Sturgeon shelves plan for quick second Scottish independence referendum

[tcjambo]

Faroe Islands too to keep it geographically [emoji106]

Wasn't aware they had divided sovereignty  - maybe Nicola's negotiated a North -South split for them  to mimic Scotland and the rest of the UK!

[Gorgiewave]

Yes - are you on the same planet as the rest of us?

 

May I ask, have you lived in Madrid?

[Space Mackerel]

Wasn't aware they had divided sovereignty - maybe Nicola's negotiated a North -South split for them to mimic Scotland and the rest of the UK!

Maybe she has, who is to know?

You're still wittering on shite

[tcjambo]

Worse off? Explain?

Hard border at Berwick  stretching to Gretna. Passport control. Blockades on haulage. 68% of exports are sold to the rest of the UK IIRC correctly - are the French and Germans going to pick up the slack especially with these increased transport costs? If so why?

 

Your turn.........

[tcjambo]

May I ask, have you lived in Madrid?

Only for two days - celebrated Athletico winning the Spanish league in a pub in 2014. Sore head ever since

[tcjambo]

Maybe she has, who is to know?

You're still wittering on shite

From what I've read you're the expert

[jack D and coke]

Worth a read: https://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/

I'm really surprised you've posted that mate....i expect much better from you. That is a load of absolute pish.

I heard myself saying "did ye aye?" all the way through it[emoji1]

[Gorgiewave]

Only for two days - celebrated Athletico winning the Spanish league in a pub in 2014. Sore head ever since

 

May I ask the reason for your avatar?

[jack D and coke]

Hard border at Berwick stretching to Gretna. Passport control. Blockades on haulage. 68% of exports are sold to the rest of the UK IIRC correctly - are the French and Germans going to pick up the slack especially with these increased transport costs? If so why?

 

Your turn.........

Why would they? Can't stuff leave from Scottish ports if this is the road England wants to take it? Would we be so hostile the other way to the rUK for goods and services? People see England as this big bad hostile neighbour in the event of an Indy Scotland. This is our friend?? This is the neighbour that has called us subsidy junkies even when it was a lie? We want to remain with a nation who will nail us if we attempt self government?

[tcjambo]

May I ask the reason for your avatar?

I stayed in the street while I was there and loved the street name

[tcjambo]

Why would they? Can't stuff leave from Scottish ports if this is the road England wants to take it? Would we be so hostile the other way to the rUK for goods and services? People see England as this big bad hostile neighbour in the event of an Indy Scotland. This is our friend?? This is the neighbour that has called us subsidy junkies even when it was a lie? We want to remain with a nation who will nail us if we attempt self government?

There may not do but Nicola has done absolutely nothing to build bridges. If they Brexit and we didn't why should they do us any favours - after all the British govt may remember the example of the De Valera govt during WWII?

 

All independence  planning has to be on the basis of worst case scenario or it is deceitful and the SNP laughingly have called out the British govt for not having a Brexit strategy when SNP been in power for the better part of the decade and still couldn't agree what currency, what armed forces, financial plan etc . What a joke!

[jack D and coke]

There may not do but Nicola has done absolutely nothing to build bridges. If they Brexit and we didn't why should they do us any favours - after all the British govt may remember the example of the De Valera govt during WWII?

 

All independence planning has to be on the basis of worst case scenario or it is deceitful.

Yeah that's fair enough but I'm always taken aback by this premise that England will do everything in their power to screw us over. Yet we wish to remain under their apron doing what we're telt taking what they give us and being grateful for it. I don't like it. I don't like the way the SNP go about things either at times I'll agree with you there.

[Gorgiewave]

I stayed in the street while I was there and loved the street name

I love the tiled street names.

[tcjambo]

I love the tiled street names.

Loved Madrid .I want to take my wife back to the great wee caf? at the end of the road. Fab avocado salad and red wine. A great place to while away the day in the baking sun.

[tcjambo]

I love the tiled street names.

When were you there?

[tcjambo]

I'm really surprised you've posted that mate....i expect much better from you. That is a load of absolute pish.

I heard myself saying "did ye aye?" all the way through it[emoji1]

He did. The author is a personal friend of a journalist I know.

[jack D and coke]

There may not do but Nicola has done absolutely nothing to build bridges. If they Brexit and we didn't why should they do us any favours - after all the British govt may remember the example of the De Valera govt during WWII?

 

All independence planning has to be on the basis of worst case scenario or it is deceitful and the SNP laughingly have called out the British govt for not having a Brexit strategy when SNP been in power for the better part of the decade and still couldn't agree what currency, what armed forces, financial plan etc . What a joke!

The currency one cost them I agree.

But see Ruthy Davidson during indyref "demanding" the SNP and Salmond declared all the intentions and their plans to be fair to the electorate but then utterly contradicting herself last week saying Theresa May is correct to keep her cards close to her chest so as not to give anything away before the negotiations start with EU leaders....so which is it? The SNP must lay it out in minute detail beforehand but the British government can suit themselves? I'm fairly sure I seen plans for an armed forces myself too btw..

 

 

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[aussieh]

The Labour position is very shaky and not a game-changer, for the following reasons.....................

 

If Labour switch to Indy, they will lose the vote of the current Labour voters who are Unionists. Those voters would have no choice but to move to the Tories.

 

The only place Labour would gain votes is therefore from the SNP, but its unlikely that significant numbers of SNP voters will switch to Labour.

 

So SLAb would run the risk of a massive drop in voter support as the Pro-Indy voters would be split between SLAb/SNP whilst the Anti-Indy would all go to the Tories.

 

Labour wont take that risk.

you never know, if we all get forced into drinking gin by our overlords, we might all get Stockholm syndrome.

[aussieh]

The Labour position is very shaky and not a game-changer, for the following reasons.....................

 

If Labour switch to Indy, they will lose the vote of the current Labour voters who are Unionists. Those voters would have no choice but to move to the Tories.

 

The only place Labour would gain votes is therefore from the SNP, but its unlikely that significant numbers of SNP voters will switch to Labour.

 

So SLAb would run the risk of a massive drop in voter support as the Pro-Indy voters would be split between SLAb/SNP whilst the Anti-Indy would all go to the Tories.

 

Labour wont take that risk.

You've had all the labour(Red tory) unionist votes you're gonna get.

Real labour voting tory

[aussieh]

People in Scotland need to think of independence as partition of the British Isles because effectively that it is what it would be . Only three islands in the whole world that I am aware of have separate sovereign governments - Papua & New Guinea , Dominican Republic & Haiti and NI and Eire and none of these are disadvantaged geographically as badly as Scotland would be with independence and a hostile southern neighbour.

ahahahahahhah

[aussieh]

Awwwww, the wee no voting pensioners are no getting their pension.

Nae luck

[deesidejambo]

You've had all the labour(Red tory) unionist votes you're gonna get.

Real labour voting tory

But the fact remains that if Labour switched to Indy they would not gain many new voters but they certainly would lose some. Most of Govan for an example.

 

So they won't take that chance.

[Space Mackerel]

Hard border at Berwick  stretching to Gretna. Passport control. Blockades on haulage. 68% of exports are sold to the rest of the UK IIRC correctly - are the French and Germans going to pick up the slack especially with these increased transport costs? If so why?

 

Your turn.........

So, this border is going to built with razor wire, machine gun nests, land mines with troops staring eye to eye like the Korean one in your eyes?

 

That's funny, because, as you know, this situation is going to arise fairly soon between Ireland and NI and May has said she says can't see border controls any different from what they are now.

 

Your turn.

[Space Mackerel]

There may not do but Nicola has done absolutely nothing to build bridges. If they Brexit and we didn't why should they do us any favours - after all the British govt may remember the example of the De Valera govt during WWII?

 

All independence planning has to be on the basis of worst case scenario or it is deceitful and the SNP laughingly have called out the British govt for not having a Brexit strategy when SNP been in power for the better part of the decade and still couldn't agree what currency, what armed forces, financial plan etc . What a joke!

Perhaps you can tell us what currency, armed forces and financial plan the U.K. will have for the next 5 years then?

 

I'll start you off.

 

1. The pound

[Thunderstruck]

The currency one cost them I agree.

But see Ruthy Davidson during indyref "demanding" the SNP and Salmond declared all the intentions and their plans to be fair to the electorate but then utterly contradicting herself last week saying Theresa May is correct to keep her cards close to her chest so as not to give anything away before the negotiations start with EU leaders....so which is it? The SNP must lay it out in minute detail beforehand but the British government can suit themselves? I'm fairly sure I seen plans for an armed forces myself too btw..

 

 

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Two entirely different situations.

 

The first was a sales prospectus - "Vote Yes and live in a land of milk and honey with vast and inexhaustible oil wealth".

 

The second is a position where the divorce is in process and negotiations are about to start.

[Space Mackerel]

Two entirely different situations.

 

The first was a sales prospectus - "Vote Yes and live in a land of milk and honey with vast and inexhaustible oil wealth".

 

The second is a position where the divorce is in process and negotiations are about to start.

Utter nonsense yet again from you.

[jack D and coke]

Two entirely different situations.

 

The first was a sales prospectus - "Vote Yes and live in a land of milk and honey with vast and inexhaustible oil wealth".

 

The second is a position where the divorce is in process and negotiations are about to start.

Personally I don't see an awful lot of difference. I don't think I ever seen this inexhaustible wealth line myself either but it's a line that the No side battered everybody over the head with at the time and are still trotting it out. It's tired man give it up.

And Davidson has done some slavering this week....the NHS one where she basically kicked her own parties arse was comedy gold.

 

 

 

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[JamboX2]

I'm really surprised you've posted that mate....i expect much better from you. That is a load of absolute pish.

I heard myself saying "did ye aye?" all the way through it[emoji1]

Better than the wee ginger dug we've been getting lately!

 

Plus, it relates to a few points discussed here.

[JamboX2]

As a matter of interest, why doesn't the U.K. shove Trident in Liverpool docks?

Because it's not as geographically as good a base as the Clyde.

 

Convoys marshalled in the Clyde in eorld war two due to its ease of access to the Atlantic and it's sheltered deep water.

 

Same applies for Trident.

[JamboX2]

The currency one cost them I agree.

But see Ruthy Davidson during indyref "demanding" the SNP and Salmond declared all the intentions and their plans to be fair to the electorate but then utterly contradicting herself last week saying Theresa May is correct to keep her cards close to her chest so as not to give anything away before the negotiations start with EU leaders....so which is it? The SNP must lay it out in minute detail beforehand but the British government can suit themselves? I'm fairly sure I seen plans for an armed forces myself too btw..

 

 

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Huge difference. Salmond would've done likewise during any post Yes win negotiations. And a lot of people, May included, called on Brexiteers to detail their plans if they won.

 

We are at different stages of this process. The fact is pre-referendum date allows for openness through vague statements. Post-referendum you do need an element of cards to the chest to negotiate effectively.

[Space Mackerel]

Because it's not as geographically as good a base as the Clyde.

 

Convoys marshalled in the Clyde in eorld war two due to its ease of access to the Atlantic and it's sheltered deep water.

 

Same applies for Trident.

Where are they going to be based when Scotland gets independence then? The US?

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Huge difference. Salmond would've done likewise during any post Yes win negotiations. And a lot of people, May included, called on Brexiteers to detail their plans if they won.

 

We are at different stages of this process. The fact is pre-referendum date allows for openness through vague statements. Post-referendum you do need an element of cards to the chest to negotiate effectively.

Face facts, Brexit was won on pure lies and this "take back control" ditty. If you're saying the independence argument is the same then call the Brexit one too.

 

 

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[JamboX2]

Personally I don't see an awful lot of difference. I don't think I ever seen this inexhaustible wealth line myself either but it's a line that the No side battered everybody over the head with at the time and are still trotting it out. It's tired man give it up.

And Davidson has done some slavering this week....the NHS one where she basically kicked her own parties arse was comedy gold.

 

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I think the article I linked - thiugh you weren't a fan - illustrates the first point well. They, Yes and the SNP, all said it was going to allow for all these things - one aspect was increased public spending.

 

Secondly, we need to understand thst politics is grey and with devolution will come different aims for how the nhs is run across the UK between UK Tories and Scottish ones or UK Labour and Welsh Labour. That is only natural. It also allows for us to learn closely from different choices. John Swinney's latest education plan is a mirror to the academy school plan as at it's core is independence of schools from councils. Devolution allows scope for that process and development of policy and variance.

 

Rather than cynically sneer at this we should cherish it.

[JamboX2]

Face facts, Brexit was won on pure lies and this "take back control" ditty. If you're saying the independence argument is the same then call the Brexit one too.

 

 

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I'm not disputing that point. Both campaigns were divisive with narrow arguments factored around spending increases on everything with undeliverable promises chucked in (currency union and closing borders).

[JamboX2]

Where are they going to be based when Scotland gets independence then? The US?

 

 

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I think the Scottish government would do a deal here. Want in NATO? Be a good ally and don't undermine the entire alliance's nuclear defence posture.

 

Big cash pay every year to rent Faslane too. Great stuff. Don't doubt the hard realities warping principles here.

 

Faslane in an independent, nuclear free Scotland is also a poor place for a conventional navy base. Scotland's needed area of defence is east coast facing towards here oil fields, the North Sea access to the Baltic and the Northern Faroes gap. Not Faslane and the Atlantic.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Face facts, Brexit was won on pure lies and this "take back control" ditty. If you're saying the independence argument is the same then call the Brexit one too.

 

 

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Yes obviously aren't very good liars then.

 

The problem with comparing Brexit to the Scottish referendum is that Brexit didn't have a "White Paper" equivalent as there was various statuses offered as potential exit statuses, like the Norway option. Those would be an anathema to a UKIP isolationist, for example.

 

The SNP, by contrast, produced a White Paper that was motherhood and apple pie, and clearly outwith their gift to implement. Maybe the lesson is to campaign for independence first and negotiate afterwards.

[Thunderstruck]

Personally I don't see an awful lot of difference. I don't think I ever seen this inexhaustible wealth line myself either but it's a line that the No side battered everybody over the head with at the time and are still trotting it out. It's tired man give it up.

And Davidson has done some slavering this week....the NHS one where she basically kicked her own parties arse was comedy gold.

 

 

 

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I think you need to go and have a listen to some of the nonsense spouted by Salmond. Type "Salmond claims on oil wealth" into your Search Engine of choice and you will find plenty to consider. You could get the same misinformation from the televised debates.

 

For example, this is a line used by him on several occasions:

 

?We put forward a reasonable oil forecast of $100 a barrel and if you do these two things then what tells you is the remaining value of the resource is ?1.5 trillion.

 

?Or to put it into everyday terms, that?s ?300,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.?

 

Two things wrong with that -

 

1. The estimate of reserves is grossly inflated and takes no account of whether or not the reserve is recoverable at a given price. Much of what remains is very marginal with a huge cost of recovery.

 

2. The price quoted is the sale price and not the tax or royalty revenue. After cost of production and such as capital allowances, tax revenue is a small fraction of the spot price.

 

It's part of the Greed and Grievance agenda.

 

If you think my sources are questionable, you might want to consider that even Sturgeon has admitted that the oil income figures were wrong.

[Space Mackerel]

I think the Scottish government would do a deal here. Want in NATO? Be a good ally and don't undermine the entire alliance's nuclear defence posture.

 

Big cash pay every year to rent Faslane too. Great stuff. Don't doubt the hard realities warping principles here.

 

Faslane in an independent, nuclear free Scotland is also a poor place for a conventional navy base. Scotland's needed area of defence is east coast facing towards here oil fields, the North Sea access to the Baltic and the Northern Faroes gap. Not Faslane and the Atlantic.

Good answer, I can see that happening too in the short to medium term regarding Faslane. Suits both parties to the ground. I'm not a rabid CND supporter by any means.

 

What with all these oil fields in the North Sea having multi national links, then the defence would come under many countries interests, not just ours.

 

Strategically, Scotland is very important to NATO and its allies.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Yes obviously aren't very good liars then.

 

The problem with comparing Brexit to the Scottish referendum is that Brexit didn't have a "White Paper" equivalent as there was various statuses offered as potential exit statuses, like the Norway option. Those would be an anathema to a UKIP isolationist, for example.

 

The SNP, by contrast, produced a White Paper that was motherhood and apple pie, and clearly outwith their gift to implement. Maybe the lesson is to campaign for independence first and negotiate afterwards.

Brexit don't even have a White Paper 3 months after.

 

Let's face facts, the Brexit referendum was won on immigration, nothing else. All the options that are on the table for the UK getting back into the Single Market would need to allow freedom of movement for EU nationals.

 

It's a busted flush.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Double post ****ed up edit

[Space Mackerel]

So as Japan issues warning letters to the U.K. regarding Brexit, Scotland has this message from them.

 

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9361/japanese-delegation-head-scotland-snp-makes-play-international-friendships

[jambo lodge]

The obsession that some on here have with independence is mind numbing. Nothing like the blind leading the blind. The irony of wanting independence from the UK and then giving up sovereignty to Europe is simply lost on them.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Brexit don't even have a White Paper 3 months after.

 

Let's face facts, the Brexit referendum was won on immigration, nothing else. All the options that are on the table for the UK getting back into the Single Market would need to allow freedom of movement for EU nationals.

 

It's a busted flush.

 

 

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If Brexit was won on immigration, then those who voted in that fashion will be disappointed.

[tcjambo]

Perhaps you can tell us what currency, armed forces and financial plan the U.K. will have for the next 5 years then?

 

I'll start you off.

 

1. The pound

It's all set out in the Queens Speech - read it yourself.

 

How about you answering the original question I posed "what is fundamentally different between Scotland and other component parts of the UK? Could some Independence lover out there please just answer that?"

[tcjambo]

The obsession that some on here have with independence is mind numbing. Nothing like the blind leading the blind. The irony of wanting independence from the UK and then giving up sovereignty to Europe is simply lost on them.

True but they have a large number of the "hard of thinking"

[Seymour M Hersh]

Do you live in Scotland?

 

Do you live on planet Earth?

[jack D and coke]

I think you need to go and have a listen to some of the nonsense spouted by Salmond. Type "Salmond claims on oil wealth" into your Search Engine of choice and you will find plenty to consider. You could get the same misinformation from the televised debates.

 

For example, this is a line used by him on several occasions:

 

?We put forward a reasonable oil forecast of $100 a barrel and if you do these two things then what tells you is the remaining value of the resource is ?1.5 trillion.

 

?Or to put it into everyday terms, that?s ?300,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.?

 

Two things wrong with that -

 

1. The estimate of reserves is grossly inflated and takes no account of whether or not the reserve is recoverable at a given price. Much of what remains is very marginal with a huge cost of recovery.

 

2. The price quoted is the sale price and not the tax or royalty revenue. After cost of production and such as capital allowances, tax revenue is a small fraction of the spot price.

 

It's part of the Greed and Grievance agenda.

 

If you think my sources are questionable, you might want to consider that even Sturgeon has admitted that the oil income figures were wrong.

Politician in bullshit shock eh[emoji1]

Mibbe you missed Davey C promising ?200 billion bonus for No votes and all the nonsense from both sides before brexit.

Greed and grievance? Brexit again??

Just SNPbad tho eh[emoji1]

 

 

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[Adam Murray]

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1367364-independence-rally-to-mark-referendum-anniversary-held/

 

 

 

I wonder if any of the Indy campaigners from kickback were there.

 

Looks like apathy is setting in, and that people are perhaps getting a bit sick of it all.

[JamboX2]

Good answer, I can see that happening too in the short to medium term regarding Faslane. Suits both parties to the ground. I'm not a rabid CND supporter by any means.

 

What with all these oil fields in the North Sea having multi national links, then the defence would come under many countries interests, not just ours.

 

Strategically, Scotland is very important to NATO and its allies.

 

 

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Yes, to a degree. But not to the extent we can rely on others to provide our defence needs. We'd still need to spend at least 4% of spending to get us up to speed on the defence then 2% thereon under NATO obligations. It's a big sum of money. Some other things would need cut to afford it.

 

Equally, our importance is diminishing as the middle east and med grows more unstable and America looks increasingly east.

 

Scotland will need to bear the cost of her defence needs.

[Arnold Rothstein]

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1367364-independence-rally-to-mark-referendum-anniversary-held/

 

 

 

I wonder if any of the Indy campaigners from kickback were there.

 

Looks like apathy is setting in, and that people are perhaps getting a bit sick of it all.

200 people? Hahaha