Indy Ref Part Deux

[Space Mackerel]

Wrong yet again. I said north east oil is done, which it is. They will not get back to peak production levels.

 

Its got at best 15 years left. 

[Pans Jambo]

Fair enough, you want some sort of strike against North Korea or Iran, which will cause the death of thousands, in the hope that your dream can come true. Deary me, what a selfish person.

 

Oil is dying a death as a commodity, every expert knows it. There are replacement technologies all over the place, and it will never get back to what is was a few years ago. If anything, the price will come down as OPEC fragments, Russia produces more and US fracking kicks in.

 Geez peace. Of course I dont.

You and I both know exactly hee haw about oil prices in the next 5 - 10 years but the minute theres a global catastrophe (like a war, theres been a few of those in the last 10 years) the oil prices rise. Fact.

[aussieh]

If the SNP could not live within their own budgets under FFA what does that tell you about potential for future independence.

I'm sorry but when exactly have the UK lived within their means. Anyway it's an Independence vote not a General Election.

[Malinga the Swinga]

 Geez peace. Of course I dont.

You and I both know exactly hee haw about oil prices in the next 5 - 10 years but the minute theres a global catastrophe (like a war, theres been a few of those in the last 10 years) the oil prices rise. Fact.

No it isn't a fact at all. A dispute in the a Middle East, of which there are plenty, means that OPEC fragments, countries require money and pump as many barrels as they can to flood the market place and the price goes down. Russia gets involved in dispute and they need money, produce more oil and the price drops. It is during peace that prices rise as OPEC and the other groups get together to rig prices.

 

Oil is finished, every one knows it, well part from one delusional poster who's mate is a CEO of an oil company, or at least that is the latest lie.

[Pans Jambo]

yes it will, when No wins again. Will you accept defeat this time?

What I think is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

 

Heres how it goes.

 

Middle Englandshire perpetually votes in a Tory government unless Labour can get it's act together (which is looking unlikely after about 27 challenges to the Labour leadership which have all failed).

 

Scotland perpetually votes in the SNP in Government as the Tories are toxic up here and Labour are...well, fecked to be honest.

 

How is this broken?

 

Westminster abolish the Scottish devolved parliament (Which would trigger something akin to UDI) or Scotland gets 95% home rule powers and the SNP disband as their Indy dream dies as theres no longer any need...OR

 

Scotland votes for Independence and we all stay best pals, trade with each other and keep the British Lions rugby team!

 

The UK is broken and the Tories cant fix it.

[Pans Jambo]

No it isn't a fact at all. A dispute in the a Middle East, of which there are plenty, means that OPEC fragments, countries require money and pump as many barrels as they can to flood the market place and the price goes down. Russia gets involved in dispute and they need money, produce more oil and the price drops. It is during peace that prices rise as OPEC and the other groups get together to rig prices.

 

Oil is finished, every one knows it, well part from one delusional poster who's mate is a CEO of an oil company, or at least that is the latest lie.

So if its finished for us then its finished for everyone else. The city will not like that.

 

Also, a dispute between the big oil producing nations is not the same as a full on war between the big oil producing nations.

[manaliveits105]

So 

1. We are guaranteed 100% absolutely no doubt about it to be allowed back into the EU - aye ?

2. SNP have sorted the currency out - they just dont want to tell us 

3. Despite them being wrong about their forecast that we would be financially viable within the 3 years in Indy1 - we will this time even if oil remains up shit creek - aye ?

 

You cant fool all of the people all of the time .

Start choosing your next leader and thanks for wasting more millions in another once in a generation referendumb.

[Pans Jambo]

So 

1. We are guaranteed 100% absolutely no doubt about it to be allowed back into the EU - aye ?

2. SNP have sorted the currency out - they just dont want to tell us 

3. Despite them being wrong about their forecast that we would be financially viable within the 3 years in Indy1 - we will this time even if oil remains up shit creek - aye ?

 

You cant fool all of the people all of the time .

Start choosing your next leader and thanks for wasting more millions in another once in a generation referendumb.

Can you wait for a bit until they release the manifesto regarding their plans for Indy? They haven't even asked the UK Government yet & I dont think anyone on here actually works for the SNP.

 

The manifesto wont be like the tens of millions for the NHS or the 'we dont want foreigners coming in' thing that you were promised in the run up to the EU referendum.

[Hasselhoff]

Funny how Nats are using "project fear 2" to dismiss anything they don't like the sound of but are predicting doom and gloom for the UK after Brexit. They bought the domain for ref.scot way back in march so they had this planned a long time before Brexit happened. If it wasn't Brexit, it would have been something else. Opportunistic to say the least.

 

We could easily wait and see how things go and if snp are still doing a good job in 2 or 3 years time they could have an Indy ref to get away from a struggling UK. Instead they are going for maximum uncertainty, hoping to sabotage the Brexit talks so that the UK suffers as much as possible. Hope May tells them where to go.

[maroonlegions]

Why Would I want to tell you. As I have stated many times, you are a fantasist, a delusional liar and an imbecile.

 You are one fecking rude individual, these debates should never become personal, beats me how you get away with insulting Spacey in such a personal way.

 

Does it make you feel like a man??

 

  

Would i  personally engage in any kind of dialog with someone who uses insults and personnel character slandering on here never mind out side of the inter net, like feck i would.  .

 

It seems that you have real issues with anyone who does not conform with your rigid status quo out look on world events , people are different whether you like it or not  and whether  it conforms with your take on life, get over it..

 

You need to really look at your decorum and mannerism on here, tell me you are not  like this in real life when you engage in debates with those of a different out look on world events.

 

 

If the people of Scotland decide to vote for Independence then no amount of insults and character assassinations  are going to change that. Cant be good for your blood pressure getting all worked up. 

[Hasselhoff]

And since there was a lot of chat a few pages back about pensions, this page details why nationalists jumped onto an incorrect statement from the DWP which they have now confirmed was not true.

 

http://rwbblog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/foi-request-putting-zombie-pensions.html?m=1

 

Project fear though, sorry

[By The Light..]

Think what you are looking at a slow disintegration of society.

 

Scotland has never had it so good. People are living longer, have more things.

 

But it suits smoe politicians to stir it up and claim the people want more.

 

When I was a kid in the 70s in West Lothian we had 1 toilet, 1 phone, 1 b/w telly, 1 car, holidays in Fife and in the winter I had ice on the inside of my bedroom window.

 

Now we have 4 toilets, many smartphones, landline and internet, 5 TVs, 3 cars and foriegn holidays but we need more!

[jack D and coke]

Or we could just get access to the single market via EEA/EFTA (whichever - the Norway option) and experience the benefits of being in the eu without actually being there.

 

Currency - see if you live in the south of england but want to go to amsterdam or paris you n eed to get currency. If you live here and want to go to theseplaces you need currency.

 

One of the laziest arguments yet, imo. Do people on either side of the irish border bother about the differences in currency?

Why not just draw money from a cashpoint over there? I very rarely get currency before I go anywhere now and if I've got euros leftover I keep them for the next time I travel onto the continent other than that I use the cash points like I do here or even just pay by card.

Hardly a biggy eh.

[Jammy T]

So let me get this right

 

The SNP is using Brexit as a lever - material change

 

The major criticism being that scotland aren't being guaranteed some sort of special status in Brexit negotiations

 

A key criticism of the Brexit vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for so the vote is invalid

 

Sturgeon wants the next referendum to be before negotiations for Brexit are concluded

 

i.e. She is asking Scots to vote on an issue because of a material change, the consequences of which to Scotland won't be known until after the referendum vote....

[frankblack]

So let me get this right

 

The SNP is using Brexit as a lever - material change

 

The major criticism being that scotland aren't being guaranteed some sort of special status in Brexit negotiations

 

A key criticism of the Brexit vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for so the vote is invalid

 

Sturgeon wants the next referendum to be before negotiations for Brexit are concluded

 

i.e. She is asking Scots to vote on an issue because of a material change, the consequences of which to Scotland won't be known until after the referendum vote....

 

Yip.  Pretty much this.

 

The hypocrisy from them is deafening.  The fact is if we go independent after Brexit we are completely screwed.  The markets will downgrade Scotland to a financial basket case and our service industry will vanish.

[aussieh]

So let me get this right

 

The SNP is using Brexit as a lever - material change

 

The major criticism being that scotland aren't being guaranteed some sort of special status in Brexit negotiations

 

A key criticism of the Brexit vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for so the vote is invalid

 

Sturgeon wants the next referendum to be before negotiations for Brexit are concluded

 

i.e. She is asking Scots to vote on an issue because of a material change, the consequences of which to Scotland won't be known until after the referendum vote....

EU exit, ring any bells?

[The Don]

You are one fecking rude individual, these debates should never become personal, beats me how you get away with insulting Spacey in such a personal way.

 

Does it make you feel like a man??

 

 

Would i personally engage in any kind of dialog with someone who uses insults and personnel character slandering on here never mind out side of the inter net, like feck i would. .

 

It seems that you have real issues with anyone who does not conform with your rigid status quo out look on world events , people are different whether you like it or not and whether it conforms with your take on life, get over it..

 

You need to really look at your decorum and mannerism on here, tell me you are not like this in real life when you engage in debates with those of a different out look on world events.

 

 

If the people of Scotland decide to vote for Independence then no amount of insults and character assassinations are going to change that. Cant be good for your blood pressure getting all worked up.

 

Tbf this paragraph made me chuckle

 

"Would i personally engage in any kind of dialog with someone who uses insults and personnel character slandering on here never mind out side of the inter net, like feck i would. . "

 

Basically by quoting and responding to him you have engaged in dialogue lol

 

 

 

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

So let me get this right

 

The SNP is using Brexit as a lever - material change

 

The major criticism being that scotland aren't being guaranteed some sort of special status in Brexit negotiations

 

A key criticism of the Brexit vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for so the vote is invalid

 

Sturgeon wants the next referendum to be before negotiations for Brexit are concluded

 

i.e. She is asking Scots to vote on an issue because of a material change, the consequences of which to Scotland won't be known until after the referendum vote....

To sum it up, I don't like the way the UK is going politically, I prefer Sturgeons vision to a more integrated society and be progressive in outlook.

 

Brexit is taking us backwards, they even reinforce it with this Empire v2.0, I mean FFS, only the utter spoon fed English Nats and utter daftys believe that pile of nonsense.

 

This all could have been avoided if Maggie May didn't cosy up to the UKIP'ers and far right of her party. She has ample opportunity to make concessions but Scotland has been snubbed, again. Looks like Nissan and the City are far more important than up here.

[The Don]

So let me get this right

 

The SNP is using Brexit as a lever - material change

 

The major criticism being that scotland aren't being guaranteed some sort of special status in Brexit negotiations

 

A key criticism of the Brexit vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for so the vote is invalid

 

Sturgeon wants the next referendum to be before negotiations for Brexit are concluded

 

i.e. She is asking Scots to vote on an issue because of a material change, the consequences of which to Scotland won't be known until after the referendum vote....

Here's the killer. That material change doesn't actually come into effect until the UK actually leaves the EU so until then there is no material change meaning the SNP supposed mandate is invalid.

 

 

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[Doogz]

Here's the killer. That material change doesn't actually come into effect until the UK actually leaves the EU so until then there is no material change meaning the SNP supposed mandate is invalid.

 

 

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Exactly !

[The Don]

Yip. Pretty much this.

 

The hypocrisy from them is deafening. The fact is if we go independent after Brexit we are completely screwed. The markets will downgrade Scotland to a financial basket case and our service industry will vanish.

Yeah but at least we'll be independent

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Here's the killer. That material change doesn't actually come into effect until the UK actually leaves the EU so until then there is no material change meaning the SNP supposed mandate is invalid.

 

 

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Maggie May has said there will be no customs Union so therefor no single market! Forget even being part of the EU. She won't accept a compromise because of the fear from losing Tory votes to UKIP down South.

[frankblack]

To sum it up, I don't like the way the UK is going politically, I prefer Sturgeons vision to a more integrated society and be progressive in outlook.

 

Brexit is taking us backwards, they even reinforce it with this Empire v2.0, I mean FFS, only the utter spoon fed English Nats and utter daftys believe that pile of nonsense.

 

This all could have been avoided if Maggie May didn't cosy up to the UKIP'ers and far right of her party. She has ample opportunity to make concessions but Scotland has been snubbed, again. Looks like Nissan and the City are far more important than up here.

 

So the big financial companies won't uproot and take their jobs down south when Scotland is both out of the EU and has become independent?

 

It would be an absolute disaster for our economy.  Even the Greeks wouldn't want to come here for work.

 

[Space Mackerel]

So the big financial companies won't uproot and take their jobs down south when Scotland is both out of the EU and has become independent?

 

It would be an absolute disaster for our economy. Even the Greeks wouldn't want to come here for work.

 

The big financial companies are already packing up from London and heading to Europe due to Brexit!

[The Don]

Maggie May has said there will be no customs Union so therefor no single market! Forget even being part of the EU. She won't accept a compromise because of the fear from losing Tory votes to UKIP down South.

We're not out of the EU yet. No deal has been done, negotiations haven't even started, you have no idea what has been said between May and Sturgeon, you also have no idea what May will try to negotiate, and nEither does the SNP, they have used Brexit as an opportunistic moment to try push through another Indy ref.

 

It was obvious from day one of the last defeat that the SNP would look for a loophole at all costs to hold another Indyref. The foamers and teeth gnashers online and in George square were shouting for UDI the day after it, That's how undemocratic the SNP and extremists are. They only respect democracy when it's in their favour. I know of another party and followers with the same attitude some 60 years ago, they also goose stepped.

 

There is no mandate for Indyref 2 (Yet) simple as that.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

We're not out of the EU yet. No deal has been done, negotiations haven't even started, you have no idea what has been said between May and Sturgeon, you also have no idea what May will try to negotiate, and nEither does the SNP, they have used Brexit as an opportunistic moment to try push through another Indy ref.

 

It was obvious from day one of the last defeat that the SNP would look for a loophole at all costs to hold another Indyref. The foamers and teeth gnashers online and in George square were shouting for UDI. That's how undemocratic the SNP and extremists are.

 

 

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Article 50 will be enacted on 27th this month, the U.K. government has been relentless fighting the courts, parliament and the Lords to get the bill through. Once it is invoked, there's no going back.

 

You should be forcing your anger at Maggie May, she's the one who's not listening.

[HaymarketJambo]

The big financial companies are already packing up from London and heading to Europe due to Brexit!

 

Correct.

 

They are looking at the Rep of Ireland - Dublin.   

[Scallywag]

Some of the pantwetting from the yoons is getting quite funny.

 

Many predicted the Torys would rip apart the Union and so far they have delivered. I am glad Sturgeon is giving us a way out of perpetual Tory governments we dont elect.

[deesidejambo]

Article 50 will be enacted on 27th this month, the U.K. government has been relentless fighting the courts, parliament and the Lords to get the bill through. Once it is invoked, there's no going back.

 

You should be forcing your anger at Maggie May, she's the one who's not listening.

You don't know if she's not listening or not.

 

But in terms of anger, mine goes 100% to David Cameron. I'll kick his pus in if I meet him. **** gambling clown.

[The Don]

Article 50 will be enacted on 27th this month, the U.K. government has been relentless fighting the courts, parliament and the Lords to get the bill through. Once it is invoked, there's no going back.

 

You should be forcing your anger at Maggie May, she's the one who's not listening.

You have no idea what May has listened to. As plenty others have explained the EU ( well Merkel and Tusk mainly) are the ones pushing the UK into a hard Brexit (So far) that could change. Other EU. Countries have upcoming elections and are on record as stating they want to make an example of the UK to dissuade Eurosceptics And anti EU voters in their own countries. If they see the UK getting a great deal (just now) they will will also be forced out of the EU and they do not want that.

 

Even once article 50 is triggered there has still be no material change to justify an Indyref2 only when the UK exits the EU which could take 2 years from triggering A50 will there then be a mandate.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Some of the pantwetting from the yoons is getting quite funny.

 

Many predicted the Torys would rip apart the Union and so far they have delivered. I am glad Sturgeon is giving us a way out of perpetual Tory governments we dont elect.

I suspect it will be the other way round when May tells Nicola to ram it.

[The Don]

I suspect it will be the other way round when May tells Nicola to ram it.

Tears and snotters galore.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Correct.

 

They are looking at the Rep of Ireland - Dublin.

There, Luxembourg, Amsterdam, Paris and Berlin.

 

No EU or EFTA, no banking passports issued. Say bye to 500 million customers. Sound business advice.

[Space Mackerel]

I suspect it will be the other way round when May tells Nicola to ram it.

An unelected failure in charge of the Home Office for 10 years v a competent leader with the biggest mandate in ever in all the devolved assemblies? You can add another 5% on to the Yes vote if she does.

[aussieh]

We're not out of the EU yet. No deal has been done, negotiations haven't even started, you have no idea what has been said between May and Sturgeon, you also have no idea what May will try to negotiate, and nEither does the SNP, they have used Brexit as an opportunistic moment to try push through another Indy ref.

 

It was obvious from day one of the last defeat that the SNP would look for a loophole at all costs to hold another Indyref. The foamers and teeth gnashers online and in George square were shouting for UDI the day after it, That's how undemocratic the SNP and extremists are. They only respect democracy when it's in their favour. I know of another party and followers with the same attitude some 60 years ago, they also goose stepped.

 

There is no mandate for Indyref 2 (Yet) simple as that.

 

 

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There's no indyref2 , yet.

[manaliveits105]

Has wee Nic checked if enough of the auld nawbags will have died off ?

[aussieh]

You don't know if she's not listening or not.

 

But in terms of anger, mine goes 100% to David Cameron. I'll kick his pus in if I meet him. **** gambling clown.

Something tells me Dave would drop you like a bag of dirty washing, Gin drinker.

[Space Mackerel]

Has wee Nic checked if enough of the auld nawbags will have died off ?

I'm sure a few will have passed on before the indyref2.

 

Not looking good for you is it, starting off at 50/50 and no one to lead Better Taegether 2 in the immediate or foreseeable future.

[Mikey1874]

I voted Yes last time and if there is another, I'd vote yes again.

 

We might be a small nation but we have so much to offer and soo much potential waiting to be utilised. Why else would Westminster campaign so hard to keep us united? England and the rest if the UK need us.

 

Scotland has untapped renewable engery, and with technology rapidly inproving this will only help. We could run the country off of renewable energy, helping us all reduce costs (a personal gain) and help reduce the carbon footprint (a national gain).

 

Yes, there's the oil, but basis an economy on a fluctuating product is stupid. Hiw can a government plan spending when it doesn't know how much it will have?? However this shouldn't be used as a point to reject independence. Any other nation would be over the moon to have such a resource at it's disposal.

 

I feel I'm rambling now, so a final point.TM won't listen to what Scotland want's during a massive decision like Brexit, then when is she or Westminster ever going to??

 

A Yes vote may not be great straight away but I like to think future generations will thank us

That is a decent go and probably more in line with how many people think.

 

See how realistic the campaign actually is.

[Mikey1874]

The sensible option but it won't satisfy the rabid Yes voters, can there be a caveat in the referendum that no other indy ref' can be called for 10/15 years?

Lifetime > Generation > Till we win

[manaliveits105]

I'm sure a few will have passed on before the indyref2.

Not looking good for you is it, starting off at 50/50 and no one to lead Better Taegether 2 in the immediate or foreseeable future.

Voted yes last time then post referendum found out the snp had just spun yarns about the economy and didnt have a scooby about currency - I wont be fooled again.

[Space Mackerel]

Voted yes last time then post referendum found out the snp had just spun yarns about the economy and didnt have a scooby about currency - I wont be fooled again.

What yarns? You're going to say oil before anything else but most sensible people know it's a volatile commodity.

 

What else?

[Mikey1874]

I said earlier I think this is what May will say to NS. She can have her Indy ref but only after we have exited the EU. Meaning the people of Scotland will then know exactly what we are voting for.

 

Like you say though this will not suit the rabid extremists because they want to treat the people as stupid and have us turning up to put an X on something that we don't know what we're voting for.

 

This isn't a game it's serious can't be rushed into blindly.

 

In the politics of 'grievance' Nicola probably knows this. Be interesting to know the exact thinking but its the 'staying in Europe' card. Needs EU to offer route to membership that doesn't currently exist. Not totally out of the question #Spain

 

Needs Wikileaks on this.

[Scallywag]

I suspect it will be the other way round when May tells Nicola to ram it.

If you listen to Nicola that is exactly what she's expecting. Difficult to trade away Scotland Fisheries and Agriculture when you know it may not be there to trade. Plus the seathe when an unelected Tory MP tells Scotland what to do is no bad thing.

[Scallywag]

Leaving is inevitable, but it may not be for long. No need for rabbits out of the hat with perpetual Tory rule as the other option.

[jambo lodge]

If you listen to Nicola that is exactly what she's expecting. Difficult to trade away Scotland Fisheries and Agriculture when you know it may not be there to trade. Plus the seathe when an unelected Tory MP tells Scotland what to do is no bad thing.

 

Aye, but Scotland in Europe in any way shape or form and you can kiss goodbye to Fisheries being controlled by Scotland. Its this kind of situation that makes the SNP position utter nonsense.  

[Jammy T]

If everyone was being honest the timing of this - on the material change ticket - can only be after Brexit and after a period time where the people of Scotland can assess on the materiality of change outside of the EU.

 

At least 2 years after Brexit IMO.

[Mikey1874]

Win or lose this will be Scotland's final independence vote. If it's no then I for one will be done.

The number One big risk of going now

[Jammy T]

EU exit, ring any bells?

No that's not her basis - it's the fact that May has given any guarantees as regards Scotland in the negotiations and that Sturgeon thinks it will be a hard Brexit.

 

That's the materiality put forward.

[Mikey1874]

Not guaranteeing that the EU nationals who live and work here can stay after Brexit is a bit of an own goal for Westminster I think. There must be more than 100,000 of them in Scotland alone. The couple next door to me are Polish. Both have a mortgage, kids and work full time. Both voted NO last time. He's now going to vote YES. So will the other 100,000 I think.

Agree

 

This is a clear divide with Scotland and a good argument for Yes, SNP etc.

 

They have also opened themselves to problems by implying they want negotiations to be private (all the not wanting Parliament to have a say etc). Could be 2 or 3 years to be settled when they could and should have said existing EU nationals could stay a few days after the vote. Which we all know will happen anyway.