Levein’s time is up...

[Beast Boy]

33 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Hamilton was not a target man. 

 

JJ did not have a history of employing  target men to my recollection. Not at Hearts anyway. I looked at the poster of the comment and quickly decided he was talking utter gash. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I was trying to have a reasonable debate about it, but I’m struggling to find a way. 

[Beast Boy]

Alex McDonald, now there was a manager who liked a target man.

[siegementality]

58 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

5 years ago we couldn't compete with Celtic, now we can. 

 

The players aren't mediocre. 

 

It's the club's money, they can do what they like with it. 

I’m not convinced that being 22 points behind Celtic is actually competing.

 

Some of the players are very much mediocre. The fact that CL doesn’t play some of them - Edwards, Martin, et al - might tell you that.

 

It’s the clubs money, they can waste it how they like you mean? Poor and lazy argument to be honest. It’s actually the “clubs” job to get the very best value for money, as it is with any business.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

5 years ago we couldn't compete with Celtic, now we can. 

 

The players aren't mediocre. 

 

It's the club's money, they can do what they like with it. 

Your first sentence.

[Bull's-eye]

 

 

12 minutes ago, siegementality said:

I’m not convinced that being 22 points behind Celtic is actually competing.

 

Some of the players are very much mediocre. The fact that CL doesn’t play some of them - Edwards, Martin, et al - might tell you that.

 

It’s the clubs money, they can waste it how they like you mean? Poor and lazy argument to be honest. It’s actually the “clubs” job to get the very best value for money, as it is with any business.

 

I doubt you'd even be convinced if we were top of the league for a good while during the season. 

 

Some supporters will never be happy, you're one of those.

 

[siegementality]

1 minute ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

 

 

I doubt you'd even be convinced if we were top of the league for a good while during the season. 

 

Some supporters will never be happy, you're one of those.

 

Better than being delusional I suppose.

Edited March 2, 2019 by siegementality

[Bull's-eye]

3 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Your first sentence.

 

Good game Wednesday, didn't you enjoy it ?

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

Good game Wednesday, didn't you enjoy it ?

Glorious in defeat.

Do me a favour.

[Boab]

4 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

 

 

I doubt you'd even be convinced if we were top of the league for a good while during the season. 

 

Some supporters will never be happy, you're one of those.

 

 

I’m getting that feeling in this thread.

Any point in continuing ?

That’s debatable....em, which means continue !

As regards your first sentence, bud, impossible to say as there wasn’t a thread like this when we were top.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Boab

[Bull's-eye]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Glorious in defeat.

Do me a favour.

 

Don't recall using the word glory.

 

It was an entertaining game, some even might say value for money.

 

I certainly enjoyed it. 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

Don't recall using the word glory.

 

It was an entertaining game, some even might say value for money.

 

I certainly enjoyed it. 

 

Fair enough but we still got 0 points and that what counts at the end of the day..

Enjoy the rest of your evening,.

[Captain Bubblebeard]

1 hour ago, siegementality said:

Sorry but the CL “plan” looks no closer today than it did five years ago. Meanwhile,  the money that has been wasted - and continues to be wasted - on mediocre players     gives me no confidence that things will magically be better with a bit patience.

I disagree with this.

The second third of the season has been disappointing. Injuries have contributed. But the first third was exceptional. I suspect if you said to someone five years ago that we’d be moaning that the queues to get out of the magnificent new stand were a bit long and that the ten men playing on the state of the art new surface didn’t manage to hold Celtic to a comeback draw, they’d have taken it!

 

Imo we were a decent twist of fate (injury nightmares and appalling run of game-changing reffing decisions) and probably three slightly better signings away from a decent punt at second and a very good shot at third this year. It’s been disappointing and, in particular the recent Dundee, St. Mirren and Livi league results have not been good enough. But to say we’re nowhere nearer today than five years ago to achieving CLs ambitions is, respectfully, utter garbage imo.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

Alex McDonald, now there was a manager who liked a target man.

He also had a lethal penalty box striker, a winger that could cross a ball, a driving midfielder and a squad that could , in the main, survive a few games or training sessions without falling injured. Night and day compared to the present vintage 

[Enzo Chiefo]

34 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Your first sentence.

I was thinking the same. Less than 7 years ago we beat Celtic at Hampden before going on to pump Hibs and lift the Scottish Cup.  Levein has a lot to live up to and I'm not sure he's got what it takes to replicate that.

[siegementality]

10 minutes ago, Captain Bubblebeard said:

I disagree with this.

The second third of the season has been disappointing. Injuries have contributed. But the first third was exceptional. I suspect if you said to someone five years ago that we’d be moaning that the queues to get out of the magnificent new stand were a bit long and that the ten men playing on the state of the art new surface didn’t manage to hold Celtic to a comeback draw, they’d have taken it!

 

Imo we were a decent twist of fate (injury nightmares and appalling run of game-changing reffing decisions) and probably three slightly better signings away from a decent punt at second and a very good shot at third this year. It’s been disappointing and, in particular the recent Dundee, St. Mirren and Livi league results have not been good enough. But to say we’re nowhere nearer today than five years ago to achieving CLs ambitions is, respectfully, utter garbage imo.

I’m not talking about stands and state of the art pitches. I’m not debating that that part of the plan isn’t a success. The footballing side however is no better. We signed mediocre players, our promising youths progress seems to have regressed, and the football we play is eye bleeding. If you think that’s progress on the footballing front then good for you. Personally I don’t.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 minutes ago, siegementality said:

I’m not talking about stands and state of the art pitches. I’m not debating that that part of the plan isn’t a success. The footballing side however is no better. We signed mediocre players, our promising youths progress seems to have regressed, and the football we play is eye bleeding. If you think that’s progress on the footballing front then good for you. Personally I don’t.

Exactly. We won the Championship, finished 3rd in the Premiership then 5th, 6th and now 5th as things stand, as close to Hibs in 6th as Killie in 4th. The football is indeed eye bleeding. I'm not quite sure what progress the happy clappers are seeing, as we enter the last 3 months of the 5 year plan.

[JamboGraham]

Absolutely pivotal point in the season...I said a few matches ago that if someone between us, Dons or Killie puts in a decent 3 game run they will secure 3rd place. None of us have come close to this...yet!!!  No serious damage has been done yet with our form but opportunities have been missed without question.

 

This current squad and manager are 3 wins from becoming legends. This current squad and manager could yet secure 3rd place (and therefore punch above our weight financially)...

 

Nothing is dead yet...not sure why we need a post mortem...we have a whole summer to do that if the remaining 13 matches of the season don’t pan out in the way we might hope...

[Beast Boy]

So is his time not actually up after all, then? 

[Beast Boy]

28 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

He also had a lethal penalty box striker, a winger that could cross a ball, a driving midfielder and a squad that could , in the main, survive a few games or training sessions without falling injured. Night and day compared to the present vintage 

 

That’s quite a telling post. You just miss the old days and the old ways. I doubt you would be happy regardless of who we brought in. It’s a shame, because you should be able to enjoy watching the team you support. It’s something I love, and I would probably stop if it ever became as depressing as it seems to be to you.

[Captain Bubblebeard]

20 minutes ago, siegementality said:

I’m not talking about stands and state of the art pitches. I’m not debating that that part of the plan isn’t a success. The footballing side however is no better. We signed mediocre players, our promising youths progress seems to have regressed, and the football we play is eye bleeding. If you think that’s progress on the footballing front then good for you. Personally I don’t.

You said we were no closer than five years ago to achieving CLs objective. I respectfully disagree.

[It should have been ten]

10 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

So is his time not actually up after all, then? 

 

  Nah bud 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

That’s quite a telling post. You just miss the old days and the old ways. I doubt you would be happy regardless of who we brought in. It’s a shame, because you should be able to enjoy watching the team you support. It’s something I love, and I would probably stop if it ever became as depressing as it seems to be to you.

It's very depressing to me. I certainly haven't missed not having a ST this season. I don"t know if you were around in the 80s but I don't think you'll find many fans that prefer watching the team nowadays.  A new signing that pitches up, plays 2 games before we realise he is unfit. Then takes another 6 weeks to regain the fitness levels he supposedly lost within a few weeks.  Are you surprised we lose faith in those in charge?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

He also had a lethal penalty box striker, a winger that could cross a ball, a driving midfielder and a squad that could , in the main, survive a few games or training sessions without falling injured. Night and day compared to the present vintage 

 

He did indeed. And he took, what 4 years, to put that team together? Levein is expeced to do it in 1 or 2. 

 

Doddie also failed to win the first division in two attempts and had us finishing 5th and 7th. He got time in the job and look what happened next.

[Captain Bubblebeard]

14 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Exactly. We won the Championship, finished 3rd in the Premiership then 5th, 6th and now 5th as things stand, as close to Hibs in 6th as Killie in 4th. The football is indeed eye bleeding. I'm not quite sure what progress the happy clappers are seeing, as we enter the last 3 months of the 5 year plan.

I see us attracting players of the quality of Naismith and Berra. I see us retaining quality prospects like Souttar on extended contracts.

I did not see us doing that five years ago.

I’m no happy clapper. I am, however, able to objectively review our progress over the last five years and not completely lose my shit because we’ve had a few poor performances recently.

I agree that CLs position should be reviewed at the end of the season and that fifth would be an underachievement. I’m intrigued (and I am not being facetious here) as to who the non-happy-clappers foresee us replacing him with. I’m entirely open to a change that would improve us. I don’t see many stand out candidates though. Steve Clarke?

[Enzo Chiefo]

7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

He did indeed. And he took, what 4 years, to put that team together? Levein is expeced to do it in 1 or 2. 

 

Doddie also failed to win the first division in two attempts and had us finishing 5th and 7th. He got time in the job and look what happened next.

Doddie won promotion in his first full season in charge. He qualified for Europe in his first season back in the Premier. He was a winner that was used to lifting trophies as a player, he instilled that in his players and what he achieved domestically and in Europe was excellent.  He, more than anyone, deserved a trophy.  

[Prof]

32 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Exactly. We won the Championship, finished 3rd in the Premiership then 5th, 6th and now 5th as things stand, as close to Hibs in 6th as Killie in 4th. The football is indeed eye bleeding. I'm not quite sure what progress the happy clappers are seeing, as we enter the last 3 months of the 5 year plan.

Couldn't agree more. Lots of guff about progress under CL but where? Mediocre first team, mediocre reserve team and the under 18's are hardly setting a great standard. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Doddie won promotion in his first full season in charge. He qualified for Europe in his first season back in the Premier. He was a winner that was used to lifting trophies as a player, he instilled that in his players and what he achieved domestically and in Europe was excellent.  He, more than anyone, deserved a trophy.  

Remember the 5-2 defeat to Dumbarton at home and the riots when Motherwell pumped us in the final game at home. Thank **** the internet wasn't about then. 

[Beast Boy]

9 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's very depressing to me. I certainly haven't missed not having a ST this season. I don"t know if you were around in the 80s but I don't think you'll find many fans that prefer watching the team nowadays.  A new signing that pitches up, plays 2 games before we realise he is unfit. Then takes another 6 weeks to regain the fitness levels he supposedly lost within a few weeks.  Are you surprised we lose faith in those in charge?

 

 

 

 

 

First season was 1986. Stood at the school end with my Dad until the Roseburn was built. Stood or sat in every area of the ground, since I was seven years old, over the last 33 years of my life. So yes. Yes I was.

 

It was better back then, yes, but we have good and bad eras. I don’t rate this era as a bad one though, Tommy MacLean was a bad era. 

 

Thats my my whole point tbh Enzo, I think it’s more modern football that you don’t like, as opposed to this manager and team imo. I don’t think you’d ever be happy, short of jumping in a time machine.

[Guest]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

Doddie won promotion in his first full season in charge. He qualified for Europe in his first season back in the Premier. He was a winner that was used to lifting trophies as a player, he instilled that in his players and what he achieved domestically and in Europe was excellent.  He, more than anyone, deserved a trophy.  

 

I loved doddie. Doesn’t change the fact that he wouldn’t have lasted one season these days to be able to build that team. 

 

In those days hearts wages were not much less than the OF, which is why we could sign someone like Colquhoun who was a regular with celtic, not to mention other Rangers and Celtic first teamers.

 

And we would currently be in a European spot if the same rules applied then as now.

 

Mind you Neilson won the chhampionship first time of asking and got us Europe after promotion and he was slaughtered by many of the same people slaughtering levein now.

 

Fact is, as we’re comparing eras, fans today have the attention span and patience of a toddler on a sugar high compared to the old days.

[Prof]

3 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

First season was 1986. Stood at the school end with my Dad until the Roseburn was built. Stood or sat in every area of the ground, since I was seven years old, over the last 33 years of my life. So yes. Yes I was.

 

It was better back then, yes, but we have good and bad eras. I don’t rate this era as a bad one though, Tommy MacLean was a bad era. 

 

Thats my my whole point tbh Enzo, I think it’s more modern football that you don’t like, as opposed to this manager and team imo. I don’t think you’d ever be happy, short of jumping in a time machine.

Absolute nonsense. My first season was in 1958 and this current team and style of play under CL is on a par with MacLean's one.

[Gizmo]

4 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

First season was 1986. Stood at the school end with my Dad until the Roseburn was built. Stood or sat in every area of the ground, since I was seven years old, over the last 33 years of my life. So yes. Yes I was.

 

It was better back then, yes, but we have good and bad eras. I don’t rate this era as a bad one though, Tommy MacLean was a bad era. 

 

Thats my my whole point tbh Enzo, I think it’s more modern football that you don’t like, as opposed to this manager and team imo. I don’t think you’d ever be happy, short of jumping in a time machine.

Tommy ****ing MacLean. Still remember turning up at Kilmarnock to hear he had shoved Kidd into the side because "You don;t play kids, its a fear league" or some other shite. He was at it from the off, just hated us and in particular Robinson and did a number on us.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Prof said:

Absolute nonsense. My first season was in 1958 and this current team and style of play under CL is on a par with MacLean's one.

 

Yeah. Cool. 

 

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

Tommy ****ing MacLean. Still remember turning up at Kilmarnock to hear he had shoved Kidd into the side because "You don;t play kids, its a fear league" or some other shite. He was at it from the off, just hated us and in particular Robinson and did a number on us.

 

Grim grim times. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

First season was 1986. Stood at the school end with my Dad until the Roseburn was built. Stood or sat in every area of the ground, since I was seven years old, over the last 33 years of my life. So yes. Yes I was.

 

It was better back then, yes, but we have good and bad eras. I don’t rate this era as a bad one though, Tommy MacLean was a bad era. 

 

Thats my my whole point tbh Enzo, I think it’s more modern football that you don’t like, as opposed to this manager and team imo. I don’t think you’d ever be happy, short of jumping in a time machine.

 

Theres also a very bug difference betqeen watching football as a kid and as an adult. Would adult Enzo have enjoyed the frustrations of the 80s so much, including Doddie’s early years, the age he is now? It was comparatively a much worse time. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Prof said:

Absolute nonsense. My first season was in 1958 and this current team and style of play under CL is on a par with MacLean's one.

 

That’s a cracker. 

[Beast Boy]

Just now, ToqueJambo said:

 

Theres also a very bug difference betqeen watching football as a kid and as an adult. Would adult Enzo have enjoyed the frustrations of the 80s so much, including Doddie’s early years? It was comparatively a much worse time. 

 

That first season for seven year old me, was magical. You kind of think that the way your team performs in your debut season, is the way your team has always played and always will.

 

Despite the way the season ended, the majority of that season was an amazing experience for me.

 

I now accept that that was the exception, rather than the rule. 

[Class of 75]

3 hours ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

5 years ago we couldn't compete with Celtic, now we can. 

 

The players aren't mediocre. 

 

It's the club's money, they can do what they like with it. 

Competing with Celtic? We have been beaten by St Mirren, failed to defeat Livingston including a 5-0 drubbing and beaten by Dundee. We have  a plus 1 goal difference only 1 more than Livingston. I don't think we are any where near challenging Celtic. 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

That first season for seven year old me, was magical. You kind of think that the way your team performs in your debut season, is the way your team has always played and always will.

 

Despite the way the season ended, the majority of that season was an amazing experience for me.

 

I now accept that that was the exception, rather than the rule. 

 

I don’t remember caring much about results or performances until I was older. Those first few seasons were all about your heroes on the pitch and just the experience of being in the ground surrounded by a bunch of sweary old men, including your dad.

 

Worth remembering when adults talk about changing manager every season that that usually means a constant turnover in players, including the heroes of kids at games.

 

What levein is doing is allowing heroes to emerge by signing up the likes of berra, souttar, haring, clare and uche longterm as well as giving lots of opportunities to young players ie future robbos.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Competing with Celtic? We have been beaten by St Mirren, failed to defeat Livingston including a 5-0 drubbing and beaten by Dundee. We have  a plus 1 goal difference only 1 more than Livingston. I don't think we are any where near challenging Celtic. 

 

I assumed he meant in head to heads, at Tynie at least.

 

No one is challenging celtic, and possibly never will again, aside from brief periods of seasons, like us earlier this season.

[pointon]

9 hours ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

JJ took one look at Sutton in training and thought WTF? Sutton was immobile and totally powder puff.

 

Kyle aside, I cant think of any other JJ big targetmen... Hamilton? At a stretch I suppose, but he was more of a poacher I thought.

 

Honestly not sure where you are getting this from. We’re you around for most of JJ’s time at Hearts?

 

 

Jim Hamilton was a very underated player for us

[Enzo Chiefo]

59 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I loved doddie. Doesn’t change the fact that he wouldn’t have lasted one season these days to be able to build that team. 

 

In those days hearts wages were not much less than the OF, which is why we could sign someone like Colquhoun who was a regular with celtic, not to mention other Rangers and Celtic first teamers.

 

And we would currently be in a European spot if the same rules applied then as now.

 

Mind you Neilson won the chhampionship first time of asking and got us Europe after promotion and he was slaughtered by many of the same people slaughtering levein now.

 

Fact is, as we’re comparing eras, fans today have the attention span and patience of a toddler on a sugar high compared to the old days.

I agree with some of what you say Toque. It wasn't "rules" though that allowed us to qualify for Europe from 5th place, back in 84. The success of Dundee Utd and Aberdeen - officially the best team in Europe back then- helped us along the way. The standard of the game and players was far higher back then. The difference with CL though, is that he has been DOF for 5 years, overseeing the entire footballing dept which has seen nearly 100 players come and go. Arguably he has had more than enough time.

[Debut 4]

51 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Theres also a very bug difference betqeen watching football as a kid and as an adult. Would adult Enzo have enjoyed the frustrations of the 80s so much, including Doddie’s early years, the age he is now? It was comparatively a much worse time. 

Well, I have two older Brothers and other older relatives who were adults at that time. (I was 12 in 86).  They have nothing but fond memories of those times despite the heartache. The team from then is still a benchmark and will always be held in high regard. 

 

Even though Doddies era was trophyless it hugely influenced subsequent teams , managers and Hearts in general to strive for success.

 

There was the inevitable dip (McLean period) that often comes after a relatively good period but JJ was like a reincarnation of Doddie when he took over. 

 

Good attacking , fearless football which brought success. 

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I agree with some of what you say Toque. It wasn't "rules" though that allowed us to qualify for Europe from 5th place, back in 84. The success of Dundee Utd and Aberdeen - officially the best team in Europe back then- helped us along the way. The standard of the game and players was far higher back then. The difference with CL though, is that he has been DOF for 5 years, overseeing the entire footballing dept which has seen nearly 100 players come and go. Arguably he has had more than enough time.

 

Thought we were judging him as manager not DoF. Thats a whole other discussion.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Well, I have two older Brothers and other older relatives who were adults at that time. (I was 12 in 86).  They have nothing but fond memories of those times despite the heartache. The team from then is still a benchmark and will always be held in high regard. 

 

Even though Doddies era was trophyless it hugely influenced subsequent teams , managers and Hearts in general to strive for success.

 

There was the inevitable dip (McLean period) that often comes after a relatively good period but JJ was like a reincarnation of Doddie when he took over. 

 

Good attacking , fearless football which brought success. 

 

 

 

Obvously agree about 86. But it took a few years to get there. Would you agree fans these days wouldn’t stand for one 3rd and one second in the old first division followed by a 5th and 7th?

Edited March 2, 2019 by Guest

[Debut 4]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Would you agree fans these days wouldn’t stand for one 3rd and one second in the old first division followed by a 5th and 7th?

Probably but I suppose it may depend on the generation. Other factors come into it too though like standard of play, recent success that can placate the support through a dip..etc...

 

As an example, from 86 until 92 we finished:-  2, 5, 2, 6, 3, 5 , 2

 

Its interesting that in the dip seasons we played in Europe. I remember it being a point of debate back then.

 

But all was forgiven. It was still a good team to watch, we were getting in Europe regularly and pretty much always getting to semi finals in the domestic cups, more so the Big Cup.

[Enzo Chiefo]

12 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Thought we were judging him as manager not DoF. Thats a whole other discussion.

I don't think you can separate the 2 roles though. I agree he has steadied the ship but to progress to the next level needs new ideas and a change in manager imo.

[Enzo Chiefo]

Just now, Debut 4 said:

Probably but I suppose it may depend on the generation. Other factors come into it too though like standard of play, recent success that can placate the support through a dip..etc...

 

As an example, from 86 until 92 we finished:-  2, 5, 2, 6, 3, 5 , 2

 

Its interesting that in the dip seasons we played in Europe. I remember it being a point of debate back then.

 

But all was forgiven. It was still a good team to watch, we were getting in Europe regularly and pretty much always getting to semi finals in the domestic cups, more so the Big Cup.

I remember that too Debut. Every season in Europe coincided with poor domestic form.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I don't think you can separate the 2 roles though. I agree he has steadied the ship but to progress to the next level needs new ideas and a change in manager imo.

 

Interested to hear what the next level is considering we have a very good chance of 4th plus 2 semis this season. That’s exactly where we stand budget wise.

 

Also who is the manager available who we can afford to take us there?

 

Levein did enough this season to deserve to see out his contract IMO and we can plan for a successor next season instead of yet another manager change and the instability and player turnover that results in.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Guest

[Debut 4]

3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I remember that too Debut. Every season in Europe coincided with poor domestic form.

Aye. We all remember the European run in 88-89.

 

Its incredible to think that team finished 6th in the league but the joy the European run gave us seem to take priority.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I remember that too Debut. Every season in Europe coincided with poor domestic form.

 

That was partly because the team that did so well the previous season often got broken up.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Remember the 5-2 defeat to Dumbarton at home and the riots when Motherwell pumped us in the final game at home. Thank **** the internet wasn't about then. 

Very much so. Don't know about the internet but most of the fans I bump into in the street/ pubs etc , guys that i  have known through following us for 40 years, they all say the same. They are disillusioned with Levein but are still going out of habit. It's genuinely only on here that I encounter his supporters