Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The irony being that the choice being put in front of us by the SNP in 2014, was a hard no deal exit from the EU. 

 

Absolute bollocks

[AlimOzturk]

4 minutes ago, dicksojo said:

The Tory party didn’t drag us out of Europe the uk electorate did. The Tory party’s internal schism led to it. Just remember, people in Scotland voted to leave the eu too. 
 

For what it’s worth I voted to remain in the EU but compounding one mistake with another isn’t the solution.

I personally believe leaving the poison of the of the Tory led UK to be essential for Scotland to recover and prosper. However I am lying if I said independence is worth it if it means the SNP being in charge for any amount of time. They are only meant to be a vehicle to a Scottish independence vote never to govern for any amount of time. It should have been the case that after Indy ref they should have became an irrelevance but because of the sheer incompetence of the the UK government they are even stronger now. 

 

The only way rid of them now is another Indy ref what ever the result. This cloud of remain/leave still lingers and it is a poisonous one right or wrong. There should be a condition to the referendum that the SNP disband what ever the result. 
 

 

[pablo]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Absolute bollocks

 

No, it's not.

[Unknown user]

Just now, pablo said:

 

No, it's not.

Back it up then

[dicksojo]

4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

I personally believe leaving the poison of the of the Tory led UK to be essential for Scotland to recover and prosper. However I am lying if I said independence is worth it if it means the SNP being in charge for any amount of time. They are only meant to be a vehicle to a Scottish independence vote never to govern for any amount of time. It should have been the case that after Indy ref they should have became an irrelevance but because of the sheer incompetence of the the UK government they are even stronger now. 

 

The only way rid of them now is another Indy ref what ever the result. This cloud of remain/leave still lingers and it is a poisonous one right or wrong. There should be a condition to the referendum that the SNP disband what ever the result. 
 

 

I get that. Unfortunately the economic well being of Scotland remains being a part of the uk. For me that is all that really matters.

[pablo]

Just now, Smithee said:

Back it up then

 

If Yes had won in 2014. Scotland would only have been able to approach the EU about membership, once it had achieved sovereign status. Before that, Scotland would first have to negotiate a divorce settlement with the UK.

 

There would have been a period of time when Scotland would have been out of the UK and the EU.

[dicksojo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Back it up then

You back up that it’s rubbish

[Dirty Deeds]

Post brexit I expect the unionist argument to focus on a external border between Scotland and England.  I think the Independence campaign will have to address this head on and state that any border arrangements will have to be agreed  between the two sovereign states and an external border is a possible outcome. 

 

An external border would make joining the EU easier.  Wikipedia tells me that 44 such borders already exist in Europe,  the Independence campaign need to have a grown up discussion about how they operate and what it would mean for cross border jobs particularly. 

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

If Yes had won in 2014. Scotland would only have been able to approach the EU about membership, once it had achieved sovereign status. Before that, Scotland would first have to negotiate a divorce settlement with the UK.

 

There would have been a period of time when Scotland would have been out of the UK and the EU.

Now back up that the SNP were putting forward a hard no deal exit from the EU

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Now back up that the SNP were putting forward a hard no deal exit from the EU

 

It was a consequence of Yes winning.

[Mikey1874]

[Mikey1874]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

You're not wrong, but at this stage it's all about the politics.  Does the SNP want to be the party who voted for this deal, or the party who voted for no deal?

 

 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It was a consequence of Yes winning.

Well yeah, if you apply a bunch of poor faith assumptions, but at no point did the SNP put forward a hard no deal exit from the EU and it's a blatant misrepresentation to claim they did.

[Justin Z]

9 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

I don't have any friends. I am #ActuallyAutistic. Again you, @Cairneyhill Jambo with your utterly meaningless shtick.

 

You don't have any friends because you're actually a fantasist. It has nothing to do with your autism, as we've all known plenty of autistic people who don't behave like you, then when called on it, hide behind a pathetic woe is me shield. Give it a rest.

[pablo]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Well yeah, if you apply a bunch of poor faith assumptions, but at no point did the SNP put forward a hard no deal exit from the EU and it's a blatant misrepresentation to claim they did.

 

 What were they proposing then?

[Norm]

5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

You don't have any friends because you're actually a fantasist. It has nothing to do with your autism, as we've all known plenty of autistic people who don't behave like you, then when called on it, hide behind a pathetic woe is me shield. Give it a rest.

Saved me the trouble of typing. Being on the spectrum doesn't mean you have no friends. In fact, I'd say he must be the first person I know of on the spectrum, who doesn't have any friends. 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 What were they proposing then?

Putting Scotland on an equal footing with the other independent nations of the world instead of waiting to see what Westminster will let us do.

[pablo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Putting Scotland on an equal footing with the other independent nations of the world instead of waiting to see what Westminster will let us do.

 

Yes all well and good. But at the time of the 2014 vote, we hadn't secured sucession status, didn't meet any of the criteria to join the EU and Salmond had been caught lying about seeking advice on it. On top of that the SG went to court to block the findings of a report that didn't exist.

 

They were de facto proposing leaving without a deal. Whether you care about that is another matter, just pointing out the irony in regards the SNP's position of the last four years and their complete about turn since yesterday. 

[kila]

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

Yes all well and good. But at the time of the 2014 vote, we hadn't secured sucession status, didn't meet any of the criteria to join the EU and Salmond had been caught lying about seeking advice on it. On top of that the SG went to court to block the findings of a report that didn't exist.

 

They were de facto proposing leaving without a deal. Whether you care about that is another matter, just pointing out the irony in regards the SNP's position of the last four years and their complete about turn since yesterday. 

 

The situation back in 2014 might've not had too much sympathy from the EU (especially Spain) but the situation now clearly does.

 

A second referendum is inevitable, and it'll be cemented in the summer elections. The EU will want to retain Scotland and I think the EU will make their position clear enough over accepting Scotland prior to IndyRef2 as some groundwork will have already been laid.

 

2021 is going to be another year of this sort of thing. The Brexit chaos is not going to away and it'll only get louder as people realise what they've lost.

 

[pablo]

1 minute ago, kila said:

 

The situation back in 2014 might've not had too much sympathy from the EU (especially Spain) but the situation now clearly does.

 

A second referendum is inevitable, and it'll be cemented in the summer elections. The EU will want to retain Scotland and I think the EU will make their position clear enough over accepting Scotland prior to IndyRef2 as some groundwork will have already been laid.

 

2021 is going to be another year of this sort of thing. The Brexit chaos is not going to away and it'll only get louder as people realise what they've lost.

 

 

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking going on Kila. The first step is to be granted the opportunity for holding the second referendum.

 

Not impossible, but inevitable might be pushing it a bit.

 

That's the easy bit.

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, dicksojo said:

I get that. Unfortunately the economic well being of Scotland remains being a part of the uk. For me that is all that really matters.

This man gets it spot on 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

14 minutes ago, kila said:

 

The situation back in 2014 might've not had too much sympathy from the EU (especially Spain) but the situation now clearly does.

 

A second referendum is inevitable, and it'll be cemented in the summer elections. The EU will want to retain Scotland and I think the EU will make their position clear enough over accepting Scotland prior to IndyRef2 as some groundwork will have already been laid.

 

2021 is going to be another year of this sort of thing. The Brexit chaos is not going to away and it'll only get louder as people realise what they've lost.

 

If there is a second independence referendum, should there not be a second EU referendum? 

[manaliveits105]

It’s the unanimous decision of @theSNP MPs to vote against Johnson’s #BrexitDeal. Scotland’s Govt & representatives were cut out of the negotiations that led to it. Our country’s interests are not served by it. We won’t own it. Our focus is #independence

 

 

Cherry another erse in the snp conveyor belt of erses 

I love how the snp have all been told to not refer to the Prime Minister by his first name 

but always say "Johnson" - very petty and immature 

 

Get them oot !

[Unknown user]

58 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yes all well and good. But at the time of the 2014 vote, we hadn't secured sucession status, didn't meet any of the criteria to join the EU and Salmond had been caught lying about seeking advice on it. On top of that the SG went to court to block the findings of a report that didn't exist.

 

They were de facto proposing leaving without a deal. Whether you care about that is another matter, just pointing out the irony in regards the SNP's position of the last four years and their complete about turn since yesterday. 

No they weren't, they were proposing leaving the UK. There was never any assumption of no deal being struck with the EU in the intervening notice period, it's a bullshit argument.

[NANOJAMBO]

21 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

It’s the unanimous decision of @theSNP MPs to vote against Johnson’s #BrexitDeal. Scotland’s Govt & representatives were cut out of the negotiations that led to it. Our country’s interests are not served by it. We won’t own it. Our focus is #independence

 

 

Cherry another erse in the snp conveyor belt of erses 

I love how the snp have all been told to not refer to the Prime Minister by his first name 

but always say "Johnson" - very petty and immature 

 

Get them oot !

You consistently post the most self-opinionated, appalling drivel. 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

Post brexit I expect the unionist argument to focus on a external border between Scotland and England.  I think the Independence campaign will have to address this head on and state that any border arrangements will have to be agreed  between the two sovereign states and an external border is a possible outcome. 

 

An external border would make joining the EU easier.  Wikipedia tells me that 44 such borders already exist in Europe,  the Independence campaign need to have a grown up discussion about how they operate and what it would mean for cross border jobs particularly. 

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

There doesn't need to be a (hard) border but Scotland would have a choice to make : whether to focus on future EU membership and so reduce it's dependency on England  : just as Ireland did in deciding to focus on the EU rather than historical ties/trade with the UK. In which case , as you say, there would have to be a hard border in the longer term. 

[pablo]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

No they weren't, they were proposing leaving the UK. There was never any assumption of no deal being struck with the EU in the intervening notice period, it's a bullshit argument.

 

By virtue of leaving the UK we would have been starting from a no deal position. A new application for membership as a new sovereign state, and all that that entails. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

Post brexit I expect the unionist argument to focus on a external border between Scotland and England.  I think the Independence campaign will have to address this head on and state that any border arrangements will have to be agreed  between the two sovereign states and an external border is a possible outcome. 

 

An external border would make joining the EU easier.  Wikipedia tells me that 44 such borders already exist in Europe,  the Independence campaign need to have a grown up discussion about how they operate and what it would mean for cross border jobs particularly. 

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

Having a grown up discussion with Westminster is difficult as we all know! They treat Scotland with utter disdain. How Scots put up with this is beyond any rational thoughts. They will fight dirty as they always do. Equal partners in this union my rear end!

[Unknown user]

Just now, pablo said:

 

By virtue of leaving the UK we would have been starting from a no deal position. A new application for membership as a new sovereign state, and all that that entails. 

You're the only one talking about joining the EU as opposed to making a deal with them.

[The Real Maroonblood]

16 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You consistently post the most self-opinionated, appalling drivel. 

 

[dicksojo]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Having a grown up discussion with Westminster is difficult as we all know! They treat Scotland with utter disdain. How Scots put up with this is beyond any rational thoughts. They will fight dirty as they always do. Equal partners in this union my rear end!

I don’t understand this equal partners bit. Do you think Scotland and England and Wales and Northern Ireland should all have an equal say in what goes on in the United Kingdom? That’s very undemocratic. My vote counts for as much as someone’s vote from Cardiff, Belfast or London. The fact that England has the vast majority of the proportion of the electorate is just that, a matter of fact.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, dicksojo said:

I don’t understand this equal partners bit. Do you think Scotland and England and Wales and Northern Ireland should all have an equal say in what goes on in the United Kingdom? That’s very undemocratic. My vote counts for as much as someone’s vote from Cardiff, Belfast or London. The fact that England has the vast majority of the proportion of the electorate is just that, a matter of fact.

 

Whether it's democratic or not is really pretty irrelevant to the constitutional order of the United Kingdom as established. It includes plenty of other entirely undemocratic elements such as the monarchy and the House of Lords.

 

Not to mention the gladhandling lines about the relationship of the nations that are spouted, and were especially around the 2014 referendum.

[Mikey1874]

 

[manaliveits105]

Why would anyone take £10000 in cash anywhere never mind Norn Iron 

[manaliveits105]

59 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You consistently post the most self-opinionated, appalling drivel. 

 

obviously I dont agree with the cult's opinions so Im not allowed one 

but you got a smiley face from a cult so all is well 

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Taffin said:

I'm anti-brexit but I'm curious as to why people keep saying Scotland didn't vote for Brexit?

 

Whilst that's true, becauseScotland didn't vote on Brexit at all, I don't think it's being meant in that way by those saying it.  Scotland did have a chance to control their destiny in regards to Europe but democratically chose not to take that route.

Every region in Scotland voted to stay in the EU at around an average of 62-63%, which clearly shows the people who voted wanted to stay. 
Better Together said voting No would guarantee EU status, that ended up being wrong and is one reason more people now back independence. 
Another vote will need to be held after independence but it’s likely to win and allow Scotland to ask to join.  

[redjambo]

13 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

It won't be ignored where it counts.

 

I think it's a bit of an own goal by the SNP, obviously completely political. The SNP stated that they would have the right to re-address the question of independence if anything material changed and now they want to emphatically make the case that Brexit has been such a material change (which is correct, imo). Voting against the deal is their way of starting the ball rolling. However, given the terrible repercussions of a no-deal Brexit, they are going to be cast in a bad light with a lot of voters as a result of this stance. They should have decided to abstain as this would have still allowed them to forcibly make their point (and in an even better way too - "We can't be involved in voting at all for such a terrible decision which will lead to the impoverishing of Scotland").

 

And, if this is what you are alluding to, I don't think the EU will look on the SNP's decision favourably either.

 

[Pasquale for King]

49 minutes ago, dicksojo said:

I don’t understand this equal partners bit. Do you think Scotland and England and Wales and Northern Ireland should all have an equal say in what goes on in the United Kingdom? That’s very undemocratic. My vote counts for as much as someone’s vote from Cardiff, Belfast or London. The fact that England has the vast majority of the proportion of the electorate is just that, a matter of fact.

It is indeed but why should Scotland continually get a government it doesn’t vote for? 
Also EVEL means MPs from Scotland can’t vote on matters that will impact on us, such as HS2, infrastructure in England or cuts to the NHS that cost us money. 
The EU for instance has a much fairer voting system where states are more equal no matter the size of the country. 

[Mikey1874]

Not just health insurance required

 

 

[jack D and coke]

I’d like to think brexit is done and we could all move on a bit but let’s not forget these puppets up here that masquerade as looking after Scotland until they get telt by their bosses what’s what...

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by jack D and coke

[Justin Z]

11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

And, if this is what you are alluding to, I don't think the EU will look on the SNP's decision favourably either.

 

A cursory glance by anyone in the EU at the derision with which the SNP's (and by extension, Scottish government's) proposed amendments have been treated at Westminster, and how Scotland itself has been treated throughout the entire process, will help them easily understand why this expectation that they just roll over and vote for this harmful deal is ridiculous.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

A cursory glance by anyone in the EU at the derision with which the SNP's (and by extension, Scottish government's) proposed amendments have been treated at Westminster, and how Scotland itself has been treated throughout the entire process, will help them easily understand why this expectation that they just roll over and vote for this harmful deal is ridiculous.

 

Indeed. Which is why they should abstain.

 

A no-deal is very bad for the EU too - we shouldn't be voting for something which is bad news for an organisation to which we will hopefully apply for membership at some point, particularly after the lengths the EU has gone to accommodate the UK's shenanigans in the agreement. I don't think the EU will look particularly favourably on the SNP doing so.

[Cade]

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

[Justin Z]

11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Indeed. Which is why they should abstain.

 

A no-deal is very bad for the EU too - we shouldn't be voting for something which is bad news for an organisation to which we will hopefully apply for membership at some point, particularly after the lengths the EU has gone to accommodate the UK's shenanigans in the agreement. I don't think the EU will look particularly favourably on the SNP doing so.

 

If you can explain to me the practical difference abstention would make, versus voting no, then I'll change my opinion on whether no/abstain matters.

 

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

 

Exactly.

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 minutes ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If you can explain to me the practical difference abstention would make, versus voting no, then I'll change my opinion on whether no/abstain matters.

 

To the result of the vote it will matter not a jot. To the message that it sends out, to both those Scottish voters for whom a no deal is anathema (the vast majority of us) and to the EU, that the SNP were willing to actually effectively vote for a no-deal situation which would impoverish our nation even further than the current deal will, purely for reasons of politics, it means a great deal. It is not a vote winner by any stretch of the imagination, and the SNP needs to get as many folk on board as it can in the months and years ahead, not alienate them.

[Boof]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

 

Cherry another erse in the snp conveyor belt of erses 

I love how the snp have all been told to not refer to the Prime Minister by his first name 

but always say "Johnson" - very petty and immature 

 

Get them oot !

 

You really are a tiresome troll.

 

How many of the UK's previous prime ministers have you habitually referred to by their first name?

 

Theresa?

David?

Gordon?

Tony?

John?

Margaret?
James?

Harold?
Edward?

 

I'd take a stab at not a single one.

 

The use of 'Boris' by the right-wing media and similarly-minded (or empty-minded) morons to convey some sort of cute and cuddly pesona is particularly nauseating. The guy is indisputably unfit for the office he currently holds.

[redjambo]

7 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

You really are a tiresome troll.

 

How many of the UK's previous prime ministers have you habitually referred to by their first name?

 

Theresa?

David?

Gordon?

Tony?

John?

Margaret?
James?

Harold?
Edward?

 

I'd take a stab at not a single one.

 

The use of 'Boris' by the right-wing media and similarly-minded (or empty-minded) morons to convey some sort of cute and cuddly pesona is particularly nauseating. The guy is indisputably unfit for the office he currently holds.

 

When I use the term "Boris" to refer to our current PM, the ideas of "cute" and "cuddly" are the furthest from my mind.

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

You really are a tiresome troll.

 

How many of the UK's previous prime ministers have you habitually referred to by their first name?

 

Theresa?

David?

Gordon?

Tony?

John?

Margaret?
James?

Harold?
Edward?

 

I'd take a stab at not a single one.

 

The use of 'Boris' by the right-wing media and similarly-minded (or empty-minded) morons to convey some sort of cute and cuddly pesona is particularly nauseating. The guy is indisputably unfit for the office he currently holds.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Scotland:

Voted heavily against leaving the EU

Had no input in the leaving negotiations with the EU

Was not consulted by Westminster on any aspect of the deal

Is told to shut up and accept it

 

Is also expected to just rubber stamp the deal?!

 

Naw.

It was a UK vote. Hopefully this information is useful.