Indy Ref Part Deux

[Mikey1874]

The abrasive language or 'clever' nicknames from both sides doesn't help -

I don't care if its 'NatCretin' or 'Yoony', 'Nippy' or 'Rooth the Mooth', 'Wee Jimmy Krankie' or 'Maggie May', 'Natsi' or 'Traitors'.

When I start seeing this language I generally skip past the rest of the details in the post as I'd rather not waste my time reading insults and empty rhetoric.

The people doing this are just stupid

 

But it is funny they don't realise that

[Scallywag]

Aye, but Scotland in Europe in any way shape or form and you can kiss goodbye to Fisheries being controlled by Scotland. Its this kind of situation that makes the SNP position utter nonsense.  

I dont expect Scotland to ever have full control of their fisheries, the Tories will trade it away and I would expect an Independant Scotland would also enter into a deal of some kind although hopefully on more favourable terms as it actualy matters in Scotland.

[Mikey1874]

Out? We are IN NOW. Why would we leave? The UK is leaving. We get an Indy vote before Brexit and we will argue that we are simply Maintaining membership.

Why is Sweden a poor comparison when Monetnegro & Bosnia isnt? They have never been part of the EU and Scotland already has EU rules as part of it's statutes so we are more than half way there already!

Scottish pound - Yes. Exchange rates? Who knows. Do you know what the Sterling/Euro rate will be tomorrow???

Understand where you are coming from. Maybe Nicola has negotiated an outline deal with EU to stay in.

 

We'll need to be told that.

 

Currently EU statements are saying we have to reapply to join same as everyone else say Turkey.

[JamboX2]

Both.

The Scottish Parliament votes to give the FM permission to ask the PM for a vote. The PM then grants that permission.

 

*or denies it, forcing a constitutional crisis

Thing is Holyrood doesn't need to vote. It's a political gesture.

[Space Mackerel]

Thing is Holyrood doesn't need to vote. It's a political gesture.

Eh? Of course it needs to vote. Holyrood then has a mandate.

[Francis Albert]

Out? We are IN NOW. Why would we leave? The UK is leaving. We get an Indy vote before Brexit and we will argue that we are simply Maintaining membership. 

Why is Sweden a poor comparison when Monetnegro & Bosnia isnt? They have never been part of the EU and Scotland already has EU rules as part of it's statutes so we are more than half way there already!

Scottish pound - Yes. Exchange rates? Who knows. Do you know what the Sterling/Euro rate will be tomorrow???

Scotland is not a member of the EU.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Think what you are looking at a slow disintegration of society.

 

Scotland has never had it so good. People are living longer, have more things.

 

But it suits smoe politicians to stir it up and claim the people want more.

 

When I was a kid in the 70s in West Lothian we had 1 toilet, 1 phone, 1 b/w telly, 1 car, holidays in Fife and in the winter I had ice on the inside of my bedroom window.

 

Now we have 4 toilets, many smartphones, landline and internet, 5 TVs, 3 cars and foriegn holidays but we need more!

When did we join the EU?

[JamboX2]

But this thread is full of Labour voters who say the economics of an independent Scotland are a basket case, they don't care about who is in charge down south compared to financial Armageddon. (Their view not mine, but it is not me that needs convincing)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Personally (as a Labour voter) both Dugdale and Corbyn have acted abysmally here. I lean towards No as a result of a multitude of reasons. However, that aside, Corbyn should not have undermined Dugdale. But equally Dugdale should have distanced herself from the Davidson approach.

 

She should have said I do not believe we should have another vote (focus on new powers line) but when Sturgeon came out saying she'd hold one she should've just switched to "she's got the votes, it's coming up - so be it, let's hold it".

 

The economics of both Brexit and Independence are relatively volatile and I don't necessarily think either side can argue what is or is not a better deal unlike the last time. The debate now is a better of two poor choices. It'll be interesting to see where things go.

[JamboX2]

Understand where you are coming from. Maybe Nicola has negotiated an outline deal with EU to stay in.

 

We'll need to be told that.

 

Currently EU statements are saying we have to reapply to join same as everyone else say Turkey.

You're both kinda right.

 

We will need to reapply as a new applicant and negotiate our own terms of membership. But we are much more compliant with entry rules so the process should hopefully be quicker.

[The Comedian]

You're both kinda right.

 

We will need to reapply as a new applicant and negotiate our own terms of membership. But we are much more compliant with entry rules so the process should hopefully be quicker.

 

Quicker but not guaranteed.

 

If the SNP want to talk about the benefits of a union, perhaps they should acknowledge Scotland has far better representation and does far more tariff free trade with the one it's currently been in since 1707. 

[manaliveits105]

The PM should call Jimmy Crankies bluff and demand a poll on whether the people of Scotland want an Indy2 ?

[Space Mackerel]

Quicker but not guaranteed.

 

If the SNP want to talk about the benefits of a union, perhaps they should acknowledge Scotland has far better representation and does far more tariff free trade with the one it's currently been in since 1707.

It's going to be quicker but not guaranteed???? Where does that logic come from?

 

You do know that any member of the EU can veto a policy put forward, but, it seems, no country can veto a policy within the UK political framework, unless it's England.

[Space Mackerel]

The PM should call Jimmy Crankies bluff and demand a poll on whether the people of Scotland want an Indy2 ?

Should she do that through Facebook or Twitter, or even here

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Hopefully Scotland adopts a Scottish pound this time. You would almost think the currency mistake last time was deliberate.

[Boab]

The PM should call Jimmy Crankies bluff and demand a poll on whether the people of Scotland want an Indy2 ?

 

 

A referendum on whether there should be a referendum ?

 

**** it, i;m game !

[Space Mackerel]

Hopefully Scotland adopts a Scottish pound this time. You would almost think the currency mistake last time was deliberate.

I hope this happens too.

But, then the Rothschilds would be after us though :-/

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I hope this happens too.

But, then the Rothschilds would be after us though :-/

Top tip. Stop reading Infowars!

[The Comedian]

It's going to be quicker but not guaranteed???? Where does that logic come from?

 

You do know that any member of the EU can veto a policy put forward, but, it seems, no country can veto a policy within the UK political framework, unless it's England.

We've already integrated into EU legislation as we are a current member via the UK.

 

I do know that, I also know one vote can veto our entry.

[Cruyff Turn]

Scotland is not a member of the EU.

It is actually.

 

If Scotland is a country within a United Kingdom, then it is part of the EU.

 

It doesn't have Independent Membership,then again neither does England.

 

I think the point is that if England wishes to leave as one half of the UK then why should we? They are not our masters.

 

We live in a democracy apparently, yet returning 58 out of 59 MP's to the UK Parliament opposed to leaving the EU and voting 62-38% against leaving the EU means nothing to them.

 

That is the jist of it.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It is actually.

 

If Scotland is a country within a United Kingdom, then it is part of the EU.

 

It doesn't have Independent Membership,then again neither does England.

 

I think the point is that if England wishes to leave as one half of the UK then why should we? They are not our masters.

 

We live in a democracy apparently, yet returning 58 out of 59 MP's to the UK Parliament opposed to leaving the EU and voting 62-38% against leaving the EU means nothing to them.

 

That is the jist of it.

Scotland becoming independent doesn't mean that Scotland is a successor state of the UK. The UK signed the treaties, the UK is the entity leaving.

[kila]

Scotland has a lot to offer in scientific research and in the finance industry.

 

Given the UK (at the moment) isn't willing to give EU citizens any rights, it'd be in the EU's interest to fast track an independent Scotland to protect their citizens' rights (than delay/destabilise them).

 

Long 2 years ahead of us, a lot will change.

[Francis Albert]

You're both kinda right.

 

We will need to reapply as a new applicant and negotiate our own terms of membership. But we are much more compliant with entry rules so the process should hopefully be quicker.

The economic issues are as clear as mud but there is no evidence that Scotland would be more compliant with the critical required economic tests for membership than other applicants.

[The Comedian]

It is actually.

 

If Scotland is a country within a United Kingdom, then it is part of the EU.

 

It doesn't have Independent Membership,then again neither does England.

 

I think the point is that if England wishes to leave as one half of the UK then why should we? They are not our masters.

 

We live in a democracy apparently, yet returning 58 out of 59 MP's to the UK Parliament opposed to leaving the EU and voting 62-38% against leaving the EU means nothing to them.

 

That is the jist of it.

No, it's not.

 

We voted to remain in the UK complete with its archaic political structure.

 

The UK which we decided to stay a part of voted to leave the EU.

 

That's democracy and that's the jist of it. What happens now is anyone's guess.

[Space Mackerel]

Top tip. Stop reading Infowars!

Never seen it, maybe once, I can't remember.

 

But this is a good watch to see the evolution of global capitalism.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Never seen it, maybe once, I can't remember.

 

But this is a good watch to see the evolution of global capitalism.

 

Capitalism wins every time. Which is why May's Brexit rhetoric will be softer in reality.

[Space Mackerel]

Capitalism wins every time. Which is why May's Brexit rhetoric will be softer in reality.

It's an hour an 10 mins long that doc, get back to me after you've watched it Geoff. [emoji106]

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The economic issues are as clear as mud but there is no evidence that Scotland would be more compliant with the critical required economic tests for membership than other applicants.

Economic tests only apply for joining the Euro.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It's an hour an 10 mins long that doc, get back to me after you've watched it Geoff. [emoji106]

I've better things to do with my life.

[Cade]

IF the UK breaks up before Brexit is finalised, there is a case for Scotland being treated as a successor state and maintaining membership of the EU.

 

If not, then we'll just have to wait 5 years and negotiate our way in like everybody else has, starting with membership of EFTA, Schengen and the EU Customs Union

[Space Mackerel]

I've better things to do with my life.

Scared you'll see something you won't like?

[Victorian]

Good interview with a Glasgow woman on C4 news. She says what I've been saying regarding the case that must be put forward by the leave campaign. They MUST build a case based on facts, figures and credible evidence on the economy. Or at least do as well as they can. It can't be done this time on vague aspirations and sentiments about Scotland being vibrant and full of potential, etc. Winning hearts and minds isn't enough. Fully costed plans, forecasts and principles must be at the forefront. The case will need to be proved. Failure to provide the best possible fact based case will fail at the polls and should see the end of Sturgeon's career.

[JamboX2]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/darren-loki-mcgarvey-yes-campaign-must-drop-the-moral-argument-1-4391456

 

Superb article. Hopefully Yes and No do behave a lot more grown up about this amd realise this is not and can not be a moral crusade.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Scared you'll see something you won't like?

Hardly.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

IF the UK breaks up before Brexit is finalised, there is a case for Scotland being treated as a successor state and maintaining membership of the EU.

 

If not, then we'll just have to wait 5 years and negotiate our way in like everybody else has, starting with membership of EFTA, Schengen and the EU Customs Union

What case is that? There's no legal basis for it. Plus there's no way the EU would grant Scotland the current UK optouts.

 

Scottish membership of Schengen would be interesting. There definitely would be border posts at Berwick in that scenario.

[Cruyff Turn]

No, it's not.

 

We voted to remain in the UK complete with its archaic political structure.

 

The UK which we decided to stay a part of voted to leave the EU.

 

That's democracy and that's the jist of it. What happens now is anyone's guess.

No. That is incorrect. We voted to remain part of the United Kingdom as an equal partner with England.

 

The Bill to have an EU referendum was voted against by Scottish MP's within the UK Parliament. Those MP's were elected by the Scottish electorate who voted to remain part of the UK constitution.

 

So what is the point in the United Kingdom if Scottish votes mean nothing?

 

We clearly don't live in a Democracy. The UK clearly does not work and Devolution has not solved this problem.

[DanishTam10]

Good interview with a Glasgow woman on C4 news. She says what I've been saying regarding the case that must be put forward by the leave campaign. They MUST build a case based on facts, figures and credible evidence on the economy. Or at least do as well as they can. It can't be done this time on vague aspirations and sentiments about Scotland being vibrant and full of potential, etc. Winning hearts and minds isn't enough. Fully costed plans, forecasts and principles must be at the forefront. The case will need to be proved. Failure to provide the best possible fact based case will fail at the polls and should see the end of Sturgeon's career.

 

And what the political infrastructure of a Scotland outside the uk will be. Surely we can't just rely on the pr system and Holyrood as it is. 

 

We would need more things as part of the system. 

[JamboX2]

Good interview with a Glasgow woman on C4 news. She says what I've been saying regarding the case that must be put forward by the leave campaign. They MUST build a case based on facts, figures and credible evidence on the economy. Or at least do as well as they can. It can't be done this time on vague aspirations and sentiments about Scotland being vibrant and full of potential, etc. Winning hearts and minds isn't enough. Fully costed plans, forecasts and principles must be at the forefront. The case will need to be proved. Failure to provide the best possible fact based case will fail at the polls and should see the end of Sturgeon's career.

If it was Vonny Moyes she had a superb article on this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-snp-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Add_to_Facebook

 

The pro-Union campaign may be handicapped by the newly found political maturity of the Yes Campaigns "other voices" this time around. Outwith the SNP's support the movement seems to be waking up and asserting itself against the more patriotic, moral crusade of the SNP led campaign last time out.

[Space Mackerel]

Hardly.

Oh well, guess you're more than aware of a global elite. Maybe infowars are correct after all in some aspects.

[Boab]

I've better things to do with my life.

 

 

That's why i'm only going to look in now and again.

 

This thread will give the sevco one a run for it's money and the posts in two years time will be saying, essentially, the same things.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

No. That is incorrect. We voted to remain part of the United Kingdom as an equal partner with England.

 

The Bill to have an EU referendum was voted against by Scottish MP's within the UK Parliament. Those MP's were elected by the Scottish electorate who voted to remain part of the UK constitution.

 

So what is the point in the United Kingdom if Scottish votes mean nothing?

 

We clearly don't live in a Democracy. The UK clearly does not work and Devolution has not solved this problem.

Every MP has an equal vote. Scotland doesn't have a veto.

[JamboX2]

IF the UK breaks up before Brexit is finalised, there is a case for Scotland being treated as a successor state and maintaining membership of the EU.

 

If not, then we'll just have to wait 5 years and negotiate our way in like everybody else has, starting with membership of EFTA, Schengen and the EU Customs Union

There's no argument. Remember the non-existent legal advice?

 

If we are to be independent all of this cannot be pre-determined. I fear the SNP will use it to do so. We need to re-examine the EU and the terms in which we do business. Not just assuming the status-quo of SNP policy is best.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Oh well, guess you're more than aware of a global elite. Maybe infowars are correct after all in some aspects.

Bless.

 

You sound like the sort of person who believes the myth about countries without central banks.

[Victorian]

And what the political infrastructure of a Scotland outside the uk will be. Surely we can't just rely on the pr system and Holyrood as it is.

 

We would need more things as part of the system.

I agree. The parliament of an independent Scotland would need a full review in terms of the voting system. The current system at Holyrood is not democratic.

[Victorian]

If it was Vonny Moyes she had a superb article on this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-snp-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Add_to_Facebook

 

The pro-Union campaign may be handicapped by the newly found political maturity of the Yes Campaigns "other voices" this time around. Outwith the SNP's support the movement seems to be waking up and asserting itself against the more patriotic, moral crusade of the SNP led campaign last time out.

Yes that was her.

[Cruyff Turn]

Every MP has an equal vote. Scotland doesn't have a veto.

Nor does England.

 

So 1 English MP's vote counts more than the entire Scottish electorate? Equal right enough.

[frankblack]

Spanish Foreign Minister has vowed that they will veto Scotland taking UK European place after Brexit. That puts Scotland at the back of the queue for membership and years away from entry.

 

So Sturgeon's claim that the Indy 2 Referendum is a choice between Brexit and continued EU membership is a blatant lie.

 

Spain have been consistent with their position since before the last Indy Ref. The SNP are proving to be a national embarrassment with no economic or foreign policies yet want to separate us from the UK and cut us adrift to oblivion.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/spain-independent-scotland-would-be-at-the-back-of-eu-queue

[Don Dan]

Back peddling already!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/14/nicola-sturgeon-signals-scotland-referendum-could-be-held-after-brexit

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Nor does England.

 

So 1 English MP's vote counts more than the entire Scottish electorate? Equal right enough.

Um, no one claimed England did. The parliamentary vote overall was in favour of invoking Article 50.

[Space Mackerel]

Bless.

 

You sound like the sort of person who believes the myth about countries without central banks.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. [emoji53]

 

Maybe some other posters will watch it.

[Martin_T]

Has it been clarified yet as to whether this thread will be allowed to remain open on the day of the vote itself yet?