have first-hand experience with, it was actually teachers at the state primary that approached parents and said that there were options for assisted places at a number of the private schools (it was the 80's mind), and that the children in question showed a particular promise that suggested a private education would very likely contribute to their development in a way that the local state schools would not. Those teachers were spot on, btw. 

 

I'm not sure I'll have to worry about it, tbh. Kid A seems more likely to forgo education and follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like his father did, and Kid B will be enrolling himself in Hencheman Academy once he has developed sufficient strenth to wield a lump of lead pipe.

 

 

Oh where or are you are a sailor ? Used to be a guy on this who was one but he disappeared off a cliff it maybe a boat 🚤 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Another rant, is our medical care.  Not talking about the NHS  but once you get a prescription which is free and credit to the SNP for that.  is anybody else out there having problems in getting one picked up.  On Friday went to pick up the misses as it was 3 days after being submitted, they want 2 days. Normally even after 5 its still not made up so after an hour of queueing you get told to come back in a hour which also equated to another queue for an hour.

 

Now on Friday, queued for an hour had to go back to work, went back went back at 12:30  after a long wait the place bleeding shut from 1 till 2pm, had to go back to work, never made it through the door.

 

I tried 3 times yesterday and after 3:30, small queue but sill had to bleeding wait as the effing methodone junkies were seen right away.  Then to be told its not made up, there is a 2 week wait.  I just picked up my prescription which was passed through and the wifes which she cannot go 2 weeks without, went to 5 different chemists and eventually found one in another town.  But I am working fom home a trip to the chemist took 3 hours.

 

They blame no staff which is another rant, but the SNP are now just focussed on another referendum using tax payers money rather than covid recovery, and restoring services to an acceptable level.  We cant keep blaming maggie and Boris for whats happening on our doorstep

 

Is this just me or is society crumbling under our eyes???

 

Discuss

Not had any problems picking up my scripts . In fact I think the new system post covid is far superior . Basically I just into my local chemist , request my meds which are on a repeat script and she sends it to GP . Did it yesterday and I’ll get them on Thursday . Previously you would probably make a time consuming appointment with GP 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Another rant, is our medical care.  Not talking about the NHS  but once you get a prescription which is free and credit to the SNP for that.  is anybody else out there having problems in getting one picked up.  On Friday went to pick up the misses as it was 3 days after being submitted, they want 2 days. Normally even after 5 its still not made up so after an hour of queueing you get told to come back in a hour which also equated to another queue for an hour.

 

Now on Friday, queued for an hour had to go back to work, went back went back at 12:30  after a long wait the place bleeding shut from 1 till 2pm, had to go back to work, never made it through the door.

 

I tried 3 times yesterday and after 3:30, small queue but sill had to bleeding wait as the effing methodone junkies were seen right away.  Then to be told its not made up, there is a 2 week wait.  I just picked up my prescription which was passed through and the wifes which she cannot go 2 weeks without, went to 5 different chemists and eventually found one in another town.  But I am working fom home a trip to the chemist took 3 hours.

 

They blame no staff which is another rant, but the SNP are now just focussed on another referendum using tax payers money rather than covid recovery, and restoring services to an acceptable level.  We cant keep blaming maggie and Boris for whats happening on our doorstep

 

Is this just me or is society crumbling under our eyes???

 

Discuss

Your points are fine but what are the snp doing about a referendum?
Absolutely hee haw imo. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Your points are fine but what are the snp doing about a referendum?
Absolutely hee haw imo. 

Waiting on a knock back from the Supreme Court apparently 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Not had any problems picking up my scripts . In fact I think the new system post covid is far superior . Basically I just into my local chemist , request my meds which are on a repeat script and she sends it to GP . Did it yesterday and I’ll get them on Thursday . Previously you would probably make a time consuming appointment with GP 

So is this just local to my area, only 3 years ago that system worked great, and the prescription was ready, then it became they only made it up if you turned up, which I can see the point if people just dont bother.  But if its not ready after 2 weeks, and you still have to wait a hour after that while they make it up, there is something wrong.  I have changed yesterday to let the surgery know I will pick up the prescriptions and drive 10 miles to get a chemist willing to make it up then and there

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Hagar the Horrible said:

So is this just local to my area, only 3 years ago that system worked great, and the prescription was ready, then it became they only made it up if you turned up, which I can see the point if people just dont bother.  But if its not ready after 2 weeks, and you still have to wait a hour after that while they make it up, there is something wrong.  I have changed yesterday to let the surgery know I will pick up the prescriptions and drive 10 miles to get a chemist willing to make it up then and there

Yes perhaps you just have s shite chemist . Change , my one is really good 

[il Duce McTarkin]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh where or are you are a sailor ? Used to be a guy on this who was one but he disappeared off a cliff it maybe a boat 🚤 

 

 

8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Not had any problems picking up my scripts.

 

Going by your first post, you either need to change your meds, or stop double-dunting the ones that you have.

 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Waiting on a knock back from the Supreme Court apparently 

More than likely so they’ve got an excuse to do hee haw about it again until another election when they try convince people they’re serious about it. 
The services are all struggling a bit for lots of reasons these days and I agree with Hagar in that it’s easy to think things are just falling apart with all the negative news. 
But the snp are not focusing on an indyref imo they’re trying to fool their support they are. 

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

Maybe they're trying to sus out whether sending the kids to private school is likely to provide a meaningful return for their investment, jonesy.

 

With robust but limited resources, I'll not be spunking the McClamore family silver on a poncey education for the heir and the spare until I can  ascertain whether they tend towards their father's considerable cognitive dexterity, or their mother's considerable dancing tablet induced dexterity.

 

I'm fundamentally against a tiered education system, btw, but have seen at first hand the difference that a stretch at the 'old school tie' shop can make to a multi-storey flats kid. It would be parental negligence to deny a child that potential competative advantage on philisophical grounds. It's the game that I hate, not necessarily the players.

 

I'm looking forward to being put in my place on this one.

The boys can learn some wisdom and his wordly views at uncle Jeff's ..

A fountain of knowledge .

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

 

 

Going by your first post, you either need to change your meds, or stop double-dunting the ones that you have.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

More than likely so they’ve got an excuse to do hee haw about it again until another election when they try convince people they’re serious about it. 
The services are all struggling a bit for lots of reasons these days and I agree with Hagar in that it’s easy to think things are just falling apart with all the negative news. 
But the snp are not focusing on an indyref imo they’re trying to fool their support they are. 

Yes just stringing along . There will be no Indy ref next October . They now have their eye on the general election de facto Indy ref it seems.  This will only cause more calamity and division . 

[Hagar the Horrible]

31 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Your points are fine but what are the snp doing about a referendum?
Absolutely hee haw imo. 

from our think tank, Nicola would prefer its not happening, its down to about 29% for those who want it.  Even if there is one, its unlikely to win.  A failed referendum would mark the end of the SNP in the same way as it did for Quebec in Canada.

 

If the SNP turned their attention to Devo-max and concentrated their efforts on prosperity then down the line in an actual generation independence could be real.

 

Alex and Nicola came close in their eyes, but take away the spin even the SNP know that 55% of people voted against a motion for a referendum they did not want thats a huge turn out against a motion.  and although 44% voted in favour it was still only 37% of eligible voters.

 

Nicola is the SNP and without her there is no campaign, Swinney is well swinney who could not deliver a pizza.  Nicola is looking to depart from politics, interal rumour mill granted.  But the question is, would she rather depart while there is a campaign and a fight to be had, or a failed campaign and the end of the movement for several generations.

 

From my own perspective, push for devo max, take independance of the table promote other policies, stand if every ward in the UK and become an effective oposition, even push for federalism.

 

To answer your question theye are effectively doing nada, so they can blame the big bad tories or English.  I think they want to lose the supreme court case, it will prolong their purpose.

 

You could argue they could win by even as little as by one vote, but they would need either NO appathy or a swing of over 400k voters.

 

All of whom nearly 10 years are still awaiting answers on how would independence even work and what currency would we have.  And now we might end up with border control on the A1 to the M74.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Hagar the Horrible

[il Duce McTarkin]

17 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

 

Your implicit innuendo is fairly offensive, tbh. I don't know how you continuously get away with it on here.

 

The good Lord won't be so lenient, however. 

An eternity in the lake of brimstone with Satan's firey trident slowly widening your hoop awaits, boyo.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dirk McClaymore

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

from our think tank, Nicola would prefer its not happening, its down to about 29% for those who want it.  Even if there is one, its unlikely to win.  A failed referendum would mark the end of the SNP in the same way as it did for Quebec in Canada.

 

If the SNP turned their attention to Devo-max and concentrated their efforts on prosperity then down the line in an actual generation independence could be real.

 

Alex and Nicola came close in their eyes, but take away the spin even the SNP know that 55% of people voted again a motion for a referendum they did not want thats a huge turn out agains a motion.  and although 44% voted in favour it was still only 37% of eligible voters.

 

Nicola is the SNP and without her there is no campaign, Swinney is well swinney who could not deliver a pizza.  Nicola is looking to depart from politics, interal rumour mill granted.  But the question is, would she rather depart while there is a campaign and a fight to be had, or a failed campaign and the end of the movement for several generations.

 

From my own perspective, push for devo max, take independance of the table promote other policies, stand if every ward in the UK and become an effective oposition, even push for federalism.

 

To answer your question theye are effectively doing nada, so they can blame the big bad tories or English.  I think they want to lose the supreme court case, it will prolong their purpose.

 

You could argue they could win by even as little as by one vote, but they would need either NO appathy or a swing of over 400k voters.

 

All of whom nearly 10 years are still awaiting answers on how would independence even work and what currency would we have.  And now we might end up with border control on the A1 to the M74.

Sums the situation up accurately I'd say.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

Your implicit innuendo is fairly offensive, tbh. I don't know you continuously get away with it on here.

 

The good Lord won't be so lenient, however. 

An eternity in the lake of brimstone with Satan's firey trident up your hoop awaits, boyo.

It’s no innuendo , you have exactly the same posting “ style.” Of a “ previous “ poster who was a sailor. There was nothing offensive about being a sailor in my posting.  In fact they are a nice bunch of lads .  That eternity sounds just wonderful . When can I sign up ? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

from our think tank, Nicola would prefer its not happening, its down to about 29% for those who want it.  Even if there is one, its unlikely to win.  A failed referendum would mark the end of the SNP in the same way as it did for Quebec in Canada.

 

If the SNP turned their attention to Devo-max and concentrated their efforts on prosperity then down the line in an actual generation independence could be real.

 

Alex and Nicola came close in their eyes, but take away the spin even the SNP know that 55% of people voted against a motion for a referendum they did not want thats a huge turn out against a motion.  and although 44% voted in favour it was still only 37% of eligible voters.

 

Nicola is the SNP and without her there is no campaign, Swinney is well swinney who could not deliver a pizza.  Nicola is looking to depart from politics, interal rumour mill granted.  But the question is, would she rather depart while there is a campaign and a fight to be had, or a failed campaign and the end of the movement for several generations.

 

From my own perspective, push for devo max, take independance of the table promote other policies, stand if every ward in the UK and become an effective oposition, even push for federalism.

 

To answer your question theye are effectively doing nada, so they can blame the big bad tories or English.  I think they want to lose the supreme court case, it will prolong their purpose.

 

You could argue they could win by even as little as by one vote, but they would need either NO appathy or a swing of over 400k voters.

 

All of whom nearly 10 years are still awaiting answers on how would independence even work and what currency would we have.  And now we might end up with border control on the A1 to the M74.

Very good posting 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

from our think tank, Nicola would prefer its not happening, its down to about 29% for those who want it.  Even if there is one, its unlikely to win.  A failed referendum would mark the end of the SNP in the same way as it did for Quebec in Canada.

 

If the SNP turned their attention to Devo-max and concentrated their efforts on prosperity then down the line in an actual generation independence could be real.

 

Alex and Nicola came close in their eyes, but take away the spin even the SNP know that 55% of people voted again a motion for a referendum they did not want thats a huge turn out agains a motion.  and although 44% voted in favour it was still only 37% of eligible voters.

 

Nicola is the SNP and without her there is no campaign, Swinney is well swinney who could not deliver a pizza.  Nicola is looking to depart from politics, interal rumour mill granted.  But the question is, would she rather depart while there is a campaign and a fight to be had, or a failed campaign and the end of the movement for several generations.

 

From my own perspective, push for devo max, take independance of the table promote other policies, stand if every ward in the UK and become an effective oposition, even push for federalism.

 

To answer your question theye are effectively doing nada, so they can blame the big bad tories or English.  I think they want to lose the supreme court case, it will prolong their purpose.

 

You could argue they could win by even as little as by one vote, but they would need either NO appathy or a swing of over 400k voters.

 

All of whom nearly 10 years are still awaiting answers on how would independence even work and what currency would we have.  And now we might end up with border control on the A1 to the M74.

Yeah don’t disagree with any of that really. 
Devo max isn’t ever going to be agreed though Imo. Keir Hardie started campaigning it for a century or more ago and it’s something no one has ever really been able to answer me why it hasn’t been allowed to happen. 
Why the U.K. govt won’t allow it (Cameron wouldn’t allow it on the last indyref probably because it likely would’ve romped home) and don’t seem to want us controlling all our own resources and instead present the idea they’d rather prop us up forevermore and have half our own people calling their fellow folks down and outs and cadgers. 
It’s quite a strange situation. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah don’t disagree with any of that really. 
Devo max isn’t ever going to be agreed though Imo. Keir Hardie started campaigning it for a century or more ago and it’s something no one has ever really been able to answer me why it hasn’t been allowed to happen. 
Why the U.K. govt won’t allow it (Cameron wouldn’t allow it on the last indyref probably because it likely would’ve romped home) and don’t seem to want us controlling all our own resources and instead present the idea they’d rather prop us up forevermore and have half our own people calling their fellow folks down and outs and cadgers. 
It’s quite a strange situation. 

Devo max could be the perfect solution - gives much more autonomy but respects the fact that Indy was voted down when the referendum took place. There just seem to be loads of vested interests infecting the whole debate, on both sides. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

There was nothing offensive about being a sailor in my posting.  In fact they are a nice bunch of lads . 

 

And lasses, btw.

 

Some even identify as both. You won't have any time for those ones, though.

 

Now I know that your fragile ego depends upon it, but can please stop trying to make this another james thread.

[Boab]

If only they could have some kind of vow in the event of a no vote !

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Devo max could be the perfect solution - gives much more autonomy but respects the fact that Indy was voted down when the referendum took place. There just seem to be loads of vested interests infecting the whole debate, on both sides. 

I agree. It would instantly solve the currency question, the naval base and military plus the fiscal transfers would instantly stop and surely ruk better off? 
It seems a win win for all concerned. 
What might it be that they’re not for letting go of? 
 

[jack D and coke]

Interesting too. Not sure how many Labour voters are still up here but surely that’s a fair number of them. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

I agree. It would instantly solve the currency question, the naval base and military plus the fiscal transfers would instantly stop and surely ruk better off? 
It seems a win win for all concerned. 
What might it be that they’re not for letting go of? 
 

See, I think Devo Max would be a test of motivation on both sides. If you’re opposed to it (beyond genuinely believing that it’s a set-up doomed to fail) then you’re basically driven by wanting purity of the Union or purity of independence - which is quite simply naked nationalism, nothing else.

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

And lasses, btw.

 

Some even identify as both. You won't have any time for those ones, though.

 

Now I know that your fragile ego depends upon it, but can please stop trying to make this another james thread.

Who’s James ? 

[jack D and coke]

8 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

See, I think Devo Max would be a test of motivation on both sides. If you’re opposed to it (beyond genuinely believing that it’s a set-up doomed to fail) then you’re basically driven by wanting purity of the Union or purity of independence - which is quite simply naked nationalism, nothing else.

Hadn’t thought of it like that. 
It’s clearly the solution but for some reason (I believe anyway) it’s the British govt who won’t go near it. I think they know if they offer that we’d take their hand off and that makes me doubt their intentions. 
Get an Indyref and try scare you to death but there won’t be any devo max option where you’ll take control of you’re resources and finances. 
You need us to prop you up though you’re skint. 
🤔

[pablo]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

More than likely so they’ve got an excuse to do hee haw about it again until another election when they try convince people they’re serious about it. 
The services are all struggling a bit for lots of reasons these days and I agree with Hagar in that it’s easy to think things are just falling apart with all the negative news. 
But the snp are not focusing on an indyref imo they’re trying to fool their support they are. 

 

It's because the numbers aren't there basically. You can make manifesto pledges, bang on about mandates whatever. It means nothing without the support for it being there.

 

When they used to talk about being over 60% for a sustained period of time they were actually on to something. They've failed to get anywhere near it, so that's something else dropped.

 

 

[jambomjm74]

2 hours ago, That thing you do said:

I know and have met the guy who wrote CfE and that is also borrowed heavily from Finland which consistently is top globally for education.

 

So the intention at least of our system is good.

 

Different approach to teaching as a career there though ie need masters degree to teach, its well paid and well respected as a career path.

 

Also, no homework or private schooling meaning rich invest in state education not private charities as they do here.

The SNP has failed the people of Scotland when it comes to education. 
The attainment gap is Scotland’s shame and vey much owned by the SNP government. I believe those from a deprived background in England are now more likely to go to university than Scotland (virtually the first time) and that we have seen a decline in our ratings vs other countries… 
It is the biggest barrier to a successful Scotland and one that would need solved before we ever look at independence seriously… put simply Scotland needs to get its house in order and the govt needs to focus on delivery. 
We have seen cost driven cuts to education (failure to raise council tax due to a need to protect votes) with a reduction in school senior leadership roles, shutting of specialist services and moving these into unprepared schools and the whole equity based extra spend hasn’t delivered the objectives set…

It is great to see others being blamed (suppose you cannot blame west mister here) .. yep it is private schools fault … I’m not a fan of private and exclusive education, it isn’t to blame for Scottish educational failures, that’s the SNPs to own.  To even write that, reeks of SNP activist propaganda to cover up their considerable failure here. 
I want “successful” action to improve educational attainment and reduce the attainment  gap now and the govt to focus on this, this should be the day job and how a govt is judged .. not which flag we fly and more division and effort on an Indy campaign. 
If successful, we would see the strength of a devolved government and how a local solution delivers.. at the moment that is not the case and the failure clearly damages the credibility of independence further.

[il Duce McTarkin]

23 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Who’s James ? 

 

Some egotistical, drama queen that posted on here for a time.

 

Bit of a whingeing nobody, really. The consensus was that he was the alter-ego of a noncey Tory MP posting in-chatacter. That would explain the undercurrent of transphobic, anti-semitic, misogyny, lack of understanding of working class realities, and profound loathing of the poor. It would also explain his sudden disappearance when the Met were finally put wide to him.

 

My sincerest appologies, he's definately not you.

You don't display any evidence of his positive traits.

 

Now go away and leave me alone, please.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dirk McClaymore

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's because the numbers aren't there basically. You can make manifesto pledges, bang on about mandates whatever. It means nothing without the support for it being there.

 

When they used to talk about being over 60% for a sustained period of time they were actually on to something. They've failed to get anywhere near it, so that's something else dropped.

 

 

Well the numbers really weren’t there the first time. If you believe in something you don’t wait the winds will change direction and they have changed where NS stands that’s for sure. There isn’t ever a right time for these things. 
If they really believed in it they’d have done things to convince you it’s the right path for Scotlands future. They just don’t real make me believe they want it is my feeling. 
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

Some egotistical, drama queen that posted on here for a time.

 

Bit of a whingeing nobody, really. The consensus was that he was the alter-ego of a noncey Tory MP posting in-chatacter. That would explain the undercurrent of transphobic, anti-semitic, misogyny, lack of understanding of working class realities, and profound loathing of the poor. It would also explain his sudden disappearance when the Met were finally put wide to him.

 

My sincerest appologies, he's definately not you.

You don't display any evidence of his positive traits.

 

Now go away and leave me alone, please.

 

 

 

 

Aren’t most on this whinging nobodies ? Or am I missing something ? I suppose it depends on what you “ whinge “ about . Yes I though you were  bleep bleep who was a whinging nobody from oxgangs who seemed to have a complex about that as he mentioned it often as well as his ship ahoy exploits which had some undercurrents of homophobia really . Glad he left the board as he was rather arrogant know it all really , with pathetic attempts at sardonic humour really . Glad we are clear about who we aren’t and I suppose you are happy that you have managed to malign “ James “ In such a savage and twisted way . I’m sure the “ consensus “ will be clapping their hands in glee . Poor James . He’s seems a resilient chap so he’ll be fine 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, Jeffros Furios said:

The boys can learn some wisdom and his wordly views at uncle Jeff's ..

A fountain of knowledge .

 

A spell qt Uncle Jeff's boot camp might do them a spot of good, tbf.

 

 

 

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Interesting too. Not sure how many Labour voters are still up here but surely that’s a fair number of them. 

 

This really doesn't surprise me. 
IMO a large reason the SNP vote surged (over the last 10+ years) was down to traditionally working class/middle class voters who don't like the sycophantic Scots Labour leadership.

 

Labour in Scotland feels like a collection of people who mutually agree that we should have a government that supports society but with a cross section who aren't afraid to lend their vote to create positive change.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Go for it Joanna

 

SNP MP casts further doubt over Nicola Sturgeon’s future (msn.com)

 

 

[Mysterion]

58 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

The SNP has failed the people of Scotland when it comes to education. 

 

I agree with many of your points. I'm going to pitch an alternative view on a different aspect of the issue. It's not to say I'm right, it is just an opinion.

 

When it comes to many of the problems I see the SQA and teachers/head teachers/school management as responsible for the delivery of the education program. We have (generally) schools where every teacher is a degree educated professionals who should be capable of working through solutions to deliver the education programs.

 

I just happen to think that there are too many who are unwilling to adapt without an attitude which contributes to issues. 

 

So many of us couldn't be teachers, it is an incredible skill to be able to control a class and deliver lessons. School management (principles/assistants etc) are usually superb in dealing with the human aspect of schooling from a senior perspective. I just don't believe they are good at delivering change though.

 

Purely an opinion. 

 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

30 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Go for it Joanna

 

SNP MP casts further doubt over Nicola Sturgeon’s future (msn.com)

 

 

#prayforthesmurfs

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes just stringing along . There will be no Indy ref next October . They now have their eye on the general election de facto Indy ref it seems.  This will only cause more calamity and division . 

If they go down that path then surely the lib Dems, Tories and Labour would have to work together and only stand one candidate in each seat. Saying that they may just ignore what the snp are doing and not accept it as any kind of defacto referendum