'Hearts are in a relegation battle'

[Escobar PHM]

8 hours ago, graygo said:

 

An average of a point a game usually sees a team safe.

Arithmetically you are correct. Although if you dip a point or 2 below that average you are in the play off.

 

A glance at the table this morning shows everyone from 6th to 11th currently averaging around a point per game, so a point per game would be on the brink but yes, probably enough

 

Pretty fecking sad that we're taking about avoiding a relegation battle now rather than pushing for a European slot but I think reality is starting to hit with the majority now.

 

I don't think we'll go down. I think we are still capable of producing a desperate wee run of 2 or 3 wins if the possibility started to look real.

[Thomaso]

16 hours ago, Smithee said:

Ad hominem is aimed at a specific person/persons instead of the opinion they've put forward in a debate - it's like listening to Prince Charles' opinions on architecture then replying with "well you're a jug eared toff"

 

What he did wasn't part of a debate, it was the equivalent of shouting "wankers!" into a crowded room then running away. Also unpleasant, but not ad hominem. 

 

 

I would have thought calling a person/persons "Foamers" who like touching each other, was aimed at specific person/persons on JKB instead of the opinion they have put forward in the debate.

 

His comment was posted on this thread therefore it became part of the debate surely.

 

Anyway happy to concede that it was not ad hominem in the strictest sense, and agree with you that his post was unpleasant.  Cheers.

[Thomaso]

59 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Arithmetically you are correct. Although if you dip a point or 2 below that average you are in the play off.

 

A glance at the table this morning shows everyone from 6th to 11th currently averaging around a point per game, so a point per game would be on the brink but yes, probably enough

 

Pretty fecking sad that we're taking about avoiding a relegation battle now rather than pushing for a European slot but I think reality is starting to hit with the majority now.

 

I don't think we'll go down. I think we are still capable of producing a desperate wee run of 2 or 3 wins if the possibility started to look real.

 

 

At this stage of our revival after administration to be even discussing the possibility of relegation is a disgrace.  Almost 4 years into the 5 year Grand Plan and we have hit a brick wall.

[Mollo]

I take no satisfaction whatsoever from a situation where 'not being in a relegation battle' is the greatest thing we can celebrate right now - and that's not even a dead cert!

 

Form is more important IMO and all clubs bigger AND smaller - can have purple patches or a dip in form (I think some parties have an impression that the clubs below us cannot get better and that we cannot get worse - but that's a crazy assumption!) - if we aren't careful things could get a lot worse.

[FTH]

2 hours ago, Escobar PHM said:

I think we are still capable of producing a desperate wee run of 2 or 3 wins if the possibility started to look real.

 

What from our 4 wins in 16 matches suggests we can easily roll of 2 or 3 in a row when the pressure starts to mount?

 

Having watched every game this season I'd be more inclined to think the teams around us are more likely to scrape out results against us come high pressure "6 pointer" type games. Especially considering any time we've gone 1 up recently Levein has reverted to defending the lead, taking off attacking players and time wasting to run down the clock...which has clearly work out well for us.

[David McCaig]

The big problem for me, is that we can't even claim our players are off form or not trying... pretty much without exception they are all giving 100% and performing to exactly the level you would expect.  In a bizarre way I would be much more hopeful if we had a team of stars swinging the lead... at least then you'd take solace from the fact they were capable of much better.

 

But sadly the likes of Michael Smith, Prince Buaben, Don Cowie and Cole Stockton are not going to improve, they are lower league standard players struggling to compete on a week to week basis in the Scottish top flight.  If we were to be relegated none of these players would stand out in the Championship either.

 

Its even more worrying that even our best player has been on top of his game, Christophe Berra has been outstanding, indeed we would be bottom of the League without him.

[Escobar PHM]

20 minutes ago, FTH said:

 

What from our 4 wins in 16 matches suggests we can easily roll of 2 or 3 in a row when the pressure starts to mount?

 

Having watched every game this season I'd be more inclined to think the teams around us are more likely to scrape out results against us come high pressure "6 pointer" type games. Especially considering any time we've gone 1 up recently Levein has reverted to defending the lead, taking off attacking players and time wasting to run down the clock...which has clearly work out well for us.

I certainly wouldn't like to get to the business end of the season, say 6 games left, and in trouble. I think we'd shite ourselves. I think we've got 2 or 3 players who'd be able to drag us through and grind out enough to keep us out of it before it got really bad. Maybe that's wishful thinking or simple denial. Bad as we are I cant see us letting it get that bad that we'd have a 6 game scrap to save ourselves. We wouldn't win a scrap like that IMO. Yes its a bit contradictory of me but surely to feck having an underperforming team is a big part of this and they can raise it for a few weeks before we get in real bother.

[bobskeldon]

10 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

I certainly wouldn't like to get to the business end of the season, say 6 games left, and in trouble. I think we'd shite ourselves. I think we've got 2 or 3 players who'd be able to drag us through and grind out enough to keep us out of it before it got really bad. Maybe that's wishful thinking or simple denial. Bad as we are I cant see us letting it get that bad that we'd have a 6 game scrap to save ourselves. We wouldn't win a scrap like that IMO. Yes its a bit contradictory of me but surely to feck having an underperforming team is a big part of this and they can raise it for a few weeks before we get in real bother.

I don't think they are underperforming! I think what you see from this team is what you get.

[frankblack]

Just now, bobskeldon said:

I don't think they are underperforming! I think what you see from this team is what you get.

 

Agreed.  I think the lack of quality is the problem.  Midfield should be driving the play and chipping in a few goals.  Sadly they are barely capable of stringing two passes together.

 

You can't coach around that when the players are crap.

[Boab]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Agreed.  I think the lack of quality is the problem.  Midfield should be driving the play and chipping in a few goals.  Sadly they are barely capable of stringing two passes together.

 

You can't coach around that when the players are crap.

 

Which, if taken on board, should mean something in January.

I feel there needs to be something, anything, to fire up the midfield area. Nothing, with present results continuing and it's not looking good.

[maroonedinoz]

All it takes is two wins and things will look completely different.

[Bowmans_Boot]

1 minute ago, maroonedinoz said:

All it takes is two wins and things will look completely different.

Indeed. Just wait until we get back to Tynecastle and our injured players are back fit. There is no need for concern at all. 

[Escobar PHM]

33 minutes ago, bobskeldon said:

I don't think they are underperforming! I think what you see from this team is what you get.

 

29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Agreed.  I think the lack of quality is the problem.  Midfield should be driving the play and chipping in a few goals.  Sadly they are barely capable of stringing two passes together.

 

You can't coach around that when the players are crap.

Yes there is a lack of quality more so than underperformance.

 

However I think the likes of Lafferty, Goncalves, Walker, Souttar to name but 4 who could be giving us more than they are giving us.

 

 

[frankblack]

56 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

 

Yes there is a lack of quality more so than underperformance.

 

However I think the likes of Lafferty, Goncalves, Walker, Souttar to name but 4 who could be giving us more than they are giving us.

 

 

 

Souttar has been injured a bit but I agree with the others.

[Jammy T]

Sorry but it is not deflection to say we are not in a relegation battle when we are at the start of December and not adrift at the bottom of the league by more than 8 or 9 points.

 

It’s nuts to suggest we are.

[BRAVEHEART1874]

All these draws are not what any fan wants but I do not think we will be celebrating another easy championship title any time soon  

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, Bowmans_Boot said:

Indeed. Just wait until we get back to Tynecastle and our injured players are back fit. There is no need for concern at all. 

 

Nah...get with the program BB......we need 2 transfer windows to sort this out! 

 

Now where we are going to be before we reach two transfer windows is another matter!   

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Jammy T said:

Sorry but it is not deflection to say we are not in a relegation battle when we are at the start of December and not adrift at the bottom of the league by more than 8 or 9 points.

 

It’s nuts to suggest we are.

 

If results do not improve we could easily be in 11th place by the turn of the year....would we then be in a relegation battle JT?

[Hendricks]

3 hours ago, David McCaig said:

The big problem for me, is that we can't even claim our players are off form or not trying... pretty much without exception they are all giving 100% and performing to exactly the level you would expect.  In a bizarre way I would be much more hopeful if we had a team of stars swinging the lead... at least then you'd take solace from the fact they were capable of much better.

 

But sadly the likes of Michael Smith, Prince Buaben, Don Cowie and Cole Stockton are not going to improve, they are lower league standard players struggling to compete on a week to week basis in the Scottish top flight.  If we were to be relegated none of these players would stand out in the Championship either.

 

Its even more worrying that even our best player has been on top of his game, Christophe Berra has been outstanding, indeed we would be bottom of the League without him.

 

 

Good post. This is exactly the reality. As I said in an earlier post on this thread the performances for an hour against Aberdeen and more recently the Ross County game, both of which STILL ended in draws were anomalies rather than what should be expected from this atrocious squad and uninspiring head coach. The ‘performances’ surrounding those are the norm and show this lot for what they are rather than those being what should be expected. The run up to the new year sees a significantly more difficult fixture list and I see no way this group are turning results around. 

[Bristol jamboree 10]

Look at January last year to now league form.Still think we will stay up

[Escobar PHM]

1 hour ago, Jammy T said:

Sorry but it is not deflection to say we are not in a relegation battle when we are at the start of December and not adrift at the bottom of the league by more than 8 or 9 points.

 

It’s nuts to suggest we are.

This squad falling 8 or 9 points adrift wouldn't be a 'relegation battle' It'd be a 'relegation certainty'

 

Relegation battles start when your running out of games ( down to single figures I'd say) and your bottom 3 or 4 with 3 or 4 teams about you. We're not there yet, clearly, but I think that its very important that this particular group of players gets some points on the board soon and takes us out of the equation because I'd be very concerned about their stomach for a 'battle'

[wavydavy]

4 hours ago, FTH said:

 

What from our 4 wins in 16 matches suggests we can easily roll of 2 or 3 in a row when the pressure starts to mount?

 

Having watched every game this season I'd be more inclined to think the teams around us are more likely to scrape out results against us come high pressure "6 pointer" type games. Especially considering any time we've gone 1 up recently Levein has reverted to defending the lead, taking off attacking players and time wasting to run down the clock...which has clearly work out well for us.

 

Bang on the money. Our team are struggling and we lack in several areas of the squad. We dug in for a draw at home to Hamilton with 10 men but what were the excuses for the other two games against Partick and Ross Co.

 

To not be able to beat teams below us in the league at home is a massive sign of how poor we are. We have virtually our full squad of players available except Martin and Smith Brown and those two can hardly be described as being missed as they rarely ever feature in the team.

 

We are back at Tynecastle so Levein is running out of excuses.  We have a tough run of games coming up and based on what I have seen of late I just can't see how we are going to win any of those games.

 

The January transfer window is always a difficult one to try and bring in decent players but CL has to try and bring in some players that will have an immediate impact otherwise I fear we will continue to struggle.

[Bristol jamboree 10]

Still time to change things.Form is bad and if it continues come May we will be in trouble.We have to wait till after sheep game to look at things again.Warning signs are out

[August Landmesser]

A lot of 'if things don't improve then terrible things will happen' type posts on this thread

 

If my aunty had baws etc...

 

FWIW, I think we're on course to win a few more, draw a few more and lose a few more, finishing on around 50-odd points, which is not relegation material, and is a pretty standard HMFC league season.

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

A lot of 'if things don't improve then terrible things will happen' type posts on this thread

 

If my aunty had baws etc...

 

FWIW, I think we're on course to win a few more, draw a few more and lose a few more, finishing on around 50-odd points, which is not relegation material, and is a pretty standard HMFC league season.

The fears are based on real life recent and mid term form over the last few weeks, few months, and indeed the last year.

If nothing changes to improve results, we are displaying relegation type form. The only 'if' here is 'if nothing changes' ' if things stay as they are' We're not on course to do anything else other than continue recent poor form.

[August Landmesser]

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

The fears are based on real life recent and mid term form over the last few weeks, few months, and indeed the last year.

If nothing changes to improve results, we are displaying relegation type form. The only 'if' here is 'if nothing changes' ' if things stay as they are' We're not on course to do anything else other than continue recent poor form.

If there is no change in recent results then we'll finish the season on 40 points, having drawn all 22 of our remaining games. Based on last year's league tables, 40 from 38 games would see us finish 9th.

 

If we continue gathering points at the rate we currently are (18 from 16 games is 1.125 points per game) then we'd finish the season on 43 points (38 x 1.125 = 42.75), based on last year that would be eighth (although Thistle were 6th with 42 but that's because the split is daft).

 

Neither position is ideal, but neither would see us relegated. 

[Escobar PHM]

24 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

If there is no change in recent results then we'll finish the season on 40 points, having drawn all 22 of our remaining games. Based on last year's league tables, 40 from 38 games would see us finish 9th.

 

 

Our recent results include 3 defeats to hibs rangers and Kilmarnock. Rework your sums and see where a continuing pattern of 3 points every 6 games leaves us

[Bowmans_Boot]

53 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

A lot of 'if things don't improve then terrible things will happen' type posts on this thread

 

If my aunty had baws etc...

 

FWIW, I think we're on course to win a few more, draw a few more and lose a few more, finishing on around 50-odd points, which is not relegation material, and is a pretty standard HMFC league season.

We have little creativity, no width, no left sided players and have failed to win any of our matches at Tynecastle. This is what people are basing theirs concern upon, rather than simply stating that the wins will come: where exactly will these wins magically appear from? After a fantastic January window? The previous hope given to us was being back at Tynecastle and our injured players returning. 

[August Landmesser]

16 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Our recent results include 3 defeats to hibs rangers and Kilmarnock. Rework your sums and see where a continuing pattern of 3 points every 6 games leaves us

How far back are we taking 'recent results'? If we go back to the beginning of this season, then (as I explained) we'll finish on 43 points.

 

If we carefully select games that we've lost however, in order to whip up a froth of pearl-clutching and panic, then 3 points every six games would get see us finish on 29 points.

 

Since we're playing this game, I'll imagine that we win our next three, giving us 12 points from every six games, which is 44 for the rest of the season, finishing on a total of 62.

 

We will not finish on 29 points. We will also not finish on 62 points. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

1 minute ago, August Landmesser said:

How far back are we taking 'recent results'? If we go back to the beginning of this season, then (as I explained) we'll finish on 43 points.

 

If we carefully select games that we've lost however, in order to whip up a froth of pearl-clutching and panic, then 3 points every six games would get see us finish on 29 points.

 

Since we're playing this game, I'll imagine that we win our next three, giving us 12 points from every six games, which is 44 for the rest of the season, finishing on a total of 62.

 

We will not finish on 29 points. We will also not finish on 62 points. 

We are also, totally 100% guaranteed not winning our next three matches. 

[Beast Boy]

12 minutes ago, Bowmans_Boot said:

We have little creativity, no width, no left sided players and have failed to win any of our matches at Tynecastle. This is what people are basing theirs concern upon, rather than simply stating that the wins will come: where exactly will these wins magically appear from? After a fantastic January window? The previous hope given to us was being back at Tynecastle and our injured players returning. 

 

The boy in your avatar has been providing creativity recently. So does Goncalves and Martin does too. To some extent Lafferty does and it looks like Cochrane has that in his locker. Djoum and Cowie to a lesser extent as well. Milinkovic is another.

 

Width I agree with, we need more than just Skinny (I’m going to use that nickname because it’s no worse than [Disa]Pointon for example, and I think we need to stop being so against light-hearted stuff like that), and I hope we get McGinn to supplement that. I think Smith would really benefit from having a good winger in front of him on his natural side to get the best out of him too. Something which will also simultaneously improve our defence.

 

January is our most important window since our Championship season.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

4 hours ago, maroonedinoz said:

All it takes is two wins and things will look completely different.

It's looking like we will struggle to get two wins between now and May unless we act decisively when the window opens. I am still on the optimistic side that we will do OK but our record in finding the correct players will have to improve no end.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, August Landmesser said:

A lot of 'if things don't improve then terrible things will happen' type posts on this thread

 

If my aunty had baws etc...

 

FWIW, I think we're on course to win a few more, draw a few more and lose a few more, finishing on around 50-odd points, which is not relegation material, and is a pretty standard HMFC league season.

There's nothing "standard" about this season.  Averaging slightly better than a point per game almost mid way through the league season  - sure, would've been acceptable on out first season back in the top division. But now ?  Genuinely wish I had the faith you do in the current  set up.  Sometimes this place reminds me of the Spitting Image sketch where John Major  tells his cabinet that things aren't as bad as they seem (he's the only one wearing the VR headset). 

[Bowmans_Boot]

5 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

The boy in your avatar has been providing creativity recently. So does Goncalves and Martin does too. To some extent Lafferty does and it looks like Cochrane has that in his locker. Djoum and Cowie to a lesser extent as well. Milinkovic is another.

 

Width I agree with, we need more than just Skinny (I’m going to use that nickname because it’s no worse than [Disa]Pointon for example, and I think we need to stop being so against light-hearted stuff like that), and I hope we get McGinn to supplement that. I think Smith would really benefit from having a good winger in front of him on his natural side to get the best out of him too. Something which will also simultaneously improve our defence.

 

January is our most important window since our Championship season.

Jamie looks to be getting back on to his game and hopefully this continues. However, we continue to create not that much throughout matches, hence the worry/negativity.

 

I agree about McGinn and I most certainly agree about this transfer window. Getting it wrong isnt worth thinking about. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

There's nothing "standard" about this season.  Averaging slightly better than a point per game almost mid way through the league season  - sure, would've been acceptable on out first season back in the top division. But now ?  Genuinely wish I had the faith you do in the current  set up.  Sometimes this place reminds me of the Spitting Image sketch where John Major  tells his cabinet that things aren't as bad as they seem (he's the only one wearing the VR headset). 

I am unsure if he is showing faith in the current set up or simply accepts mediocrity. Perhaps this is where the board are, too: "ach, historically we never achieve much so its all cool". 

 

I expect a little more than that. 

[David McCaig]

1 hour ago, August Landmesser said:

If there is no change in recent results then we'll finish the season on 40 points, having drawn all 22 of our remaining games. Based on last year's league tables, 40 from 38 games would see us finish 9th.

 

If we continue gathering points at the rate we currently are (18 from 16 games is 1.125 points per game) then we'd finish the season on 43 points (38 x 1.125 = 42.75), based on last year that would be eighth (although Thistle were 6th with 42 but that's because the split is daft).

 

Neither position is ideal, but neither would see us relegated. 

Not ideal!!!

 

Such a scenario not only costs us top 6 prize money it also means we miss out on our 3 most lucrative Category A fixtures... Hibs, Celtic, Rangers!!!

 

If this comes to pass, we will not shift 10k STS next season!!

 

The time for action is January, we simply can't afford to let this 12 month long slump continue. 

 

The likes of Grzelak, Nowak, Randall, Stockton, Martin, Smith-Brown and M.Smith have to be written off and better players brought in.  The financial element of doing this has to be met by Ann Budge as club owner.  Ultimately she is responsible for the annual horribilus that is 2017.

[Beast Boy]

8 minutes ago, Bowmans_Boot said:

Jamie looks to be getting back on to his game and hopefully this continues. However, we continue to create not that much throughout matches, hence the worry/negativity.

 

I agree about McGinn and I most certainly agree about this transfer window. Getting it wrong isnt worth thinking about. 

 

I’ve been very impressed with Walker in the last two games. Annoyed that it’s taken this long for it to happen, but I’m easy as long as it continues.

 

Dont think we disagree on very much else that we have discussed tbh.

[Hendricks]

1 hour ago, August Landmesser said:

A lot of 'if things don't improve then terrible things will happen' type posts on this thread

 

If my aunty had baws etc...

 

FWIW, I think we're on course to win a few more, draw a few more and lose a few more, finishing on around 50-odd points, which is not relegation material, and is a pretty standard HMFC league season.

 

Aye. 33pts from our last 33 league games, 14 league goals in 16 matches this season and punted out the league cup by some part timers and lower league clubs certainly backs up your thoughts! 

[Bowmans_Boot]

3 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

Move been very impressed with Walker in the last two games. Annoyed that it’s taken this long for it to happen, but I’m easy as long as it continues.

 

Dont think we disagree on very much else that we have discussed tbh.

Agree again!! I share your frustration regarding Jamie, albeit I felt he was much better than many gave him credit for. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

3 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

 

Aye. 33pts from our last 33 league games, 14 league goals in 16 matches this season and punted out the league cup by some part timers and lower league clubs certainly backs up your thoughts! 

The club budgets to go out of every cup at the earliest stage. The fans appear to accept this happening now, too, as our ridiculously poor cup record is rarely mentioned. 

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Bowmans_Boot said:

Agree again!! I share your frustration regarding Jamie, albeit I felt he was much better than many gave him credit for. 

 

 

If a player puts in that amount of effort and level of performance in a game, I ain’t gonna look for reasons to criticise.

[davemclaren]

20 minutes ago, Bowmans_Boot said:

The club budgets to go out of every cup at the earliest stage. The fans appear to accept this happening now, too, as our ridiculously poor cup record is rarely mentioned. 

I think our poor cup record gets mentioned quite a lot. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think our poor cup record gets mentioned quite a lot. 

The super positive brigade only ever talk about romping the championship, finishing 3rd, being "2nd" when Robbie left and refer to our historical league placings. Cups are rarely mentioned by them. 

[davemclaren]

Just now, Bowmans_Boot said:

The super positive brigade only ever talk about romping the championship, finishing 3rd, being "2nd" when Robbie left and refer to our historical league placings. Cups are rarely mentioned by them. 

Ah, I thought you meant generally  

[Bristol jamboree 10]

Ann has to pay for stand.She does not have to put hand in pocket for playing side.If Gates go down and budget is a mess she can walk.Why did no one else put hand in pocket.Football is about results better the team more money comes in.I think we have messed up.Hibs 2-2 in cup changed things.That is how tight it is between success and failure 

[Bristol jamboree 10]

Defeat from Well and Dundee Lets see what happens.

[Bristol jamboree 10]

A dog fight is good.Remember league cup pars and Peterhead and we finish third.Changes must be made now.

[DG_HMFC]

Our form is dreadful and I really don't know where our next win will come from any time soon. 

 

Motherwell are in decent form and will come to Tynecastle on Saturday looking to take 3 points. Then you have Dundee, who have just beaten Rangers and Ross County (I think) back-to-back, so if we want to take anything from the next two games we are going to have to find something that has been missing for what feels like months.

 

No doubt about it, if we don't win in our next 2 matches we are definitely in a relegation battle.

[Bazzas right boot]

Doesn't feel like a relegation battle, the fact it's a discussion means we're not.

 

If we're in a relegation battle , it will be obvious and no one will disagree.

 

As someone else said, we are in danger if being drawn into a relegation battle if results don't improve and we don't win game's ( as is any team) but not in one yet.

 

If we get in one, we'll all know it.

 

 

[eyesandears]

17 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

Doesn't feel like a relegation battle, the fact it's a discussion means we're not.

 

If we're in a relegation battle , it will be obvious and no one will disagree.

 

As someone else said, we are in danger if being drawn into a relegation battle if results don't improve and we don't win game's ( as is any team) but not in one yet.

 

If we get in one, we'll all know it.

 

 

Three points off the relegation play off place but we're not in a relegation battle?!?

Of course we are. It just happens to be a battle with 7 teams in it and we are top of that pile of teams at the moment.

We are definitely in a relegation battle whether it "feels" like it or not.