Levein’s time is up...

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

 

That doesn't look unreasonable to me. 

 

A lot of young players in there and a lot of decent players in there too.

agree. It’s been a bit of a hit and miss. Less so this season when not so concerned on bringing big numbers of players in. 

[Robert Lazar]

A lot of Hearts Legends on that list for sure. 

 

[martoon]

1 minute ago, Spoleto said:

 

Translation - It wouldn't suit your agenda.

 

Coming from you, that's comical. 

 

My only agenda is to see a competent head coach at Heart of Midlothian. I'd have been happy if that had been Levein, but it isn't and never will be. I strongly suspect that a Levein protégé wouldn't be that coach either. The mere thought of that possibility is horrendous. 

 

It's nothing personal against Craig, no agenda, no petty dislike...he's just not very good. 

[Spoleto]

9 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

you did. So why do we needs lists of rangers and hibs signings? So hibs bought Doidge and we bought Washington but they bought kamberi and we bought vanacek? 

so what ? 

🤣

 

I think because Levein was being attacked for the number and quality of signings during his tenure. 

 

Having seen the list I don't think it's bad at all , and I wouldn't;t expect to be any worse than the likes of Hibs.

 

Thanks to Rudy for taking the time to put it together.

[martoon]

16 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Not at all. 

 

Our numbers mean nothing if not given context. 

 

I think they'll be high but compared to say the other top 5 clubs it would give far more context. 

 

Nothing changes our 6th place finish last season and our poor start this season.

 

You can stand down, soldier. 

 

 

 

[Famous 1874]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

 

Here's the list - Walker on twice as he left and returned. Aside from walker its players who made a league appearance,  and split into the season they joined or made their first appearance.

 

 

14-15	15-16	16-17	17-18	18-19	19-20
Adam Eckersley	Abiola Dauda	Aaron Hughes	Aidan Keena	Aaron Hickey	Craig Halkett
Alim Ozturk	Arnaud Djoum	Alexandros Tziolis	Alex Petkov	Ben Garuccio	Conor Washington
Alistair Roy	Blazej Augustyn	Andraz Struna	Andy Irving	Bobby Burns	Glenn Whelan
Angus Beith	Callumn Morrison	Bjorn Johnsen	Anthony McDonald	Callumn Morrison	Loic Damour
Billy King	Danny Swanson	Choulay	Ashley Smith-Brown	Clevid Dikamona	Joel Pereira
Brad McKay	Dario Zanatta	Conor Sammon	Cammy Logan	Colin Doyle	Jamie Walker
Callum Paterson	Don Cowie	Dario Zanatta	Chris Hamilton	Conor Shaughnessy	Ryotaro Meshino
Dale Carrick	Gavin Reilly	Don Cowie	Christophe Berra	Craig Wighton	Aidy White
Danny Wilson	Igor Rossi	Dylan Bikey	Cole Stockton	David Vanecek
Gary Oliver	John Souttar	Euan Henderson	Connor Randall	Jake Mulraney
Genero Zeefuik	Juanma	Faycal Rherras	Connor Smith	Jimmy Dunne
Jack Hamilton	Juwon Oshaniwa	Isma	Daniel Baur	Oliver Bozanic
James Keatings	Lewis Moore	Jamie Brandon	Danny Amankwaa	Olly Lee
Jamie Walker	Liam Smith	Krystian Nowak	Demetri Mitchell	Peter Haring
Jason Holt	Perry Kitchen	Lennard Sowah	Harry Cochrane	Ryan Edwards
Jordan McGhee		Malaury Martin	Joaquim Adao	Sean Clare
Kenny Anderson		Robbie Muirhead	Jon McLaughlin	Steven MacLean
Kevin McHattie		Rory Currie	Kyle Lafferty	Uche Ikpeazu
Miguel Pallardo		Tasos Avlonitis	Leeroy Makovora	Zdenek Zlamal
Morgaro Gomis		Tony Watt	Manuel Milinkovic
Neil Alexander		Viktor Noring	Marcus Godinho
Osman Sow			Michael Smith
Prince Buaben			Rafal Grzelak
Robbie Buchanan			Ross Callachan
Sam Nicholson			Steven Naismith
Scott Gallacher
Scott Robinson
Sean McKirdy
Soufian El Hassnaoui

Jesus Christ. Some amount of shite in there who have played for this famous football club 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Spoleto said:

 

I think because Levein was being attacked for the number and quality of signings during his tenure. 

 

Having seen the list I don't think it's bad at all , and I wouldn't;t expect to be any worse than the likes of Hibs.

 

Thanks to Rudy for taking the time to put it together.

regardless of who hibs have signed, as hearts fans we are able to judge the list on its own merits.

 

we have been in a position, for whatever reason, where we have needed to sign big numbers of players at once. This is obviously fraught with risk and it shows with some of the sacks of shit we’ve ended up with.

 

i don’t think leveins signings are the problem. I’ve said on numerous occasions a better manager would get more from the players available.

[Johnny Sandiego]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

 

Here's the list - Walker on twice as he left and returned. Aside from walker its players who made a league appearance,  and split into the season they joined or made their first appearance.

 

 

			Ross Callachan
			Steven Naismith

 

What point is the list actually demonstrating though?

 

Is it Levein has signed too many players? If so then you would have to discount around a 3rd of the list as they were either already at the club when he joined or they were youth team graduates.

 

Is it Levein uses too many players? In that case why have you included 3 seasons when he wasn't picking the team?

 

Is it Hearts in general are signing or playing too many players? In that case a comparison to other teams in our league is needed for context.

 

While that list looks big, we have to consider some of those players were needed for a specific reason at a specific time. Some were brought in on a short term basis to plug gaps. Some were actually moved on for money too. 

 

Im firmly in the "Levein's time is up" camp i would add but for me the problem is simply tactics, tinkering and over thinking of the opposition. I dont think our signing policy, particulary this season, is the problem.

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Rudy T said:

 

Here's the list - Walker on twice as he left and returned. Aside from walker its players who made a league appearance,  and split into the season they joined or made their first appearance.

 

 

14-15	15-16	16-17	17-18	18-19	19-20
Adam Eckersley	Abiola Dauda	Aaron Hughes	Aidan Keena	Aaron Hickey	Craig Halkett
Alim Ozturk	Arnaud Djoum	Alexandros Tziolis	Alex Petkov	Ben Garuccio	Conor Washington
Alistair Roy	Blazej Augustyn	Andraz Struna	Andy Irving	Bobby Burns	Glenn Whelan
Angus Beith	Callumn Morrison	Bjorn Johnsen	Anthony McDonald	Callumn Morrison	Loic Damour
Billy King	Danny Swanson	Choulay	Ashley Smith-Brown	Clevid Dikamona	Joel Pereira
Brad McKay	Dario Zanatta	Conor Sammon	Cammy Logan	Colin Doyle	Jamie Walker
Callum Paterson	Don Cowie	Dario Zanatta	Chris Hamilton	Conor Shaughnessy	Ryotaro Meshino
Dale Carrick	Gavin Reilly	Don Cowie	Christophe Berra	Craig Wighton	Aidy White
Danny Wilson	Igor Rossi	Dylan Bikey	Cole Stockton	David Vanecek
Gary Oliver	John Souttar	Euan Henderson	Connor Randall	Jake Mulraney
Genero Zeefuik	Juanma	Faycal Rherras	Connor Smith	Jimmy Dunne
Jack Hamilton	Juwon Oshaniwa	Isma	Daniel Baur	Oliver Bozanic
James Keatings	Lewis Moore	Jamie Brandon	Danny Amankwaa	Olly Lee
Jamie Walker	Liam Smith	Krystian Nowak	Demetri Mitchell	Peter Haring
Jason Holt	Perry Kitchen	Lennard Sowah	Harry Cochrane	Ryan Edwards
Jordan McGhee		Malaury Martin	Joaquim Adao	Sean Clare
Kenny Anderson		Robbie Muirhead	Jon McLaughlin	Steven MacLean
Kevin McHattie		Rory Currie	Kyle Lafferty	Uche Ikpeazu
Miguel Pallardo		Tasos Avlonitis	Leeroy Makovora	Zdenek Zlamal
Morgaro Gomis		Tony Watt	Manuel Milinkovic
Neil Alexander		Viktor Noring	Marcus Godinho
Osman Sow			Michael Smith
Prince Buaben			Rafal Grzelak
Robbie Buchanan			Ross Callachan
Sam Nicholson			Steven Naismith
Scott Gallacher
Scott Robinson
Sean McKirdy
Soufian El Hassnaoui

Thanks for this. A good place keeper for future discussion. One thing that strikes me about the list is just how many players were brought in and did the job required at that time eg Gomis, Sow, Buaben, Zeefuik were excellent in terms of getting us out the championship first go. Not good enough at the next level up so moved out and others brought in, based on budget at that time, who again mostly did the business. 

[Robert Lazar]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

Thanks for this. A good place keeper for future discussion. One thing that strikes me about the list is just how many players were brought in and did the job required at that time eg Gomis, Sow, Buaben, Zeefuik were excellent in terms of getting us out the championship first go. Not good enough at the next level up so moved out and others brought in, based on budget at that time, who again mostly did the business. 

 

Zeefuik was a goal scorer, over weight, yeah, but he knew where the goals were, I'd like to of seen him kept on. Was it not finances that were the excuse at the time? I'd of kept sow as well but apparently we thought a million was enough.  ( I realise that they've both done bugger all since)

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, Robert Lazar said:

 

Zeefuik was a goal scorer, over weight, yeah, but he knew where the goals were, I'd like to of seen him kept on. Was it not finances that were the excuse at the time? I'd of kept sow as well but apparently we thought a million was enough.  ( I realise that they've both done bugger all since)

Agree it would have been good to have seen Zeefuik in top league for one season, after a full pre-season, to see if he could hack it. Think we won the lottery getting £1m for Sow. 

[Robert Lazar]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

Agree it would have been good to have seen Zeefuik in top league for one season, after a full pre-season, to see if he could hack it. Think we won the lottery getting £1m for Sow. 

 

Injuries have done sow in. 

That goal against rangers though.. What a moment. 

[Robert Lazar]

 

[Rudy T]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sandiego said:

 

What point is the list actually demonstrating though?

 

Is it Levein has signed too many players? If so then you would have to discount around a 3rd of the list as they were either already at the club when he joined or they were youth team graduates.

 

Is it Levein uses too many players? In that case why have you included 3 seasons when he wasn't picking the team?

 

Is it Hearts in general are signing or playing too many players? In that case a comparison to other teams in our league is needed for context.

 

While that list looks big, we have to consider some of those players were needed for a specific reason at a specific time. Some were brought in on a short term basis to plug gaps. Some were actually moved on for money too. 

 

Im firmly in the "Levein's time is up" camp i would add but for me the problem is simply tactics, tinkering and over thinking of the opposition. I dont think our signing policy, particulary this season, is the problem.

 

There was an earlier debate about his signings and the volume, failures, successes. So this is the definitive list, posters can take what the wish from it.

[FruitJuice]

31 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

 

That doesn't look unreasonable to me. 

 

A lot of young players in there and a lot of decent players in there too.

From the players only signed in the budge era, who from that list has went onto better things or made the club money? I thought that what our coaching det up was about  Signing players so we can develop them and make a profit.  It looks like it hasn't worked.  What makes you think that the same coaches will suddenly start improving players for the aim of getting the best out of them and selling them on?  Point out why things are going to change with the same inexperienced coaches.  By inexperienced I mean never having coached at a top flight club before.  

[FruitJuice]

16 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Thanks for this. A good place keeper for future discussion. One thing that strikes me about the list is just how many players were brought in and did the job required at that time eg Gomis, Sow, Buaben, Zeefuik were excellent in terms of getting us out the championship first go. Not good enough at the next level up so moved out and others brought in, based on budget at that time, who again mostly did the business. 

We've been out the championship for about four seasons and in three of them we have finished 5th or 6th.  What makes you think they have mostly done the business? 

Edited October 24, 2019 by FruitJuice

[innerjambo]

Levein should be managing in the Scottish 2nd division, although I think he would really struggle there too.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

21 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Thanks for this. A good place keeper for future discussion. One thing that strikes me about the list is just how many players were brought in and did the job required at that time eg Gomis, Sow, Buaben, Zeefuik were excellent in terms of getting us out the championship first go. Not good enough at the next level up so moved out and others brought in, based on budget at that time, who again mostly did the business. 

that depends on your definition of did the business. A massive chunk of those signings were at best mediocre, at worst shite. Levein is hopeless at spotting a player

[pettigrewsstylist]

Can we have the list in order of most yards covered in Hearts career?

An average per appearance would be fine.

Then i can gauge if any are better signings than the workhorse Clare.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Robert Lazar]

The happy clappers always ask, Who else is there? 

Rangers sign Gerrard, 

Derby sign Lampard who then moves to chelsea,

I think respect from the players goes a long way. 

 

The next manager for me?  Someone like Paul Scholes. 

We might need to go down the list from there mind you. 

[innerjambo]

Even when we do sign decent players, Levein seems to knock all the confidence and football out of them.

[Spoleto]

So I think the myth that Levein has signed a)too many players and b) "utter shite" players has been dispelled.

 

Next argument!

 

Or do we just wait until the end of the season and let matters take their own course.

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

So I think the myth that Levein has signed a)too many players and b) "utter shite" players has been dispelled.

 

Next argument!

 

Or do we just wait until the end of the season and let matters take their own course.

🤣

[kingantti1874]

5 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

So I think the myth that Levein has signed a)too many players and b) "utter shite" players has been dispelled.

 

Next argument!

 

Or do we just wait until the end of the season and let matters take their own course.

so if we haven’t signed loads of shite players what’s the reason for massive underachievement?

[Robert Lazar]

3 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

So I think the myth that Levein has signed a)too many players and b) "utter shite" players has been dispelled.

 

Next argument!

 

Or do we just wait until the end of the season and let matters take their own course.

 

I would say that Levein HAS signed FAR too many players, he constantly flings money at his problems.

We will all have to wait until the end of the season unfortunately, there is no other option. 

[Morgan]

11 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

So I think the myth that Levein has signed a)too many players and b) "utter shite" players has been dispelled.

 

Next argument!

 

Or do we just wait until the end of the season and let matters take their own course.

How has the ‘myth’ been dispelled?

 

 

[soonbe110]

49 minutes ago, FruitJuice said:

We've been out the championship for about four seasons and in three of them we have finished 5th or 6th.  What makes you think they have mostly done the business? 

At the time they did. The four I mentioned in the championship. Djoum, Cowie,  Soutar, Rossi helped us consolidate first year back up and so on. 

[soonbe110]

47 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

that depends on your definition of did the business. A massive chunk of those signings were at best mediocre, at worst shite. Levein is hopeless at spotting a player

There were four or five nearly every season that were worth the money. A lot of the names on the list are or were kids when they came in. 

[soonbe110]

29 minutes ago, Robert Lazar said:

The happy clappers always ask, Who else is there? 

Rangers sign Gerrard, 

Derby sign Lampard who then moves to chelsea,

I think respect from the players goes a long way. 

 

The next manager for me?  Someone like Paul Scholes. 

We might need to go down the list from there mind you. 

Did well at Oldham, his only managerial job, right enough. Was it 31 days? 

[Robert Lazar]

4 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Did well at Oldham, his only managerial job, right enough. Was it 31 days? 

 

wit

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sandiego said:

 

What point is the list actually demonstrating though?

 

Is it Levein has signed too many players? If so then you would have to discount around a 3rd of the list as they were either already at the club when he joined or they were youth team graduates.

 

Is it Levein uses too many players? In that case why have you included 3 seasons when he wasn't picking the team?

 

Is it Hearts in general are signing or playing too many players? In that case a comparison to other teams in our league is needed for context.

 

While that list looks big, we have to consider some of those players were needed for a specific reason at a specific time. Some were brought in on a short term basis to plug gaps. Some were actually moved on for money too. 

 

Im firmly in the "Levein's time is up" camp i would add but for me the problem is simply tactics, tinkering and over thinking of the opposition. I dont think our signing policy, particulary this season, is the problem.

 

 

Good summary. 

[Bazzas right boot]

10 minutes ago, Morgan said:

How has the ‘myth’ been dispelled?

 

 

 

He threw a double 6 and dispelled it. 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Robert Lazar said:

 

Zeefuik was a goal scorer, over weight, yeah, but he knew where the goals were, I'd like to of seen him kept on. Was it not finances that were the excuse at the time? I'd of kept sow as well but apparently we thought a million was enough.  ( I realise that they've both done bugger all since)

Zeefoolooook was under contract and would have cost money. 

 

I think £500k was be branded about at the time. 

[Robert Lazar]

Just now, Smith's right boot said:

Zeefoolooook was under contract and would have cost money. 

 

I think £500k was be branded about at the time. 

Well, apparently we spunked half that on wighton. 

Can we no get him on a free now? since he's big and fat. 

[FruitJuice]

8 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

There were four or five nearly every season that were worth the money. A lot of the names on the list are or were kids when they came in. 

Not having a dig for the sake of it but, if how many of those who were kids at the time went on to do well for us and then move onto better things.  If they didn't, you must ask if the coaching has a part to play in this. Especially if the number that done well for us is relatively low.  

I know um repea6myself over this issue but with our set up and facilities you can understand why some fans think we should be more successful with the young players we bring in. 

[1874robbo]

19 minutes ago, Morgan said:

How has the ‘myth’ been dispelled?

 

 

I can’t see how it has either tbh?

there is  a fair pile of shite in amongst those names.

[Gorgie Boys are in town.]

1 hour ago, Spoleto said:

 

That doesn't look unreasonable to me. 

 

A lot of young players in there and a lot of decent players in there 

Jambo kickbacks very own Roland Martin.

[FruitJuice]

27 minutes ago, Robert Lazar said:

 

I would say that Levein HAS signed FAR too many players, he constantly flings money at his problems.

We will all have to wait until the end of the season unfortunately, there is no other option. 

Off course there's an option. Just sack him  

[Gorgie Boys are in town.]

In my opinion, the list of players shows a man out of his depth. The same people will continue to back him regardless of what is said. We are a team that has been on the slide since promotion. 

 

Regardless of a few false dawns here and there and last season cup final. The route to the final being one of the easiest known to man. We have looked like a team heading to where we are. Many have called this for a long time and those who mocked and backed Levein are now showing they are more fans of Levein than Hearts in my opinion. 

[Robert Lazar]

10 minutes ago, FruitJuice said:

Off course there's an option. Just sack him  

 

Aye, but it's not our choice. 

Ann's not going to sack him. 

[Randy Marsh]

The list shows that our recruitment has been absolutely honking since Neilson left.   

[Rudy T]

When I was doing the list what stood out was not so much the quality v shite It was the lack of any discernible strategy. No obvious plan for building something for the future it all seems very stop gap and short term. 

[Randy Marsh]

Just now, Rudy T said:

When I was doing the list what stood out was not so much the quality v shite It was the lack of any discernible strategy. No obvious plan for building something for the future it all seems very stop gap and short term. 

Correct.  Top work by the way.  Won't be enough to appease the Levein fanboys.  They will be frantically coming up with new excuses for the disgraceful player turnover we see each season.

[FruitJuice]

4 minutes ago, Robert Lazar said:

 

Aye, but it's not our choice. 

Ann's not going to sack him. 

Well she can't complain when the crowds get even smaller.  If fans staying away isn't as important as keeping him in a job, then she isn't that bothered about 'the football dept' until they both go. If she had the decency to say that he is going now until the seasons over, I would give up on a us as well.  At least until they are both gone.  It does look like what levein wants to do is what matters to her more.  Levein could actually leave hearts as a hated figure if that is the case.  Though none of that really matters as long as they are happy with the money coming in. 8000 fans pledging money and keeping levein and his backroom staff is more important than them.  No wonder fans dont feel like the club is no longer theirs.  Thanks Craig. 

[FruitJuice]

7 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

When I was doing the list what stood out was not so much the quality v shite It was the lack of any discernible strategy. No obvious plan for building something for the future it all seems very stop gap and short term. 

I suppose that's the haphazard approach Ann was alluding to.  An approach that has cost us a fortune and she laughs it off. 

[Sid]

Here’s a defend Levein comment in this area (with the usual caveat. He has failed tactically And should go)

 

we need to take account of the fact we were skint and club had been dismantled. Over the period, we started with kids. We had low budget to play in first division. We got promoted quicker than we probably thought and had to put a squad together to compete in Premier. We had to take risks on age, injury-prone to get players above our budget. Budget has been dramatically increased meaning we can now sign fewer better players with hopefully reducing injury issues. 
 

Where do people get that our academy should have been producing saleable assets in that  timeframe from a standing start and restricted budget through the Academy? 
 

No other team has had anywhere near that transition so why should we be compared to them. 
 

We now have the foundations in place. Significant turnover, zero capital cost requirements going forward.  Established academy and flow of boys coming through. Building connections with big English clubs and appear to be an attractive place for players to want to play. 
 

Signs are good but we need to turn around current results and I fear Levein cannot use the resources he has to deliver on the pitch. 

[Johnny Sandiego]

1 hour ago, Robert Lazar said:

The happy clappers always ask, Who else is there? 

Rangers sign Gerrard, 

Derby sign Lampard who then moves to chelsea,

I think respect from the players goes a long way. 

 

The next manager for me?  Someone like Paul Scholes. 

We might need to go down the list from there mind you. 

 

Paul scholes managerial record is 7 matches, 1 win, 3 draws and 3 losses. That was at a basket case of a club in Oldham mind but goes to show that good players dont always make good managers.

 

I agree with your thinking though, a recently retired ex-player whos gained knowledge and respect in the game or a younger manager whos had decent success in lower league England would be my pick.

[Spoleto]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

so if we haven’t signed loads of shite players what’s the reason for massive underachievement?

 

A shit load of injuries to key players. 

 

Have you not been paying attention?

[7628mm]

8 minutes ago, Spoleto said:

 

A shit load of injuries to key players. 

 

Have you not been paying attention?

 

Funny I hadn't noticed that would you care to explain in detail?

Edited October 24, 2019 by 7628mm

[Morgan]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

He threw a double 6 and dispelled it. 

 

 

 

A very distinct possibility.  

 

1 hour ago, 1874robbo said:

I can’t see how it has either tbh?

there is  a fair pile of shite in amongst those names.

 

Thete certainly is an amount of shite in amongst those names.  

 

And, it was probably ‘dispelled’ in the eyes of Stiletto, because things weren’t quite ‘panning out’ as he foresaw them to do so.