Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[JudyJudyJudy]

38 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

In people’s houses. 

Yeah seems to be 

[JudyJudyJudy]

37 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

That is scandalous James. I hope your mate gets some positive news. Yes, the only positive from this year is that we may now have to have the grown up conversation about the NHS that is years overdue. It needs a complete re-think. How do we pay for it? What treatment should it be providing etc?. Eventually, some form of private medical insurance will have to become the norm for those who can afford it. Yes, free at the point of delivery for all who need it but we need to move to the kind of efficient,  hybrid service that Germany,  for example,  has. And ffs, regardless of what the BMA say, we must fall into line with nearly every other country in the world and charge tourists and visitors for treatment. 

👍

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 minutes ago, And he’s not praying! said:

You could always add a ‘🤣’ for every death in reply to him?

 

 

 

It was really just a wee dig at him playing the grim reaper. Try not to build it into something it wasn't.

[coconut doug]

17 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Nobody tells us exactly what factors are being considered but check the rate per 100,000 in Edinburgh City compared to other Tier 3s. We’re just expected to do as we’re told - or else she’ll put it in law. Reporting Glasgow on BBC asks no questions but just keeps repeating, ‘The First Minister said.......’

 

But let’s see:

Can’t upset SNP heartland voters by putting Lanarkshire into 4

Cant upset SNP heartland voters by having Edinburgh below Glasgow

Edinburgh was big NO vote centre so **** them!

 

If I’m wrong just give us the information.
 

 

 

 

They do tell us exactly what factors are considered and being next to an area where the incidence is higher is considered important as is the amount of cross border travel. The level of infection is obviously important as is the rate of change in infection levels. The ability of the NHS and other services to cope should there be an increase in hospitalisations may currently be the biggest consideration.

      I really don't understand your heartland comments. Are you suggesting that Edinburgh is being overly protected because more people voted No than in Lanarkshire or Glasgow? Do you think they are being punished by the SNP government because they wont allow the opening of pubs? Is that it? Is that the basis of your claim that Edinburgh is being treated unfairly?

[Taffin]

37 minutes ago, FWJ said:

The government do pass legislation to try to keep us safe (and alive).  From compulsory crash helmets and seat belts to drink-drive laws and speed limits.  From minimum unit alcohol pricing to very heavily taxed cigarettes to the sugar tax on sweetened soft drinks.

They’re trying to do it with junk food.

 

And every.single. time. people b***h and moan and talk about the ‘Nanny State’ and the erosion of civil liberties.

 

In this instance people are moaning because they feel the government are doing the opposite of that. Shutting the place I improve my physical and mental health, isolating me from my loved ones and putting my livelihood at risk doesn't feel like the actions of someone "keeping me safe". 🤔🤔🤔

 

Ultimately the majority are paying financially, physically and mentally to keep others safe and alive. I'm neither arguing for or against that but let's not pretend the government are improving the safety of the majority of people here.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Taffin

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

That is scandalous James. I hope your mate gets some positive news. Yes, the only positive from this year is that we may now have to have the grown up conversation about the NHS that is years overdue. It needs a complete re-think. How do we pay for it? What treatment should it be providing etc?. Eventually, some form of private medical insurance will have to become the norm for those who can afford it. Yes, free at the point of delivery for all who need it but we need to move to the kind of efficient,  hybrid service that Germany,  for example,  has. And ffs, regardless of what the BMA say, we must fall into line with nearly every other country in the world and charge tourists and visitors for treatment. 

 

Nobody is stopping you having medical insurance. You can't have an efficient country like Germany until you educate and upskill the people here. You have to tax people properly as well so we can afford to pay for socialised medicine unless of course you don't want to invest in people and technology and prefer low tax rates. 

 

We already do charge people from abroad who use our health service.

[Dennis Reynolds]

4 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Nobody is stopping you having medical insurance. You can't have an efficient country like Germany until you educate and upskill the people here. You have to tax people properly as well so we can afford to pay for socialised medicine unless of course you don't want to invest in people and technology and prefer low tax rates. 

 

We already do charge people from abroad who use our health service.

 

👏

[Governor Tarkin]

 

 

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

Of course i am aware of the factors involved. I listen to the daily briefings after all. Edinburgh should be in Tier 3 because it matches the tier 3 criteria more accurately. The other poster says it does not and i just asked him why.

 

I don't get to watch the daily briefings, doug, so any chance of a recap? 

 

1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

My take on it is Edinburgh is in lockdown because if it wasn't there would be hoardes from the west piling through to get away from there's every weekend. 

 

If this isn't top of doug's list I'll be absolutely amazed.

[Victorian]

An extended family in the Rhondda Valley have had 13 family members infected.  Elderly man lost his wife and 2 sons in their 40s over 5 days.

 

Vermin on social media have been persecuting them by questioning whether or not they died of covid.

 

 

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

So where’s the ‘Science’ in that theory?
Have hordes of Edinburgh and Lothians been piling into Fife over the past fortnight?

 

People on here claiming to do exactly that.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

People on here claiming to do exactly that.

So why have different tiers if it’s beneficial that adjacent regions are in the same tier? 

[coconut doug]

Just now, GinRummy said:

So why have different tiers if it’s beneficial that adjacent regions are in the same tier? 

 

Because its not the only factor.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

Because its not the only factor.

Do you think there a rate of infection that Edinburgh could go under that would reduce their tier status if Glasgow’s infection rate continues to rise?

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Do you think there a rate of infection that Edinburgh could go under that would reduce their tier status if Glasgow’s infection rate continues to rise?

Yes

[GinRummy]

Just now, coconut doug said:

Yes

Care to expand on that?

[The Real Maroonblood]

15 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Because its not the only factor.

So if Glasgow goes into Tier 4 should Edinburgh follow suit?

[GinRummy]

‘First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said it would mean a part of the country with low rates would not have to live with the same restrictions as one with a high rate’

 

Rubbish.  Scotland is a tiny country with the bulk of its population in the central belt, 45 minutes on a train apart. 
 

 

[FWJ]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

So if Glasgow goes into Tier 4 should Edinburgh follow suit?

As someone pointed out, if the authorities are “erring on the side of caution” Glasgow & Lanarkshire (and possibly Dumbartonshire and Ayrshire) should currently be in tier 4.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, FWJ said:

As someone pointed out, if the authorities are “erring on the side of caution” Glasgow & Lanarkshire (and possibly Dumbartonshire and Ayrshire) should currently be in tier 4.

Agreed. 

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

An extended family in the Rhondda Valley have had 13 family members infected.  Elderly man lost his wife and 2 sons in their 40s over 5 days.

 

Vermin on social media have been persecuting them by questioning whether or not they died of covid.

 

 

 

Lots of vermin on this thread have previous for that. 

[FWJ]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Depends what you view the proper role of government to be.

And there are as many views on that as there are people.

[fabienleclerq]

2 hours ago, weehammy said:

So where’s the ‘Science’ in that theory?
Have hordes of Edinburgh and Lothians been piling into Fife over the past fortnight?

Aye. 

[Nucky Thompson]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

An extended family in the Rhondda Valley have had 13 family members infected.  Elderly man lost his wife and 2 sons in their 40s over 5 days.

 

Vermin on social media have been persecuting them by questioning whether or not they died of covid.

 

 

I saw the report on CH4 news. The family members who died of Covid all had underlying health conditions.

The virus is deadly to the old, vulnerable and obese, that's for sure

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

Nobody is stopping you having medical insurance. You can't have an efficient country like Germany until you educate and upskill the people here. You have to tax people properly as well so we can afford to pay for socialised medicine unless of course you don't want to invest in people and technology and prefer low tax rates. 

 

We already do charge people from abroad who use our health service.

I think we would need the work ethic and self-responsibility that the Germans possess tbh. 

We may also have to be prepared to pay for basic health care services like GP visits, prescriptions and hospital stays, as they do in Ireland, for example.  

The NHS haemorrhages millions of pounds each year due to uncollected hospital fees from visitors from abroad, partly due to the reluctance of doctors and hospital staff to ensure all treatment is paid for. 

[spirt of 98]

12 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

Aye. 

Loads doing it and some heading to Englandshire prior to them locking down. 
 

We would be as well sacking the restrictions nobody pays much attention to them. 

[coconut doug]

41 minutes ago, weehammy said:

So it turns out that, contrary to what she has said, the Scottish people cannot be trusted. We live in a tiny country where local authorities often sit cheek by jowl. How come Fife and Borders had different restrictions? Wasn’t there a fear people from the Lothians would sneak backwards and forwards? What’s the point of assigning tiers by local authority if you’re stuck in a tier due to lesser compliance in other parts of the administratively non-existent central belt’?

The heartland comments reflect a view that I’m not alone in having , that firmer and earlier action in Glasgow and Lanarkshire might have avoided some what they’re now experiencing.

 

How does this mean that Scottish people can't be trusted? We know some people break the rules and the prevalence of that is going to vary as will the consequences. How is this "contrary to what she has said"?

 

All local authorities everywhere sit "cheek by jowl" by their very nature unless they are islands. We've just been explaining to you why different areas have different tiers. The parameters we use to judge the tiers are complex and government needs to come to a composite view. It then allocates a tier level to each local authority. It could do this for each village town or individual but that would be too complicated so we settle for local authorities. We have to draw the lines somewhere if we are to allow as much normality as possible while protecting as many as possible from the virus. Your point about the "administratively non-existent central belt" shows that you still haven't assimilated how tiers are arrived at. Lesser compliance is only one of several factors used to allocate tier levels.

 

    It is indeed true imo that firmer and earlier action in Glasgow and Lanarkshire might have avoided some of what they are experiencing now. I really don't see what that has to do with those being SNP heartlands. If they have been favoured or disadvantaged i don't see how. Maybe the location of the Louisa Jordan means they are less stretched for hospital beds.

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

‘People on here’! Oh well that must be correct, although I generally get my info in the queue at Greggs.

 

It is absolutely correct. Did you miss this? 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

34 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Depends what you view the proper role of government to be.

I think the main role of Govt is to keep its people safe  and secure whilst also respecting the right of choice people have in making their own decisions about how they live their lives . They can advise people adhere to healthy lifestyles but it needs to be an individuals choice on how they live their lives . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

24 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I saw the report on CH4 news. The family members who died of Covid all had underlying health conditions.

The virus is deadly to the old, vulnerable and obese, that's for sure

Yes I wondered about their health conditions so it doesn’t surprise me what happened 

[coconut doug]

20 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I think we would need the work ethic and self-responsibility that the Germans possess tbh. 

We may also have to be prepared to pay for basic health care services like GP visits, prescriptions and hospital stays, as they do in Ireland, for example.  

The NHS haemorrhages millions of pounds each year due to uncollected hospital fees from visitors from abroad, partly due to the reluctance of doctors and hospital staff to ensure all treatment is paid for. 

 

We are witnessing corruption and incompetence on an unprecedented scale in this pandemic as a result privatising services and you want more.

 

Sounds like you also want medical staff act as bailiffs. How can doctors make sure everybody pays,unless you are going deny medical services to the poor? The money lost in this way each year is tiny compared to the NHS budget.

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, coconut doug said:

 

We are witnessing corruption and incompetence on an unprecedented scale in this pandemic as a result privatising services and you want more.

 

Sounds like you also want medical staff act as bailiffs. How can doctors make sure everybody pays,unless you are going deny medical services to the poor? The money lost in this way each year is tiny compared to the NHS budget.

How do they charge you if you need hospital treatment in the US? You pay by card and claim it back on travel insurance.  The incompetence in hospitals comes from an inept and bureaucratic management tier, wasteful procurement practices etc etc . It needs a root and branch review and politicians from all sides, with the cojones to put their differences aside and have a grown up conversation about it's future. Throwing endless amounts of money down a black hole, is not the answer.

[JFK-1]

I just got a message telling me that my 84 year old father who has dementia and has been in a round the clock care centre for over a year has tested positive.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, JFK-1 said:

I just got a message telling me that my 84 year old father who has dementia and has been in a round the clock care centre for over a year has tested positive.

Ffs man that shit news, fingers crossed🤞

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I just got a message telling me that my 84 year old father who has dementia and has been in a round the clock care centre for over a year has tested positive.

Sorry to hear that news. Fingers crossed for your Dad.

[coconut doug]

13 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

How do they charge you if you need hospital treatment in the US? You pay by card and claim it back on travel insurance.  The incompetence in hospitals comes from an inept and bureaucratic management tier, wasteful procurement practices etc etc . It needs a root and branch review and politicians from all sides, with the cojones to put their differences aside and have a grown up conversation about it's future. Throwing endless amounts of money down a black hole, is not the answer.

 The nhs is the best system in the world. It's one of the few things in the UK worth having nowadays. Even some Tories like it. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/14/nhs-holds-on-to-top-spot-in-healthcare-survey The american system is unsurprisingly the worst. I don't want to live in a society where the sick and dying have their credit card numbers taken before the get treatment or are refused treatment because they have no money or insurance. I watched poor people struggling with Covid being refused entry to a hospital in the US. I think the pubs are open though.

  The NHS had loads of root and branch reforms to little avail which have probably damaged it. We spend less per capita than most other countries. It gives us great value for money making your "Throwing endless amounts of money down a black hole" look just like the pathetic Tory propaganda it is. Nobody is throwing money at it, least of all the Tories. It is our most revered institution with many employees working way beyond minimum requirement but you want to destroy it. When the goodwill is gone and people stop caring the NHS will not become more efficient.

[coconut doug]

5 minutes ago, weehammy said:

What a loyal foot soldier you are, and how fortunate I am to have the benefit of your wisdom in order to help me ‘assimilate’. ‘We’ve been explaining’ (must have missed that). Much of your post consists of corporate/HR-type garbage that doesn’t really say anything.

 Once again it seems you can't discuss the issues. If you managed to assimilate why do you keep asking the same question?

Giving you detailed information and reasoned argument does not equate to "corporate/HR-type garbage that doesn’t really say anything." it just means that either you don't understand or you can't form a coherent argument. We've been her before and you try to exit via an insult.

 

Simple question in response to your statement How does this mean that Scottish people can't be trusted? You didn't answer it, why not? 

[King prawn]

Interestingly a friend of mine has now tested negative twice despite living with his girlfriend who has tested positive and has symptoms including a fever and cough. Not sure how he’s managed that after nearly a week... 

[Enzo Chiefo]

11 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 The nhs is the best system in the world. It's one of the few things in the UK worth having nowadays. Even some Tories like it. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/14/nhs-holds-on-to-top-spot-in-healthcare-survey The american system is unsurprisingly the worst. I don't want to live in a society where the sick and dying have their credit card numbers taken before the get treatment or are refused treatment because they have no money or insurance. I watched poor people struggling with Covid being refused entry to a hospital in the US. I think the pubs are open though.

  The NHS had loads of root and branch reforms to little avail which have probably damaged it. We spend less per capita than most other countries. It gives us great value for money making your "Throwing endless amounts of money down a black hole" look just like the pathetic Tory propaganda it is. Nobody is throwing money at it, least of all the Tories. It is our most revered institution with many employees working way beyond minimum requirement but you want to destroy it. When the goodwill is gone and people stop caring the NHS will not become more efficient.

 Everyone who comes into hospital provides their details anyway, if you are a visitor of course you should pay for it. We are the outliers on this around the world and those who advocate free treatment for all and sundry are also the ones who bleat about lack of funds. The BMA being a prime example. Treatment is given and then paid for afterwards. What's the problem? 

Where did I say I wanted to "destroy it"?? The fact that it is revered doesn't mean it should not be criticised at the same time. I'm advocating a hybrid system , similar to Germany's.  We already provide dental treatment on this basis.  I think we all agree that the staff do an exceptional job but that should not stop us having a grown up conversation about it's faults too. It is rightly revered but outcomes are the most important measure and for many thousands stuck on lengthy waiting lists , it's not delivering.  Throwing endless amounts of money at it is not the solution. 

[gjcc]

12 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Another one? FFS you don't need to be a nurse to hand out medicines. There is no legal requirement as someone earlier said. Staff in Superdrug hand out medicines, Asda as well.

It is not the pharmacist who hands over the medicines, that can be done by someone without a degree in whatever.

In a ward setting nurses are legally accountable for what they give. They need to have knowledge of what they are giving to people and the side effects/contraindications. They make clinical judgements as to giving or in fact withholding medications and require to justify their reasons.
 

Also responsible for “as required”/PRN medications as well as following local governance with patient group directives. They are in charge of controlled drugs and need to audit them in a stringent process. 

Nurses can also lose their job/registration for not picking up on errors made by doctors and pharmacists. 
 

I fully agree a layman could help out with some nursing tasks but doing a medication round isn’t one of them.in short: It’s not simply “handing over medicine.” There’s a degree of clinical judgement involved. 

[Governor Tarkin]

56 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I just got a message telling me that my 84 year old father who has dementia and has been in a round the clock care centre for over a year has tested positive.

 

Best wishes to you and yours, JFK. Hope your old fella gets through it unscathed and as quickly as possible.

 

Peace and love. ✌❤

 

18 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

 Everyone who comes into hospital provides their details anyway, if you are a visitor of course you should pay for it. We are the outliers on this around the world and those who advocate free treatment for all and sundry are also the ones who bleat about lack of funds. The BMA being a prime example. Treatment is given and then paid for afterwards. What's the problem? 

Where did I say I wanted to "destroy it"?? The fact that it is revered doesn't mean it should not be criticised at the same time. I'm advocating a hybrid system , similar to Germany's.  We already provide dental treatment on this basis.  I think we all agree that the staff do an exceptional job but that should not stop us having a grown up conversation about it's faults too. It is rightly revered but outcomes are the most important measure and for many thousands stuck on lengthy waiting lists , it's not delivering.  Throwing endless amounts of money at it is not the solution. 

 

That's A Tory too Far for me, Enzo.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[CJGJ]

End of year for testing to be complete re vaccine from Astra Zeneca

 

It could just be that by end of quarter 1 of 2021 we will have a cure for the majority which will be distributed

 

Fingers crossed it truly works

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Coronavirus: Denmark imposes lockdowns amid mink covid fears https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54833459

[Enzo Chiefo]

11 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Best wishes to you and yours, JFK. Hope your old fella gets through it unscathed and as quickly as possible.

 

Peace and love. ✌❤

 

 

That's A Tory too Far for me, Enzo.

 

I always thought you were a card carrying Tory too, Guv.  😎

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Coronavirus: Denmark imposes lockdowns amid mink covid fears https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54833459

Scotland's R rate now thought to be between 0.9 and 1.1, according to Scot Gov report. Cases doubling every 45 days, compared to every 9 days less than a month ago. 

Edinburgh pubs and restaurants hopefully opening up again in the next week or so.🍺🍺

[JFK-1]

20 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Best wishes to you and yours, JFK. Hope your old fella gets through it unscathed and as quickly as possible.

 

Currently no sign of any symptoms, checking his oxygen levels every 4 hours.

[Governor Tarkin]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I always thought you were a card carrying Tory too, Guv.  😎

 

Wooly minded, tree hugging, leftie, Enzo. I sometimes have trouble squaring it with the racism, intolerance, and general hatred of the poor, but it makes me feel good about myself.

[Governor Tarkin]

2 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Currently no sign of any symptoms, checking his oxygen levels every 4 hours.

 

🤞 Well hopefully it stays that way. 👍

[CJGJ]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Wouldn't hold your breath. Keeping restrictions tight across the central belt might just be her strategy to keep things tamped down until Christmas.

I think she is trying to avoid treating Edinburgh and Glasgow differently

 

All we would hear is the bleating from the west about how Edinburgh always benefits in comparison and the bottle to be open and honest is just not there

 

Imagine fans allowed in Edinburgh and yet barred in Glasgow for example

[ArcticJambo]

11 hours ago, escobri said:

Furlough extension means lockdowns to continue all winter. Mass testing rolled out will probably set up a good base for mass vaccination, no jag = no job/travel?. Starting to not like where this is heading.

Watch this space.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Wouldn't hold your breath. Keeping restrictions tight across the central belt might just be her strategy to keep things tamped down until Christmas.

Yes I Think so too 

Edited November 6, 2020 by JamesM48