The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Governor Tarkin]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Gid. & dont forget ma da is bigger than your da!

 

But my da has twa boabies an six baws.

[coconut doug]

36 minutes ago, weehammy said:

‘Scots who call themselves Scots’ WTF ???????????
You mean people born in Scotland, just like their parents and grandparents and great grandparents, etc. etc. who are every bit as Scottish as you?

 

Despite yours and others blood and soil credentials many would still rather be British than Scottish. They'd rather look back than forward. They'd rather look at their genes than their aspirations preferring to scrounge from the Barnett formula rather than build their own future.

     Tory England is growing apart from everybody else in the UK and the UK is sinking fast. You can be an ethnic Scotsman if you like but we in Scotland are multi-ethnic now and have a different vision of Scotland to that offered by Westminster governments. A future that can be shaped by all our inhabitants except for the English of course, as we apparently hate them and base all our decision making on trying to be different to them. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

But my da has twa boabies an six baws.

He'll be right prone to a kick in the nadgers then

[Governor Tarkin]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

He'll be right prone to a kick in the nadgers then

 

It's the only reason I made it out of adolescence.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[Pans Jambo]

9 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Despite yours and others blood and soil credentials many would still rather be British than Scottish. They'd rather look back than forward. They'd rather look at their genes than their aspirations preferring to scrounge from the Barnett formula rather than build their own future.

     Tory England is growing apart from everybody else in the UK and the UK is sinking fast. You can be an ethnic Scotsman if you like but we in Scotland are multi-ethnic now and have a different vision of Scotland to that offered by Westminster governments. A future that can be shaped by all our inhabitants except for the English of course, as we apparently hate them and base all our decision making on trying to be different to them. 

Coconut. I didny mention ethnicity. My wife is not “White” or born on these islands and shes a Scottish as feck and stands up for our wee country at every turn. 
Agree with the rest though (apart from the hating the English part) 👍

Edit: No idea why I replied to this. I’m just gonni slink off for ma tea. Blood sugar must be low or something)

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[SpruceBringsteen]

I'll merrily accept the "NATZ H8 ENGLAND" argument as soon as, logically, it's admitted that the 49% of English people who want their country to be independent hate Scotland. 

[Governor Tarkin]

20 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

I'll merrily accept the "NATZ H8 ENGLAND" argument as soon as, logically, it's admitted that the 49% of English people who want their country to be independent hate Scotland. 

 

49% is maybe pushing it, but it'll be a fair chunk of that. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I'm not against independence, jake, I just think that a lot of folk want it for the wrong reasons, however well-intentioned.

 

So what makes you for it if their reasons are wrong?

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

I'll merrily accept the "NATZ H8 ENGLAND" argument as soon as, logically, it's admitted that the 49% of English people who want their country to be independent hate Scotland. 

 

You up for a Union with h1b5? Pooling and sharing, take on the Glasgow cabal, etc etc etc.

 

Why not?

 

This will be good.....

[Governor Tarkin]

33 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

So what makes you for it if their reasons are wrong?

 

Based on your posts that I've read up to this point I see little to gain from discussing it with you. Honestly.

[Roxy Hearts]

4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

That's all well and good, but - the political intellectuals that post on here aside, obviously - you grossly over-estimate the average bread-and-butter Scottish Nationalist.

What about knuckle headed British Nationalists? Thickest people in UK and a lot of them Scots. 

[Space Mackerel]

49 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Based on your posts that I've read up to this point I see little to gain from discussing it with you. Honestly.

I wasn’t wanting a big hoo ha about it, just your reasons for Scottish Independence. They’re more than likely the same as mine.

Cmon, don’t be shy now. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Space Mackerel

[Governor Tarkin]

13 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What about knuckle headed British Nationalists? Thickest people in UK and a lot of them Scots. 

 

They don't hold a monopoly on being thick, but they are certainly up there. Some of them, any way. The ones that are prone to mouthing of with tired slogans, historical yarns, and spurious economic 'facts'.

[Costanza]

The problem with GERS is that on the one hand, you have some Nationalists who bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring and how they would finance a defecit, currency and not spook the financial markets.
I saw some on Twitter today saying an independent Scotland wouldn't need to assume any of the UK debt. Just not credible.

On the other hand, you have unionists who frame the only response to the GERS figures, as deep spending cuts to cover the entire defecit, when in all likelihood it would be a combination of cuts, tax increases and running some kind of defecit, whilst trying to grow the economy.
In addition, some seem to revel in these figures even though it suggests that the UK is effectively mismanaging the Scottish economy to such an extent that it's amongst the worst in Europe.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Union.

Much like Brexit, I'd prefer any discussion in an upcoming referendum to bypass the politicians, and have economists,  legal experts etc. discussing the practicalities and options available rather than another rehash of the same spin and bullshit.

[Roxy Hearts]

12 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

They don't hold a monopoly on being thick, but they are certainly up there. Some of them, any way. The ones that are prone to mouthing of with tired slogans, historical yarns, and spurious economic 'facts'.

Agreed. 

12 minutes ago, Costanza said:

The problem with GERS is that on the one hand, you have some Nationalists who bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring and how they would finance a defecit, currency and not spook the financial markets.
I saw some on Twitter today saying an independent Scotland wouldn't need to assume any of the UK debt. Just not credible.

On the other hand, you have unionists who frame the only response to the GERS figures, as deep spending cuts to cover the entire defecit, when in all likelihood it would be a combination of cuts, tax increases and running some kind of defecit, whilst trying to grow the economy.
In addition, some seem to revel in these figures even though it suggests that the UK is effectively mismanaging the Scottish economy to such an extent that it's amongst the worst in Europe.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Union.

Much like Brexit, I'd prefer any discussion in an upcoming referendum to bypass the politicians, and have economists,  legal experts etc. discussing the practicalities and options available rather than another rehash of the same spin and bullshit.

The British State don't want the truth outed about the economics. Have we ever heard anything about Scotland's real wealth? They don't want to let us go and it's not because they like us, so can only be the viability of Scotland. The current political set up at Westminster is working against us and none of the UK parties have the answers, just insults. 

[jake]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I'm not against independence, jake, I just think that a lot of folk want it for the wrong reasons, however well-intentioned.

That's a problem I agree.

[Space Mackerel]

48 minutes ago, jake said:

That's a problem I agree.

These reasons that you both agree on?  

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, weehammy said:

So it’s impossible to be both Scottish and British?
This debate is revealing views of the type that Nicola and the ‘progressive’ nationalists have denied for years.

 

 

No it isn't and nobody is revealing anything about their so called progressive views other than you. You are the one who equated being Scots with where you are born and where your ancestors came from. Like Pans Jambo many people in my life are not ethnic Scots and like PJ some have strong affinity with Scotland. Is it the inclusivity that you find "progressive"? Do you feel more comfortable with traditional values?

 

I am and always will be British in some sense but now we are being asked to choose and i choose Scottish. You choose British and that's where the difference lies, of course in some sense you are Scottish but your ultimate allegiance lies elsewhere. 

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 Nationalism in a nutshell. 

Yeah, we seen the britnats back in 2014. Nationism is what independence is all about. 

And there's no bad reason for voting for Scottish independence. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Not a truly representative cross-section.

 

 

It read as off the cuff tbf.

 

 

 

*Now who's talking shite.

Scottish Unionists are as Scottish as you are, bud.

Them's the hard facts right there.

 

*Utter Bollox. Scottish or British. End of. Anyone who voted no are British or to be more accurate English. Unionists are Scottish Best laugh I've ever heard, cheers! 

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

*Utter Bollox. Scottish or British. End of. Anyone who voted no are British or to be more accurate English. Unionists are Scottish Best laugh I've ever heard, cheers! 

 

Ever stopped to think that maybe you're pare of the problem, ausseh?

[Pans Jambo]

7 hours ago, weehammy said:

I don’t call myself Scottish. I am Scottish.

You are an embarrassment to the cause you claim to support.

The only thing embarrassing is folk like you endorsing Westminster and all that entails. 

[SwindonJambo]

10 hours ago, Costanza said:

The problem with GERS is that on the one hand, you have some Nationalists who bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring and how they would finance a defecit, currency and not spook the financial markets.
I saw some on Twitter today saying an independent Scotland wouldn't need to assume any of the UK debt. Just not credible.

On the other hand, you have unionists who frame the only response to the GERS figures, as deep spending cuts to cover the entire defecit, when in all likelihood it would be a combination of cuts, tax increases and running some kind of defecit, whilst trying to grow the economy.
In addition, some seem to revel in these figures even though it suggests that the UK is effectively mismanaging the Scottish economy to such an extent that it's amongst the worst in Europe.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Union.

Much like Brexit, I'd prefer any discussion in an upcoming referendum to bypass the politicians, and have economists,  legal experts etc. discussing the practicalities and options available rather than another rehash of the same spin and bullshit.

 

Thank you Costanza. It's nice to see that sensible balanced debate is still possible after wading through all the tedious mud slinging (in both directions). Best post in several pages.

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

some Nationalists who bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring and how they would finance a defecit, currency and not spook the financial markets.

Can you explain how there would even be "initial financial difficulties" and what the "Deficit" would be and how you arrive at that?

 

Its just you use the words "bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring" which sounds like you have an insight into the process and all that entails.

 

I think Currency has been covered a million times. Scotland intends to have its own currency but will initially continue to use Sterling for the first couple of years during transition.

[Pans Jambo]

18 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Anyway the SG want to hand any powers Westminster currently have over to the Germans and the French don't they? I

Sorry to bother you SE but did you manage to find out what powers an Independent Scotland wanted to "hand" to the Germans and French yet???

 

Genuinely interested.

 

I'm all ears!

[SE16 3LN]

17 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

What powers do they want to give to the Germans & French? Which ones? I’m betting you cant name one. 

By prioritising a return to the EU the SG will return sovereign control over food and fishing, Immigration and Trade to the EU, which a the present time is mainly the Germans and the French.You're the one who has demonstrated a lack of knowledge on these issues.

[SE16 3LN]

15 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Many English hate the Scots. What’s your point?

I haven't witnessed that in 37 years living in England, that's my point.

[SE16 3LN]

15 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

What are the GERS figures for England? Or Wales? Or NI? (Equivalents of GERS I mean)

Do they ever get mentioned anywhere?

Are you serious, they're all over the quality press right now.

[SE16 3LN]

20 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Sorry to bother you SE but did you manage to find out what powers an Independent Scotland wanted to "hand" to the Germans and French yet???

 

Genuinely interested.

 

I'm all ears!

Sorry to bother you smart arse but some people work for living. See above for some major examples and please bear in mind the SG knows this to be the case because they're still claiming that Westminster are involved in a power grab over these powers. 

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

By prioritising a return to the EU the SG will return sovereign control over food and fishing, Immigration and Trade to the EU, which a the present time is mainly the Germans and the French.You're the one who has demonstrated a lack of knowledge on these issues.

Food? You mean Food Standards or something else?

Fishing is 50/50 (I know, I work with a lot of them). Some WANT the EU because that's where they sell their products to and others are sold on the "regain our waters back" when in fact the Europeans will still have a right to fish here even after Brexit.

Immigration - Yes please.

Trade to the EU - Yes please

 

You havent told me one power yet. Not one that would make our lives any worse. 

 

How much powers do Westminster have???

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Sorry to bother you smart arse but some people work for living. See above for some major examples and please bear in mind the SG knows this to be the case because they're still claiming that Westminster are involved in a power grab over these powers. 

Well of course they are but thats because things like food standards are currently excellent whereas Westminster wants to bin them so Trump can sell his shite to us.

Major examples? You given me nothing to be alarmed that rejoining the EU would change my life for the worst. We have been part of the EU since the 70's (or at least the EEC).

 

If you are working what are you complaining about being on here? 

[Pans Jambo]

.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[Pans Jambo]

13 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Are you serious, they're all over the quality press right now.

Quality press 

[SE16 3LN]

13 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Quality press 

Either you know what that is or you don't, I'm not spelling it out for you. The wee figure rolling about is always a sure sign someone is playing the man not the ball.

[SE16 3LN]

19 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Well of course they are but thats because things like food standards are currently excellent whereas Westminster wants to bin them so Trump can sell his shite to us.

Major examples? You given me nothing to be alarmed that rejoining the EU would change my life for the worst. We have been part of the EU since the 70's (or at least the EEC).

 

If you are working what are you complaining about being on here? 

You're so angry you're getting you're posts mixed up.

 

You want Scotland for the Scots and you want control of immigration. Sounds like a Scottish white supremacist charter for me, but then again I knew that.

 

I'll back at independence movement in Scotland that sets out a vision for Economic prosperity, equality and opportunity. What you're selling is Nationalist hate.

[SE16 3LN]

27 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Well of course they are but thats because things like food standards are currently excellent whereas Westminster wants to bin them so Trump can sell his shite to us.

Major examples? You given me nothing to be alarmed that rejoining the EU would change my life for the worst. We have been part of the EU since the 70's (or at least the EEC).

 

If you are working what are you complaining about being on here? 

Never mentioned it changing your life for the worse big man, but you can't greet about wanting power for the "indigenous" Scots when you're happy to hand power back to Europe. You're agenda has nothing to do with power and economics and everything to do with Race and Nationality. Admit it and you might win some debates.

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

You're so angry you're getting you're posts mixed up.

 

You want Scotland for the Scots and you want control of immigration. Sounds like a Scottish white supremacist charter for me, but then again I knew that.

 

I'll back at independence movement in Scotland that sets out a vision for Economic prosperity, equality and opportunity. What you're selling is Nationalist hate.

Sorry mate, you're confused. No nationalist hate coming from me. I am open to open borders, working and living in Europe and the Europeans doing the same here. As for "white supremacist", I would be the worst considering my wife is not even white and my son is mixed race!

 

As has been pointed out. Scottishness is not about where you were born.

 

Who's angry? You were the one who got all uppity about being at your work!

[SE16 3LN]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Sorry mate, you're confused. No nationalist hate coming from me. I am open to open borders, working and living in Europe and the Europeans doing the same here. As for "white supremacist", I would be the worst considering my wife is not even white and my son is mixed race!

 

As has been pointed out. Scottishness is not about where you were born.

 

Who's angry? You were the one who got all uppity about being at your work!

So what's all the Scotland for the Scots business and "yes please I want to control immigration"? If you sound like a white supremacist and you're not then you need to re-tune you're channel. Nationalism is always Racist whatever flag you're shagging bud. We learn that from History.

 

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Never mentioned it changing your life for the worse big man, but you can't greet about wanting power for the "indigenous" Scots when you're happy to hand power back to Europe. You're agenda has nothing to do with power and economics and everything to do with Race and Nationality. Admit it and you might win some debates.

You have me pegged all wrong pal. Don't play the race card with me you're wasting your time and showing a bit of ignorance.

This debate is ALL about changing lives for the better. Would our lot be better with Westminster or on our own. Fairly straight forward. There was a time I voted Labour and would have happily had Federalism but that ship has sailed, went on fire, hit an iceberg and sunk!

So...

Scotland as independent and in the EU - 80/85% power to Scotland with rest to EU.

Scotland as part of the UK - 35/40% power to Scotland the rest to Westminster.

 

I know what I would rather have...

 

[SE16 3LN]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

You have me pegged all wrong pal. Don't play the race card with me you're wasting your time and showing a bit of ignorance.

This debate is ALL about changing lives for the better. Would our lot be better with Westminster or on our own. Fairly straight forward. There was a time I voted Labour and would have happily had Federalism but that ship has sailed, went on fire, hit an iceberg and sunk!

So...

Scotland as independent and in the EU - 80/85% power to Scotland with rest to EU.

Scotland as part of the UK - 35/40% power to Scotland the rest to Westminster.

 

I know what I would rather have...

 

Good for you, I'm back to work.

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said:

So what's all the Scotland for the Scots business and "yes please I want to control immigration"? If you sound like a white supremacist and you're not then you need to re-tune you're channel. Nationalism is always Racist whatever flag you're shagging bud. We learn that from History.

 

You misunderstood. 

Immigration - Yes Please. What I meant was yes, let HAVE immigration not lets shut the borders and sink yellow dingys coming up the Forth!

We can work and live in any part of the EU easily just now. That ends in 4 months!

Scottish "nationalism" (as has been pointed out) is a movement of inclusive ,outwardly looking, inspirational, welcoming, nurturing and caring people of all colours, religions and cultures that endorse freedom of movement, fairness and caring for societies vulnerable. No jackboots or brainwashing children welcome!

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Scotland as independent and in the EU - 80/85% power to Scotland with rest to EU.

That is the way to go. Belt and braces for the future. 

[Don Dan]

Stuck this on here. It could even go in the corona thread. 
 

https://apple.news/AVOkvqiYGTLyysSDFGQD9jA

 

Scotland’s pandemic response has seemed like the height of competence compared to the frenzy of U-turns in London, and this has strengthened support for Scottish independence. If not handled carefully, Boris Johnson’s most enduring legacy won’t be Brexit, or his much-criticized handling of the crisis, but the dismantling of Britain’s three-centuries-old union. 

The independence movement looked mortally weakened after the 2014 referendum, in which Scots voted to remain in the U.K. But according to a new poll, support for independence is now more than 55% — no doubt because of the growing perception that the Scottish National Party is a model of responsibility when compared with Johnson’s government.

[Pans Jambo]

34 minutes ago, weehammy said:

The ‘country I say I belong to’? What a total zoomer you are.

You mean the country I’ve lived in for close to seven decades?

You will be talking about the one you like but only if another country is running it...That one?

[jack D and coke]

The way this thread and every other one goes whether it’s on here or any social media makes me think they should have an all or nothing referendum and state that in the decision. It’s Yes and we take responsibility for ourselves or No and the Scottish parliament gets closed down and we accept that we are a region of the UK and not really a country. This half way house and constant squabbling will never end in that case. 

[Space Mackerel]

15 hours ago, weehammy said:

So it’s impossible to be both Scottish and British?
This debate is revealing views of the type that Nicola and the ‘progressive’ nationalists have denied for years.

 

 

You do know me, you and everyone else will still be British after Indy?

[Space Mackerel]

2 hours ago, weehammy said:

I never claimed to be ethnically Scottish because there’s no such thing. I’m just Scottish and, according to my UK passport, British.

 

Does it?

 

[OTT]

20 hours ago, Costanza said:

The problem with GERS is that on the one hand, you have some Nationalists who bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge the initial financial difficulties that independence would bring and how they would finance a defecit, currency and not spook the financial markets.
I saw some on Twitter today saying an independent Scotland wouldn't need to assume any of the UK debt. Just not credible.

On the other hand, you have unionists who frame the only response to the GERS figures, as deep spending cuts to cover the entire defecit, when in all likelihood it would be a combination of cuts, tax increases and running some kind of defecit, whilst trying to grow the economy.
In addition, some seem to revel in these figures even though it suggests that the UK is effectively mismanaging the Scottish economy to such an extent that it's amongst the worst in Europe.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Union.

Much like Brexit, I'd prefer any discussion in an upcoming referendum to bypass the politicians, and have economists,  legal experts etc. discussing the practicalities and options available rather than another rehash of the same spin and bullshit.

 

I think GERS fails to paint an accurate picture of Scotlands finances. There is a distinct lack of transparency with fuels suspicion. Factoring in the suppression of the McCrone report, I don't think its unfair to distrust the UK government in trying to muddy the waters sufficiently to encourage support in the Union. However, I think you're quite correct. Independence will present  a host of challenges which will need to be overcome. To deny this is naive and disingenuous. Its a challenge that should be embraced though as a necessary component of taking control of our affairs as a country, ending fuel poverty, eliminating the need for food banks and so forth. 

 

The UK economy is so concentrated around London, that I don't think GERS can be looked on with any real authenticity as a future projection of how we'd do if Independent. Ireland for example has the 3rd highest standard of living in the world. Why exactly would be so radically different? The economy is an incredibly complicated beast and in the same way that oil isn't the magic answer, nor can it be downplayed to just being 'whisky and shortbread'. 

 

More transparency needs to be given around the Scottish economy as GERS just isn't credible. My feeling is that Unionists or at least, sceptics are insisting on the presentation of data which just isn't there. As i've already said, the economy is incredibly complicated and the UK government through how it calculates GERS doesn't make that any easier to understand. It is, however incumbent on the SNP/YES movement to research this and provide best estimates in good faith. But, over and above that how we would function as a country would likely change, for example, would we spend so much on defence? Perhaps we'd be able to sell energy more efficiently? Changes in laws could open up new industries and create much more revenue. 

 

I think its also worth looking at the political landscape of a post-independent Scotland. I'm doubtful I'd continue voting SNP. I think we'd see various MPs/MSPs leave to take up the colours of other political parties. Labour would probably recover, and we may also get a Scottish Conservative party which better represent Scottish views. I think a lot of SNP voters are feeling a bit dejected with the direction the party is going in. The unaccountable NEC seems to be an ever growing monster in the pursuit of diversity. Its concerning. 

[manaliveits105]

If you are happy to reduce your disposable income by  voting for independence crack on - your income won’t go up but your tax and prices will - Norway Tax levels on Scottish Wages not to mention that we won’t qualify to join EU till our deficit falls to qualifying levels - oh and currency will be Tunnochs Teacakes 

Fortunately we won’t have to worry for at least 5 years possibly 10 

Better Together 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

If you are happy to reduce your disposable income by  voting for independence crack on - your income won’t go up but your tax and prices will - Norway Tax levels on Scottish Wages not to mention that we won’t qualify to join EU till our deficit falls to qualifying levels - oh and currency will be Tunnochs Teacakes 

Fortunately we won’t have to worry for at least 5 years possibly 10 

Better Together 

 

"oh and currency will be Tunnochs Teacakes"

 

😁