More Tory lies

[Alex Kintner]

15 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

If they completely implode and remove Johnson, they will probably install Sunak, who is far more presentable and they can pin all the corruption on Boris as his fat arse is ejected out the No 10 window. 

The electorate, many who voted Brexit often against their best interests and voted Tory likewise will lap it up as soon as the Daily Mail steps up the charm offensive on Sunak's behalf. If you want Labour to win the next election, probably far better at this point that Boris remains in charge. 

Sunak’s been setting himself up for PM for ages. Briefing against Johnson with snippets about PM vs CoE drama. Why can’t we just have a down-to-earth PM that people can relate to instead of tosspot after tosspot. As much as some people hate Nicola Sturgeon, I don’t think anyone can argue she isn’t reasonably relatable as a person compared to Johnson and his cronies and previous PMs like May and Cameron.

[Savage Vince]

7 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

I was waiting for that one to come. Step up one of the biggest arsehole Krankies on here. Absolute disgrace you are, nothing but pond life and the scum upon it. 

 

 

I genuinely have no idea why you continue to get away with the utter filth you spew out on a daily basis but it's a very poor look for this forum. 

[Alex Kintner]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I find both Johnson and Sturgeon totally alien to me and my values. Wouldn’t trust either of them for a second. What do you mean by relatable? She is a huffy control freak whose main aim in life appears to have been to assume and maintain political power while he is a chancer who tries to pull off the loveable buffoon sleight of hand in order to do exactly the same. Relating to either of them is, IMO, not a desirable trait.

Forget her politics/values and look at her as a person. When being interviewed on TV she actually answers the question being asked and admits when she doesn’t know or gets things wrong. She explains things in a down to earth way. The difference in her Covid press conferences and the UK govt ones were night and day. She also seems so natural interacting with the public compared to most politicians and other world leaders genuinely seemed to find her endearing and approachable this past fortnight. 

 

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

So we’re still cool with racism on this board? Noted  

?

[Tazio]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

So we’re still cool with racism on this board? Noted  

You know the rules, only if it’s delivered with panache. The furious gammon type never works. 

[Tazio]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

You spelled pineapple wrong, Taz 🐷🍍🍴

I prefer a fried egg. 

[Alex Kintner]

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I think we've got different viewpoints on Sturgeon and these are unlikely to shift thanks to the subjective nature of what we look for in politicians. Fair enough, she impresses you and many others. I find her and her style quite objectionable, much as I do ol' BoJo's.

 

And, as I've pointed out on here before, gammon is, if not racist then at least, in the SNP-led brave new world of being careful with one's language, hate speech. I'm all for it, BTW - just as long as if gammon goes, then so should just about anything else.

Not sure how anyone could describe “gammon” as racist when it has nothing to do with someone’s race? 🤷🏻‍♂️ It’s a term to describe people with certain far right wing political views, lots of which are actually racist. Bit like using the term misogynist to describe someone who hates and discriminates against women.   

[Konrad von Carstein]

4 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Not sure how anyone could describe “gammon” as racist when it has nothing to do with someone’s race? 🤷🏻‍♂️ It’s a term to describe people with certain far right wing political views, lots of which are actually racist. Bit like using the term misogynist to describe someone who hates and discriminates against women.   

He knows, he's being, well, Jonesy.

[Savage Vince]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Aye, cos using a picture of Phil bloody Mitchell to exemplify what gammons look like doesn't hint at the target demographic of the insult.

 

It's okay to admit that gammon is an insult used against angry white middle-aged British men. It's actually pretty funny - descriptive and fairly cutting (if now ageing badly - a bit like the gammons themselves, hehehe). But let's not pretend it's not based on the race of the people involved which, by definition, makes it a racist trope. 

 

I doubt the same leeway would be given to Guardian journalists and JKB posters who were firing out banana comments at folk of Chinese descent.

 

Absolute nonsense. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Purveyor of truth bullets and slayer of hypocrisy?

 

Or peddler of unsubstantiated pish?

Either or 😎

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Either or 😎

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Aye, cos using a picture of Phil bloody Mitchell to exemplify what gammons look like doesn't hint at the target demographic of the insult.

 

It's okay to admit that gammon is an insult used against angry white middle-aged British men. It's actually pretty funny - descriptive and fairly cutting (if now ageing badly - a bit like the gammons themselves, hehehe). But let's not pretend it's not based on the race of the people involved which, by definition, makes it a racist trope. 

 

I doubt the same leeway would be given to Guardian journalists and JKB posters who were firing out banana comments at folk of Chinese descent.

If it encompassed all middle-aged British men then you’d maybe have a slight point. It doesn’t though. It only relates to the ones who turn a gammon shade of pink when they fly into a racist rant. The vast majority of other middle-aged white British men (which includes myself) aren’t racist and therefore aren’t gammons.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Beni said:

 

Imo it's difficult to look at this Brexit poster and agree with your conclusion.

 

 

As a Guardian reader you'll probably remember it caused quite a stooshie at the time.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants

Of course I remember it. But you miss my point just as Farage and the racists missed the point. Brexit was not in reality about cutting down on non-white immigration as has been proved in practice. What it meant was removing the privileged "freedom of movement" of predominantly white Europeans. And the consequence has been a reduction in the number of those immigrants and a roughly equivalent increase in immigration from countries which are less predominantly white. Fine with me. Shame for the racists.

[Savage Vince]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

including a notable list of BAME folk who have been accused of gammonry

 

It's funny when your mask slips, Jonesy. 😊

 

[Des Lynam]

13 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Aye, cos using a picture of Phil bloody Mitchell to exemplify what gammons look like doesn't hint at the target demographic of the insult.

 

It's okay to admit that gammon is an insult used against angry white middle-aged British men. It's actually pretty funny - descriptive and fairly cutting (if now ageing badly - a bit like the gammons themselves, hehehe). But let's not pretend it's not based on the race of the people involved which, by definition, makes it a racist trope. 

 

I doubt the same leeway would be given to Guardian journalists and JKB posters who were firing out banana comments at folk of Chinese or Japanese descent.

 

Lookalike problem Jonesy? 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

If it encompassed all middle-aged British men then you’d maybe have a slight point. It doesn’t though. It only relates to the ones who turn a gammon shade of pink when they fly into a racist rant. The vast majority of other middle-aged white British men (which includes myself) aren’t racist and therefore aren’t gammons.

Wow. Racist and ageist. And sexist.

My natural skin colour is I suppose a bit gammonish. 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Des Lynam]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

With my swarthy olive hue, I'm closer to Demi than Phil in the great clan Mitchell.

 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Alex Kintner said:

Sunak’s been setting himself up for PM for ages. Briefing against Johnson with snippets about PM vs CoE drama. Why can’t we just have a down-to-earth PM that people can relate to instead of tosspot after tosspot. As much as some people hate Nicola Sturgeon, I don’t think anyone can argue she isn’t reasonably relatable as a person compared to Johnson and his cronies and previous PMs like May and Cameron.

The hate Nicola stuff is mostly nonsense. Most women I speak to like her including my wife and daughter and I like her. Most of it is a media assault! If she was a poor leader they'd just let her go on but the unionists are cowards and are fantastically brilliant at proving it!

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The hate Nicola stuff is mostly nonsense. Most women I speak to like her including my wife and daughter and I like her. Most of it is a media assault! If she was a poor leader they'd just let her go on but the unionists are cowards and are fantastically brilliant at proving it!

Boris is a poor leader. Why don't we or they just let him go on?

Edited November 13, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Cade]

Being a mental, right-wing, permanently raging, red-faced arsehole is not a protected characteristic under equality laws.

 

That should clear things up.

 

[Gizmo]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Wow. Racist and ageist. And sexist.

My natural skin colour is I suppose a bit gammonish. 

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

8 hours ago, jonesy said:

That's not how it works though, Al. Slurs don't have to encompass all members of the group for them to be slurs. AFAIA, they just have to incorporate an element the 'protected characteristics' define. There are plenty of ways to insult and/or argue with Brexiteers/Tories/Jeremy Clarkson without having to rely on colour-based crap.

 

Anyway, unlikely we'll reach détente on this, so I don't want to risk derailing the thread any more than I already have done and wasting my or your precious time (especially when I was meant to be doing marking this fine Saturday evening!). Take it easy.

I agree with you on potentially taking the thread off topic so I’ll finish by saying I 100% refute the suggestion that ‘gammon’ is a racist term. It doesn’t focus on a protected characteristic of someone as it doesn’t focus on the fact their skin is white. It focuses on their racist and/or extreme right wing views and how they get so angry about the subject their face turns a gammon shade of pink.

 

Thankfully it’s a minority of people who hold those views and the majority if people hold reasonably balanced views.

[Beni]

9 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Of course I remember it. But you miss my point just as Farage and the racists missed the point. Brexit was not in reality about cutting down on non-white immigration as has been proved in practice. What it meant was removing the privileged "freedom of movement" of predominantly white Europeans. And the consequence has been a reduction in the number of those immigrants and a roughly equivalent increase in immigration from countries which are less predominantly white. Fine with me. Shame for the racists.

 

I'm not really missing your point, as anyone who understands free movement and migration from outside the EU appreciates how Brexit would impact on them. But you say Farage missed the point, I think he knew exactly what he was doing, by purposely conflating EU/non EU  migration he was encouraging racists to vote for Brexit, and that was the whole point of the poster.

So while Brexit wasn't about non EU migration for you, it was for some people.

The vote leave campaign knowingly lied to achieve their goal. (See also £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, and massive economic benefits).

As this is the Tory lies thread it's probably worth pointing out that the Prime Minister and most of the current cabinet were happy to spout these lies too.

[Victorian]

 

Other astonished faces of varieties of skin pigmentation are available and of equal value.  

[Savage Vince]

12 hours ago, jonesy said:

Nor is being a smartarse, Guardian reading, pseudo-intellectual, permanently outraged with the establishment, handwringing wet blanket.

 

Just helping with the clear up.  

 

It's you that got all outraged about gammons being called out for acting all gammony. 😁

[Tazio]

[Nucky Thompson]

13 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

If it encompassed all middle-aged British men then you’d maybe have a slight point. It doesn’t though. It only relates to the ones who turn a gammon shade of pink when they fly into a racist rant. The vast majority of other middle-aged white British men (which includes myself) aren’t racist and therefore aren’t gammons.

You'll find it's the anti Brexit and anti tory folk that are always raging.

Maybe gammon is being used to describe the wrong people

[Alex Kintner]

17 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You'll find it's the anti Brexit and anti tory folk that are always raging.

Maybe gammon is being used to describe the wrong people

Definitely seen plenty raging anti-Brexit and anti-Tory folk as well. Although rage is to be expected I suppose when there’s corruption, deceit and bare faced lying involved. Not quite the same as turning pink because someone else’s skin is dark.

[Savage Vince]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Sad to see the moral high ground being, hopefully temporarily, occupied by people with little more than a playground-level insult-and-giggle approach to discussion, but, so it goes.

 

I still very much doubt that general centre-left voices and ears would tolerate the mockery of many other groups based on the colour of someone's face.

 

Christ, you're even going on about people taking the moral high ground now. How incredibly ironic. 🤣

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, Alex Kintner said:

Definitely seen plenty raging anti-Brexit and anti-Tory folk as well. Although rage is to be expected I suppose when there’s corruption, deceit and bare faced lying involved. Not quite the same as turning pink because someone else’s skin is dark.

Informed anger over various aspects of the current corrupt government isn't remotely the same as the war-fetishising racist variety gammons getting all exercised and pink-faced when on QT when relishing the prospect of bombing some middle-eastern country or complaining about us not shooting dinghies full of refugees in the channel. 

[Alex Kintner]

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

Informed anger over various aspects of the current corrupt government isn't remotely the same as the war-fetishising racist variety gammons getting all exercised and pink-faced when on QT when relishing the prospect of bombing some middle-eastern country or complaining about us not shooting dinghies full of refugees in the channel. 

 

[Cade]

The rabid right calls people (among many, many, many other things);

"lefties"

"trotskyites"

"commies"

"crusties"

"hippies"

"social justice warriors"

"bleeding hearts"

"snowflakes"

"traitors"

"libs"

And those people's response is 

 

 

Some right-wing people get called "gammons" and it's "WHY ARE YOU PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME YOU RACISTS" 

[Alex Kintner]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

The rabid right calls people (among many, many, many other things);

"lefties"

"trotskyites"

"commies"

"crusties"

"hippies"

"social justice warriors"

"bleeding hearts"

"snowflakes"

"traitors"

"libs"

And those people's response is 

 

 

Some right-wing people get called "gammons" and it's "WHY ARE YOU PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME YOU RACISTS" 

 

PS You missed “woke”

 

[Alex Kintner]

3 hours ago, jonesy said:

Even Alex the K has, by unwittingly arguing with himself in successive sentences, admitted it might be a wee bit racist.

Can you elaborate on this Jonesy?

[Francis Albert]

10 hours ago, Beni said:

 

I'm not really missing your point, as anyone who understands free movement and migration from outside the EU appreciates how Brexit would impact on them. But you say Farage missed the point, I think he knew exactly what he was doing, by purposely conflating EU/non EU  migration he was encouraging racists to vote for Brexit, and that was the whole point of the poster.

So while Brexit wasn't about non EU migration for you, it was for some people.

The vote leave campaign knowingly lied to achieve their goal. (See also £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, and massive economic benefits).

As this is the Tory lies thread it's probably worth pointing out that the Prime Minister and most of the current cabinet were happy to spout these lies too.

I understand and agree with all that. But I think you missed my point probably because I didn't make it clear. Of course Farage and other Brexiteers exploited racism. But not all Brexiteers were racist (btw I was not a Brexiteer). Taking control of immigration in itself was not a racist idea. If so every nation in the world would be racist. Including the EU and its member states. As it happens Brexit has resulted in an immigration policy (whatever its faults) whilich does not so much overwhelmingly favour immigrants from predominantly white European states. Ironically I think Brexit has resulted in a less racist immigration policy. 

 

Anyway the thread has been fun ... watching those defending the use of gammon by jumping through the same hoops that many in Yorkshire County Cricket Club must have been doing in the last week or two.

[Alex Kintner]

[Beni]

I think it's probably time to consign the 'gammon' insult to history.

I'm old enough to remember when it wasn't considered racist to describe an embarrassed person as 'red-faced' we realised how offensive it was and anyone using that term nowadays would be rightly cancelled. Looking back it was unbelievably racist, and let's not even start on the Nazis who used to call farmers 'ruddy-cheeked'.  

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Beni

[Roxy Hearts]

On 13/11/2021 at 23:52, Francis Albert said:

Boris is a poor leader. Why don't we or they just let him go on?

Most of his inane ramblings are not shown most people know he's an idiot! 😀

[Cade]

Oliver Dowden trying to kid on that the process of appointing Paul Dacre as head of OFCOM isn't rigged:

 

"Well, in a corrupt nation, we'd have no process at all and just appoint him"

 

So, apparently, fixing a process is fine because at least there IS a process there to be fixed.

 

Welcome to Tory Britain, everybody!

[Unknown user]

18 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I understand and agree with all that. But I think you missed my point probably because I didn't make it clear. Of course Farage and other Brexiteers exploited racism. But not all Brexiteers were racist (btw I was not a Brexiteer). Taking control of immigration in itself was not a racist idea. If so every nation in the world would be racist. Including the EU and its member states. As it happens Brexit has resulted in an immigration policy (whatever its faults) whilich does not so much overwhelmingly favour immigrants from predominantly white European states. Ironically I think Brexit has resulted in a less racist immigration policy. 

 

Anyway the thread has been fun ... watching those defending the use of gammon by jumping through the same hoops that many in Yorkshire County Cricket Club must have been doing in the last week or two.

 

No one's claiming all brexiteers are racist, that's clearly ridiculous.

 

And how could gammon be racist, a black guy could be gammon if he was all porky and salty.

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, jonesy said:

My dear auld gran appears to have rating scale for black people, with those of a particularly dark hue being classed as having “been left too long in the oven”.

 

My granny's passed now, lovely woman too, but they were all just Darkies to her, Indians, Africans, didn't matter. But particularly dark skins would get "He's had a lick off the tar brush" followed by unashamed staring.

 

[Alex Kintner]

4 hours ago, Beni said:

I think it's probably time to consign the 'gammon' insult to history.

I'm old enough to remember when it wasn't considered racist to describe an embarrassed person as 'red-faced' we realised how offensive it was and anyone using that term nowadays would be rightly cancelled. Looking back it was unbelievably racist, and let's not even start on the Nazis who used to call farmers 'ruddy-cheeked'.  

 

 

I’m ashamed to admit I once commented on a relative’s FB post that they looked a bit ashen-faced when they were ill. Not sure whether I should turn myself in before HR get a hold of it and I lose my job. 😞

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Oliver Dowden trying to kid on that the process of appointing Paul Dacre as head of OFCOM isn't rigged:

 

"Well, in a corrupt nation, we'd have no process at all and just appoint him"

 

So, apparently, fixing a process is fine because at least there IS a process there to be fixed.

 

Welcome to Tory Britain, everybody!

 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

And, er, white.

You don't have to be white to be gammon

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

 

We've never lied to you before.

We're not lying now.

We won't lie again.

[WorldChampions1902]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

We've never lied to you before.

We're not lying now.

We won't lie again.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Could you produce much evidence of non-white people being called gammon as a slur?

 

I'm not gammon, my brother's not gammon, yet we're white.

 

Racism is negatively stereotyping based on race - I'm negatively stereotyping because of action.

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not gammon, my brother's not gammon, yet we're white.

 

Racism is negatively stereotyping based on race - I'm negatively stereotyping because of action.

Lack of skin care routine and buying moisturiser isn't a protected characteristic. 😉

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

The terms choc ice and banana, when directed at black people and Asian people respectively, would be considered racist by many (although not Rio Ferdinand!). Not all black people are choc ices, nor are all Chinese in the UK/USA bananas.
 

You’re stereotyping because of action, but the insult used to denote the stereotype is racially derived.

 

I'm not against the use of the term, BTW, just find it funny that supposedly progressive and sensitive people would use it.

 

Racially derived and racist aren't the same thing though

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, jonesy said:

When tossing out insults, I don’t think there’s much distinction these days. You mention yourself that your gran used to call everyone with dark skin a “darkie”. That in itself is racially-derived, but would certainly be deemed racist by any yardstick in 2021.

 

Can the gammon-utterers not just admit they like the expression because nobody has come up with something funnier to describe the demographic in question but that it probably offends the racially-sensitive rules by which most public discourse must be understandably managed these days? The reason it isn’t ‘called out’ is due to its target, rather than the nature of the insult itself. It’s not hard, and okay to admit it.

 

Gammon isn't racist Jonesy

[Alex Kintner]

16 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Stop swimming that Egyptian river, Smithee  

Give it a rest Jonesy. It’s a million miles off being a racial slur.