Meet the Management event

[Nookie Bear]

If that's what you taken from last night, then fair enough.

Is that not enough?

[Phil Dunphy]

Basically blaming the players for all our troubles. Digs at our left backs. (Rherras done fine with Robbie in charge)

 

Sorry it won't wash with me. Cathro needs to re-evaluate his football philosophies. He is as at fault as the players and they all just didn't magically become shite at the seasons time.

 

**** off

 

I've seen Rherras airswipe a ball out of play three times this season, you're at it.

[Glottis]

If that's what you taken from last night, then fair enough.

Its a bloody fair point though.

 

They recognise how bad Tzoilis was but he's still played nearly every game since.

[Bazzas right boot]

Is that not enough?

Depends on you capacity to take in information, evaluate it and process it.

 

You'd need to tell me.

 

Personally I'd look to get a little more from it, each to Thier own.

[Nookie Bear]

Depends on you capacity to take in information, evaluate it and process it.

 

You'd need to tell me.

 

Personally I'd look to get a little more from it, each to Thier own.

I'll tell you: you let a player get away with that, they will do it again and other players will follow.

 

It just exemplifies why Cathro is not a manager, he is a coach.

[Haken]

Its a bloody fair point though.

They recognise how bad Tzoilis was but he's still played nearly every game since.

Contractual obligation?

[Nookie Bear]

Contractual obligation?

Jeez...bring back Romanov !

[Bazzas right boot]

I'll tell you: you let a player get away with that, they will do it again and other players will follow.

 

It just exemplifies why Cathro is not a manager, he is a coach.

Very simplistic.

[Nookie Bear]

Very simplistic.

Dealing with players generally is.

[Rudy T]

I'll tell you: you let a player get away with that, they will do it again and other players will follow.

 

It just exemplifies why Cathro is not a manager, he is a coach.

What was worse he had to take the same player off at half time in both legs. He wasn't good enough at home what feckin chance was there he would be better away. In both legs 2 up front caused problems but it took until it was too late at Easter Road to change it.

[Haken]

Jeez...bring back Romanov !

I'm just guessing. I'm imagining a situation whereby Tziolis agreed to come so long as he was guaranteed being displayed in the shop window. Hasn't really worked for either party.

[oi oi]

Only Jon daly spoke (apart from Cathro and macphee) and he said how there are a good bunch of young players coming through... some who are 15 or 16 playing for the under 20s already so will be a step ahead of others at a similar age in terms of their development.

And that they have sent a few out on loan who are not quite ready for 1st team

Any youth coach at any club would say exactly the same. It's not as if he's going to come out and slate them at that age.

[the big show]

If that's what you taken from last night, then fair enough.

Tosh what do you expect people to take from it ? Cathro is contradicting himself  ...  in other words he is lying there like a 10 by 10 axe minster and guys like yourself are sucking up like a top of range Dyson  ..  deary deary me ... 

[Nookie Bear]

What was worse he had to take the same player off at half time in both legs. He wasn't good enough at home what feckin chance was there he would be better away. In both legs 2 up front caused problems but it took until it was too late at Easter Road to change it.

And then promised us we would never see even 5 minutes like that ever again, which we promptly did in our very next match.

 

I'm sorry, but all I see is a coach, never a manager.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Any youth coach at any club would say exactly the same. It's not as if he's going to come out and slate them at that age.

Exactly.

 

Meaningless waffle.

[Francis Albert]

We have still done embarrassing things. The plane and the attack on Lennon is embarrassing.

 

Just because it's not as bad as others have done, doesn't make it ok. His points are still valid.

 

We have been underperforming, hence us trying something different.

 

We should be comfortably above partick and saints, but remember a look back over the last 5 years would indicate that as above we have underperformed and certainly we have no right to be better than teams like these, we need to earn it again, hence the change of approach.

 

Yip, all we can do is hope!

We?

 

The attack on Lennon was one individual. The plane was organised by a handful of individuals.

 

And although we have underperformed historically we have almost always been better than St. Johnstone and Partick Thistle. We don't have a right to be better but we have a reasonable expectation to be so. If we don't then I repeat - lack of ambition (and acceptance of mediocrity and worse that goes with that lack) is what I find depressing. 

 

Along with the hair shirt claim that we as a support are uniquely embarrassing.

[hibsarepants]

Oh boy is this thread a depressing read. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that there are some Hearts fans who do not deserve to follow a good team. Some of our support is just toxic... Over the years I've wondered why it always seemed to be Hearts fans who did embarrassing stuff like throwing bananas at Mark Walters, booing dead Popes, Physically attacking an opposition manager in our own stadium; paying for planes to fly over Tynecastle. All excruciating stuff that has happened during my time as an Hearts fan...

 

People agitated for Robbie to leave and got their wish. He got fed up and left at first opportunity that came his way, trying to tell himself that it was the right move at the right time...Well it was the right time as far as he was concerned. Not so good for us, but I don't blame him...

 

We then got a new young, ambitious Head Coach. Everyone got on board and the support was finally united - for all of 1 game.

 

Now all I see is people directing their ire towards the new coach. They cannot look past the responsibility lying with the Head Coach and want his head. Why? We can all see that the players are clearly not doing what the manager is saying he wants them to do - it couldn't be more obvious. Why? To go back to being what we've always been - underachievers with a reputation for fielding big teams of hoofballers. Let's get a big physical number 9! Let's get Tommy fecking Wright! Let's get 1970s and 80s tactics and style of manager because this new fangled style of football where you play the ball on the deck hasn't bedded immediately...

 

Are Hearts a big club? No we are not!

 

People have expectations of winning the majority of games yet our silverware haul is 3 cups in 50+ years. The 2 do not marry up. We are only a big club in Edinburgh ie not even in Scottish terms! People say that Cathro is rubbish because football is a results game. Well in that case Hearts are rubbish! Our silverware record for a big club in this small pond is embarrassing - Newcastle and Spurs fans should laugh at us...

 

Changing a style of football is not easy. I know nothing about being a professional footballer. For years I've sat watching players in warm up "controlling" a ball by knocking it 3 yards to their left of right. It's not what I regard as close control, nor instant control...I've come to the conclusion that the sort of control you see from Messi in a game is not the sort that lesser players can do, so they are perhaps coached to direct/deflect the ball rather than cushion it and kill it's momentum? Thinking about it Messi doesn't kill the momentum of the ball either, he is just not 3 yards behind the ball after his first touch! However, there is no reason why, with the correct personnel Hearts cannot develop a possession game. Tynecastle is a small pitch but I've watched the OF, particularly Celtic, knocking the ball left to right and back along our 18 yard line whilst we stood off them or chased shadows. That is how better players tire out fit, but not so good players. It is not exclusive to Barcelona. It is just professional football as far as I can see. 

 

Why have we only had 5 good strikers in the last 20 years? Macphee has identified it as per above. Precisely because there is a large element of our support who just want to watch professionals play kids football. They want blood and thunder - "Get the ball up the effing park!"  then "FFS get it in the box Hertz". Unsophisticated football minds who would not dream of attending a tactical Q&A session with the manager but will sit here on a thread debating the output as if their opinion counts for more than the Club's management's. They see what Levein and Cathro and Macphee cannot! Sorry,  but that's balls. Watching football doesn't make someone an expert on football. I've been doing it for 40 years but I would not dream of telling 30-year old Ian Cathro how to do his job! All I can do is try to interpret what he is trying to do.

 

I will nail my colours to the mast. Being an Hearts supporter is the weirdest thing - we had terrible teams in the 70s and won nothing, We had good teams in the 80s and won nothing. The reason the OF won stuff is that they control games. Yes, they can get a bit of help sometimes from officials, but OUR style of football ALWAYS gave the officials the opportunity to gift them late penalties etc. Our style of football DID NOT WORK for us.  We simply have to move on, evolve on the park. Off the park, the Hearts fans need to give the management a chance, give the players support even when they mess up. What I perceive Cathro to be trying to do is not easy, and he's made mistakes but calling him an "experiment" and saying he has failed is frankly stupid. Currently his methods are not working, but let's give the guy a chance to turn it round. I have no problem with us training coaches on the job, we've got nothing to lose. We are only glorious in our own dreams. If they get it right then we could get something special, If not, then we can all go back to employing Tommy Wrights and get enthused about him signing tryers like Neil Macfarlane, Jamie MacAllister, John Millar etc and having motivated teams who come unstuck 99% of the time when it matters...Let's not be in such a hurry to revert to the same old  "nearly men" ways...

Like others I commend this thoughtful exposition of where we are and what we do with our current management team. You may well be right but an alternative view expressed to me personally by someone who was there last night is that Cathro is like someone who has just got a business degree and after some work experience is now CEO of a complex customer focussed business. In short he is out his depth and we are paying for his learning curve. Yes he might make it with an improved more balanced squad but the danger is he doesn't and come Oct we are stuck well and truly in the bottom 6. If we are to sell season tickets and fill a new stand perhaps we should put an end to this experiment which has not worked and is a long shot to come good.  Like everyone else I hope and pray it does.

[Zibi]

So now you're hounding a poster for hounding a poster?

Wind your neck in, the boy's apologised and the universe doesn't care if you believe him or not.

I take it you haven't been reading Kickback much today?

[socrates82]

We?

 

The attack on Lennon was one individual. The plane was organised by a handful of individuals.

 

And although we have underperformed historically we have almost always been better than St. Johnstone and Partick Thistle. We don't have a right to be better but we have a reasonable expectation to be so. If we don't then I repeat - lack of ambition (and acceptance of mediocrity and worse that goes with that lack) is what I find depressing. 

 

Along with the hair shirt claim that we as a support are uniquely embarrassing.

 

We have often finished below sides worse than the current St Johnstone team. Historically we haven't underperformed. We're the 3rd biggest team historically with the third best league record. Aberdeen had a golden few years that put them up at our level but we've been more consistent over our history.

[deejtee]

The odd person who has changed their mind after the presentation must be fun come the election changing the intended direction of their vote after every party political broadcast! I tend to be influenced by the performance of the current party but by in large trust Cathro more than the average politician....although that is a back handed compliment!

[socrates82]

The odd person who has changed their mind after the presentation must be fun come the election changing the intended direction of their vote after every party political broadcast! I tend to be influenced by the performance of the current party but by in large trust Cathro more than the average politician....although that is a back handed compliment!

 

Perhaps they appreciated how open he was? It wasn't a broadcast but an open Q & A. Maybe the critics on here could have manned up and gone along - it was the prefect opportunity to get answers to their questions. Much safer to lob insults online or boo at games though...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Perhaps they appreciated how open he was? It wasn't a broadcast but an open Q & A. Maybe the critics on here could have manned up and gone along - it was the prefect opportunity to get answers to their questions. Much safer to lob insults online or boo at games though...

Criticism of poor performance, which Cathro admits to, isn't an insult.

[socrates82]

Criticism of poor performance, which Cathro admits to, isn't an insult.

 

Didn't say it was.

[jamboinglasgow]

Perhaps they appreciated how open he was? It wasn't a broadcast but an open Q & A. Maybe the critics on here could have manned up and gone along - it was the prefect opportunity to get answers to their questions. Much safer to lob insults online or boo at games though...

 

Exactly. What seems to be the same reaction coming from people who were there is that they faced tough questions and were honest and gave intelligent answers. That people were a bit more optimistic coming out of it but also say that words need to be backed up by actions. But those who want Cathro gone on here are falling over themselves desperately trying to shoot down anyone who says slight more positive about the night.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Cathro may well be out of his depth, rookies generally are. But he has a mentor. Like it or most likely not this is the chosen model

To be honest I think his mentor wrote the season off probably mid March. We are not giving a shit from top to bottom.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

He wouldn't have got the time in today's modern football regardless of his previous record. Mourinho and Chelsea immediately spring to mind. So the comparison is fair with regard to today.

And yet you ignored the point that Sir Alex improved things immensely in his first two seasons, as I pointed out. Your comparison was duff. The rumblings against him started in 88/89 as the team went backwards from 2nd spot.

 

Your lack of knowledge is palpable.

[amadjambo]

Really interesting discussion on Radio 5 Live tonight with Steve McLaren. Not about Hearts (obviously) but about overseas coaches, and the need for our coaches to go abroad and learn. Well worth a listen, particularly when he talks about trying to implement different styles when he came back to the UK.

[John Findlay]

And yet you ignored the point that Sir Alex improved things immensely in his first two seasons, as I pointed out. Your comparison was duff. The rumblings against him started in 88/89 as the team went backwards from 2nd spot.

 

Your lack of knowledge is palpable.

Still using your MO. You would have sacked him.

[deejtee]

Perhaps they appreciated how open he was? It wasn't a broadcast but an open Q & A. Maybe the critics on here could have manned up and gone along - it was the prefect opportunity to get answers to their questions. Much safer to lob insults online or boo at games though...

It was never intended as a meeting to grill them but as a  money raising thing. I never considered travelling to it for an instant. The analogy I used earlier is also valid. Any surgeon could talk about treatments and people would be impressed. Before I used their services I would prefer to see their success and mortality rates. Also personally I haven't been lobbing insults while I could not say that about some on here. I have had the odd boo over the years at full time and have never debated whether it is a safe option as much as the opposite of cheering and clapping when that has been deserved. I know to some on here that means I am not a true fan

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Exactly. What seems to be the same reaction coming from people who were there is that they faced tough questions and were honest and gave intelligent answers. That people were a bit more optimistic coming out of it but also say that words need to be backed up by actions. But those who want Cathro gone on here are falling over themselves desperately trying to shoot down anyone who says slight more positive about the night.

Perhaps it's because people see it as a way of buying time that he doesn't deserve but will get anyway, simply because too many people are invested in him.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Still using your MO. You would have sacked him.

So you think judging someone over 3.5 years is the same as judging them over 6 months?

 

Never too old to learn to be taught a lesson.

[deejtee]

Exactly. What seems to be the same reaction coming from people who were there is that they faced tough questions and were honest and gave intelligent answers. That people were a bit more optimistic coming out of it but also say that words need to be backed up by actions. But those who want Cathro gone on here are falling over themselves desperately trying to shoot down anyone who says slight more positive about the night.

Perhaps some of this is brought on by Cathro's previous for empty rhetoric? It all still comes down to proof on the park next autumn. Very few people come across as confident but are either prepared or resigned to wait and see.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Perhaps some of this is brought on by Cathro's previous for empty rhetoric? It all still comes down to proof on the park next autumn. Very few people come across as confident but are either prepared or resigned to wait and see.

Quite. In addition, others like the person you've quoted are invested in this vision of Levein's and are therefore desperate to also prove that this vision works, despite the evidence showing no squad continuity or evidence of these principles of play.

[Fraggle1990]

Oh boy is this thread a depressing read. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that there are some Hearts fans who do not deserve to follow a good team. Some of our support is just toxic... Over the years I've wondered why it always seemed to be Hearts fans who did embarrassing stuff like throwing bananas at Mark Walters, booing dead Popes, Physically attacking an opposition manager in our own stadium; paying for planes to fly over Tynecastle. All excruciating stuff that has happened during my time as an Hearts fan...

 

People agitated for Robbie to leave and got their wish. He got fed up and left at first opportunity that came his way, trying to tell himself that it was the right move at the right time...Well it was the right time as far as he was concerned. Not so good for us, but I don't blame him...

 

We then got a new young, ambitious Head Coach. Everyone got on board and the support was finally united - for all of 1 game.

 

Now all I see is people directing their ire towards the new coach. They cannot look past the responsibility lying with the Head Coach and want his head. Why? We can all see that the players are clearly not doing what the manager is saying he wants them to do - it couldn't be more obvious. Why? To go back to being what we've always been - underachievers with a reputation for fielding big teams of hoofballers. Let's get a big physical number 9! Let's get Tommy fecking Wright! Let's get 1970s and 80s tactics and style of manager because this new fangled style of football where you play the ball on the deck hasn't bedded immediately...

 

Are Hearts a big club? No we are not!

 

People have expectations of winning the majority of games yet our silverware haul is 3 cups in 50+ years. The 2 do not marry up. We are only a big club in Edinburgh ie not even in Scottish terms! People say that Cathro is rubbish because football is a results game. Well in that case Hearts are rubbish! Our silverware record for a big club in this small pond is embarrassing - Newcastle and Spurs fans should laugh at us...

 

Changing a style of football is not easy. I know nothing about being a professional footballer. For years I've sat watching players in warm up "controlling" a ball by knocking it 3 yards to their left of right. It's not what I regard as close control, nor instant control...I've come to the conclusion that the sort of control you see from Messi in a game is not the sort that lesser players can do, so they are perhaps coached to direct/deflect the ball rather than cushion it and kill it's momentum? Thinking about it Messi doesn't kill the momentum of the ball either, he is just not 3 yards behind the ball after his first touch! However, there is no reason why, with the correct personnel Hearts cannot develop a possession game. Tynecastle is a small pitch but I've watched the OF, particularly Celtic, knocking the ball left to right and back along our 18 yard line whilst we stood off them or chased shadows. That is how better players tire out fit, but not so good players. It is not exclusive to Barcelona. It is just professional football as far as I can see. 

 

Why have we only had 5 good strikers in the last 20 years? Macphee has identified it as per above. Precisely because there is a large element of our support who just want to watch professionals play kids football. They want blood and thunder - "Get the ball up the effing park!"  then "FFS get it in the box Hertz". Unsophisticated football minds who would not dream of attending a tactical Q&A session with the manager but will sit here on a thread debating the output as if their opinion counts for more than the Club's management's. They see what Levein and Cathro and Macphee cannot! Sorry,  but that's balls. Watching football doesn't make someone an expert on football. I've been doing it for 40 years but I would not dream of telling 30-year old Ian Cathro how to do his job! All I can do is try to interpret what he is trying to do.

 

I will nail my colours to the mast. Being an Hearts supporter is the weirdest thing - we had terrible teams in the 70s and won nothing, We had good teams in the 80s and won nothing. The reason the OF won stuff is that they control games. Yes, they can get a bit of help sometimes from officials, but OUR style of football ALWAYS gave the officials the opportunity to gift them late penalties etc. Our style of football DID NOT WORK for us.  We simply have to move on, evolve on the park. Off the park, the Hearts fans need to give the management a chance, give the players support even when they mess up. What I perceive Cathro to be trying to do is not easy, and he's made mistakes but calling him an "experiment" and saying he has failed is frankly stupid. Currently his methods are not working, but let's give the guy a chance to turn it round. I have no problem with us training coaches on the job, we've got nothing to lose. We are only glorious in our own dreams. If they get it right then we could get something special, If not, then we can all go back to employing Tommy Wrights and get enthused about him signing tryers like Neil Macfarlane, Jamie MacAllister, John Millar etc and having motivated teams who come unstuck 99% of the time when it matters...Let's not be in such a hurry to revert to the same old  "nearly men" ways...

Great post.

 

Too many folk on here blinded by rage and wanting to sack a manager everytime hibs beat us.

[deejtee]

Great post.

 

Too many folk on here blinded by rage and wanting to sack a manager everytime hibs beat us.

Only one of Cathro's defeats was to Hibs, but it was a cracker. I was blinded for days despite leaving with half an hour to go.Had to leave the car in Edinburgh and take the train home

[kimosavi]

Someone has been brain washed

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Great post.

 

Too many folk on here blinded by rage and wanting to sack a manager everytime hibs beat us.

Or perhaps you're the one who's blinded?

Desperately wanting Cathro to be the messiah (laugh) that you refuse to accept reality.

[jamboinglasgow]

Quite. In addition, others like the person you've quoted are invested in this vision of Levein's and are therefore desperate to also prove that this vision works, despite the evidence showing no squad continuity or evidence of these principles of play.

 

Dont make wrong assumptions about me. Thanks

 

Also a bit hypercritical to claim someone is too determined their point of view is right that they ignore anything that says otherwise.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Dont make wrong assumptions about me. Thanks

So you don't buy into the coaching pyramid?

[jamboinglasgow]

So you don't buy into the coaching pyramid?

 

I do buy into the idea of it, but I think it has been dissappointing at the moment how its gone.

[EH11]

Quite. In addition, others like the person you've quoted are invested in this vision of Levein's and are therefore desperate to also prove that this vision works, despite the evidence showing no squad continuity or evidence of these principles of play.

 

Does 'desperate to also prove that the vision works' mean desperate for Hearts to be successful?  If it does, then I'm unashamedly with that person too!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Does 'desperate to also prove that the vision works' mean desperate for Hearts to be successful? If it does, then I'm unashamedly with that person too!

Everyone is desperate for Hearts to be successful, which is why those saying about things not working are saying it! All we can hope for now is some miraculous turnaround, which we will happily accept and take any abuse that comes with it. Sadly, I don't expect that to happen.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I do buy into the idea of it, but I think it has been dissappointing at the moment how its gone.

Well, my assumption wasn't wrong then but maybe stated too strongly.

[jamboinglasgow]

Well, my assumption wasn't wrong then but maybe stated too strongly.

 

Considering itself something I said Hearts should do before Levein was DoF, I think you are wrong.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Considering itself something I said Hearts should do before Levein was DoF, I think you are wrong.

Fair play. I stand corrected.

[Spellczech]

I do buy into the idea of it, but I think it has been dissappointing at the moment how its gone.

I agree. I believe Hearts are trying to do the right things. It is indisputable that we are not doing everything successfully at the moment though. However, only fools throw the baby out with the bathwater...

 

Undoubtedly we have some problems at the moment, but I cannot accept that ALL of the following are problems:

 

- The Club's strategy

- The Director of Football's capabilities

- The Head Coach's capabilities

- The Assistant Head Coach's capabilities

- The recruitment policy

- The recruitment practice

- The tactics of the Head Coach

- The motivation of the outfield players

- The application of the outfield players

- The goalkeeping coach's capabilities

- The goalkeeper's ability

 

 

And I just don't believe that employing Tommy Wright would fix any of the above that are problems...If that is all people have got to offer then I say "Go away and come back to me when you have a better plan?"

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I agree. I believe Hearts are trying to do the right things. It is indisputable that we are not doing it everything successfully at the moment though. However, only fools throw the baby out with the bathwater...

 

Undoubtedly we have some problems at the moment, but I cannot accept that ALL of the following are problems:

 

- The Club's strategy

- The Director of Football's capabilities

- The Head Coach's capabilities

- The Assistant Head Coach's capabilities

- The recruitment policy

- The recruitment practice

- The tactics of the Head Coach

- The motivation of the outfield players

- The application of the outfield players

- The goalkeeping coach's capabilities

- The goalkeeper's ability

 

 

And I just don't believe that employing Tommy Wright would fix any of the above that are problems...If that is all people have got to offer then I say "Go away and come back to me when you have a better plan?"

You don't believe in Tommy Wright which is fair enough. Likewise, all people can offer us to defend Cathro is faith. You can choose what to believe. As I said to Mr Theories, I'll continue to look at evidence.

[Spellczech]

You don't believe in Tommy Wright which is fair enough. Likewise, all people can offer us to defend Cathro is faith. You can choose what to believe. As I said to Mr Theories, I'll continue to look at evidence.

Who was the last Hearts manager you DID support? Just curious...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Who was the last Hearts manager you DID support? Just curious...

I support all Hearts managers. Shite question.