Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Jambo-Jimbo]

14 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I disagree. They're trying to be more focussed on the areas that need action, which is a good thing. What I want to see is transparency and fairness when it comes to designating areas as falling within the various tiers.

 

You could be waiting a while, Red.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Jambo-Jimbo

[vegas-voss]

14 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

He's been medically retired with Long Covid already? 

I know a guy at my work who couldn't get medical retirement even though he had terminal cancer. He was forced to work til he dropped.

Stepping down right away there decision I think but yes retirement.

Edited October 28, 2020 by vegas-voss

[Enzo Chiefo]

12 minutes ago, flogel41 said:

I have had a real issue since the start of this whole thing with scientific opinion being presented as fact when it isn’t. There has also been a rush to publish to pre print servers ,which aren’t peer reviewed, which are being scoured by the media and getting into wider circulation without any of the usual checks and balances. There is widespread confirmation bias in action from all sides.

 

The only real evidence based progress being made is in treatment with the dexamethasone study being the best example.

 

The scientific method is robust but needs clear definition of terms, robust review and the willingness to change tack if evidence says so. All of this is lacking.

 

There has been no wavering from the lockdown, suppress, Hope for vaccine approach from all UK governments. Instead of reviewing this approach with evidence around super spreaders, high risk groups, hospital/care home transmissions etc it has been a case of changing which figures are used to unwaveringly stick to their ill defined approach.

 

Governments are under no scrutiny at the moment and are hiding behind “science” to justify bad decisions.

 

Sorry, I’ve had that rant pent up inside for a wee while!

 

That's spot on. Exactly what I'm thinking about the whole flawed approach.  

[husref musemic]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Moving the elderly into care homes from hospital.

 

All anybody has to realise is that suddenly almost overnight hundreds/thousands of spaces were found in care homes for elderly patients, some of whom had been stuck in hospital for weeks, months and on more than a few occasions years, because there was no space for them to go anywhere else.

 

It would take a serious amount of clout/pressure to get things to change that quickly, I think what we seen today with the sweep sweep sweep operation, gives us an indication of perhaps how far up the food chain decisions may have been taken.

 

I think the answer to that question is here.

 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/leaked-letter-reveals-ministers-praise-and-challenging-targets-for-hospitals-told-to-move-patients-into-homesministers-do-not-know-the-individual-clinical/

[Shanks said no]

10 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Moving the elderly into care homes from hospital.

 

All anybody has to realise is that suddenly almost overnight hundreds/thousands of spaces were found in care homes for elderly patients, some of whom had been stuck in hospital for weeks, months and on more than a few occasions years, because there was no space for them to go anywhere else.

 

It would take a serious amount of clout/pressure to get things to change that quickly, I think what we seen today with the sweep sweep sweep operation, gives us an indication of perhaps how far up the food chain decisions may have been taken.

 

 

Agree completely. The decision must have been taken at a national level, likely via NHS Scotland. There are 14 territorial boards eg NHS Lothian, this decision was across those boards, it wasn't senior management in Lothian that came up with it.

 

Each NHS Board is accountable to Scottish Ministers, supported by the Scottish Government Health and Social Care Directorates. Someone, somewhere came up with this plan and it had to have involved Scottish Ministers. As others have said there is mega sweeping going on here and the public really shouldn't buy it.

 

Edit - just saw @husref musemic post and there lies the blame.

Edited October 28, 2020 by The Frenchman Returns

[Enzo Chiefo]

10 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Hopefully not as there is a criminal investigation ongoing.

 

People who have lost loved ones in care homes have been contacted by the PF's office

Wee Burney's days in power are numbered. There are only so many lies she can tell before the roof caves in on her. With the spate of non-minuted meetings,  hiding behind party/govt business to suit, redacted files, obstructing inquiries, suppressed files, cover ups...care homes, Nike etc etc, she will be lucky to survive until the next election. 

[steve123]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Wee Burney's days in power are numbered. There are only so many lies she can tell before the roof caves in on her. With the spate of non-minuted meetings,  hiding behind party/govt business to suit, redacted files, obstructing inquiries, suppressed files, cover ups...care homes, Nike etc etc, she will be lucky to survive until the next election. 

One can only hope, however unfortunately does not seem to be much there to challenge her.

[The Real Maroonblood]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Wee Burney's days in power are numbered. There are only so many lies she can tell before the roof caves in on her. With the spate of non-minuted meetings,  hiding behind party/govt business to suit, redacted files, obstructing inquiries, suppressed files, cover ups...care homes, Nike etc etc, she will be lucky to survive until the next election. 

[Ron Burgundy]

8 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Wee Burney's days in power are numbered. There are only so many lies she can tell before the roof caves in on her. With the spate of non-minuted meetings,  hiding behind party/govt business to suit, redacted files, obstructing inquiries, suppressed files, cover ups...care homes, Nike etc etc, she will be lucky to survive until the next election. 

I hope so but I think the SNP plan of dumbing down the nation through poor education and then playing the blame game is actually proving quite successful.

 

There are still people who actually thinks she is doing a great job. I can't get my head round it.

[flogel41]

15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

That's not a rant, Flogel, that's a set of facts. Thank you for summarising so well.

Seeing as I started I would also add that “science” has been predicting the risk of a pandemic for years and it’s clear governments have not taken them seriously enough.

 

there was a tracker app launched in 2014/15 to help understand how a virus would spread through the population I’m sure it was backed by the bbc.
 

im also pretty sure I read a paper years ago predicting a virus spreading from bats but it’s impossible to find now on a search due to all the current stuff.

 

this whole situation could have been better managed if the government took listening to scientists more seriously 10 years ago!

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I hope so but I think the SNP plan of dumbing down the nation through poor education and then playing the blame game is actually proving quite successful.

 

There are still people who actually thinks she is doing a great job. I can't get my head round it.

As far as the pubs go she’s doing a shit job.

[Ron Burgundy]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

As far as the pubs go she’s doing a shit job.

I think the whole hospitality industry is goosed thanks to her.

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

8 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I hope so but I think the SNP plan of dumbing down the nation through poor education and then playing the blame game is actually proving quite successful.

 

There are still people who actually thinks she is doing a great job. I can't get my head round it.

She is doing a great job I think

 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, CJGJ said:

Tell that to my neighbour you stupid ***** who caught it from one of those moved into his care home,.......the idiot little smiley does you no favours

 

Stop being an arsehole, it was pretty obvious that I was having a go at the result of an inquiry announced today.

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I think the whole hospitality industry is goosed thanks to her.

 

A really sad state of affairs.

 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I think that you and @graygo are in agreement. He was ridiculing the assertion that the moving of covid-positive elderly patients into care homes had no real effect. As far as I'm reading his post anyway.

 

1 hour ago, SteauaNeedarest said:

 

I think @graygo was just ridiculing Sturgeon making this point earlier in her daily briefing.

 

Exactly. Too subtle maybe.

[graygo]

1 hour ago, CJGJ said:

If so I apologise...sore subject matter

No bother 

 

If I'd kept reading the thread I wouldn't have posted my earlier reply.

[Ron Burgundy]

2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

A really sad state of affairs.

 

It is for many reasons. People's jobs gone. Some folk's only social outlet. . Whole thing is one giant cluster f****.

[husref musemic]

8 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Freeman has been close to invisible recently and for much of the pandemic’s duration while the Dear Leader has hogged the limelight.

Shes only the HEALTH minister after all.
But look out for much of the post-pandemic criticism heading Freeman’s rather than Sturgeon’s way.

Freeman is about to retire. 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree no one will take a fall but they sure as hell should.

And the people who's stupidity in making that decision to unwittingly kill off these elderly folk are now doing the same to the economy and kids futures.

 

Jeane Freeman would be my bet for taking the fall when the time comes. It was her who pressurised the clinicians to empty the hospital beds in preparation of Covid-19 patients needing treatment.

[Ron Burgundy]

17 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

She is doing a great job I think

 

You are entitled to think that and I apologise for the previous post you reported.

Hope we are still mates.

 

[Captain Sausage]

Boy who sits next to me at work has just tested positive. 
 

Thankfully I haven’t been in since last Tuesday so hopefully not been infected. 

[graygo]

5 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Jeane Freeman would be my bet for taking the fall when the time comes. It was her who pressurised the clinicians to empty the hospital beds in preparation of Covid-19 patients needing treatment.

 

Wouldn't have posted the above if I'd seen the below 

 

 

44 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

I think the answer to that question is here.

 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/leaked-letter-reveals-ministers-praise-and-challenging-targets-for-hospitals-told-to-move-patients-into-homesministers-do-not-know-the-individual-clinical/

 

[husref musemic]

8 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Wouldn't have posted the above if I'd seen the below 

 

 

 

she's on radio Scotland waffling now.

[Nucky Thompson]

45 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Wee Burney's days in power are numbered. There are only so many lies she can tell before the roof caves in on her. With the spate of non-minuted meetings,  hiding behind party/govt business to suit, redacted files, obstructing inquiries, suppressed files, cover ups...care homes, Nike etc etc, she will be lucky to survive until the next election. 

The shit should hit the fan, but no doubt the Murrell Mafia will have some lackey, scapegoat lined up to take the flak  

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Perhaps they record the real cause of death for their citizens instead of just using Covid 19, regardless of whether patient was suffering from other illnesses or disease that would have killed them anyway.

 

For country of our size, the figures we have are atrocious, but given we sent out positive infections into Care homes, not really a surprise. Anyone resigned over that decision yet, or are we just sweeping it under the carpet. 

People don't seem to get so angry these days when the S word is mentioned!

[OBE]

10 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Boy who sits next to me at work has just tested positive. 
 

Thankfully I haven’t been in since last Tuesday so hopefully not been infected. 

 

Unfortunate for the boy. Hands, face and space, you'll be fine...

[Francis Albert]

32 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

She is doing a great job I think

 

You surprise me.

[Shanks said no]

3 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

she's on radio Scotland waffling now.

 

OMFG just turned it on, she is claiming she is still part of the decision making process.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

30 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

She is doing a great job I think

 

 

And I think if she shat on your heid, you'd still clap like a performing seal.

[Victorian]

France and Germany concerned about the impact on their health systems.  The same concern exists here and that's why we'll probably end up in a more general lockdown or have an extended period in the higher tiers of the tier system.

 

Someone pointed out that this wave probably wont result in quite the same death rate.  Absolutely correct.  People are being successfully treated in hospital and long may it continue.  The key point that keeps being ignored,  willfully imo,  is a matter of scale / volume.  The trajectory of this wave will result in scale of hospitalisation greatly over-topping resources.  By a magnitude.  People will only continue to be successfully treated if the hospitals can manage the volume of patients.  

 

You could apply a notional death rate of 0.00% to covid on the basis of everyone being saved through treatment.  If you have 5 times as many people as you can treat... guess what.   

 

Uk and beyond,  suppression is actually now suppression & regulate.  Regulation of health system demand.  

Edited October 28, 2020 by Victorian

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

The shit should hit the fan, but no doubt the Murrell Mafia will have some lackey, scapegoat lined up to take the flak  

 

Oh, I think that position has well and truly been taken, by all accounts.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, husref musemic said:

I think the answer to that question is here.

 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/leaked-letter-reveals-ministers-praise-and-challenging-targets-for-hospitals-told-to-move-patients-into-homesministers-do-not-know-the-individual-clinical/

 

1 hour ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

 

Agree completely. The decision must have been taken at a national level, likely via NHS Scotland. There are 14 territorial boards eg NHS Lothian, this decision was across those boards, it wasn't senior management in Lothian that came up with it.

 

Each NHS Board is accountable to Scottish Ministers, supported by the Scottish Government Health and Social Care Directorates. Someone, somewhere came up with this plan and it had to have involved Scottish Ministers. As others have said there is mega sweeping going on here and the public really shouldn't buy it.

 

Edit - just saw @husref musemic post and there lies the blame.

 

I think we all knew that sort of decision had to have come from fairly high up the food chain.

[Captain Sausage]

8 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

Unfortunate for the boy. Hands, face and space, you'll be fine...

Thankfully he’s alright, just mild symptoms. 
 

It’s been 7 days since I last seen him and I’m feeling fine - hoping that means no issues. 

[Bull's-eye]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

France and Germany concerned about the impact on their health systems.  The same concern exists here and that's why we'll probably end up in a more general lockdown or have an extended period in the higher tiers of the tier system.

 

Someone pointed out that this wave probably wont result in quite the same death rate.  Absolutely correct.  People are being successfully treated in hospital and long may it continue.  The key point that keeps being ignored,  willfully imo,  is a matter of scale / volume.  The trajectory of this wave will result in scale of hospitalisation greatly over-topping resources.  By a magnitude.  People will only continue to be successfully treated if the hospitals can manage the volume of patients.  

 

You could apply a notional death rate of 0.00% to covid on the basis of everyone being saved through treatment.  If you have 5 times as many people as you can treat... guess what.   

 

Uk and beyond,  suppression is actually now suppression & regulate.  Regulation of health system demand.  

 

Are you Shan Lieson  ?

 

So many words saying the square root of zilch.

[steve123]

Interesting episode this afternoon , working away and suddenly there is a knocking at my front door as though they are trying to come through it - I thought the wife must have forgotten her key or the young one was playing but no to my surprise it was folk from the cat & dog home wanting me to sign up for some d/d.

 

I was pretty surprised with this, nothing against the cat and dog home but did not think they would be allowed to be going door to door at this time.

[Don Dan]

14 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

she's on radio Scotland waffling now.

She needs to be confronted with the Sunday Post piece but I doubt any journalist has the cahoonies to do it. 

[hmfcbilly]

1 hour ago, flogel41 said:

I have had a real issue since the start of this whole thing with scientific opinion being presented as fact when it isn’t. There has also been a rush to publish to pre print servers ,which aren’t peer reviewed, which are being scoured by the media and getting into wider circulation without any of the usual checks and balances. There is widespread confirmation bias in action from all sides.

 

The only real evidence based progress being made is in treatment with the dexamethasone study being the best example.

 

The scientific method is robust but needs clear definition of terms, robust review and the willingness to change tack if evidence says so. All of this is lacking.

 

There has been no wavering from the lockdown, suppress, Hope for vaccine approach from all UK governments. Instead of reviewing this approach with evidence around super spreaders, high risk groups, hospital/care home transmissions etc it has been a case of changing which figures are used to unwaveringly stick to their ill defined approach.

 

Governments are under no scrutiny at the moment and are hiding behind “science” to justify bad decisions.

 

Sorry, I’ve had that rant pent up inside for a wee while!

 

Great Post and well put. Been bumbling along nicely for 7 months now

[Nucky Thompson]

1 minute ago, steve123 said:

 

 

I was pretty surprised with this, nothing against the cat and dog home but did not think they would be allowed to be going door to door at this time.

You wouldn't think so if the bairns aren't allowed to chap doors at Halloween.

Probably scammers 

[Francis Albert]

Boris apparently consulted the Swedish epidemiologist leading their respose before the latest round of lock downs. His strategy was to have localised restrictions applied to specific areas where the virus was spreading and he said this meant potentially towns and cities or districts within towns and cities or even workplaces. We have gone for blanket restrictions over whole regions and even countries within the UK just as we did in the first wave.

And in Scotland we look like taking that blanket approach to an extreme even beyond that in Emgland by not discriminating between the City of Edinburgh and the Greater Glasgow conurbation with their hugely different rates of infection.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

France and Germany concerned about the impact on their health systems.  The same concern exists here and that's why we'll probably end up in a more general lockdown or have an extended period in the higher tiers of the tier system.

 

Someone pointed out that this wave probably wont result in quite the same death rate.  Absolutely correct.  People are being successfully treated in hospital and long may it continue.  The key point that keeps being ignored,  willfully imo,  is a matter of scale / volume.  The trajectory of this wave will result in scale of hospitalisation greatly over-topping resources.  By a magnitude.  People will only continue to be successfully treated if the hospitals can manage the volume of patients.  

 

You could apply a notional death rate of 0.00% to covid on the basis of everyone being saved through treatment.  If you have 5 times as many people as you can treat... guess what.   

 

Uk and beyond,  suppression is actually now suppression & regulate.  Regulation of health system demand.  

 

Sage are saying something different, if you believe what they say.

They reckon that the daily death toll won't be anything like that of April/May and be in the high hundreds or a thousand, but will be a constant 500 or so and for a longer period, resulting in a higher death toll.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8887775/SAGE-experts-warn-second-wave-deadlier-first.html

[hmfcbilly]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

France and Germany concerned about the impact on their health systems.  The same concern exists here and that's why we'll probably end up in a more general lockdown or have an extended period in the higher tiers of the tier system.

 

Someone pointed out that this wave probably wont result in quite the same death rate.  Absolutely correct.  People are being successfully treated in hospital and long may it continue.  The key point that keeps being ignored,  willfully imo,  is a matter of scale / volume.  The trajectory of this wave will result in scale of hospitalisation greatly over-topping resources.  By a magnitude.  People will only continue to be successfully treated if the hospitals can manage the volume of patients.  

 

You could apply a notional death rate of 0.00% to covid on the basis of everyone being saved through treatment.  If you have 5 times as many people as you can treat... guess what.   

 

Uk and beyond,  suppression is actually now suppression & regulate.  Regulation of health system demand.  

I presume they've underfunded their health systems for the past 50 years too then? Oh well, at least we will be in good company next Spring when it comes to perfectly good businesses being forced to close for good and millions of folk are out of work. 

[hmfcbilly]

5 minutes ago, steve123 said:

Interesting episode this afternoon , working away and suddenly there is a knocking at my front door as though they are trying to come through it - I thought the wife must have forgotten her key or the young one was playing but no to my surprise it was folk from the cat & dog home wanting me to sign up for some d/d.

 

I was pretty surprised with this, nothing against the cat and dog home but did not think they would be allowed to be going door to door at this time.

Breast cancer charity were at my mothers door yesterday. I had same thought as you when she told me

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sage are saying something different, if you believe what they say.

They reckon that the daily death toll won't be anything like that of April/May and be in the high hundreds or a thousand, but will be a constant 500 or so and for a longer period, resulting in a higher death toll.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8887775/SAGE-experts-warn-second-wave-deadlier-first.html

 

That's a total of deaths,  not a death rate.  The rate will probably be a bit lower.  That sort of plateau of numbers will result from what I suggested.  The rate of healthcare demand being regulated to a manageable level.  I think that's a main element of the strategy.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Victorian

[OBE]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

France and Germany concerned about the impact on their health systems.  The same concern exists here and that's why we'll probably end up in a more general lockdown or have an extended period in the higher tiers of the tier system.

 

Someone pointed out that this wave probably wont result in quite the same death rate.  Absolutely correct.  People are being successfully treated in hospital and long may it continue.  The key point that keeps being ignored,  willfully imo,  is a matter of scale / volume.  The trajectory of this wave will result in scale of hospitalisation greatly over-topping resources.  By a magnitude.  People will only continue to be successfully treated if the hospitals can manage the volume of patients.  

 

You could apply a notional death rate of 0.00% to covid on the basis of everyone being saved through treatment.  If you have 5 times as many people as you can treat... guess what.   

 

Uk and beyond,  suppression is actuallg now suppression & regulate.  Regulation of health system demand.  

 

UK 5 weeks behind Spain, 3 weeks behind France, Belgium asking the Netherlands if they can help them out because their Covid wards are at capacity, Netherlands asking Germany the very same question.

 

Looks like the 1st wave was a piece-o-piss Vic.

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, hmfcbilly said:

I presume they've underfunded their health systems for the past 50 years too then? Oh well, at least we will be in good company next Spring when it comes to perfectly good businesses being forced to close for good and millions of folk are out of work. 

 

No idea about their healthcare funding.  Everyone knows all about the economic consequences.  

[SE16 3LN]

6 minutes ago, hmfcbilly said:

I presume they've underfunded their health systems for the past 50 years too then? Oh well, at least we will be in good company next Spring when it comes to perfectly good businesses being forced to close for good and millions of folk are out of work. 

Germany has a private health care system while France is mixed tenure I believe.

[Don Dan]

 

 

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sage are saying something different, if you believe what they say.

They reckon that the daily death toll won't be anything like that of April/May and be in the high hundreds or a thousand, but will be a constant 500 or so and for a longer period, resulting in a higher death toll.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8887775/SAGE-experts-warn-second-wave-deadlier-first.html

I think what you can take from that is that the model will be wrong. 

It is also completely at odds with previous models which showed a succession of waves with lower but similarly shaped peaks.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Francis Albert

[manaliveits105]

Nanny McFree playing a blinder to get the Indy polls back down and indyref kicked into long grass