The rise and fall of The SNP.

[SE16 3LN]

21 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

See when you were growing up, did your old man or mum make you liable for the mortgage they took out and their credit cards etc? 

 

😂😂😂 Keep going

[jack D and coke]

LOOK HOW SKINT WE ARE  

 

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Scotland doesn't have full control over the money it raises, sends to WM or what it gets back. Scotland wouldn't be contributing money towards trident or have the same level of contribution to a military as it does as part of the UK. Infrastructure projects wouldn't cost the same due to the size difference so the Scottish taxpayers contribution to projects like HS2 is inflated. 

 

Anyone that thinks the figures for Scotland as part of the UK without full fiscal control are the same as an independent Scotland with full fiscal autonomy is quite frankly economically illiterate. 

A waste of time debating with some unionists. Too entrenched to think for themselves and just take the next anti Scottish headline. All about the too poor etc. You do wonder if some of them have ever been to school or have an original thought. 

[SE16 3LN]

19 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Scotland doesn't have full control over the money it raises, sends to WM or what it gets back. Scotland wouldn't be contributing money towards trident or have the same level of contribution to a military as it does as part of the UK. Infrastructure projects wouldn't cost the same due to the size difference so the Scottish taxpayers contribution to projects like HS2 is inflated. 

 

Anyone that thinks the figures for Scotland as part of the UK without full fiscal control are the same as an independent Scotland with full fiscal autonomy is quite frankly economically illiterate. 

10 years ago GERS figures were the reason for Scottish Independence, now they're bollocks. Its clear who is, quite frankly, Economically illiterate. The argument for separation will never be about money and always about national identity and hate of all things English. Of course Scotland can have full fiscal autonomy, but downhill, with the wind at her back these figures show it will take a long time to make up lost ground.

Edited August 27, 2020 by SE16 3LN
****ed it up

[Space Mackerel]

Strongest economy in Europe by a country mile in shock borrowing news

 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

10 years ago GERS figures were the reason for Scottish Independence, now they're bollocks. Its clear who is, quite frankly, Economically illiterate. The argument for separation will never be about money and always about national identity and hate of all things English. Of course Scotland can have full fiscal autonomy, but downhill, with the wind at her back these figures show it will take a long time to make up lost ground.

Why does Westminster need Scotland? We are skint and stupid are we not? Please let us go as we are a drain on their borrowing and adding to their debt. UK is failing Scotland as GERS demonstrably shows, if you believe these fudged figures. We can't manage our own economy when Westminster is working against us and won't allow us to do so! I wonder why? 

[Space Mackerel]

[Governor Tarkin]

13 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

 

And your last point has missed the point. You said that the UK shitshow has gave me what my family has. My point was my family has what it has because I bloody work for it and not because brittania handed it to me on a plate!

 

 

It's you that's missed the point.

 

The UK has provided you with a safe and secure environment in which your hard work can be rewarded with a decent quality of life. You were lucky enough to have been born in to that environment, so it was handed to you on a plate.

 

There are literally billions of people in other parts of the world in abject misery who work every bit as hard as you but who's countries of birth or residence do not offer any of the benefits you have on account of your residence in the UK.

 

That's not to say that an independent Scotland will not offer similar or better benefits, but that wasn't the point.

[Pans Jambo]

29 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It's you that's missed the point.

 

The UK has provided you with a safe and secure environment in which your hard work can be rewarded with a decent quality of life. You were lucky enough to have been born in to that environment, so it was handed to you on a plate.

 

There are literally billions of people in other parts of the world in abject misery who work every bit as hard as you but who's countries of birth or residence do not offer any of the benefits you have on account of your residence in the UK.

 

That's not to say that an independent Scotland will not offer similar or better benefits, but that wasn't the point.

Thats shite though. Like saying you were born with lungs so its a good job we have all that oxygen to breathe!

 

There are literally billions of people in other parts of the world who have the same opportunities as folks on these island and in a lot of cases, even better!

 

Why are we even discussing this?

[Governor Tarkin]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Thats shite though. Like saying you were born with lungs so its a good job we have all that oxygen to breathe!

 

There are literally billions of people in other parts of the world who have the same opportunities as folks on these island and in a lot of cases, even better!

 

Why are we even discussing this?

 

We're not discussing it, you're telling me it's shite and employing an analogy which tells me that there's no benefit to either of us in engaging you with the subtleties of the point any further.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

We're not discussing it, you're telling me it's shite and employing an analogy which tells me that there's no benefit to either of us in engaging you with the subtleties of the point any further.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

We're not discussing it, you're telling me it's shite and employing an analogy which tells me that there's no benefit to either of us in engaging you with the subtleties of the point any further.

 

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

@Space Mackerel

 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

@Space Mackerel

 

 

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1298330002296102913?s=20

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

10 years ago GERS figures were the reason for Scottish Independence, now they're bollocks. Its clear who is, quite frankly, Economically illiterate. The argument for separation will never be about money and always about national identity and hate of all things English. Of course Scotland can have full fiscal autonomy, but downhill, with the wind at her back these figures show it will take a long time to make up lost ground.

 

not even going to engage with someone operating at that level. You're beneath me. 

[Governor Tarkin]

15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1298330002296102913?s=20

 

Why are you quoting me when you post this stuff?

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

10 years ago GERS figures were the reason for Scottish Independence, now they're bollocks. Its clear who is, quite frankly, Economically illiterate. The argument for separation will never be about money and always about national identity and hate of all things English. Of course Scotland can have full fiscal autonomy, but downhill, with the wind at her back these figures show it will take a long time to make up lost ground.

Its STILL is a reason for Independence because it shows what a feck-up the UK are running the finances of a country that by law HAS to balance its budget and cannot borrow to any great extent, adjust taxation or VAT etc.

GERS is a snapshot of what is happening NOW. Not what will happen AFTER Independence with completely different spending priorities. Do you think Scotland will have HS2, Crossrail, Foreign Wars , a House of Lords, and a Nuclear arsenal etc to pay for???

 

No, she wont but dont let the truth get in the way will you.

 

Read some shite that around £1600 per person MORE gets spent in Scotland on average. Really? What TF on exactly? I'm just not seeing it. Likely be our share of the "National Debt" (which we cannot raise or decide what to spend it on).

 

English hating? Really????

Edited August 27, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[Don Dan]

One look at the Leadership of the current U.K. government  (stop laughing at the back) is enough to scare anyone right now. A chaotic bunch of bumbling clueless rats looking to steer  a rudderless sink ship on to the rocks. 

[SE16 3LN]

3 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

not even going to engage with someone operating at that level. You're beneath me. 

You're in a cesspit of denial. Unable to get over the destruction of your economic argument for separation, all you can come back with is the infantile responses of a figure rolling around on the floor laughing and the cutting "you're beneath me". What next raspberry blowing and farting noises.

[SE16 3LN]

9 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Its STILL is a reason for Independence because it shows what a feck-up the UK are running the finances of a country that by law HAS to balance its budget and cannot borrow to any great extent, adjust taxation or VAT etc.

GERS is a snapshot of what is happening NOW. Not what will happen AFTER Independence with completely different spending priorities. Do you think Scotland will have HS2, Crossrail, Foreign Wars , a House of Lords, and a Nuclear arsenal etc to pay for???

 

No, she wont but dont let the truth get in the way will you.

 

Read some shite that around £1600 per person MORE gets spent in Scotland on average. Really? What TF on exactly? I'm just not seeing it. Likely be our share of the "National Debt" (which we cannot raise or decide what to spend it on).

 

English hating? Really????

I'll bet this is the exact opposite of the argument you were presenting 10 years ago. Yes many Scots hate the English, are you surprised?

[Pans Jambo]

8 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'll bet this is the exact opposite of the argument you were presenting 10 years ago. Yes many Scots hate the English, are you surprised?

Yes I am surprised. Very.

 

I know theres a good rivalry at the Football/Rugby and we slag each other off (I'm the only Scot at my work of 650 people) but actually HATE? No!

 

Not seen that. I have seen and heard some things coming my way though. "Jock", Jockistani", "Deep Fried Mars Bars", "Gingers in skirts", Braveheart mob", Subsidy Junkies". What would you call that then if its not Xenophobic pish?

 

Not seen or heard any actual HATE towards England or the St.Georges cross. Union Jack or Westminster is a different matter though.

 

Tell you what I do HATE personally, Scots who call themselves Scots but dont want Scots to run Scotland. That I cannot abide!

Edited August 27, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[SE16 3LN]

39 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1298330002296102913?s=20

Nationalist Party desperately trying to spin their way out of their former love for GERS by smoke screening it with National debt.

[SE16 3LN]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Yes I am surprised. Very.

 

I know theres a good rivalry at the Football/Rugby and we slag each other off (I'm the only Scot at my work of 650 people) but actually HATE? No!

 

Not seen that. I have seen and heard some things coming my way though. "Jock", Jockistani", "Deep Fried Mars Bars", "Gingers in skirts", Braveheart mob", Subsidy Junkies". What would you call that then if its not Xenophobic pish?

 

Not seen or heard any actual HATE towards England or the St.Georges cross. Union Jack or Westminster is a different matter though.

 

Tell you what I do HATE personally, Scots who call themselves Scots but dont want Scots to run Scotland. That I cannot abide!

People of all Nationalities and races who reside in Scotland "run" Scotland, if that's the term you want to use. What they don't do is run the global economy and they never will. Anyway the SG want to hand any powers Westminster currently have over to the Germans and the French don't they? If you haven't heard any "actual" (whatever that means) hate towards the English then I'm pleased for you, I've seen it loads.

 

[JackLadd]

5 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Nationalist Party desperately trying to spin their way out of their former love for GERS by smoke screening it with National debt.

 

 

"But national debt" doesn't really wash when their inflated budget adds £15bn a year onto same. And what if these clowns had had to also pay for the furlough scheme? What would they have cut to fund it? Wee Katy Forbes and Nicola would have a plan I'm sure. Lucky white heather,

[Don Dan]

I’m for independence but like Brexit it will be a difficult and fraught separation. 
I wonder what Barnier is doing in the coming years a wee job in Scotland on the cards. 

[AlphonseCapone]

44 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

You're in a cesspit of denial. Unable to get over the destruction of your economic argument for separation, all you can come back with is the infantile responses of a figure rolling around on the floor laughing and the cutting "you're beneath me". What next raspberry blowing and farting noises.

 

Stop talking to me, can feel my brain cells dying off. 

[Space Mackerel]

https://mises.org/wire/small-countries-are-better-theyre-often-richer-and-safer-big-countries

 

[Justin Z]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

https://mises.org/wire/small-countries-are-better-theyre-often-richer-and-safer-big-countries

 

 

Don't ever cite to anything on mises.org. This seems pretty unrelated to their brand, but it is still worth it to find it somewhere else. My favourite line from that website (which I can't find anymore, I think they took it off) which summed up the fantasy that is Austrian economics went something like, "If the data contradicts these economic truths, then the data must necessarily be wrong." Pure religion.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Don't ever cite to anything on mises.org. This seems pretty unrelated to their brand, but it is still worth it to find it somewhere else. My favourite line from that website (which I can't find anymore, I think they took it off) which summed up the fantasy that is Austrian economics went something like, "If the data contradicts these economic truths, then the data must necessarily be wrong." Pure religion.

 

I checked the author, he seems to have pretty good credentials.

 

I know nothing of mises in all honesty.

[Governor Tarkin]

8 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Pure religion.

 

 Nationalism in a nutshell. 

[JackLadd]

33 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

I’m for independence but like Brexit it will be a difficult and fraught separation. 
 

 

Except iScotland membership of the Brussels Union would cost an annual tribute of circa 2bn Euro to subsidise the Romania's and the rest with no 18bn in Euro coming our way. Just a slight difference there. Nicola has a plan for that though - fool the fools and worry later.  

Edited August 27, 2020 by JackLadd

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

People of all Nationalities and races who reside in Scotland "run" Scotland, if that's the term you want to use. What they don't do is run the global economy and they never will. Anyway the SG want to hand any powers Westminster currently have over to the Germans and the French don't they? If you haven't heard any "actual" (whatever that means) hate towards the English then I'm pleased for you, I've seen it loads.

 

What powers do they want to give to the Germans & French? Which ones? I’m betting you cant name one. 

[Pans Jambo]

20 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Except iScotland membership of the Brussels Union would cost an annual tribute of circa 2bn Euro to subsidise the Romania's and the rest with no 18bn in Euro coming our way. Just a slight difference there. Nicola has a plan for that though - fool the fools and worry later.  

Awesome. You already know the cost, the rebate and the buisness benefits of being an EU member.

[Don Dan]

12 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Awesome. You already know the cost, the rebate and the buisness benefits of being an EU member.

 Beat me to it.

[Justin Z]

46 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 Nationalism in a nutshell. 

 

Is "religion" in the nutshell of nationalism? Sure. Some of religion's usefulness is in creating a shared cultural narrative and identity. An example would be Latvian paganism—even though basically no one believes in the paganism itself anymore, it helps Latvians focus on their culture and roots even as their identity is systematically replaced by primarily Russian influence.

 

So yeah, that's a key component of a nationalist movement, but only a part of any healthy one. Contrast that to an economic school, which needs to be based on data, theory, observation and analysis.

 

The Scottish Nationalist movement is based in part on the inclusive idea of building an international community who want to be Scottish, an aspirational goal, as the First Minister has said on many occasions. To wit, we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns. So where that bears a similarity to a function of religion, I don't see a problem. Where nationalism is pressed into jingoism, then we're in American evangelical Christianity territory or the like, and that's something else entirely.

 

(and yes, I know this was a wind-up, but I think it's a great topic nonetheless )

[Governor Tarkin]

42 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Is "religion" in the nutshell of nationalism? Sure. Some of religion's usefulness is in creating a shared cultural narrative and identity. An example would be Latvian paganism—even though basically no one believes in the paganism itself anymore, it helps Latvians focus on their culture and roots even as their identity is systematically replaced by primarily Russian influence.

 

So yeah, that's a key component of a nationalist movement, but only a part of any healthy one. Contrast that to an economic school, which needs to be based on data, theory, observation and analysis.

 

The Scottish Nationalist movement is based in part on the inclusive idea of building an international community who want to be Scottish, an aspirational goal, as the First Minister has said on many occasions. To wit, we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns. So where that bears a similarity to a function of religion, I don't see a problem. Where nationalism is pressed into jingoism, then we're in American evangelical Christianity territory or the like, and that's something else entirely.

 

That's all well and good, but - the political intellectuals that post on here aside, obviously - you grossly over-estimate the average bread-and-butter Scottish Nationalist.

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Nationalist Party desperately trying to spin their way out of their former love for GERS by smoke screening it with National debt.

What are the GERS figures for England? Or Wales? Or NI? (Equivalents of GERS I mean)

Do they ever get mentioned anywhere?

[jack D and coke]

3 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'll bet this is the exact opposite of the argument you were presenting 10 years ago. Yes many Scots hate the English, are you surprised?

Many English hate the Scots. What’s your point?

[Justin Z]

14 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

That's all well and good, but - the political intellectuals that post on here aside, obviously - you grossly over-estimate the average bread-and-butter Scottish Nationalist.

 

I met and spoke to a fair few of them at the marches in Edinburgh and Glasgow—they were quite the diverse mix, from more countries than I could count on both hands, including some English folk. Everyone was welcomed and felt such, far as I saw.

 

The MAGA hat wearer in the "Force for Good" protest group struck a pretty sharp relief by comparison.

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Are you salami-slicing your PhD thesis to produce this pretentious guff?

 

I appreciate the compliment, mate—this guff was straight off the cuff.

[Pans Jambo]

20 minutes ago, weehammy said:

‘Scots who call themselves Scots’ WTF ???????????
You mean people born in Scotland, just like their parents and grandparents and great grandparents, etc. etc. who are every bit as Scottish as you?

No if theyve got theyre nose clean up westminsters hoop theyre no!
Cant be Scottish and desire the country you say you belong to, to have desicions made and be ran by someone else entirely IMO.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[GinRummy]

Latvian Paganism?!? 😂 WTF goes on in this thread sometimes. 

[Governor Tarkin]

43 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I met and spoke to a fair few of them at the marches in Edinburgh and Glasgow—they were quite the diverse mix, from more countries than I could count on both hands, including some English folk. Everyone was welcomed and felt such, far as I saw.

 

 

Not a truly representative cross-section.

 

28 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I appreciate the compliment, mate—this guff was straight off the cuff.

 

It read as off the cuff tbf.

 

16 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

No if theyve got theyre nose clean up westminsters hoop theyre no!
Cant be Scottish and desire the country you say you belong to, to have desicions made and be ran by someone else entirely IMO.

 

 

Now who's talking shite.

Scottish Unionists are as Scottish as you are, bud.

Them's the hard facts right there.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Not a truly representative cross-section.

 

 

Nah, of course not, but it's all I have to go on and it's cross-sectiony enough to feel sufficiently rigorous for me.

 

22 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

No if theyve got theyre nose clean up westminsters hoop theyre no!
Cant be Scottish and desire the country you say you belong to, to have desicions made and be ran by someone else entirely IMO.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Now who's talking shite.

Scottish Unionists are as Scottish as you are, bud.

Them's the hard facts right there.

 

Quite.

 

8 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Latvian Paganism?!? 😂 WTF goes on in this thread sometimes. 

 

Aim to please

[jake]

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Not a truly representative cross-section.

 

 

It read as off the cuff tbf.

 

 

 

Now who's talking shite.

Scottish Unionists are as Scottish as you are, bud.

Them's the hard facts right there.

Are you against independence for economic reasons mate?

 

[Pans Jambo]

14 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Not a truly representative cross-section.

 

 

It read as off the cuff tbf.

 

 

 

Now who's talking shite.

Scottish Unionists are as Scottish as you are, bud.

Them's the hard facts right there.

No theyre no

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Are you against independence for economic reasons mate?

 

😂 This should be good 🍿

[Governor Tarkin]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Are you against independence for economic reasons mate?

 

 

I'm not against independence, jake, I just think that a lot of folk want it for the wrong reasons, however well-intentioned.

[Governor Tarkin]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

No theyre no

 

Ach, you win.

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Ach, you win.

Gid. & dont forget ma da is bigger than your da!