Meet the Management event

[smiler]

You had to come on and apologise earlier for last night.

Yet here you are again doing similar.

It makes the thread hard to read and that's a pity because there has been some great posts and discussion on it.

It's the drink mate, thrush loves a midweek guzzle

[Mars plastic]

It's the drink mate, thrush loves a midweek guzzle

Thrush. :lol:

[Rudy T]

That is undoubtedly true Geoff. I have to be honest and say I do find it difficult when you have a coach, who himself, at outset said HMFC shouldn't be just willing to accept poor results, but there are a number of HMFC fans who seem willing to accept them, because that is the way it has always been with HMFC. I, personally have never believed we have a god given right to win every game, but I do think there is nothing wrong with having an expectation we will win a large percentage of them. I also have no objection whatsoever to people asking questions and trying to gain an understanding of what is happening in the background. I didn't attend the management meeting at Tynecastle, but I was in at a meeting with Ann and Craig on Saturday morning, and a lot of questions were asked and answered. There was an admission that the last two transfer windows have not gone well, and an additional source are being employed to help make sure that players coming in from overseas clubs will be much better vetted to make sure the style of play here suits them and they will suit playing in Scotland. Although not brought up we were aware that the injury to Callum Paterson did play a huge part in what effectively became a sense of panic buying in January of this year. It does appear Callum was due to move to West Ham in the New Year transfer window, for a 7 figure sum, and the club were making plans around that, for new players coming in.

 

When Callum then injured himself in the match against Kilmarnock on 27 December it threw everything that was being planned out of the window. I have a feeling, although we didn't ask, but I suspect that decisions on the likes of Rossi and Ozturk leaving, for example, had been based on suitable players coming in. Again, rethinking was needed. Were they right players, I tend to think probably not, but they were players that were available, and we needed to add to the squad. It doesn't help when you are aware the players are very enthusiastic about what Cathro and McPhee have brought to the club, bit it just wasn't gelling on the park. Everyone is still very enthusiastic that they do have what it takes to build the sort of team that can be challenging at the top end of the league, even if that is something that even some Hearts fans don't really care about, there are some fans who don't seem to care if we are not in a challenging position. It was said we are away behind Celtic, and there is absolutely no denying that, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be winning against the other sides in the league, once the ideas in hand translate to the style of play wanted on the field.

 

I am one who has voiced concern about how we have been playing, not just recently but certainly across parts of the last two seasons, but I am willing to wait and see how we start next season. The club are aware we will be starting our league fixtures away from home, and that the purchase of players for the start of the season coming has to be right. They also have confidence in Cathro, and I am willing to give him the opportunity to look to build something over the close season break. I spoke to a few people at work who were at last night's meeting and they too were please with what they were hearing last night. I think we were, in the main pissed off to a certain extent, this season. Craig Levein himself said that (in a game we actually lost due to two daft mistakes, which no coach could pre-plan for) the best football we have played since coming out of administration was in the game up at Dens Park just before Christmas, and that it was frustrating that we could play as well as that but also look so awful at times.

 

I will be renewing my ST, I will be following on every week home and away again next season, I do have high hopes for my team (I actually thought that would be the norm for any HMFC fan, but sometimes when I read this site I'm just not so sure) but at this point in time we can only hope that what the coaching staff want to do with the team does transpire and we can begin to enjoy what we watch again, and punish those teams we are capable of punishing, and cement a position much closer to Celtic in the coming season.

Thanks for posting that PJ1. I said earlier I'm resigned to the fact they're here for the new season. It's somewhat reassuring that they at least recognise how bad recruitment is and are addressing that. All we can do is sit back let them get on with it and see what happens.

 

I also agree regarding expectations, we are as big a club as Aberdeen and we certainly shouldn't be this far behind them.

[the big show]

Alex Neil? Was that serious? I only ask because he has stated that he wants to continue working in England. Would you tear up our whole corporate strategy, sack Levein, Cathro and McPhee on the chance that Alex Neil might fancy coming north where he'll get 6 months to put a whole new strategy into operation (by himself) or else he'll also get the "Oot" treatment? 

 

You were joking right?

This whole corporate strategy you mention has been rank rotten for going on a year and a half now and ignoring it will not take it away so please don;t kid anybody on that it is now some sort of super plan from our DOF and his misfits  .. Some of the decisions that has been made has been absolutely ludicrous and the excuses time again are starting to wear a bit thin ..  Now in regards to Alex Neil i would trust him before i would trust our DOF or Cathro or McPhee  .. so yes it is serious why it would not be ? what has Levein won that makes him so special ... exactly he has won plums and not only that he shat the bed on one of the biggest day's in the clubs history ..  short memory's a few on here .

[deejtee]

Unless these people are putting money into the club then their supposed allegiance is utterly irrelevant - at least for the moment. You may as well call us a "sleeping giant" if that cliche suits? At least glory hunters turn up and help pay the overheads!

 

Currenlty, regarding Hearts as a big club can only be done if you are totally parochial in the way you make the judgement. We are big in Edinburgh terms, of that there is no doubt. We are not big in Scottish terms for precisely the reasons you say yourself. We are tiny in UK terms and we are miniscule in World terms. 

 

I never "get" why people get so excited by Hearts being the "Best of the Rest" - woo-hoo 3rd place again! It's a nonsense - being "bigger than Hibs and Aberdeen" doesn't really excite me. Especially when the self-same people then tell me they have "winner's mentality" and we should be destroying all the "wee teams". It's all bollocks, utterly contradictory bollocks. I don't accept it and I don't settle for it. i think Hearts CAN beat the Old Firm, but the only way we can do this is to build organically. We have no billionaire supporters.

 

People are very despondent about Scottish football at the moment, but if Hearts actually succeed in implementing our current strategy then this is the right time! 

 

In a few years time Celtic will get 10 in a row and they will cease to be so parochial and self-seeking. By all likelihood Rangers could still be a basket case. Celtic will want some competition, in fact they will NEED competition, as CL is not enough to keep their STs at 60k...If we can bring through youth and sell them to England in 3-4 years time, and reinvest in more youth and QUALITY senior foreign/UK players whose footballing ambition is not to end up at Rangers or Celtic, then it could become cyclical. We HAVE to get and retain a reputation for excellence at youth level & importantly giving youth a chance to progress. This is the thing that Celtic by and large still cannot afford the risk of doing and Rangers just seem to have no interest in doing... Then you get all the peripheral stuff like community work and kids wanting to be Hearts fans not Celtic, Man City or Chelsea fans. It is the stuff Vlad wanted to do but didn't... The one thing we don't bloody need though is all the negative, whinging short-termist moaners.

 

Honestly, moaning is the easiest thing in the World to do. Hearts fans do far too much of it. (It annoys me that I feel like I'm moaning about others moaning!)

We will have to disagree if you think Hearts are not a big club in Scottish terms but think we should mount a sustained and sometimes successful league challenge to Celtic (and Rangers who are too big to not recover in time). No-one else has won the league since the old firm upped the game money wise (dishonestly at times in Ranger's case) and since then the gap has widened.  A saner and truly wealthy Vlad was our best shot and it is disheartening, perhaps less so if one believes we are not a relatively big club in Scotland. 

[Spellczech]

In answer to your question, managers have a shelf life. The last season where a manager met and surpassed all expectations was Robbie in the second tier.

 

I would say the last manager who left before his time was up was Sergio if your question is directed in that fashion.

Am I right to infer that your view on football managers is that they inevitably fail because they all have a "shelf life"? In your World you are supportive of all Hearts managers until you perceive them to be failing, at which point you agitate for them to be sacked? 

 

Let's talk about Sergio - did you enjoy his brand of football? The Cup win in 2012 made him a hero as did his PR efforts, but let's be honest it was pretty eye-bleeding stuff in the league that season? If he hadn't won the Cup would you have lost faith in him that May? Did the Cup win buy him another season of potentially eye-bleeding football in your book?

[amadjambo]

Thanks for posting that PJ1. I said earlier I'm resigned to the fact they're here for the new season. It's somewhat reassuring that they at least recognise how bad recruitment is and are addressing that. All we can do is sit back let them get on with it and see what happens.

 

I also agree regarding expectations, we are as big a club as Aberdeen and we certainly shouldn't be this far behind them.

Did you notice the shirt numbers of the Aberdeen side last weekend? Practically 1-11, with Pawlett at 16 being the only exception I can recall. They have a settled side built over time, and they play to their strengths. We are miles behind them right now, but the gap certainly isn't insurmountable with a great summer and a bit of luck.

 

I notice the Dundee away game was mentioned by another poster. In our relegation reason it was often wondered what would have happened to our season had we not thrown away that lead away to Ross County. I wonder the same about Dundee that night. We were great but 2 brain farts from a young player cost us and we never got any momentum building. Would things have been different had we held on for a win? Who knows.

[Spellczech]

This whole corporate strategy you mention has been rank rotten for going on a year and a half now and ignoring it will not take it away so please don;t kid anybody on that it is now some sort of super plan from our DOF and his misfits  .. Some of the decisions that has been made has been absolutely ludicrous and the excuses time again are starting to wear a bit thin ..  Now in regards to Alex Neil i would trust him before i would trust our DOF or Cathro or McPhee  .. so yes it is serious why it would not be ? what has Levein won that makes him so special ... exactly he has won plums and not only that he shat the bed on one of the biggest day's in the clubs history ..  short memory's a few on here .

 

There is nothing wrong with the strategy at all. The implementation of the strategy is where it has gone a bit squee-wiff...

 

You would trust Alex Neill? Do you know him? Have you interviewed him? He may be great but I find your "trust" frankly, unbelievable...

 

This is what it comes down to... May 1986? That was a bitter pill for all who remember it, but I am not so petty or misguided as to try to place all the blame upon Levein. Team games seldom work that way...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Am I right to infer that your view on football managers is that they inevitably fail because they all have a "shelf life"? In your World you are supportive of all Hearts managers until you perceive them to be failing, at which point you agitate for them to be sacked?

 

Let's talk about Sergio - did you enjoy his brand of football? The Cup win in 2012 made him a hero as did his PR efforts, but let's be honest it was pretty eye-bleeding stuff in the league that season? If he hadn't won the Cup would you have lost faith in him that May? Did the Cup win buy him another season of potentially eye-bleeding football in your book?

In answer to your first point, exactly. Most people think like that too.

 

On Sergio, I wouldn't say he started well and he struggled to shape the team in his fashion initially but by the end of the season his vision and style of play were coming together with the semi being a tactical masterclass. This is why I was desperate to see him given another season but shit happens.

[Spellczech]

We will have to disagree if you think Hearts are not a big club in Scottish terms but think we should mount a sustained and sometimes successful league challenge to Celtic (and Rangers who are too big to not recover in time). No-one else has won the league since the old firm upped the game money wise (dishonestly at times in Ranger's case) and since then the gap has widened.  A saner and truly wealthy Vlad was our best shot and it is disheartening, perhaps less so if one believes we are not a relatively big club in Scotland. 

We're not big. We are potentially big for the reasons you gave. However, until we get at least one of the folliowing:

 

-Gates of at least half those of the OF,

-another wealthy benefactor willing to squander it on football,

-a conveyor belt of transfer income

 

we cannot compete and we will just be picking up the crumbs from the OF table...Only way to fix it is the current strategy - but implemented with more success than at present. What would be disheartening would be if we start talking of 3rd being our aim again (Robbie used to irritate me with this sort of chat)

[luckydug]

Wee bit disappointed that a post claiming Hearts aren't even a big club in Scotland has got more praise than pretty much any post I've ever seen on here. I think we are a big club in Scotland. We should be thinking and acting like billy big baws to every club outside Celtic and probably still Rangers unfortunately.

 

 

Not only that he went out of his way to

paint the Hearts support as a bunch of hooligans while belittling every achievement the club has managed.

Although there were some good points about Cathro his whole posting style is a bit condescending .

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

We're not big. We are potentially big for the reasons you gave. However, until we get at least one of the folliowing:

 

-Gates of at least half those of the OF,

-another wealthy benefactor willing to squander it on football,

-a conveyor belt of transfer income

 

we cannot compete and we will just be picking up the crumbs from the OF table...Only way to fix it is the current strategy - but implemented with more success than at present. What would be disheartening would be if we start talking of 3rd being our aim again (Robbie used to irritate me with this sort of chat)

OF cringe alert. Are you seriously equating this new version of Rangers with Celtic?

[JamboAl]

I'm basing my projection of Wright on his overachievement at one of the smallest clubs in the top tier. Based on that evidence, I project that he would do a better job at Hearts than Ian Cathro. Undoubtedly, that could be wrong but at least I have evidence to support it unlike your suppositions based on hope.

I do not wish to trade names but many many managers have failed to make the progression from good manager at small club to good manager at bigger club - and admittedly many have also succeeded but such a projection is far from evidence and more of hope.  Several bigger clubs like Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic, Newcastle have changed manager in the last 12 months and I've not seen him linked with any of them.  Maybe at 53 they reckon he's too old.

 

Re Cathro he has a CV many coaches in Scotland could only dream of and, given the opportunity of a proper transfer window, he has the chance to show his true worth by getting in players who suit what he is about.  Yes it is a hope, like you with Wright, but that would be the case whoever came in.  FWIW I am willing to give IC until say the end of October and if by then there are no strong signs of progression I will be thinking along the same lines as you.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I do not wish to trade names but many many managers have failed to make the progression from good manager at small club to good manager at bigger club - and admittedly many have also succeeded but such a projection is far from evidence and more of hope. Several bigger clubs like Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic, Newcastle have changed manager in the last 12 months and I've not seen him linked with any of them. Maybe at 53 they reckon he's too old.

 

Re Cathro he has a CV may coaches in Scotland could only dream of and, given the opportunity of a proper transfer window, he has the chance to show his true worth by getting in players who suit what he is about. Yes it is a hope, like you with Wright, but that would be the case whoever came in. FWIW I am willing to give IC until say the end fo October and if by then there are no strong signs of progression I will be thinking along the same lines as you.

That's fine. I suspect that those calling for Cathro's head are ahead of the curve.

 

In addition, if you end up thinking that Cathro should go, will you also think that the coaching conveyor belt needs questioned too?

[Francis Albert]

We have often finished below sides worse than the current St Johnstone team. Historically we haven't underperformed. We're the 3rd biggest team historically with the third best league record. Aberdeen had a golden few years that put them up at our level but we've been more consistent over our history.

We went 51 years between 1897 and 1958 without winning the league. We have won it 4 times in our entire history, while finishing second 14 times ("always the bridesmaid") We went 50 years between 1906 and 1956 without winning a Scottish Cup and won one in 92 years between 1906 and 1998 (not a whole lot different from Hibs record that we revelled in mocking). In most of those famine years there was nothing like the gap in financial resources between us and the OF that has existed in recent decades. (We contemplated building a 60,000 capacity ground just before WW2). We haven't won the league cup in 57 years. Even our greatest team in the late 50's underperformed and should have won more than two titles.

 

Of course historically we have vastly under- performed relative to our resources and potential. Failure to recognise that demonstrates a lack of ambition.

[Unknown user]

I take it you haven't been reading Kickback much today?

Correct, every now and again real life takes over

Why, what did I miss? Did the universe post to say that Mars is indeed the arbiter of All Apologies? (Nirvana reference intended, enjoying in utero very much today!)

[Spellczech]

I was happy with Neilson.

As regards the more than 2 brain cells bit I am happy that I have more than enough thanks and I don't actually think that time will make Cathro a success but it isn't impossible. As regards starting afresh it sometimes needs to happen when the conclusion is reached that the model is broken. Ours is closer to broken than on course. We all have experiences in our careers and few of them parallel a football club. It would not be a huge thing to change to go back to an experienced manager with rookie coach rather than our model. In that model you could actually still promote from within if you wanted. You amongst others talk about Cathro's system as if he actually has something new and innovative to offer. Where is the evidence for this? Box soccer? Lesser coaching roles in bigger clubs? His appointment was and remains a risky one. I hope in six months he has succeeded but if not there may be great difficulty in defending him.

Don't take the bit about braincells personally. It was not meant against you per se.

 

Cathro has one more transfer window and a pre-season then we'll see in October how it's going. In baseball parlance, Cathro has had one strike. His recruitment this summer is the second ball, and the first round of matches up to his anniversary in the job is potentially his third strike..If we are still an utter mess in October then I won't be supporting him any longer. If there are not at least signs of improvement in the first few games of next season, I'll be at least keeping quiet about his prospects.

 

I think I understand the way that Cathro wants Hearts to play. I'm comfortable with it, but he needs to actually get the team doing it. He hasn't so far. He acknowledges it, I do too and so does everyone. Will it really make any difference to us if we have a poor season in 2017/18? Christ we've still got another 5-6 years until we are due another cup win! 

[Spellczech]

OF cringe alert. Are you seriously equating this new version of Rangers with Celtic?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. So I was lazy by choosing to type "OF" - yeah, I really meant Celtic. As you can see from one of my other posts where I call Rangers a "basket case"...

[Cut The Crap]

That is undoubtedly true Geoff. I have to be honest and say I do find it difficult when you have a coach, who himself, at outset said HMFC shouldn't be just willing to accept poor results, but there are a number of HMFC fans who seem willing to accept them, because that is the way it has always been with HMFC. I, personally have never believed we have a god given right to win every game, but I do think there is nothing wrong with having an expectation we will win a large percentage of them. I also have no objection whatsoever to people asking questions and trying to gain an understanding of what is happening in the background. I didn't attend the management meeting at Tynecastle, but I was in at a meeting with Ann and Craig on Saturday morning, and a lot of questions were asked and answered. There was an admission that the last two transfer windows have not gone well, and an additional source are being employed to help make sure that players coming in from overseas clubs will be much better vetted to make sure the style of play here suits them and they will suit playing in Scotland. Although not brought up we were aware that the injury to Callum Paterson did play a huge part in what effectively became a sense of panic buying in January of this year. It does appear Callum was due to move to West Ham in the New Year transfer window, for a 7 figure sum, and the club were making plans around that, for new players coming in.

 

When Callum then injured himself in the match against Kilmarnock on 27 December it threw everything that was being planned out of the window. I have a feeling, although we didn't ask, but I suspect that decisions on the likes of Rossi and Ozturk leaving, for example, had been based on suitable players coming in. Again, rethinking was needed. Were they right players, I tend to think probably not, but they were players that were available, and we needed to add to the squad. It doesn't help when you are aware the players are very enthusiastic about what Cathro and McPhee have brought to the club, bit it just wasn't gelling on the park. Everyone is still very enthusiastic that they do have what it takes to build the sort of team that can be challenging at the top end of the league, even if that is something that even some Hearts fans don't really care about, there are some fans who don't seem to care if we are not in a challenging position. It was said we are away behind Celtic, and there is absolutely no denying that, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be winning against the other sides in the league, once the ideas in hand translate to the style of play wanted on the field.

 

I am one who has voiced concern about how we have been playing, not just recently but certainly across parts of the last two seasons, but I am willing to wait and see how we start next season. The club are aware we will be starting our league fixtures away from home, and that the purchase of players for the start of the season coming has to be right. They also have confidence in Cathro, and I am willing to give him the opportunity to look to build something over the close season break. I spoke to a few people at work who were at last night's meeting and they too were please with what they were hearing last night. I think we were, in the main pissed off to a certain extent, this season. Craig Levein himself said that (in a game we actually lost due to two daft mistakes, which no coach could pre-plan for) the best football we have played since coming out of administration was in the game up at Dens Park just before Christmas, and that it was frustrating that we could play as well as that but also look so awful at times.

 

I will be renewing my ST, I will be following on every week home and away again next season, I do have high hopes for my team (I actually thought that would be the norm for any HMFC fan, but sometimes when I read this site I'm just not so sure) but at this point in time we can only hope that what the coaching staff want to do with the team does transpire and we can begin to enjoy what we watch again, and punish those teams we are capable of punishing, and cement a position much closer to Celtic in the coming season.

Thanks for this, PJ1. Good to hear from the organ grinders at last, even if it is only second hand. Question that comes up for me though is that the whole point of CL is to help avoid the sorts of pitfalls we appear to have blundered into in the past 18 months. No doubt any of us on here could make a similar pig's ear of things - for a much smaller salary. Did he give any insights into his model or an update on the 5 year plan?

[Spellczech]

That is undoubtedly true Geoff. I have to be honest and say I do find it difficult when you have a coach, who himself, at outset said HMFC shouldn't be just willing to accept poor results, but there are a number of HMFC fans who seem willing to accept them, because that is the way it has always been with HMFC. I, personally have never believed we have a god given right to win every game, but I do think there is nothing wrong with having an expectation we will win a large percentage of them. I also have no objection whatsoever to people asking questions and trying to gain an understanding of what is happening in the background. I didn't attend the management meeting at Tynecastle, but I was in at a meeting with Ann and Craig on Saturday morning, and a lot of questions were asked and answered. There was an admission that the last two transfer windows have not gone well, and an additional source are being employed to help make sure that players coming in from overseas clubs will be much better vetted to make sure the style of play here suits them and they will suit playing in Scotland. Although not brought up we were aware that the injury to Callum Paterson did play a huge part in what effectively became a sense of panic buying in January of this year. It does appear Callum was due to move to West Ham in the New Year transfer window, for a 7 figure sum, and the club were making plans around that, for new players coming in.

 

When Callum then injured himself in the match against Kilmarnock on 27 December it threw everything that was being planned out of the window. I have a feeling, although we didn't ask, but I suspect that decisions on the likes of Rossi and Ozturk leaving, for example, had been based on suitable players coming in. Again, rethinking was needed. Were they right players, I tend to think probably not, but they were players that were available, and we needed to add to the squad. It doesn't help when you are aware the players are very enthusiastic about what Cathro and McPhee have brought to the club, bit it just wasn't gelling on the park. Everyone is still very enthusiastic that they do have what it takes to build the sort of team that can be challenging at the top end of the league, even if that is something that even some Hearts fans don't really care about, there are some fans who don't seem to care if we are not in a challenging position. It was said we are away behind Celtic, and there is absolutely no denying that, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be winning against the other sides in the league, once the ideas in hand translate to the style of play wanted on the field.

 

I am one who has voiced concern about how we have been playing, not just recently but certainly across parts of the last two seasons, but I am willing to wait and see how we start next season. The club are aware we will be starting our league fixtures away from home, and that the purchase of players for the start of the season coming has to be right. They also have confidence in Cathro, and I am willing to give him the opportunity to look to build something over the close season break. I spoke to a few people at work who were at last night's meeting and they too were please with what they were hearing last night. I think we were, in the main pissed off to a certain extent, this season. Craig Levein himself said that (in a game we actually lost due to two daft mistakes, which no coach could pre-plan for) the best football we have played since coming out of administration was in the game up at Dens Park just before Christmas, and that it was frustrating that we could play as well as that but also look so awful at times.

 

I will be renewing my ST, I will be following on every week home and away again next season, I do have high hopes for my team (I actually thought that would be the norm for any HMFC fan, but sometimes when I read this site I'm just not so sure) but at this point in time we can only hope that what the coaching staff want to do with the team does transpire and we can begin to enjoy what we watch again, and punish those teams we are capable of punishing, and cement a position much closer to Celtic in the coming season.

I think most of the squabbles come from people not distinguishing between "aspirations" and "expectations" - like in the quotes above... They are 2 very different things. There is no sniff of arrogance in hope. As Hearts fans who have experienced a paucity of silverwear whether it be in our lifetimes or even the history of the club, it smacks of unmerited arrogance to say we expect to win. I cannot imagine anything as dull as turning up to watch a match knowing your team is going to win? Where is the sport in that? Watching football is about the contest not just celebrating the win. Celebrating the win can be done by just checking results...there is no need to be there.

 

When a team is playing well, then you can be confident of a win, but to just expect it "because we are Hearts" - well that's just daft...For me it is totally contrary to most of my experiences as an Hearts fan. I have dreams of us competing with the OF (now mainly Celtic  - this one's for you Geoff!), of winning the league in my lifetime. However, I'd be bloody stupid to expect it...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think most of the squabbles come from people not distinguishing between "aspirations" and "expectations" - like in the quotes above... They are 2 very different things. There is no sniff of arrogance in hope. As Hearts fans who have experienced a paucity of silverwear whether it be in our lifetimes or even the history of the club, it smacks of unmerited arrogance to say we expect to win. I cannot imagine anything as dull as turning up to watch a match knowing your team is going to win? Where is the sport in that? Watching football is about the contest not just celebrating the win. Celebrating the win can be done by just checking results...there is no need to be there.

 

When a team is playing well, then you can be confident of a win, but to just expect it "because we are Hearts" - well that's just daft...For me it is totally contrary to most of my experiences as an Hearts fan. I have dreams of us competing with the OF (now mainly Celtic - this one's for you Geoff!), of winning the league in my lifetime. However, I'd be bloody stupid to expect it...

That's a lot of words to fudge things. Quite simply, we are underperforming against Aberdeen, our benchmark, and underperforming compared to teams with a fraction of our resources, St Johnstone and Partick. Who is accountable for that?

[JamboAl]

That's fine. I suspect that those calling for Cathro's head are ahead of the curve.

 

In addition, if you end up thinking that Cathro should go, will you also think that the coaching conveyor belt needs questioned too?

And if it succeeds you're behind the curve now.

If it fails It certainly will need questioned but not necessarily discarded.  At that point we need to take a step back and consider all aspects but definitely no knee-jerk actions.  Personally I am not convinced about the coaching conveyor belt because if it is successful all coaches cannot be H/Coach at the same so some will leave to progress and I don't want to be training coaches for other clubs.

Apparently this is a quote from your nation's assistant manager last night that you may wish to reflect on

 

 

?Michael O?Neil didn?t win a game in his first 16. He then went on the longest run of unbeaten games in the history of the country.?

[Jammy T]

Great post PJ1

 

And that's a nightmare for Paterson....

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

And if it succeeds you're behind the curve now.

If it fails It certainly will need questioned but not necessarily discarded. At that point we need to take a step back and consider all aspects but definitely no knee-jerk actions. Personally I am not convinced about the coaching conveyor belt because if it is successful all coaches cannot be H/Coach at the same so some will leave to progress and I don't want to be training coaches for other clubs.

Apparently this is a quote from your nation's assistant manager last night that you may wish to reflect on

 

 

?Michael O?Neil didn?t win a game in his first 16. He then went on the longest run of unbeaten games in the history of the country.?

If and ands.

 

On Michael O'Neill, the difference with Northern Ireland is that we have no expectations, although losing to Luxembourg was very poor. Hearts have standards which Cathro isn't getting anywhere near.

 

Edit: Put it another way - if Michael O'Neill was manager of Scotland and started in that fashion, would he have been given time to turn it around?

[Coco]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/hearts/austin-macphee-steals-the-show-at-hearts-coaches-event-1-4441181

 

I don't see anything particularly innovative. As for the plan to play a high line where does that fit with the resignings of Hughes and Hamilton neither of whom are capable of that. And why sign the immobile Martin if we are to play a pressing game?

[1971fozzy]

Fair play to them for actually standing up and taking questions. The next 3 games should be written off with this squad. To be fair to Cathro he's said that some players haven't cut it and will be off. No way does this squad have it in hem to take points in these 3 games.

Looks like we'll have IC and AM next season so suppose it's time to back them otherwise it's going to be a painful summer.

Fully expecting some of these wage thiefs that masquerade on a pitch to down tools for the remaining games so this season is now dead to me and it's all about the window and next

[the big show]

There is nothing wrong with the strategy at all. The implementation of the strategy is where it has gone a bit squee-wiff...

 

You would trust Alex Neill? Do you know him? Have you interviewed him? He may be great but I find your "trust" frankly, unbelievable...

 

This is what it comes down to... May 1986? That was a bitter pill for all who remember it, but I am not so petty or misguided as to try to place all the blame upon Levein. Team games seldom work that way...

No it does not come down to this at all .... The man has made countless mistakes etc etc and yet he does not seem accountable for nothing yet he is the one who puts them in place and yet they take all the stick ... Next thing i know Levein though and he is one of the worst gamblers i have ever came across and bar a certain individual pulling him out the keek lets just say he was in serious trouble ok ..... Now i could not give two hoots how he gambles his own money but when you look at some of the contracts handed out and the amount of money being wasted surely there comes a time he should be taken to task no ... Next was Neilson interviewed .. was Cathro or McPhee .... Exactly ... Ask your self why he never comes out and says anything ... ffs is it the secret service and do bear in mind the fans are pumping money in left hand right and centre and they are asking for even more . Next if the implementation of the strategy is were it has gone wrong ? it's been garbage for about a year and a half so what makes you think this strategy is right in the 1st place .. Its one thing talking but nothing will beat results on the park and sadly that is what the paying customer wants a team on the park that can compete in all comps .. Really big decisions coming up in this summer window .... 

[Ivan Drago]

Actually pretty encouraged by stuff they said and thanks to those who shared. What I'm clinging to is that they simply got January horribly wrong and they'll learn from it quickly. They're smart guys, they got cocky, were probably so sure of their methods they thought you could almost play anyone, signed some total dross but will now devote far more time and concentration into the players we sign. That's my hope anyway.

That's a valid point but it seems they've managed to convince everyone that the January window is the reason we've been so poor.

 

It doesn't seem like they addressed why every player that was already here has got worse since they came in, or why some of the guys signed in January got off to (relatively) decent starts only to fall off a cliff performance wise after that.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/hearts/austin-macphee-steals-the-show-at-hearts-coaches-event-1-4441181

 

I don't see anything particularly innovative. As for the plan to play a high line where does that fit with the resignings of Hughes and Hamilton neither of whom are capable of that. And why sign the immobile Martin if we are to play a pressing game?

That's where I'm at. We are trying to play a style of football that we can't afford. That's exactly the reason why we see ourselves struggling to keep 5th place after previously competing for 3rd.

[Finlay James]

That's a valid point but it seems they've managed to convince everyone that the January window is the reason we've been so poor.

It doesn't seem like they addressed why every player that was already here has got worse since they came in, or why some of the guys signed in January got off to (relatively) decent starts only to fall off a cliff performance wise after that.

This is my issue as well. If every club waited for the 'right' player to become available nobody would ever progress therefore you need to cut your cloth accordingly and adapt what you have to a style that suits them. We haven't done this and seem to have written off this season which is disappointing.

 

That said, I was very encouraged by what they said and I'm fully behind them.

[Colonel Kurtz]

If you were reviewing it professionally on presentation skills

Cathro

Started well repeating his mantra "It will work"a la mays strong and stable.Allowed himself to be distracted by a minor heckle and voice and confidence faltered.

Little humour and over reliance on aides .some of which became boring and lost audience attention.

Needs coaching....5/10

Macphee

Relaxed and engaging style..knew his audience and played to his strengths

Was very much the main event to cathros support act and one wonders if this was appropriate given their relative hierarchical positions

8/10. Good effort harnessing natural empathetic skills

E

[JamboAl]

If and ands.

 

On Michael O'Neill, the difference with Northern Ireland is that we have no expectations, although losing to Luxembourg was very poor. Hearts have standards which Cathro isn't getting anywhere near.

 

Edit: Put it another way - if Michael O'Neill was manager of Scotland and started in that fashion, would he have been given time to turn it around?

Could that also not apply with Wright?  St Johnstone have much lower expectations than Hearts so there has been less pressure on him.

 

What I am really getting at is that you would have been really proud, and rightly so, with N, Ireland's performance on the world stage but because you only deal in results and evidence you would have had O'Neil and McPhee hounded out the door long before a 16 game winless run.  Therein lies the danger of not looking at the bigger picture and not wanting to look at it.

[Nookie Bear]

That's a lot of words to fudge things. Quite simply, we are underperforming against Aberdeen, our benchmark, and underperforming compared to teams with a fraction of our resources, St Johnstone and Partick. Who is accountable for that?

 

We were easily outperforming the likes of St J and Partick, and matching Aberdeen, until Cathro and Macphee took over - at which point we have plummeted,

 

This hasn't been an unexplained drop in form, there was a clear 'moment' where it all went wrong.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Could that also not apply with Wright? St Johnstone have much lower expectations than Hearts so there has been less pressure on him.

 

What I am really getting at is that you would have been really proud, and rightly so, with N, Ireland's performance on the world stage but because you only deal in results and evidence you would have had O'Neil and McPhee hounded out the door long before a 16 game winless run. Therein lies the danger of not looking at the bigger picture and not wanting to look at it.

Actually, I wouldn't because my judgement is based on the strength of opponent too. Locke, for example, got a mulligan for most of the admin season but when you lose a semi final against 9 men and whinge like a bitch about squad size, you deserve to get emptied.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

.

[Captain Canada]

Surely you choose tactics to suit the players you do have not the ones you wish you did?

 

As DoF why wasn't Levein ripping up the recruitment policy and trying something new? What we've been doing clearly hasn't worked up to now and Neilson couldn't wait to get away.

 

It sounds like another huge turnaround of players is on the way, but I think they'll largely get it right this time.

[Drewboy]

If you were reviewing it professionally on presentation skills

Cathro

Started well repeating his mantra "It will work"a la mays strong and stable.Allowed himself to be distracted by a minor heckle and voice and confidence faltered.

Little humour and over reliance on aides .some of which became boring and lost audience attention.

Needs coaching....5/10

Macphee

Relaxed and engaging style..knew his audience and played to his strengths

Was very much the main event to cathros support act and one wonders if this was appropriate given their relative hierarchical positions

8/10. Good effort harnessing natural empathetic skills

E

Not once was I bored or lost interest and IC used the same aides less times than AM!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ivan Drago]

Surely you choose tactics to suit the players you do have not the ones you wish you did?

 

As DoF why wasn't Levein ripping up the recruitment policy and trying something new? What we've been doing clearly hasn't worked up to now and Neilson couldn't wait to get away.

 

It sounds like another huge turnaround of players is on the way, but I think they'll largely get it right this time.

Thing is though, a lot of the guys brought in had good cv's for a team like hearts. Who are they going to bring in that's better than them?

[Nookie Bear]

Not once was I bored or lost interest and IC used the same aides less times than AM!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I always enjoy listening to qualified coaches talking about their business, whether it's Sir Alex or Cathro.

 

Did you get a sense that there was anything truly innovative about what he was saying?

[Knicksen]

Excellent post. Can we get this as a sticky or an automatic reply to 90% of the threads that get posted on JKB these days.

Completely agree.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Having just re-read some of my posts last night I would like to publically apologise to Jambo in Hamilton.

 

I was way out of line and over the top and am genuinely appalled at some of the posts I made.

 

 

Anyway, I didn't come on here this afternoon to have a discussion with your good self. I came on to say 'sorry' for some of my over the top comments to another poster.

 

I have done that and hope he reads it.

 

 

Thanks for apologising Morgan - appreciate that, and apology accepted

[deejtee]

Don't take the bit about braincells personally. It was not meant against you per se.

 

Cathro has one more transfer window and a pre-season then we'll see in October how it's going. In baseball parlance, Cathro has had one strike. His recruitment this summer is the second ball, and the first round of matches up to his anniversary in the job is potentially his third strike..If we are still an utter mess in October then I won't be supporting him any longer. If there are not at least signs of improvement in the first few games of next season, I'll be at least keeping quiet about his prospects.

 

I think I understand the way that Cathro wants Hearts to play. I'm comfortable with it, but he needs to actually get the team doing it. He hasn't so far. He acknowledges it, I do too and so does everyone. Will it really make any difference to us if we have a poor season in 2017/18? Christ we've still got another 5-6 years until we are due another cup win! 

Your posts would be much better without any of these type of comments. Then we are more on the same song sheet although I disagree that the current model and management are ever likely to beat Celtic to the title. Nothing wrong with trying something different or having hope for great things so long as the people in charge are not too stubborn to change things if they aren't working. Our model has stalled badly so it needs to get going again next season for the fans' sake and for the careers of CL, IC and AM. I hope it does otherwise I may yet be playing some winter golf at the turn of the year.

[Drewboy]

I always enjoy listening to qualified coaches talking about their business, whether it's Sir Alex or Cathro.

 

Did you get a sense that there was anything truly innovative about what he was saying?

No, not innovative. IC has never proclaimed to be an innovator. The system he believes in is simple but requires discipline. It also requires players to be mobile, want the ball and when they have the ball they need to be brave.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nookie Bear]

No, not innovative. IC has never proclaimed to be an innovator. The system he believes in is simple but requires discipline. It also requires players to be mobile, want the ball and when they have the ball they need to be brave.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, that's fair enough.

 

Although I think a fair few fans on here believe he is able to reinvent the wheel.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Very interesting piece on Juve on the BBC today.

Interesting that 3 4 3 is their way of playing. They of course have fantastic players, we don't. Goes back to what Spellczech said, you maybe have to try or be prepared for mediocrity before greatness. The price is sub mediocrity when it goes wrong or even beginning that quest for the holy grail.

 

However, also in the article. Conte is quoted.

 

If you sit in a 100 Euro restaurant, and you have only 10 Euro , then you can not begin to think of eating.

 

Using that analogy, we need the cash to buy the best players we can.

 

Maybe we know there are such players coming. If not, he is out on his arse before 2017 ends

[bauld willie]

I agree. I believe Hearts are trying to do the right things. It is indisputable that we are not doing everything successfully at the moment though. However, only fools throw the baby out with the bathwater...

 

Undoubtedly we have some problems at the moment, but I cannot accept that ALL of the following are problems:

 

- The Club's strategy

- The Director of Football's capabilities

- The Head Coach's capabilities

- The Assistant Head Coach's capabilities

- The recruitment policy

- The recruitment practice

- The tactics of the Head Coach

- The motivation of the outfield players

- The application of the outfield players

- The goalkeeping coach's capabilities

- The goalkeeper's ability

 

 

And I just don't believe that employing Tommy Wright would fix any of the above that are problems...If that is all people have got to offer then I say "Go away and come back to me when you have a better plan?"

You can colour it as much as you like, but you need to remember the wider picture and more importantly the facts.

 

Hearts along with all other Scottish clubs have managed quite comfortably for over 140 years without the need for any DOF or trainee managers.

 

Eliminating the DOF role would also allow significant funds to be freed up and for us to employ at least 1 more "quality" player. That could be the difference between winning a trophy or not.

 

Celtic seem to manage quite happily without the over complicated setup you seem to intent on protecting. Aberdeen have worked wonders without it. Money is always tight at StJ, so like other clubs, Tommy Wright seems to mangage several roles quite successfully.

 

Or existing setup exists for one purpose, the continued employment of Levein alone. It is now proving detrimental to the success of Hearts.

[Mikey1874]

26 pages

 

And most people that were there will be oblivious of this thread

 

Take it it's mostly been negative comments from people who weren't there

[smiler]

Thanks for apologising Morgan - appreciate that, and apology accepted

Very dignified of you mate. Hopefully some of the others that acted like dicks towards you will apologise as well.

[JamboAl]

Actually, I wouldn't because my judgement is based on the strength of opponent too. Locke, for example, got a mulligan for most of the admin season but when you lose a semi final against 9 men and whinge like a bitch about squad size, you deserve to get emptied.

The opposition is only as strong as you allow it to be.  We must concentrate on ourselves always seeking improvement and sometimes, like now, we may have to take one step backwards to take two forwards.

 

Whatever you say I would not take a 53 year old manager who has never been tested under pressure.  I'd prefer to stick with what we have for the short term at least, and try to break the mould of picking has beens when you shake the tree and not really geting anywhere.  If it does not look as if it is working after a reasonable trial, let's review where we're at and consider what needs to be tweaked, altered or totally discarded.  If it is successful maybe Scotland as a whole, including the national team, could learn something.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Very interesting piece on Juve on the BBC today.

Interesting that 3 4 3 is their way of playing. They of course have fantastic players, we don't. Goes back to what Spellczech said, you maybe have to try or be prepared for mediocrity before greatness. The price is sub mediocrity when it goes wrong or even beginning that quest for the holy grail.

 

However, also in the article. Conte is quoted.

 

If you sit in a 100 Euro restaurant, and you have only 10 Euro , then you can not begin to think of eating.

 

Using that analogy, we need the cash to buy the best players we can.

 

Maybe we know there are such players coming. If not, he is out on his arse before 2017 ends

Ah, the great Conte a passionate and genuine guy. Went to Chelsea and played how he wanted to play. It wasn't quite working so he changes formation to suit his players.

 

From an interview this season - "I'm a tailor, I have to find the perfect fit for my squad."

 

Compare that to "I won't change even if it

would benefit me and my team."