Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

Was it not a British referendum? 

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

To the result of the vote it will matter not a jot. To the message that it sends out, to both those Scottish voters for whom a no deal is anathema (the vast majority of us) and to the EU, that the SNP were willing to actually effectively vote for a no-deal situation which would impoverish our nation even further than the current deal will, purely for reasons of politics, it means a great deal. It is not a vote winner by any stretch of the imagination, and the SNP needs to get as many folk on board as it can in the months and years ahead, not alienate them.

It wouldn't matter if this was the greatest deal in history, which it isn't, to SNP. They want No Deal and if thousands of Scots lost their jobs because of economic fallout, then that is price they are willing to pay. 

Stuff your future, your kids futures, all that matters to the zealots is independence, no matter the cost. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

It wouldn't matter if this was the greatest deal in history, which it isn't, to SNP. They want No Deal and if thousands of Scots lost their jobs because of economic fallout, then that is price they are willing to pay. 

Stuff your future, your kids futures, all that matters to the zealots is independence, no matter the cost. 

Correct, hence why their general governance is so shite. They really don’t care if drugs deaths go through the roof so long as people vote for Indy.

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

To the result of the vote it will matter not a jot. To the message that it sends out, to both those Scottish voters for whom a no deal is anathema (the vast majority of us) and to the EU, that the SNP were willing to actually effectively vote for a no-deal situation which would impoverish our nation even further than the current deal will, purely for reasons of politics, it means a great deal. It is not a vote winner by any stretch of the imagination, and the SNP needs to get as many folk on board as it can in the months and years ahead, not alienate them.

 

What I am saying is that I think the bit in bold is a massive reach.

 

Edit: And...

 

  

4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

It wouldn't matter if this was the greatest deal in history, which it isn't, to SNP. They want No Deal and if thousands of Scots lost their jobs because of economic fallout, then that is price they are willing to pay. 

Stuff your future, your kids futures, all that matters to the zealots is independence, no matter the cost. 

The only people who will be pushing that line are unionist fantasists.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Justin Z

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

What I am saying is that I think the bit in bold is a massive reach.

It’s not though is it. The SNP want Brexit to do maximum damage so that it strengthens their position. Telling them to take a deal is like telling Porky Pig Blackford to stop eating mince pies.

[Justin Z]

7 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It was a UK vote. Hopefully this information is useful.

 

5 minutes ago, Ma Roon said:

Was it not a British referendum? 

 

Again, thanks for reminding us why the union is not fit for purpose.

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

What I am saying is that I think the bit in bold is a massive reach.

 

Edit: And...

 

  

The only people who will be pushing that line are unionist fantasists.

Or people born and brought up in Scotland who can spot a bunch of chances a mile away. 

Wouldn't expect you to understand. 

[Justin Z]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It’s not though is it. The SNP want Brexit to do maximum damage so that it strengthens their position. Telling them to take a deal is like telling Porky Pig Blackford to stop eating mince pies.

 

If the SNP wanted Brexit to do maximum damage, they would not have been proposing amendments to the deal to try to protect Scotland throughout (and had them summarily ignored by Westminster). They would not have objected to the Internal Market Bill, they would have sat idly by while Westminster legislated on devolved matters without consent. They'd have simply allowed this silly house of cards to collapse while they watched, then jumped on the opportunity.

 

To push this fiction that this was the SNP's master plan all along is ludicrous.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Or people born and brought up in Scotland who can spot a bunch of chances a mile away. 

Wouldn't expect you to understand. 

 

Imagine telling someone born outside Scotland he wouldn't understand "chancer spotting" while unironically supporting the Tories and Brexit.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If the SNP wanted Brexit to do maximum damage, they would not have been proposing amendments to the deal to try to protect Scotland throughout (and had them summarily ignored by Westminster). They would not have objected to the Internal Market Bill, they would have sat idly by while Westminster legislated on devolved matters without consent. They'd have simply allowed this silly house of cards to collapse while they watched, then jumped on the opportunity.

 

To push this fiction that this was the SNP's master plan all along is ludicrous.

The amendments they were asking for were purely means of blocking it.

 

PS - when you say protecting Scotland, what you mean is protecting the SNP’s interests. The rise in drugs deaths shows you how bothered the SNP is about “protecting Scotland”.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Dusk_Till_Dawn

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The amendments they were asking for were purely means of blocking it.

 

Ah yes, such as all the requests for extensions, the literal opposite of blocking something with a deadline.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Ah yes, such as all the requests for extensions, the literal opposite of blocking something with a deadline.

Extensions with no suggestions of anything at the end of them. Basically an attempt to draw it out for as long as Brexit took to collapse. It’s not exactly subtle.

[Mikey1874]

19 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

It wouldn't matter if this was the greatest deal in history, which it isn't, to SNP. They want No Deal and if thousands of Scots lost their jobs because of economic fallout, then that is price they are willing to pay. 

Stuff your future, your kids futures, all that matters to the zealots is independence, no matter the cost. 

 

I do think the SNP are entitled to campaign for Independence (and certainly after leaving EU, 2014 cannot be said to be final) and that is what they are doing, despite Nicola Sturgeon bizarrely saying she won't campaign because of Covid. 

 

But the Deal gives the SNP a problem. The Deal might actually end up being alright. It is more inconvenience for businesses but overall it could be okay.

 

How long is reasonable to assess the results of Brexit? I would say it's at least 2 or 3 years. What if we end up better off? Will the SNP continue to campaign for lower living standards? 

 

SNP should vote for No Deal because once leaving was confirmed, it's what they wanted. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Mikey1874

[Justin Z]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Extensions with no suggestions of anything at the end of them. Basically an attempt to draw it out for as long as Brexit took to collapse. It’s not exactly subtle.

 

You mean Brexit was not going to result in the Leavers' line of “a better deal than we had while in the EU”, and might've collapsed if left to be negotiated for too long? Well, I never!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

You mean Brexit was not going to result in the Leavers' line of “a better deal than we had while in the EU”, and might've collapsed if left to be negotiated for too long? Well, I never!

Of course it wasn’t but that’s a diversion from the conversation we’re having - which is that the SNP are doing what’s in their own interests (and when I say theirs, I mean the party’s)

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Of course it wasn’t but that’s a diversion from the conversation we’re having - which is that the SNP are doing what’s in their own interests (and when I say theirs, I mean the party’s)

 

It's very much not a diversion when it started with bollocks like “it wouldn't matter a jot if this was the greatest deal in history.”

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Justin Z

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

It's very much not a diversion when it started with bollocks like “it wouldn't matter a jot if this was the greatest deal in history.”

 

I still think that’s open to debate, given the character of Sturgeon and fat boy

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

Scotland also holds a devolved government with certain powers of which constitution isn't one. Scotland also voted heavily to remain as part of the UK and we had equal voting rights along with every other UK citizen. 

 

Scotland isn't an independent country so stop pretending it is.

[pablo]

15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Imagine telling someone born outside Scotland he wouldn't understand "chancer spotting" while unironically supporting the Tories and Brexit.

 

 

How would things play out in your country if half of Louisiana fancied seceding from the US and returning to French rule? 

 

Disclaimer- not entirely serious 

[Justin Z]

Just now, pablo said:

How would things play out in your country if half of Louisiana fancied seceding from the US and returning to French rule? 

 

Disclaimer- not entirely serious 

 

Actually, you should ask @Ulysses what he thinks of this not entirely serious scenario.

 

Also for what it's worth, there's constantly talk of secessions all over the US. Texas has been famous for it basically ever since it joined (it was formerly a Republic).

[Enzo Chiefo]

33 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Correct, hence why their general governance is so shite. They really don’t care if drugs deaths go through the roof so long as people vote for Indy.

They really would be happy to live in caves as long as they had their precious "freedumb",....until they surrendered it to Brussels of course.  Scotland will never prosper until we rid ourselves of the scourge of the SNP.

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Actually, you should ask @Ulysses what he thinks of this not entirely serious scenario.

 

Also for what it's worth, there's constantly talk of secessions all over the US. Texas has been famous for it basically ever since it joined (it was formerly a Republic).

 

Ha ha good point

[Cade]

EU heads of state all give the nod, not that this means anything legally.

 

Until the EU Parliament re-convenes in Feb/March and formally ratifies the deal, it's not done.

 

All eyes on Westminster now and if Boris can ram it through in a single day.

[Des Lynam]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Not just health insurance required

 

 

They barely help you anyway so not much of a loss. 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

It is indeed but why should Scotland continually get a government it doesn’t vote for? 
Also EVEL means MPs from Scotland can’t vote on matters that will impact on us, such as HS2, infrastructure in England or cuts to the NHS that cost us money. 
The EU for instance has a much fairer voting system where states are more equal no matter the size of the country. 

I think in the past England has got a government it didn't vote for thanks to Scottish and Welsh Labour votes. Scotland has quite often got a government it voted for. But that is what being in the Union means. England is not independent any more than Scotland is. It's just bigger and as with most things size matters and certainly in a democracy it must.

 

"Union of equals" is a phrase I have only begun to hear quite recently. Back in 1707 it might have made some sense and not just as a slogan in support of the Union.  The size difference wasn't quite as great and in any event the country was governed by aristocrats. land owners, and the rich of both countries (who had common interests) with no concept of real democracy. Once democracy happened 200 years later the concept of a Union of Equals made no sense.

[manaliveits105]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

They really would be happy to live in caves as long as they had their precious "freedumb",....until they surrendered it to Brussels of course.  Scotland will never prosper until we rid ourselves of the scourge of the SNP.

without doubt 

[dicksojo]

26 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I think in the past England has got a government it didn't vote for thanks to Scottish and Welsh Labour votes. Scotland has quite often got a government it voted for. But that is what being in the Union means. England is not independent any more than Scotland is. It's just bigger and as with most things size matters and certainly in a democracy it must.

 

"Union of equals" is a phrase I have only begun to hear quite recently. Back in 1707 it might have made some sense and not just as a slogan in support of the Union.  The size difference wasn't quite as great and in any event the country was governed by aristocrats. land owners, and the rich of both countries (who had common interests) with no concept of real democracy. Once democracy happened 200 years later the concept of a Union of Equals made no sense.

Well put. I tried to form a response but couldn’t quite find the words but this hits the nail on the head.

 

I guess in all honesty there’s zero point in trying to discuss this topic on an open and anonymous forum as people aren’t going to change their pre-determined positions. A very interesting piece below which ties in rather well with this “debate”.

 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, Boof said:

 

You really are a tiresome troll.

 

How many of the UK's previous prime ministers have you habitually referred to by their first name?

 

Theresa?

David?

Gordon?

Tony?

John?

Margaret?
James?

Harold?
Edward?

 

I'd take a stab at not a single one.

 

The use of 'Boris' by the right-wing media and similarly-minded (or empty-minded) morons to convey some sort of cute and cuddly pesona is particularly nauseating. The guy is indisputably unfit for the office he currently holds.

I agree. It makes the fat, oafish, racist more appealing to the home county voters.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It was a UK vote. Hopefully this information is useful.

Not difficult to understand, is it. 

[Francis Albert]

38 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

They barely help you anyway so not much of a loss. 

Is it affected by Brexit?

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I agree. It makes the fat, oafish, racist more appealing to the home county voters.

It's amazing the posters on here who have fell for it.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

It's amazing the posters on here who have fell for it.

I'm not particularly surprised.

[John Findlay]

The French will vote against it in the EU. It's the French thing to do.

[Ainsley Harriott]

The free trade element will mean its unlikely there will any increase in food prices or disruption, you can still visit the EU for up to 90 days without the need of a Visa, we still have access to free healthcare while in the EU and importantly the pound has just gone up since the news of the deal. I'm really struggling to find the disastrous part of this deal?

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

How do you vote heavily or lightly?

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The French will vote against it in the EU. It's the French thing to do.

Nonsense, they're not going to veto the whole thing.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Boof said:

 

You really are a tiresome troll.

 

How many of the UK's previous prime ministers have you habitually referred to by their first name?

 

Theresa?

David?

Gordon?

Tony?

John?

Margaret?
James?

Harold?
Edward?

 

I'd take a stab at not a single one.

 

The use of 'Boris' by the right-wing media and similarly-minded (or empty-minded) morons to convey some sort of cute and cuddly pesona is particularly nauseating. The guy is indisputably unfit for the office he currently holds.

A nice diversion. I call Boris Boris. A good name for a buffoon... think Boris Yeltsin. It is also rather silly name  wheras  Johnson confers a bit of undeserved dignity.

Of PMs my lifetime Winston was Winston or maybe Winnie to most but I was too young to give him a name. Eden I would guess would have been Eden. But Macmillan maybe Harold if not exactly Supermac. Douglas-Home was Sir Alec for brevity. Wilson ... certainly Harold at times in his cheeky chappy mode. Heath often Ted. Callaghan was Sunny Jim. Thatcher Maggie but not in an admiring way.  Blair Tony because it suited him somehow. Brown was Gordon.  Major Major because John even more boring. Cameron Cameron for the same reason. May Theresa. 

The idea that calling Johnson Boris  is some sort of unique right wing term of affection for him or even a sort of conspiracy  is a bit bizarre. It is just the buffoon's buffoonish name.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Cade]

France won huge fishing concessions ya bam.

 

They'll be quite happy to rubber stamp it.

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A nice diversion. I call Boris Boris. A good name for a buffoon... think Boris Yeltsin. It is also rather silly name  wheras  Johnson confers a bit of undeserved dignity.

Of PMs my lifetime Winston was Winston or maybe Winnie to most but I was too young to give him a name. Eden I would guess would have been Eden. But Macmillan maybe Harold if not exactly Supermac. Douglas-Home was Sir Alec for brevity. Wilson ... certainly Harold at times in his cheeky chappy mode. Heath often Ted. Callaghan was Sunny Jim. Thatcher Maggie but not in an admiring way.  Blair Tony because it suited him somehow. Brown was Gordon.  Major Major because John even more boring. Cameron Cameron for the same reason. May Theresa. 

The idea that calling Johnson Boris  is some sort of unique right wing term of affection for him or even a sort of conspiracy  is a bit bizarre. It is just the buffoon's buffoonish name.

It's unwittingly a term of endearment. 

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It's unwittingly a term of endearment. 

It is wittingly defined as or seen as a term of endearment by those looking for it as such.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It is wittingly defined as or seen as a term of endearment by those looking for it as such.

It maybe gives people a warm fuzzy feeling calling him by his first name.

[Des Lynam]

22 hours ago, Cade said:

Scotland would be welcomed with open arms.

Anyone arguing that point is either mentally deficient or trolling.

Not without an independent monetary policy. 

[Boof]

2 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Scotland also holds a devolved government with certain powers of which constitution isn't one. Scotland also voted heavily to remain as part of the UK and we had equal voting rights along with every other UK citizen. 

 

Scotland isn't an independent country so stop pretending it is.

 

50 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

How do you vote heavily or lightly?

 

You tell us?

[Norm]

I can safely say the only PM who I've referred to by first name is Boris. 

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It maybe gives people a warm fuzzy feeling calling him by his first name.

Not me. As I said calling him Johnson would for me dignify him.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Boof said:

You tell us?

 

[Norm]

1 minute ago, Boof said:

 

 

You tell us?

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

The French will vote against it in the EU. It's the French thing to do.

 

Doubt it

 

They got what they wanted on fish

[JyTees]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

 

The overwhelming majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote to remain in the EU.

 

The SNP now vote for no deal Brexit against the will of the Scottish people.

 

Shambles of a party.

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

 

That would be the SNP and the DUP voting against, so.  Who else?