Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[manaliveits105]

Fat Hibby Blackford - Scottish Government analysis shows Scotland will be £1600 worse off per person with the deal 

 

eh I will put it out there now I smell shite with your non independent analysis there fatty boy 

So much lies and deceit recently no one trusts the SG anymore 

[Seymour M Hersh]

36 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Doubt it

 

They got what they wanted on fish

 

Not really they wanted 14 years of transition not 5.5 years. 

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

I think it's a bit of an own goal by the SNP, obviously completely political. The SNP stated that they would have the right to re-address the question of independence if anything material changed and now they want to emphatically make the case that Brexit has been such a material change (which is correct, imo). Voting against the deal is their way of starting the ball rolling. However, given the terrible repercussions of a no-deal Brexit, they are going to be cast in a bad light with a lot of voters as a result of this stance. They should have decided to abstain as this would have still allowed them to forcibly make their point (and in an even better way too - "We can't be involved in voting at all for such a terrible decision which will lead to the impoverishing of Scotland").

 

And, if this is what you are alluding to, I don't think the EU will look on the SNP's decision favourably either.

 

 

I'm referring to both the Scottish electorate and the European audience.  It's an immature stance by the SNP.  It doesn't matter if an amendment has no hope of succeeding, the SNP should table it so that it forces its policy position on to the floor of Parliament. 

[Cade]

40 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

The overwhelming majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote to remain in the EU.

 

The SNP now vote for no deal Brexit against the will of the Scottish people.

 

Shambles of a party.

 

[JyTees]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

 

Join the letters to form words, then the words to form sentences. You'll get there in the end 👍🏻

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

31 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Fat Hibby Blackford - Scottish Government analysis shows Scotland will be £1600 worse off per person with the deal 

 

eh I will put it out there now I smell shite with your non independent analysis there fatty boy 

So much lies and deceit recently no one trusts the SG anymore 

He’ll be on a sugar rush from the buckets of celebrations he’a eaten. How many seats does he need in the House of Commons these days? 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

31 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Fat Hibby Blackford - Scottish Government analysis shows Scotland will be £1600 worse off per person with the deal 

 

eh I will put it out there now I smell shite with your non independent analysis there fatty boy 

So much lies and deceit recently no one trusts the SG anymore 

He’ll be on a sugar rush from the buckets of celebrations he’a eaten. How many seats does he need in the House of Commons these days? 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

That would be the SNP and the DUP voting against, so.  Who else?

 

A handful of Labour MPs may abstain 

[husref musemic]

1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:

Not without an independent monetary policy. 

Your not supposed to mention that.

[Mikey1874]

54 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Not really they wanted 14 years of transition not 5.5 years. 

 

You state the initial negotiating position. France will vote for the deal. France have already agreed it. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Imagine telling someone born outside Scotland he wouldn't understand "chancer spotting" while unironically supporting the Tories and Brexit.

 

For the record, and to prove you can't spot a chance, I voted Remain and certainly didn't vote Tory in the General election. 

Unfortunately, the country voted to leave and as such, government left and despite all those who thought No Deal was the aim, and I was one of them, actually secured a Deal to leave. 

You on the other hand, think you know more about UK and Scotland than those who were born here. You don't. 

SNP should have abstained if they can't vote for deal, but they won't, all they will do is vote negatively which is what they do. 

They don't care for Scottish workers and their jobs, they care for independence at any cost. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

Your not supposed to mention that.

Don't worry about future economic policy, Peter &  Nicola will have something jotted down on notepad somewhere. Its just not for us to know about or be informed about. 

After all, it's only our and our childrens futures they are pissing about with. Perhaps if they had children, they might act differently, we will never know. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

13 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You state the initial negotiating position. France will vote for the deal. France have already agreed it. 

 

I know but they didn't initially want 5.5 years they wanted 14 years I was merely pointing out that they didn't get what they wanted. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Seymour M Hersh

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I know but they didn't initially want 5.5 years they wanted 14 years I was merely pointing out that they didn't get what they wanted. 

 

14 years was the initial negotiating position.

 

Maybe aiming for 8 years or something. Its good enough.

 

There's enough flexibility for the current arrangements to continue for 20 years. 

[Boof]

1 hour ago, JyTees said:

 

The overwhelming majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote to remain in the EU.

 

Are you counting that the same way as the overwhelming majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote to remain tethered to Westminster?

[Francis Albert]

30 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

14 years was the initial negotiating position.

 

Maybe aiming for 8 years or something. Its good enough.

 

There's enough flexibility for the current arrangements to continue for 20 years. 

I understood that after 5.5 years there will be an annual negotiation on quotas with independent arbitration. Much like Norway has had since it chose not to join the EU. A decision few Norwegians have regretted.

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I know but they didn't initially want 5.5 years they wanted 14 years I was merely pointing out that they didn't get what they wanted. 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

I find John Swinney intellectually dishonest, and you too now.

 

Aren't you the guy who started the rise and fall of the SNP thread and was adamant support for them was falling as their numbers soared?

 

I don't think you're in a great position to be throwing that accusation about.

 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Wait....

Wait my arse, you were adamant they were falling back then when every single metric said otherwise.

Should I start quoting?

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

14 hours ago, Boof said:

 

 

You tell us?

[Justin Z]

14 hours ago, JyTees said:

 

The overwhelming majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote to remain in the EU.

 

Thank you for reiterating the position that “abstention” and “no” are exactly the same thing.

[Justin Z]

9 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

It was never a promise that by voting No, the UK would remain in the EU until the end of the Universe.

 

In much the same way it was never a promise that by voting No, the question wouldn't come back up again.

 

So by these standards, seeing as the UK voted to leave the EU less than two years after the Scottish indy referendum, over six years is an overwhelmingly long wait. Thanks for confirming.

[Cade]

So any election or referendum in which the combination of turnout and winning margin combine to produce a winning result with less than 50% of the eligible voting population is invalid?

 

Because that would be pretty much every election, ever.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Cade

[SwindonJambo]

16 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

 

 

🎼.but if you try some time, you just might get what you need👍

[Seymour M Hersh]

I see the ERG have even BJ the thumbs up on the deal. 

[Ulysses]

Saw someone moaning on Twitter because there's a new limit on the amount of wine you can bring back from the Continent without paying duty.

 

Apparently the limit is something like 56 bottles of wine.  I appreciate a drink and all, but I can't really see the cause for complaint there. 

[Justin Z]

22 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

For the record, and to prove you can't spot a chance, I voted Remain and certainly didn't vote Tory in the General election. 

Unfortunately, the country voted to leave and as such, government left and despite all those who thought No Deal was the aim, and I was one of them, actually secured a Deal to leave. 

You on the other hand, think you know more about UK and Scotland than those who were born here. You don't. 

SNP should have abstained if they can't vote for deal, but they won't, all they will do is vote negatively which is what they do. 

They don't care for Scottish workers and their jobs, they care for independence at any cost. 

 

Scottish Labour to vote against the deal in Holyrood tomorrow

 

'Fraid you're clean out of “chancers” to pick with your laser vision for that sort of thing

[pablo]

Why are Holyrood having a vote on a UK foreign policy matter? Utterly deluded 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

Why are Holyrood having a vote on a UK foreign policy matter? Utterly deluded 

 

A number of elements of the agreement touch devolved matters, as I'm sure you're well aware.

 

Westminster will once again act without consent of the Scottish Parliament, further shredding the Sewel Convention and the Scotland Acts, and again demonstrating the futility of this constitutional order.

[pablo]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

A number of elements of the agreement touch devolved matters, as I'm sure you're well aware.

 

Westminster will once again act without consent of the Scottish Parliament, further shredding the Sewel Convention and the Scotland Acts, and again demonstrating the futility of this constitutional order.

 

Good. Devolution doesn't diminish the power of the UK government, and the UK withdrawal from the EU is not a typical situation. Suck it up.

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

Good. Devolution doesn't diminish the power of the UK government, and the UK withdrawal from the EU is not a typical situation. Suck it up.

 

Ah okay, so the Tories and UK government can just ignore the law and constitution when they feel like it. Sounds about right.

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Good. Devolution doesn't diminish the power of the UK government, and the UK withdrawal from the EU is not a typical situation. Suck it up.

"STFU Scotland, you'll get what you're given"

 

You make the case for independence like a pro 👍

[pablo]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

Ah okay, so the Tories and UK government can just ignore the law and constitution when they feel like it. Sounds about right.

 

It's not about right, it's exactly right. Westminster can pass legislation for all parts of the UK, without their consent and including areas of usually devolved policy matters. 

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

It's not about right, it's exactly right. Westminster can pass legislation for all parts of the UK, without their consent and including areas of usually devolved policy matters. 

 

That they “can”, having explicitly written an amendment into the Scotland Act that they would not, is as @Smithee says, exactly why independence will happen—and needs to. It's an entirely broken constitutional order.

 

What did Cameron say in the Vow? “Devo Max”, was it? Laughable.

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Justin Z

[NANOJAMBO]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's not about right, it's exactly right. Westminster can pass legislation for all parts of the UK, .......without their consent ........and including areas of usually devolved policy matters. 

And you're OK with that obviously.  So much for democracy & the rule of law. 

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

That they “can”, having explicitly written an amendment into the Scotland Act that they would not, is as @Smithee says, exactly why independence will happen—and needs to. It's an entirely broken constitutional order.

 

What did Cameron say in the Vow? “Devo Max”, was it? Laughable.

 

 

Well, that's a different argument altogether. Maybe you're right but you'll need Westminster to grant a section 30 again sometime to find out.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

And you're OK with that obviously.  So much for democracy & the rule of law. 

 

[pablo]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

And you're OK with that obviously.  So much for democracy & the rule of law. 

 

The role of Holyrood is to manage the policy areas that Westminster has devolved to it. Westminster is the sovereign power. So yes I'm okay with it. It's just a shame we don't have a SG who understands this and wants devolution to work for us all.

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, pablo said:

 

The role of Holyrood is to manage the policy areas that Westminster has devolved to it. Westminster is the sovereign power. So yes I'm okay with it. It's just a shame we don't have a SG who understands this and wants devolution to work for us all.

It's just a shame there's a govt in London that doesn't care about the rule of law and enacted a power grab to take back devolved powers from Edinburgh under the guise of brexit while a supine population stands idly by , some applauding. 

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

The role of Holyrood is to manage the policy areas that Westminster has devolved to it. Westminster is the sovereign power. So yes I'm okay with it. It's just a shame we don't have a SG who understands this and wants devolution to work for us all.

 

As already stated in this thread, several elements of the withdrawal bill touch on policy areas devolved to Holyrood (and the other assemblies). The Scottish Government understand that all too well, have tried to serve their governmental function on these areas, and have been shut out, completely, since day one.

 

Side note, there's a pretty compelling legal argument that the idea of parliamentary sovereignty is purely English, that there's no similar concept in Scots Law at all, and that this purely English concept was in no way assented to in the Acts of Union. Either way, @NANOJAMBO spot on again.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

As already stated in this thread, several elements of the withdrawal bill touch on policy areas devolved to Holyrood (and the other assemblies). The Scottish Government understand that all too well, have tried to serve their governmental function on these areas, and have been shut out, completely, since day one.

 

Side note, there's a pretty compelling legal argument that the idea of parliamentary sovereignty is purely English, that there's no similar concept in Scots Law at all, and that this purely English concept was in no way assented to in the Acts of Union. Either way, @NANOJAMBO spot on again.

Looking forward to this being put to bed by Pablo. 

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

As already stated in this thread, several elements of the withdrawal bill touch on policy areas devolved to Holyrood (and the other assemblies). The Scottish Government understand that all too well, have tried to serve their governmental function on these areas, and have been shut out, completely, since day one.

 

Side note, there's a pretty compelling legal argument that the idea of parliamentary sovereignty is purely English, that there's no similar concept in Scots Law at all, and that this purely English concept was in no way assented to in the Acts of Union. Either way, @NANOJAMBO spot on again.

 

Again, good. If the SG believes Westminster has acted outside of the Scotland Act, then I'm sure they'll seek a legal course of action. As far not getting a seat at the table on the UK Brexit team, what do they expect? Once more, suck it up. 

[Sooperstar]

 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-backing-fruit-farmer-shares-fears-after-voting-leave-despite-relying-on-eastern-european-labour-a4111936.html
 

 

[manaliveits105]

Woke to Blackford voice on radio banging on about this isn’t a good deal for Scotland - should we go for no deal then - no we should just stay in the single market - that’s not an option so should we not back the deal - No - 

snp are like toddlers stamping their feet and putting their fingers in their ears and screaming 

What an absolute embarrassment to Scotland that coco is  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Woke to Blackford voice on radio banging on about this isn’t a good deal for Scotland - should we go for no deal then - no we should just stay in the single market - that’s not an option so should we not back the deal - No - 

snp are like toddlers stamping their feet and putting their fingers in their ears and screaming 

What an absolute embarrassment to Scotland that coco is  

They have the luxury of protest without the burden of responsibility for their actions.

 

They're normally quite good at being "political", I can't for the life of me understand why they just don't abstain.  Its utterly ridiculous that a politician - any politician - can stand up and vote for something [no deal] that only weeks ago they said would be a disaster. 

 

Regardless of the spin there are only two options - deal or no deal.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Candy

[A Boy Named Crow]

Deary me,  we've reached the "why don't you go back to your own country?" level of debate.

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Deary me,  we've reached the "why don't you go back to your own country?" level of debate.

It's never far from the surface

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It's never far from the surface

 

No, unfortunately it's becoming more and more common. Only last month SNP Ian Blackford had to apologise for demanding if an English photographer had a valid reason to be in Scotland. The photographer lives here.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

No, unfortunately it's becoming more and more common. Only last month SNP Ian Blackford had to apologise for demanding if an English photographer had a valid reason to be in Scotland. The photographer lives here.

He apologised did he? I expect we'll see the same any minute now from Seymour.