General Election

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Statistics, damned statistics.....

 

Tories get 42% of the vote and win 218 seats (ratio of 0.1927 per seat)

 

Labour get 40% of the vote and win 262 seats (ratio of 0.1527 per seat)

 

So much for one vote, one value.

May's own fault. There are new boundaries for 2020 but they haven't been enacted yet.

[Ulysses]

[Ulysses]

Read elsewhere tonight:

 

Looks like the UK will be represented in the Brexit talks by the Conservative and Unionist Negotiating Team.

 

I do hope they can come up with a handy acronym.

 

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just anti gay and anti abortion then. Phew. Great lads.

Like I said they are many things I don't agree with.

But are they terrorists?

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

Aye they are. Lots of them were either members of terrorist organisations or had deep connections with them.

No they aren't. Some may have had connections but that isn't a prerequisite for being a member of the party.

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

I've just been to my daughter's awards at school and the number of bright kids was a joy.

 

I've also had cancer and the surgeon at Western General was a fantastic human being and the staff superb.

 

Really hack's me off when Unionists bash on about our education and SNHS. It doesn't add up as being poor or bad. Try England or go and live elsewhere.

I'd rather stay in my homeland and see improvements there.

Our education system isn't good at the moment

I'm pleased for your daughter and her pals though.

 

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[269miles]

Statistics, damned statistics.....

 

Tories get 42% of the vote and win 218 seats (ratio of 0.1927 per seat)

 

Labour get 40% of the vote and win 262 seats (ratio of 0.1527 per seat)

 

So much for one vote, one value. 

So let the Tories push for PR.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I'm bald and SNP won in Scotland. Unionists lost get over it!

I'm bald too and way over the SNP winning in Scotland.

Well done.

 

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[Cruyff Turn]

Like I said they are many things I don't agree with.

But are they terrorists?

 

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They are to what Sinn Fein are to the other lot.

 

So don't try and water them down to be anything other than that.

 

Not Terrorists no but they shouldn't be anywhere near mainstream politics outside of Ulster.

[Unknown user]

Statistics, damned statistics.....

 

Tories get 42% of the vote and win 218 seats (ratio of 0.1927 per seat)

 

Labour get 40% of the vote and win 262 seats (ratio of 0.1527 per seat)

 

So much for one vote, one value.

Might want to look at your figures again there chief

[269miles]

They are to what Sinn Fein are to the other lot.

 

So don't try and water them down to be anything other than that.

 

Not Terrorists no but they shouldn't be anywhere near mainstream politics outside of Ulster.

Interesting in that Jonathan Powell and Alisdair Campbell have had a real go at May for her partnership/coalition with this lot. 

 

In their words - absolutely wrong and undermining the role of the UK govt in NI.

 

But before they had even even appeared on our screens BBC commentators said they had already been doing business with them. 

 

So now the country is going to be held hostage by a bunch of  the most bigoted, biased, intolerant people.  They eclipse even UKIP in  their stupidity and insularity. Happy days ahead. 

[John Gentleman]

Might want to look at your figures again there chief

Doh! Dozey first post of the morning:

 

Tories 318 (0.1321)

Labour 262 (0.1527)

 

That's actually quite close to voter parity. If the 30% (or so) who didn't vote actually did, it could even be a lot closer. I find it baffling that nearly a third of eligible people choose not to exercise their democratic right.

 

So what will the proposed boundary changes achieve? Just a sensible re-distribution based on demographics, or some groups with a gerrymander agenda?

[heartsfc_fan]

.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

They are to what Sinn Fein are to the other lot.

 

So don't try and water them down to be anything other than that.

 

Not Terrorists no but they shouldn't be anywhere near mainstream politics outside of Ulster.

Equating the DUP and Sinn Fein shows your own ignorance but that's ok.

 

Maybe you should look at why they are getting the support to get 10 MPs in the first place because clothes peg voting is quite prevalent.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Doh! Dozey first post of the morning:

 

Tories 318 (0.1321)

Labour 262 (0.1527)

 

That's actually quite close to voter parity. If the 30% (or so) who didn't vote actually did, it could even be a lot closer. I find it baffling that nearly a third of eligible people choose not to exercise their democratic right.

 

So what will the proposed boundary changes achieve? Just a sensible re-distribution based on demographics, or some groups with a gerrymander agenda?

A reduction in the number of seats to 600 and an equalisation of constituency size.

[John Gentleman]

A reduction in the number of seats to 600 and an equalisation of constituency size.

Sounds sensible, but you know/I know re-distribution happens every 3.5 years in Oz, so we're accustomed to it.

 

I've experienced 4 electorate changes in 14 years just by staying in the same place!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Sounds sensible, but you know/I know re-distribution happens every 3.5 years in Oz, so we're accustomed to it.

 

I've experienced 4 electorate changes in 14 years just by staying in the same place!

True. Mind you, my seats only changed when I moved a distance. I was Chisholm and now Holt. The latter's boundaries haven't changed despite having the fastest housing growth in Oz.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

Gay marriage and abortion are devolved issues to NI. The idea that the DUPpers would put repeal of gay marriage and repeal of the 67 abortion act on their wishlist is laughable.

The seethe is fantastic though. How dare NI MPs hold the balance of power? Well, GIRUY! It's about time NI wasn't an afterthought. And you can put the blame on Blair for strangling the Ulster Unionists, allowing the DUP to take their votes.

All this is true, but there have been attempts to gain a liberalisation of these laws, particularly to allow abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormality. This is the distressing scenario in which a woman is forced to carry to full term a foetus that has no chance of survival outside the womb.

 

The DUP as a bloc voted against attempts to change the law. (As did other NI representatives given a free vote by their parties in the Assembly.)

 

This is my long winded way of saying the new situation makes it more unlikely that a national government would try to move NI away from a situation where some UK citizens enjoy a lesser standard of justice and human rights than others.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

All this is true, but there have been attempts to gain a liberalisation of these laws, particularly to allow abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormality. This is the distressing scenario in which a woman is forced to carry to full term a foetus that has no chance of survival outside the womb.

 

The DUP as a bloc voted against attempts to change the law. (As did other NI representatives given a free vote by their parties in the Assembly.)

 

This is my long winded way of saying the new situation makes it more unlikely that a national government would try to move NI away from a situation where some UK citizens enjoy a lesser standard of justice and human rights than others.

 

Personally, I don't think a national government should be trying to do that in any case unless something like abortion was a human right and enshrined in human rights laws. It isn't. Neither is gay marriage.

 

In addition, fatal foetal abnormality is horrible but drawing up legislation to cover it is pretty hard. Similarly with cases of rape.

[Brighton Jambo]

Debt? It's trebled under this government.

Radical thinking? Maybe a change?

Nope, just continue.

Ok, fair enough.

I was trying to start a genuine debate about what we could do to ensure a sustainable NHS and education system that is affordable. Your response is simply to change government and throw yet more money at the problem. If debt tripled under this government what would the debt level do if all of the current labour policies and promises were implemented?! More and more money is not a long term viable, sustainable strategy. I don't know what is but someone needs to work it out.

[jack D and coke]

You clearly believe May has some credibility left. Why?

He doesn't he has nothing to add any of these threads he just trolls the life out of them looking for bites. I've no idea how's he's allowed to continually post on them I've been banned from threads for much mess. A balloon.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Do you know the difference between debt and deficit? They're 2.completely different things. I'm no Tory but they've reduced the annual deficit by 2/3. That means the debt continues to grow, albeit at a slower speed. Their aim in 2010 was to eliminate the debt in 1 parliament, which was somewhat ambitious and of course, they haven't achieved it.

 

Political parties' plans to spend this that and the other are fine, but unless you increase tax receipts, you will just increase the deficit and get even deeper in debt. How hard can it be to understand?

 

And I usually vote Labour! (But not Under Corbyn)

It was the deficit they were dreaming about wiping out, the debt will never be wiped out mainly due to the establishment profiting from it.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Tbh, while I would be happy to see the end of May I don't get the 'she should resign' reaction to either her or Sturgeon/SNP.

 

Neither got the amount of seats they'd hoped for but the Tories did 'win' the election, they still won far more seats than anyone else and should be forming the government. Similarly the SNP 'won' in Scotland.

 

Not sure how winning more seats than any other party can ever be considered or a rejection of that parties leader, let alone the claims that Corbyn 'won'. Yes, Labour did a lot better than people originally expected but were still looking at five years of Tory rule and policy. How is that a 'win'?

[Boris]

The  reason to abolish it is very, very simple.

 

We voted to be part of the UK. we should then take our place in it , alongside everyone else. We deserve , nor require any special treatment.

 

As long as the parliament stands, independence will dominate our politics. As you say in order to progress it needs to be taken of the table. I can't see any other way to do this other  than hold a second referendum, but with two consequences. No half way house.

So you would also get rid of the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies as well then?

 

When the parliament was established it was supposed to put the independence genie back in the bottle. And it did, for a while. Then the nationalists got their act together et voila. But independence as a debating point is a relatively new thing.

 

SNP get a majority so they see that as the green light and results in 2014 referendum.

 

And that would have been that, were it not for Brexit. Independence as a dominant theme is not because of the parliament but due to te politics. Blaming the parliament for it is frankly ridiculous. The parliament sat for over ten years before independence was mentioned, yet you say that the parliament allows independence to dominate.

 

It's not the parliament, but the politicians that set the agenda. Currently, at the parliament, that is the SNP. After the next Holyrood elections, wHo knows?

[Victorian]

So you would also get rid of the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies as well then?

 

When the parliament was established it was supposed to put the independence genie back in the bottle. And it did, for a while. Then the nationalists got their act together et voila. But independence as a debating point is a relatively new thing.

 

SNP get a majority so they see that as the green light and results in 2014 referendum.

 

And that would have been that, were it not for Brexit. Independence as a dominant theme is not because of the parliament but due to te politics. Blaming the parliament for it is frankly ridiculous. The parliament sat for over ten years before independence was mentioned, yet you say that the parliament allows independence to dominate.

 

It's not the parliament, but the politicians that set the agenda. Currently, at the parliament, that is the SNP. After the next Holyrood elections, wHo knows?

Precicely. There now appears to be less support for independence and certainly a much more entrenched view against it. The SNP are inextricably tied to the issue of independence so it now stands to reason that the SNP's water table of support will recede. The PR voting system at Holyrood will ensure that Scottish governments for the forseeable future will return to a coalition basis. Independence will now disappear as the dominating and dividing issue and parties will have to return to the day job of running the country.

 

The devolved parliament and it's PR derived make-up will now return to being the guarantor of the union. It has never and will never be an aide to independence.

[Bazzas right boot]

I was trying to start a genuine debate about what we could do to ensure a sustainable NHS and education system that is affordable. Your response is simply to change government and throw yet more money at the problem. If debt tripled under this government what would the debt level do if all of the current labour policies and promises were implemented?! More and more money is not a long term viable, sustainable strategy. I don't know what is but someone needs to work it out.

 

Labour had a costed manifesto, the tories never costed a thing. Your points about the debt and economy seem to be your concern, yet you voted for a party that has trebled the debt and launched a uncosted manifesto.

The party also has no money for said services but can afford operations like war, renewal of trident and spending almost ?1b on doing up the parliament and the palaces.

 

In all honesty, I don't see were a debate can begin.

 

At the beginning you said your vote was a selfish one for you and your family, I suggested it was just for you and said my reasons.

 Giving your reasoning for voting  Tory as the economy/ debt isn't true ( imo) and I find any debate hard when you are clearly in conflict with your reasoning.

 

To answer your question, taxing the super wealthy and big business a little more, re nationalising the rail so that the money is recycled in the system, along with an alignment of prioritising such as above, throw in mp's expenses and maybe a little tightening of certain benefit's, for example NHS tourism and immigrant benefit's ( all put forward by David Cameron) would save more than enough money to ensure  things like security, police, NHS, education and social housing are funded over time.

 

 

To vote for a party that has trebled the debt and a uncosted manifesto under the reasoning that they are the economic sensible party , imo is baffling.

 

Of course anyone can vote for who they want for any reason, I have just not heard anyone who voted Tory give a logical reason.

 

Actually, a rangers supporting friend said he hated the SNP and that was his sole reason, this at least made sense in one respect.

 

Any way the Tories won, lets hope the continued destruction and privatisation of the public and social services doesn't affect you or your family.

[Bazzas right boot]

So you would also get rid of the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies as well then?

 

When the parliament was established it was supposed to put the independence genie back in the bottle. And it did, for a while. Then the nationalists got their act together et voila. But independence as a debating point is a relatively new thing.

 

SNP get a majority so they see that as the green light and results in 2014 referendum.

 

And that would have been that, were it not for Brexit. Independence as a dominant theme is not because of the parliament but due to te politics. Blaming the parliament for it is frankly ridiculous. The parliament sat for over ten years before independence was mentioned, yet you say that the parliament allows independence to dominate.

 

It's not the parliament, but the politicians that set the agenda. Currently, at the parliament, that is the SNP. After the next Holyrood elections, wHo knows?

 

 

Yes, unless we move to a federal system.

 

The cost of these puppet parliments must be very high. There is no need for them in a parliamentary sense, they just make people feel a bit better, for example we can pretend we are Scottish and govern ourselves.

 

The building, over 100 MSP's and the admin stuff must cost hundreds of millions/ year to the tax payer.

 

Of course, my agenda like the SNP's would be to push for independence, I think it could be achieved with putting all the cards n the table.

 

 

Unless we move to a federal system no area of Britain should have devolved powers. I see no benefit to it. Westminister has the power on major issues, the EU result shows this. NI and Scotland voted to remain, but they won't. The parliament is a joke with joke powers as it stands.

[The Real Maroonblood]

They are to what Sinn Fein are to the other lot.

So don't try and water them down to be anything other than that.

Not Terrorists no but they shouldn't be anywhere near mainstream politics outside of Ulster.

I know it won't happen but SF taking their seats would be lovely.

[Bazzas right boot]

Tbh, while I would be happy to see the end of May I don't get the 'she should resign' reaction to either her or Sturgeon/SNP.

 

Neither got the amount of seats they'd hoped for but the Tories did 'win' the election, they still won far more seats than anyone else and should be forming the government. Similarly the SNP 'won' in Scotland.

 

Not sure how winning more seats than any other party can ever be considered or a rejection of that parties leader, let alone the claims that Corbyn 'won'. Yes, Labour did a lot better than people originally expected but were still looking at five years of Tory rule and policy. How is that a 'win'?

 

 

I  tend to agree, she still won.

 

However, within her own party she has called a unnecessary election and went from a small majority to a hung parliment. She won't last long and/ or another elction will be called. With her inner circle she has failed by quite a bit.

 

She also looks ill, imo.

[The Mighty Thor]

The Provos are gone as well.

 

And anyone who genuinely thinks the DUP support terrorists is simply wrong.

Lol.

Scratch the surface and it's there. It's like a stick of Blackpool rock with these inbred cretins.

They were murdering each other over religion 20 years ago.

I'm quite sure the DUP will wilt under even mild media scrutiny when people really get to see what makes their members tick.

In fact we've only got 4 weeks to wait and we'll have the annual festival of religious tolerance on show for the whole wide world to see.

 

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[Bazzas right boot]

I know it won't happen but SF taking their seats would be lovely.

 

They won't they campaign stating they won't, one of  their main points.

[deesidejambo]

Precicely. There now appears to be less support for independence and certainly a much more entrenched view against it. The SNP are inextricably tied to the issue of independence so it now stands to reason that the SNP's water table of support will recede. The PR voting system at Holyrood will ensure that Scottish governments for the forseeable future will return to a coalition basis. Independence will now disappear as the dominating and dividing issue and parties will have to return to the day job of running the country.

 

The devolved parliament and it's PR derived make-up will now return to being the guarantor of the union. It has never and will never be an aide to independence.

Exactly this.

 

The SNP want Indy but also want to be part of UK Govt, both Westminster and devolved to Holyrood.    If they want Indy they can't have both.    They should campaign on a purely Independence UDI ticket at the next GE.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Lol.

Scratch the surface and it's there. It's like a stick of Blackpool rock with these inbred cretins.

They were murdering each other over religion 20 years ago.

I'm quite sure the DUP will wilt under even mild media scrutiny when people really get to see what makes their members tick.

In fact we've only got 4 weeks to wait and we'll have the annual festival of religious tolerance on show for the whole wide world to see.

 

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The DUP weren't murdering anyone. You can attack them for many things other than that but doing so just shows your own ignorance.

[Victorian]

Exactly this.

 

The SNP want Indy but also want to be part of UK Govt, both Westminster and devolved to Holyrood. If they want Indy they can't have both. They should campaign on a purely Independence UDI ticket at the next GE.

It has no legitimacy. The settled political course to enact independence is and will continue to be to campaign for a majority at Holyrood on a referendum manifesto, to vote through the bill at Holyrood to trigger a section 30 request to hold a referendum, to hold the referendum.

 

Only that course has full legitimacy. If Scotland wants independence it will get it. Most anti-referendum people seem to insist they would win any referendum anyway so it is a bit odd there's such a rabid resistence to having one. The legitimate process has already taken it's course but the referendum was denied. Another odd thing being how easily that undemocratic actions are accepted when it's a means to an end.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This should be required reading for those above who are slagging the DUP without a clue.

 

https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/06/10/can-you-all-just-calm-yourselves-down-a-bit-about-the-dup/

[Mikey1874]

Poem in The Guardian by Carol Ann Duffy

 

[Victorian]

There is a list of reasons why the arrangement with the DUP is dubious and unsustainable. Some or most of them can/will be lived with but there remains one reason why this arrangement should not be allowed to pass without ongoing pressure and scrutiny. The UK government position and duty as the neutral broker in the power sharing process has just been severely compromised beyond any possible explanation. It's grubby, sordid and an absolute afront to the needs of the Northern Irish people. Utterly irresponsible.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

There is a list of reasons why the arrangement with the DUP is dubious and unsustainable. Some or most of them can/will be lived with but there remains one reason why this arrangement should not be allowed to pass without ongoing pressure and scrutiny. The UK government position and duty as the neutral broker in the power sharing process has just been severely compromised beyond any possible explanation. It's grubby, sordid and an absolute afront to the needs of the Northern Irish people. Utterly irresponsible.

Given Corbyn and McDonnell's past, could you claim they were honest brokers by that argument, bearing in mind he would need DUP support too?

[Sarah O]

apart from that, is there anything else really all that bad about them?

Supporting the renewal of Trident.

[glynnlondon]

Given Corbyn and McDonnell's past, could you claim they were honest brokers by that argument, bearing in mind he would need DUP support too?

No chance the dup will go with corbyn and a rainbow alliance

[Victorian]

Given Corbyn and McDonnell's past, could you claim they were honest brokers by that argument, bearing in mind he would need DUP support too?

Agreed but that is historical in terms of their views and alleged alliegences. That should not necessarily prevent neutrality moving forward.

 

I'm talking about the present UK government destroying it's current day position as neutral broker by entering into a current arrangement with one side of the divide. Irresponsible doesn't even touch the sides.

 

Theresa May clearly thinks her own personal need to be PM is more important than the security of political progress of an entire country. It can't be explained as valid in any way.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Agreed but that is historical in terms of their views and alleged alliegences. That should not necessarily prevent neutrality moving forward.

 

I'm talking about the present UK government destroying it's current day position as neutral broker by entering into a current arrangement with one side of the divide. Irresponsible doesn't even touch the sides.

 

Theresa May clearly thinks her own personal need to be PM is more important than the security of political progress of an entire country. It can't be explained as valid in any way.

That's crap being put about to say that their votes almost shouldn't count. Sorry but all votes are equal. In addition, if being a dishonest broker means that public spending in NI increases, I'm sure most of the population will live with it. Confidence and supply is very different from a coalition.

[argyjambo]

May's own fault. There are new boundaries for 2020 but they haven't been enacted yet.[3/quote]

Wrong! Proposed boundary changes to ensure all seats were to be of equal size population wise, were knocked back as part of the deal when they were part of the coalition.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Wrong! Proposed boundary changes to ensure all seats were to be of equal size population wise, were knocked back as part of the deal when they were part of the coalition.

This is the subsequent review to that. The proposed boundaries were published in September 2016.

[JamboX2]

 

May's own fault. There are new boundaries for 2020 but they haven't been enacted yet.[3/quote]

Wrong! Proposed boundary changes to ensure all seats were to be of equal size population wise, were knocked back as part of the deal when they were part of the coalition.

 

Cameron pushed this through before he resigned post-coalition.

[Victorian]

That's crap being put about to say that their votes almost shouldn't count. Sorry but all votes are equal. In addition, if being a dishonest broker means that public spending in NI increases, I'm sure most of the population will live with it. Confidence and supply is very different from a coalition.

I'm fully on board with the concept that all votes count equal and a minority party should not be prevented from gaining a position of power and influence. But there are particular problems regarding the DUP and NI power sharing, as already stated.

 

On another note.. Theresa May herself discredited the idea of a minority party, specifically led from outside Westminster, holding a coalition / C&S position with the Labour Party. Now she's done precisely that. The hypocrisy of that is just marvelous.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Cameron pushed this through before he resigned post-coalition.

Indeed. The interesting part in the current plan for NI is a loss of 1 seat from 18 to 17. It's estimated the unionist nationalist split would be 10-7 with no unionists west of the Bann as East Londonderry would disappear. Wonder if that will change?

[The Mighty Thor]

The DUP weren't murdering anyone. You can attack them for many things other than that but doing so just shows your own ignorance.

No I'm sure the DUP hierarchy and their membership were condemning the violence.

Remind me how big the DUP's Catholic membership is?

 

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[deesidejambo]

I'm fully on board with the concept that all votes count equal and a minority party should not be prevented from gaining a position of power and influence. But there are particular problems regarding the DUP and NI power sharing, as already stated.

 

On another note.. Theresa May herself discredited the idea of a minority party, specifically led from outside Westminster, holding a coalition / C&S position with the Labour Party. Now she's done precisely that. The hypocrisy of that is just marvelous.

I'd expect May is just hanging on now and will resign once the dust settles.  I'll give it six months.   Her credibility is damaged and she is smart enough to know it.  

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I'm fully on board with the concept that all votes count equal and a minority party should not be prevented from gaining a position of power and influence. But there are particular problems regarding the DUP and NI power sharing, as already stated.

 

On another note.. Theresa May herself discredited the idea of a minority party, specifically led from outside Westminster, holding a coalition / C&S position with the Labour Party. Now she's done precisely that. The hypocrisy of that is just marvelous.

No, they aren't problems because you say they are.

 

I do agree with your last paragraph though and the longer she stays the more of a lame duck she will make herself.