Indy Ref Part Deux

[luckydug]

On the subject of pensions. The Tories have stolen the pensions of thousands of women in their sixties.

I agree that the pension age had to be equalised but the previous Labour government had planned to spread the changes over a longer period. The Tories came in and immediately went back on that arrangement.

This left thousands of women with a black hole in their pension arrangements with no time to address the matter.

There has been lobbying and protests at Westminster to this robbery but the party of the greedy and selfish just ignore them.

I wonder if anyone on here knows what the Scottish governments policy on this injustice is ?

[i8hibsh]

They will be paid the same way as expats are paid. If you pay into a scheme for 50 years you're entitled to it or it's fraud. It's guaranteed, fact. Further post Indy pension schemes will be set up in due course.

Not every thing to come to Scotland is debt. We're due assets too.

 

 

Yes, but how do splits work? what assets are worth much? Oil has 50 years max.

[aussieh]

So the SNP have governed for ten years so know the state of Scotland's financial power and still want total Indy, and the Tories about the same time and still want the union.

 

Funny that

[Boris]

It is a logistical ******* nightmare.  Everything about everything, not just pensions.  I know the Natcretins will try and Cherry pick to the max but we are going to be inheriting serious financial burdens here and a massive deficit (not too large to be granted EU membership). 10% of national debt ffs.  That is 150 billion at least.  Dwindling oil demand and prices plummeting.  It's a'right likes we pure have wind and shortbread though.

 

Better Together with hard brexit, WTO trade tariffs and a nearly ?2trillion national debt and a deficit of c.?20bn.  Rock or a hard (Brexit) place.

[Nookie Bear]

Does an Independent Scotland still need to buy the pensions out?

 

I am not avoiding your question with a question BTW, I don't know the answer, I don't even understand the question.

Again, this is the kind of info that should be available right now, not discussed further down the line.

 

Will check.

[Cade]

Folk seem not to understand how the State Pension works.

 

The government does not take your NI contributions, put them in a nice wee savings account that you then draw out of once you retire.

 

NI is taken from the working population then immediately paid out to pensioners. There is no pot to "buy out".

 

The transfer of pensions would be immediate. All NI generated in Scotland stays in Scotland and is used to pay the state pension right away.

 

(until a new, fully funded scheme is launched because the NI model doesn't work any more due to the increasing age of the population as a whole)

[jambo lodge]

I think that because there is no mind for Westminster to negotiate on Scotland's behalf in the Brexit talks is why there is talk of a referendum.

 

Were that on the table, I don't think there would have been this announcement yesterday.

 

 

There would be no point in the UK trying to get a special deal for Scotland as Spain would have opposed it. Which part of this very simple proces does Nicola or you not undertsand. The UK is the member of the EU, the tail cannot wag the dog. The SNP are a one issue party, clearly demonstrated by their terrible record in government , its just any excuse for a second referendum.    

[jambo lodge]

So the SNP have governed for ten years so know the state of Scotland's financial power and still want total Indy, and the Tories about the same time and still want the union.

 

Funny that

 

Even funnier was the cry for full fiscal autonomy and when offered the SNP retreated as fast as they could. 

[Boris]

There would be no point in the UK trying to get a special deal for Scotland as Spain would have opposed it. Which part of this very simple proces does Nicola or you not undertsand. The UK is the member of the EU, the tail cannot wag the dog. The SNP are a one issue party, clearly demonstrated by their terrible record in government , its just any excuse for a second referendum.    

 

But they are happy to lobby for an open border in Ireland and rumour of a special deal for the city of london.  But not even prepared to discuss one of their "equal partners" request at Brexit negotiations?

 

Hmm....

[luckydug]

There would be no point in the UK trying to get a special deal for Scotland as Spain would have opposed it. Which part of this very simple proces does Nicola or you not undertsand. The UK is the member of the EU, the tail cannot wag the dog. The SNP are a one issue party, clearly demonstrated by their terrible record in government , its just any excuse for a second referendum.

 

The terrible record in government is your opinion. As they keep getting elected other people clearly disagree with you.

[kingantti1874]

On you go.

Iit's our biggest private employment sector, and the vast majority of their customers are English. If yes happens there will be job losses in the thousands north of the border when they relocate. And they will relocate.. there's a bigger financial blackhole..

[kingantti1874]

The terrible record in government is your opinion. As they keep getting elected other people clearly disagree with you.

Stupid people who vote for the party who promise the biggest handouts regardless of the fact we can't afford it..

[i8hibsh]

To sway away from fiscal matters as not one person on the planet can answer them regarding this as they are yet to be discussed by those that matter, let us talk about matters we do know about.  Border control and national security.  SNP want an independent Scotland to be less armed, less secure and have no borders.  Can someone justify this to me please.  I know they want us to be a'bodys pal but I live in the real ****ing world.

[Harry Potter]

Who will give permission to the Nats for a 2nd Indy vote, Is it westminster or a vote within our Scottish parliament.

[Don Dan]

So pensioners need to remain in the UK to receive their pensions? So no going to Spain to retire in the sun for example, no?

Helpful article on pensions if independence were ever to happen.

[i8hibsh]

Folk seem not to understand how the State Pension works.

 

The government does not take your NI contributions, put them in a nice wee savings account that you then draw out of once you retire.

 

NI is taken from the working population then immediately paid out to pensioners. There is no pot to "buy out".

 

The transfer of pensions would be immediate. All NI generated in Scotland stays in Scotland and is used to pay the state pension right away.

 

(until a new, fully funded scheme is launched because the NI model doesn't work any more due to the increasing age of the population as a whole)

 

 

Surely, they get invested.  I would imagine it is all in funds just like companies do.  

[Nookie Bear]

Iit's our biggest private employment sector, and the vast majority of their customers are English. If yes happens there will be job losses in the thousands north of the border when they relocate. And they will relocate.. there's a bigger financial blackhole..

Financial services?

 

Think about 150k jobs in Scotland and 50k in Edinburgh.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Fair point. Common sense says they would have surely put in a caveat to say if the EU threw out our ex-pats then we would reciprocate. A lot of businesses now really nervous. One of my customers (Caledonian Produce in Bo-ness who eploy around 500) claim they cant employ enough Scottish folk and without the EU nationals, they will have to downsize dramatically or close the doors. Same right across the country. Some of the EU nationals are now in mid management levels withing Scottish businesses now. This plays right into the hands of the YES campaign...which is nice.

 

Pans, May has already tried to get this taken off the negotiating table for both our ex-pats and EU folk living here. Led by Merkel the EU said no.

[i8hibsh]

Stupid people who vote for the party who promise the biggest handouts regardless of the fact we can't afford it..

 

You have just described socialists .  No shock that the majority of Nat supporters are on the take in life.

[The Don]

On the pensions issue I'm not totally sure how it all works however if people remember even just a few weeks ago the U.K. Was told by the EU that a large part of the possible ?56billion bill for leaving the EU was for pensions. So in effect Scotland leaving the U.K. Would be the same. But Scotland also being part of the EU and then going through Brexit would or could be doubly hit because of our share in Brexit bill (pensions wise)

 

It's all pretty fecked up tbh and the annoying thing is the likes of May, Sturgeon, Corbyn and many other politicians and your elitist groups are not the ones really affected by it all. It's the likes of us, your normal everyday Joe blogs that will bear the cost of everything.

 

 

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[Cade]

Who will give permission to the Nats for a 2nd Indy vote, Is it westminster or a vote within our Scottish parliament.

Both.

The Scottish Parliament votes to give the FM permission to ask the PM for a vote. The PM then grants that permission.

 

*or denies it, forcing a constitutional crisis

[kingantti1874]

Better Together with hard brexit, WTO trade tariffs and a nearly ?2trillion national debt and a deficit of c.?20bn. Rock or a hard (Brexit) place.

how can you call out the UK deficit as a negative when Scotlands share of the ?20bn is 75% ..

 

How can you argue that Scotland will be in a good position to negotiate a trade deal with the UK and at the same time believe the UK is In a weak position with regard to EU and wider negotiations..

 

It is independence at all costs for most of the zealots on here, the numbers do not add up,the nationalist logic is not correct..

[i8hibsh]

No, they are paid out of current taxation, what was paid previously has been spent elsewhere.

 

Not totally doubting you but I would be very very surprised if nothing was invested.

[jambo lodge]

But they are happy to lobby for an open border in Ireland and rumour of a special deal for the city of london.  But not even prepared to discuss one of their "equal partners" request at Brexit negotiations?

 

Hmm....

 

The UK will negotiate the best deal for the whole of the UK, what is so difficult to understand. If that includes a special deal for the financial sector in London ( which the EU will also want ) and a special deal for an open border in Ireland so be it. There is nothing " special or distinctive" about Scotland except perhaps the scale of its deficit and for some their obsession with Independence.  

[Seymour M Hersh]

We stay in the EU or the single market and there wont be enough buildings in Edinburgh to house the big Financial institutions re-locating to Edinburgh & no, we wont be using the Euro (see Sweden who are in the EU but still use the Krona).

 

Then we Scotland would not be admitted. It is mandatory for countries now joining the EU to adopt the Euro. Of course that might change when it goes down the pan.

[i8hibsh]

Number of times the Single Market was mentioned during the entire indyfail1 campaign = 0

Number of times the Single Market has been mentioned so far before the indyfail2 campaign has even started = 15,254,254,259,650,784,362,149

 

Anyone not even questioning this?  It clearly was never that important.

[The Don]

how can you call out the UK deficit as a negative when Scotlands share of the ?20bn is 75% ..

 

How can you argue that Scotland will be in a good position to negotiate a trade deal with the UK and at the same time believe the UK is In a weak position with regard to EU and wider negotiations..

 

It is independence at all costs for most of the zealots on here, the numbers do not add up,the nationalist logic is not correct..

The real figures the extremists and teeth gnashers don't like to talk about, and what makes it worse is these figures are from the Scottish governments own GERS so they can hardly argue against them or say they are made up or yoon propaganda.

 

Total Public Sector Revenue 2015-16

 

Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea, Scottish public sector revenue was estimated as ?53.7 billion (7.9 per cent of UK revenue). Of this, ?60 million was North Sea revenue.

 

Scotland?s illustrative share of North Sea revenue fell from ?1.8 billion in 2014-15 to ?60 million, reflecting a decline in total UK North Sea revenue.

 

Scotland?s public sector revenue is equivalent to ?10,000 per person, ?400 less than the UK average, regardless of the inclusion of North Sea revenue.

 

Total Public Sector Expenditure 2015-16

 

Total expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the Scottish Government, UK Government, and all other parts of the public sector was ?68.6 billion. This is equivalent to 9.1 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, and ?12,800 per person, which is ?1,200 per person greater than the UK average.

 

Current Budget Balance 2015-16

 

This is the difference between total revenue and current expenditure (i.e. excluding capital investment). The current budget balance:

 

Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of ?12.7 billion (8.6 per cent of GDP).

 

Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of ?12.6 billion (8.1 per cent of GDP).

 

For the UK, was a deficit of ?41.5 billion (2.2 per cent of GDP)

 

Net Fiscal Balance 2015-16

 

This is the difference between total revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:

 

Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of ?14.9 billion (10.1 per cent of GDP).

 

Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of ?14.8 billion (9.5 per cent of GDP).

 

For the UK, was a deficit of ?75.3 billion (4.0 per cent of GDP).

 

 

 

 

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[luckydug]

Stupid people who vote for the party who promise the biggest handouts regardless of the fact we can't afford it..

 

So everyone else is daft apart from you ?

[Nookie Bear]

But they are happy to lobby for an open border in Ireland and rumour of a special deal for the city of london.  But not even prepared to discuss one of their "equal partners" request at Brexit negotiations?

 

Hmm....

Like it or not, the City is so fundamental to the health of the UK economy that it needs protected (I know you will disagree) to an extent.

 

What makes Scotland so unique that it needs separate considerations from, say, Manchester and Birmingham? Apart from the make up of MP's.

[Harry Potter]

Both.

The Scottish Parliament votes to give the FM permission to ask the PM for a vote. The PM then grants that permission.

 

*or denies it, forcing a constitutional crisis

Thankyou, that clears that up, well explained.

[i8hibsh]

So now that you have been shown (how was it you put it) to not a have fully thought out your pensions argument you are moving onto this without admitting you were wrong, interesting.

 

The single market was mentioned loads in the last campaign, but it was in the context of Scotland remaining a full member of the EU, I am sure you will remember the stushie about Alex Salmond not releasing the Scottish Government's legal advise over this. It was one of the main issues of the last vote, as to if we would be in, out or have to re-apply for EU membership, which also impacted the currency debate. 

 

 

No I stated that I, like everyone holds no answers but what I do know (which is what I called you on) is that our pension would have to become independent to the UKs.

[Boris]

Like it or not, the City is so fundamental to the health of the UK economy that it needs protected (I know you will disagree) to an extent.

What makes Scotland so unique that it needs separate considerations from, say, Manchester and Birmingham? Apart from the make up of MP's.

Because we are equal partners in this Union, apparently, and overwhelmingly voted to remain in the eu? But wm seems to be slinging us a deafy on that.

[Don Dan]

Thankyou, that clears that up, well explained.

Or May says I make a decision once the final Brexit negotiations have been completed and we know where we All stand. By that time the political land scape of the UK could/'will have changed. The SNP for example may be out of power making and referendum irrelevant.

[i8hibsh]

Because we are equal partners in this Union, apparently, and overwhelmingly voted to remain in the eu? But wm seems to be slinging us a deafy on that.

 

 

What makes you think we are not equal? Proportionally there are more slums in England and the standard of life is better in Scotland than the rest of the UK.  

[AlphonseCapone]

It's amazing the number of experts that we have on the economy.

[Boris]

What makes you think we are not equal? Proportionally there are more slums in England and the standard of life is better in Scotland than the rest of the UK.

 

Not sure what standard of living etc has to do with being an equal partner in a political union?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Not guaranteeing that the EU nationals who live and work here can stay after Brexit is a bit of an own goal for Westminster I think. There must be more than 100,000 of them in Scotland alone. The couple next door to me are Polish. Both have a mortgage, kids and work full time. Both voted NO last time. He's now going to vote YES. So will the other 100,000 I think.

 

May has proposed a deal to guarantee EU citizens rights 3 times now and 3 times Merkel has rebuffed her, saying that the rules state that no negotiations can take place until article 50 is invoked.

Germany and one other country are hiding behind red tape and rules, whilst the other 25 were willing to bypass the rules and do a deal with the UK because of the sensitivity of the issue, but Germany put their foot down and prevented any deal on EU or UK citizens rights even being discussed before article 50 was invoked.

 

In some ways I would have preferred the UK to have just forced the EU's hand and guaranteed the rights of EU citizens living in the UK, however if the UK government did that without obtaining a reciprocal agreement from the EU, this would be seen by some, by many in fact, that the UK was abandoning the 1m Brits living in the EU and leaving them at the mercy of whatever country they happen to be living in. 

 

I am no fan of the Tories but folks are too quick to blame them for this, in truth the blame lays over on the Continent, not in the UK, May has bent over backwards to get a deal on this, unfortunately Frau Merkel can't say that she has done the same.

 

So perhaps you could tell your neighbours that the blame for this is with Germany, oh and their own countryman Donald Tusk as he's also stated that no deal can be done or even discussed beforehand.

 

The UK government have been left between a rock and a hard place on this because of the intransigence of others.

[Nookie Bear]

Because we are equal partners in this Union, apparently, and overwhelmingly voted to remain in the eu? But wm seems to be slinging us a deafy on that.

But Brexit is happening and it is up to Westminster to make that happen. It's not what I wanted but that was the vote.

 

So...we cannot change that, so what makes Scotland unique to afford it particular negotiations?

[AlphonseCapone]

But Brexit is happening and it is up to Westminster to make that happen. It's not what I wanted but that was the vote.

 

So...we cannot change that, so what makes Scotland unique to afford it particular negotiations?

What makes Northern Ireland or the City of London unique?

[i8hibsh]

Not sure what standard of living etc has to do with being an equal partner in a political union?

 

Because the constant diatribe towards Westminster is nauseating. It is made out (with no exaggeration) that we all live in slums and the English sit in their stately homes with their feet up sipping Champagne laughing at us and that is just simply not the case.  We have always done very well from this Union. As a country we had our finest purple patch from around 1850 - 1950 (arguably) this was all under the Union.  all our inventions and scientific discoveries have all been under the union.  When England prosper so do we and vice versa.  you guys need to get over yourselves - seriously.  Take the chip off as you could feed Africa with it.

 

[Nookie Bear]

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you claim to be a independent free thinker on the right of the political spectrum, but there is no obligation for Scotland to pay a state pension. Now this is very much not my view but it is why I used the phrase 'may have to pay it's pensioners a pension'.

 

You see pensions in the UK are basically just a welfare benefit payment the same as all the others, these pensioners are taking your tax money while not working, bloody free loaders.

I think we have to assume Scotland will pay a state pension.

[Spencer]

Those who voted Yes and Leave are the conundrum for the SNP. Sturgeon bangs on about 62% in a diametrically opposite manner of her lack of respect and contempt for 55%. She recognises and respects the democratic will when it suits her ideology. Trouble is we voted in the EU Referendum as a constituent element of the United Kingdom and not as an Independent Scotland

 

This staunch desire to remain part of the EU appears only to suit an agenda for Independence. In essence be offended by anything that makes the ultimate goal appear more attainable.

 

Onlookers in rest of UK and beyond appear astonished that the separatists wish to divorce from our largest trading partners and closest allies in order to forge a bond with an uncertain EU where we had a proportionately lesser impact than we would do as part of a UK post Brexit

 

I suspect that should another referendum be progressed, far from certain, the majority will decide they'd rather experience the post Brexit UK rather than deal with further uncertainty

 

This could yet backfire spectacularly on the SNP

[i8hibsh]

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you claim to be a independent free thinker on the right of the political spectrum, but there is no obligation for Scotland to pay a state pension. Now this is very much not my view but it is why I used the phrase 'may have to pay it's pensioners a pension'.

 

You see pensions in the UK are basically just a welfare benefit payment the same as all the others, these pensioners are taking your tax money while not working, bloody free loaders.

 

No, it is not a handout. A handout is a freebie.  They have worked for it and contributed their working lives for it.

[Nookie Bear]

What makes Northern Ireland or the City of London unique?

London = Money. Pretty basic but there it is (and it knocks on to the financial health of Scotland)

 

Genuinely do not know about Ireland (or care, tbh) but I am sure we can match their special status if we first go through decades of internal bombings and murders. That tends to get you attention.

[Nookie Bear]

I agree, I was just pointing out to I8everything that he miss understood me and then accused me of not thinking it through, when he was in fact talking baws.

No worries!

[tian447]

The Euro

 

I'm genuinely past the point of caring.  If we have to use the Euro, so be it.  Nothing is going to change that much, your day to day life will go about in exactly the same way, you'll just be using different banknotes and coins.

 

I'm not sure what to think on the new one if I'm honest.  I voted No, absolutely ****ing not, last time, but things have changed and the outlook for Britain at the minute is blurry at best.

 

If an independent Scotland was guaranteed to be accepted into the EU, I can see myself changing my vote at the next one, but some serious questions will need to be answered before any decision is made.

 

Let's be honest, we were straight up lied to by both sides last time, and many promises and plans were broken or complete shite to begin with.  I hope everyone has learned from what happened last time, and thinks about their vote a lot more than they did last time.  I hope harder questions are asked of our politicians and their plans scrutinized for all they are worth.  I want a definite plan of what would happen going forward, not some wishy-washy "Well we might do this" or "this should happen" nonsense.

 

I also hope the people that couldn't be arsed to vote last time, and in the Brexit vote, actually make an effort to get off their arses this time.

[AlphonseCapone]

London = Money. Pretty basic but there it is (and it knocks on to the financial health of Scotland)

 

Genuinely do not know about Ireland (or care, tbh) but I am sure we can match their special status if we first go through decades of internal bombings and murders. That tends to get you attention.

But the reasons why those are unique are pretty spurious if you take the we voted as an United Kingdom route. If you are willing to acknowledge, as May has, there are unique cases then Scotland with such an overwhelming vote for remaining is as valid/spurious as the others, imo.

[Pans Jambo]

You mean she is sensible and doesn?t make any ridiculous promises from the SNP Magic money tree.  Have you any idea how much it will cost the Scottish government to buy out all these pensions? How the **** can they be guaranteed under an independent Scotland.  If you think it will be a seamless transition for pension you are a bona fide idiot.  If Scotland goes bankrupt (which is very likely) pensioners are ****ed beyond any form of help.  No wonder they are opposed to it, they have worked their arses off for that.  Then the Scottish Nuisance Party comes along with zero regard for anyone bar themselves.

You do talk pish. You, We, have ALL paid it's the pension fund so its only fair that those who have can expect what they are due. Of course we will be 75 before the UK allows us to collect it though!

Bankrupt? What? Like ?1.7 Trillion and counting bankrupt? Why would Scotland go bankrupt? 

The fact is that currently, its illegal for the Scottish Government to spend 1 penny over their bloc grant (which is a part refund really) however, last year, the UK Government went about ?70Bn over theirs! Then they borrowed (on our behalf of course because we are not allowed to). The UK is a sinking ship and if yo cant see that then YOU are a bona fide idiot.

And lastly, who gives a feck about the SNP?

[Nookie Bear]

But the reasons why those are unique are pretty spurious if you take the we voted as an United Kingdom route. If you are willing to acknowledge, as May has, there are unique cases then Scotland with such an overwhelming vote for remaining is as valid/spurious as the others, imo.

But what concession can make up for Scotland voting Remain?

 

It cannot remain so what's the next step?

 

Many others in the UK feel the same way but the overall vote was to leave.

 

Plus, I voted Remain but don't want Indy so the figures are skewed in that respect.

[frankblack]

I'm genuinely past the point of caring.  If we have to use the Euro, so be it.  Nothing is going to change that much, your day to day life will go about in exactly the same way, you'll just be using different banknotes and coins.

 

I'm not sure what to think on the new one if I'm honest.  I voted No, absolutely ******* not, last time, but things have changed and the outlook for Britain at the minute is blurry at best.

 

If an independent Scotland was guaranteed to be accepted into the EU, I can see myself changing my vote at the next one, but some serious questions will need to be answered before any decision is made.

 

Let's be honest, we were straight up lied to by both sides last time, and many promises and plans were broken or complete shite to begin with.  I hope everyone has learned from what happened last time, and thinks about their vote a lot more than they did last time.  I hope harder questions are asked of our politicians and their plans scrutinized for all they are worth.  I want a definite plan of what would happen going forward, not some wishy-washy "Well we might do this" or "this should happen" nonsense.

 

I also hope the people that couldn't be arsed to vote last time, and in the Brexit vote, actually make an effort to get off their arses this time.

 

The Euro would have a massive negative impact on your life.  Would employers want to pay two different currencies and tax systems to workers who are either side of the border?

 

If you fancy a weekend down south you would need to get currency to spend.

 

The main concern about the Independence is that we will become an economic backwater with all the top companies moving down south where the majority of their customers are.  Unemployment would hit unprecedented levels.  Maybe we could use "Scotland's Oil" to subsidise this, though?