The 2015 General Election Megathread

[Boris]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/having-sold-rbs-shares-for-1bn-less-than-he-bought-them-for-osborne-the-economic-genius-strikes-again-10444254.html

 

It's stuff like the story above that made me vote Yes. The above needs addressed and until Westminster does, I'll vote Yes again. Doing so, it seems to me, is the only option.

[jambos are go!]

Given that the SNP do not use any tax raising powers all this money came from Westminster via the Barnett Formula. In any case it will in true political style be old money in a new package,

 

Over the last 70 years what have the SNP done to match and surpass the creation by Labour of the NHS? 

Edited August 10, 2015 by jambos are go!

[Thunderstruck]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/having-sold-rbs-shares-for-1bn-less-than-he-bought-them-for-osborne-the-economic-genius-strikes-again-10444254.html

 

It's stuff like the story above that made me vote Yes. The above needs addressed and until Westminster does, I'll vote Yes again. Doing so, it seems to me, is the only option.

There are other examples:

 

Take 1 shipyard.

Deprive said shipyard of business by buying publically owned ships from foreign yards.

Wait until said shipyard goes into Admin.

Send top politician to said shipyard.

Announce that Party Contributor will rescue said shipyard.

Announce that future orders for publically owned ships will be placed with yard now owned by party contributor.

It was no doubt serendipitous that this all happened a week before a major electoral event.

[aussieh]

There are other examples:

 

Take 1 shipyard.

Deprive said shipyard of business by buying publically owned ships from foreign yards.

Wait until said shipyard goes into Admin.

Send top politician to said shipyard.

Announce that Party Contributor will rescue said shipyard.

Announce that future orders for publically owned ships will be placed with yard now owned by party contributor.

It was no doubt serendipitous that this all happened a week before a major electoral event.

Take one Royal Mail and one RBS,

you know the rest.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/having-sold-rbs-shares-for-1bn-less-than-he-bought-them-for-osborne-the-economic-genius-strikes-again-10444254.html

 

It's stuff like the story above that made me vote Yes. The above needs addressed and until Westminster does, I'll vote Yes again. Doing so, it seems to me, is the only option.

Had this been an SNP MP's decision this unionists would be off the scale seething. But seen as it's not this is acceptable.

[maroonlegions]

What strange toilet paper.

 

 

[TheMaganator]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/having-sold-rbs-shares-for-1bn-less-than-he-bought-them-for-osborne-the-economic-genius-strikes-again-10444254.html

 

 

It's stuff like the story above that made me vote Yes. The above needs addressed and until Westminster does, I'll vote Yes again. Doing so, it seems to me, is the only option.

Why on earth would the actions of one party make you vote Yes?

 

Would an independent Scotland be immune to poor economic decisions? Are our politicians somehow better than our English counterparts?

 

I don't get this sort of argument at all.

[JAYEL]

Now now JAYEL, we're not allowed to highlight the good aspects of what they have achieved in government. Tow the line.

 

Sorry i forgot

 

 

I meant to say they are running the country into the ground

[Jarhead]

Labour didn't lose in Scotland because it was pro-Union per se, it was because it took voters for granted and failed to clearly define a left of centre socialist-lite case for the union out on the streets that its core vote could sense hope in and buy into. Those are two very different things.

imo your 2 sentences are more on the mark than the linked opinion piece.

[JAYEL]

That's more like it. #SNPBad.

 

 

Grrrrr bad nats doing stuff

[Boris]

Why on earth would the actions of one party make you vote Yes?

 

Would an independent Scotland be immune to poor economic decisions? Are our politicians somehow better than our English counterparts?

 

I don't get this sort of argument at all.

It's not one party though Mag. Westminster politics are so narrow, with no criticism of neoliberalism that it is now the de facto starting point. Almost sacred cow. Westminster or rather the main political parties are unwilling to challenge it, yet it is, imo, responsible for things that I think are wrong.

 

Now, I may be of the left, and spout Mark or Engels, but I'm savvy enough to realise that if we are to have a system of Capitalism, it should be one that benefits society as a whole. Let's call it Social Capitalism and I reckon that could be a very groovy concept that would benefit more people than the current system. And I don't mean Blairism!

[TheMaganator]

It's not one party though Mag. Westminster politics are so narrow, with no criticism of neoliberalism that it is now the de facto starting point. Almost sacred cow. Westminster or rather the main political parties are unwilling to challenge it, yet it is, imo, responsible for things that I think are wrong.

 

Now, I may be of the left, and spout Mark or Engels, but I'm savvy enough to realise that if we are to have a system of Capitalism, it should be one that benefits society as a whole. Let's call it Social Capitalism and I reckon that could be a very groovy concept that would benefit more people than the current system. And I don't mean Blairism!

But who is challenging it in Scotland? Certainly none of the main parties in Scotland. Or is this just another 'everything will be better if were independent because of, you know...' arguments.

 

I like the sound of your social(ist) capatalism but I'm not sure it'll catch on.

[Jarhead]

Had this been an SNP MP's decision this unionists would be off the scale seething. But seen as it's not this is acceptable.

What a strange thing to say, nationalists don't have a unique monopoly on being upset by bum deals.

Osborne being an arse isn't a valid enough reason to break up the UK.

[Boris]

But who is challenging it in Scotland? Certainly none of the main parties in Scotland. Or is this just another 'everything will be better if were independent because of, you know...' arguments.

 

I like the sound of your social(ist) capatalism but I'm not sure it'll catch on.

No one, including the SNP! If Westminster refuses to modernise and democratise then I'll vote for the alternative, even if it is on a wing and a prayer!

 

Och, they'll all be espousing Boris's theory of social Capitalism soon...unfortunately probably the Bullingdon Boris's interpretation.

[Boris]

What a strange thing to say, nationalists don't have a unique monopoly on being upset by bum deals.

Osborne being an arse isn't a valid enough reason to break up the UK.

But the fact the Westminster system gives us such an arse is highly concerning. Therefore if offered something more democratic....

[Jarhead]

But the fact the Westminster system gives us such an arse is highly concerning. Therefore if offered something more democratic....

All political systems have a habit of plums getting into positions of power. A separate Scotland wouldn't be immune to that.

[Malinga the Swinga]

But the fact the Westminster system gives us such an arse is highly concerning. Therefore if offered something more democratic....

the Scottish Parliament and SNP gave us Kenny MacAskill and I would argue that he is the biggest arse of any politician (and a Hibby to boot). Scotland produced and sent Eric Joyce to parliament, another arse of the highest order so don't think Osborne is the worst by any means.

[Boris]

the Scottish Parliament and SNP gave us Kenny MacAskill and I would argue that he is the biggest arse of any politician (and a Hibby to boot). Scotland produced and sent Eric Joyce to parliament, another arse of the highest order so don't think Osborne is the worst by any means.

Did either lose the people ?1bn?

 

Not saying they weren't shite politicians, but...

[Boris]

All political systems have a habit of plums getting into positions of power. A separate Scotland wouldn't be immune to that.

Yes, but other political systems have checks and balances to hold those plums to account.

 

Westminster is not fit for purpose.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Did either lose the people ?1bn?

Not saying they weren't shite politicians, but...

mighty have lost us ?1bln, I would argue he had no choice as RBS has to be returned to private ownership or it will never end draining taxpayer, but then again, didn't release a man convicted of Scotland's biggest mass murder either. (Before the conspiracy brigade come on, he was convicted and no one else has been). What was worse? I know what my answer would be.

[Boris]

mighty have lost us ?1bln, I would argue he had no choice as RBS has to be returned to private ownership or it will never end draining taxpayer, but then again, didn't release a man convicted of Scotland's biggest mass murder either. (Before the conspiracy brigade come on, he was convicted and no one else has been). What was worse? I know what my answer would be.

Ted Heath.

 

Margaret Thatcher

 

Leon Brittan

 

Wonder who connects them?

 

So the Libyan boy got let out, You almost admit yourself that you don't think he did it. Justice can get it wrong, Guildford Four and Birmingham Six are evidence of that.

 

The balance sheets won't lie though and after the controversy of the privatisation of the Royal Mail (undervalued) and now this, it would appear that the Chancellor is, at best, not the shrewdest, at worst, not working for the benefit of the people.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Ted Heath.

Margaret Thatcher

Leon Brittan

Wonder who connects them?

So the Libyan boy got let out, You almost admit yourself that you don't think he did it. Justice can get it wrong, Guildford Four and Birmingham Six are evidence of that.

The balance sheets won't lie though and after the controversy of the privatisation of the Royal Mail (undervalued) and now this, it would appear that the Chancellor is, at best, not the shrewdest, at worst, not working for the benefit of the people.

no, I am happy that he was convicted and under our SNP government, they released him without a second thought.

 

In Osbornes case, he was cleaning up the Labour parties mess that Gordon Brown created with his financial mismanagement. How long did you expect him to hold onto a loss making business that shows no sign of recovery and is still struggling to get any management that can turn it around. Talking of not being shrewd, wasn't it the same Gordon Brown who sold our gold at a fraction of what it was worth, but do we just forget that because it doesn't suit the anti Tory agenda.

 

Still maintain Thatcher was one of this countries greatest leaders, but never took to Brittan. In that same way, also admired Benn and to a lesser degree Foot, but that was in the day when politicians actually stood for what they believed in and wouldn't seek their families for a vote. Just about remember Heath but claim I am really to young to judge his political career. Not getting mixed up with conspiracy rubbish.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Malinga the Swinga

[Psychedelicropcircle]

mighty have lost us ?1bln, I would argue he had no choice as RBS has to be returned to private ownership or it will never end draining taxpayer, but then again, didn't release a man convicted of Scotland's biggest mass murder either. (Before the conspiracy brigade come on, he was convicted and no one else has been). What was worse? I know what my answer would be.

How's shares already bought draining the tax payer ? Underselling them is draining the tax payer surely?

[Psychedelicropcircle]

If it helps malinga I'm willing to buy your ?10er notes for ?5ers!

[Malinga the Swinga]

How's shares already bought draining the tax payer ? Underselling them is draining the tax payer surely?

he hasn't sold all of them. If you think that they are undervalued, why not buy some and see if you can make a profit. If the share price goes up, the government still has a load of shares it can sell.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

They were sold under market value that's undervalued and average Joes like me were excused from the sale. any further forward wi the 10ers for 5ers situ?

[JamboX2]

I suppose the creation of the Welfare state, the creation of the NHS, the establishment of education to the age of 16 for all, end of the 11 plus across the UK, the development of trade union rights, slum clearances, human rights acts, devolution, maternity and paternity rights being enshrined, the social chapter being enacted and the minimum wage meant hee-haw?

 

The fact is the Labour Party and the SNP have both done a lot of good. I'd chuck in free tuition, smoking ban and free personal care from a Scottish perspective for Labour. Ending endowment and guaranteeing free bus passes for the elderly for the SNP to my list to that.

 

Doesn't mean the SNP are holier and thou and not right to be challenged. Equally, Labour isn't all bad and a hell of a lot the SNP are "protecting" the Labour Party enacted and established. Are the SNP the heir to Labour then?

[JamboX2]

Ted Heath.

 

Margaret Thatcher

 

Leon Brittan

 

Wonder who connects them?

 

So the Libyan boy got let out, You almost admit yourself that you don't think he did it. Justice can get it wrong, Guildford Four and Birmingham Six are evidence of that.

 

The balance sheets won't lie though and after the controversy of the privatisation of the Royal Mail (undervalued) and now this, it would appear that the Chancellor is, at best, not the shrewdest, at worst, not working for the benefit of the people.

On point 1 - The decision to release Meghrahi was a travesty of justice. He was set to be tried with a swathe of new evidence to show he was a pawn. That evidence now cannot be released to the public. The decision to release him was a play into American hands rather than a get it up you like it was played at the time. Meghrahi should've been kept incarcerated. Not because he done it but so he could have justice and appeal.

 

On point 2 - The two things you talk about were always going for less. If they didn't, they wouldn't be sellable. Sadly that's the case. I think RBS should've been restructured and broken up tbh. But the Royal Mail is a national asset and should be kept a nationalised or part nationalised entity. RBS is different, but the sale has been poorly handled.

[Gizmo]

mighty have lost us ?1bln, I would argue he had no choice as RBS has to be returned to private ownership or it will never end draining taxpayer, but then again, didn't release a man convicted of Scotland's biggest mass murder either. (Before the conspiracy brigade come on, he was convicted and no one else has been). What was worse? I know what my answer would be.

This again? The UK had the same rules as Scotland in respect of compassionate release - and Cameron & Obama were privately very relieved that Scotland could take the heat for Magrahi's release, avoiding a lengthy retrial. Mackaskill is undoubtedly a poor politician but he was a patsy here.

[aussieh]

Why on earth would the actions of one party make you vote Yes?

 

Would an independent Scotland be immune to poor economic decisions? Are our politicians somehow better than our English counterparts?

 

I don't get this sort of argument at all.

Not at all mags, but we could remove them from office, in an indy Scotland. We cant to touch WM.

Powerless.

[GBJambo]

Not at all mags, but we could remove them from office, in an indy Scotland. We cant to touch WM.

Powerless.

The snp are making poor decisions and they cannot be removed from office.

[Jarhead]

Not at all mags, but we could remove them from office, in an indy Scotland. We cant to touch WM.

Powerless.

At last, you've said at least 1 thing that is correct, in terms of Westminster the snp is powerless.

We went from 12 (iirc?) Mps in government to 1.

Snp are merely shouting from the sidelines.

 

In terms of removing Mps, using first past the post, the Scottish electorate managed to remove the vast bulk of sitting mps.

In holyrood elections if the first past the post candidates are also placed top of their lists (snp done this effectively, labour didn't) unless there is a complete collapse in their vote it is almost impossible to remove the highest profile figures of the ruling party.

[aussieh]

The snp are making poor decisions and they cannot be removed from office.

Oh they can, and they will after their purpose is achieved.

[Stuart Lyon]

Independence supporters split with the formation of the Scottish Independence Party - interesting development! Not all SNP supporters/members are happy campers.

[Boris]

At last, you've said at least 1 thing that is correct, in terms of Westminster the snp is powerless.

We went from 12 (iirc?) Mps in government to 1.

Snp are merely shouting from the sidelines.

In terms of removing Mps, using first past the post, the Scottish electorate managed to remove the vast bulk of sitting mps.

In holyrood elections if the first past the post candidates are also placed top of their lists (snp done this effectively, labour didn't) unless there is a complete collapse in their vote it is almost impossible to remove the highest profile figures of the ruling party.

I think the point is being able to elect a different government, which can be done at Holyrood, but can't at Westminster.

[aussieh]

At last, you've said at least 1 thing that is correct, in terms of Westminster the snp is powerless.

We went from 12 (iirc?) Mps in government to 1.

Snp are merely shouting from the sidelines.

 

In terms of removing Mps, using first past the post, the Scottish electorate managed to remove the vast bulk of sitting mps.

In holyrood elections if the first past the post candidates are also placed top of their lists (snp done this effectively, labour didn't) unless there is a complete collapse in their vote it is almost impossible to remove the highest profile figures of the ruling party.

Ruth Davidson?.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Independence supporters split with the formation of the Scottish Independence Party - interesting development! Not all SNP supporters/members are happy campers.

Some talk that this new party is a plant orchestrated from GCHQ something to do with routers and the IP address being similar .

A lot of people have said that they were blocked when asking serious questions on the Facebook page .

Me I don't think so just a few folk which won't amount to anything substantial .

Always been wee pro independence parties like the Scottish Jacobite party or the free Scotland party

Edited August 11, 2015 by ToadKiller Dog

[reaths17]

no, I am happy that he was convicted and under our SNP government, they released him without a second thought.

 

In Osbornes case, he was cleaning up the Labour parties mess that Gordon Brown created with his financial mismanagement. How long did you expect him to hold onto a loss making business that shows no sign of recovery and is still struggling to get any management that can turn it around. Talking of not being shrewd, wasn't it the same Gordon Brown who sold our gold at a fraction of what it was worth, but do we just forget that because it doesn't suit the anti Tory agenda.

 

Still maintain Thatcher was one of this countries greatest leaders, but never took to Brittan. In that same way, also admired Benn and to a lesser degree Foot, but that was in the day when politicians actually stood for what they believed in and wouldn't seek their families for a vote. Just about remember Heath but claim I am really to young to judge his political career. Not getting mixed up with conspiracy rubbish.

Why does this keep cropping up, "Gordon browns financial incompetence" eh

 

he didn't/couldn't create a global financial meltdown not yesterday/today or tomorrow, when the music stopped he was the patsy without a chair.

the meltdown didn't happen over the whole world the day brown took power, it had been a long time in the making and was in full swing when brown got trapped into taking the flack.

 

brown sold the gold undervalue when left with the shitty end of the stick and is a tnuc thatcher is your hero and she sold the country to her best pal's for washers to spite the people.

 

she was the 1 who started turning the nhs into a business where profit margins became more important than the health care, she was the 1 who created private care for those who could afford it, as she had made the nhs was no longer fit for purpose.

 

community spirit was destroyed by Thatcherism to such an extent that somebody lay dead for years and nobody in his community even noticed.

 

from the plaudits she had at her retirement, thing's have started to take a different turn, it may be a further while before the full extent of her misdemeanors come to light but they will. Cyril smith and others weren't protected under browns watch.

[TheMaganator]

Some talk that this new party is a plant orchestrated from GCHQ something to do with routers and the IP address being similar .

A lot of people have said that they were blocked when asking serious questions on the Facebook page .

Me I don't think so just a few folk which won't amount to anything substantial .

Always been wee pro independence parties like the Scottish Jacobite party or the free Scotland party

I heard this rubbish as well. The new group is likely a few lone loons.

 

The mi5 accusations are pretty embarrassing tbh.

 

Blocking people who ask serious questions is a well-known nationalist trait on social media - so it isn't surprising that it is being used by a bunch of nationalists.

[aussieh]

I heard this rubbish as well. The new group is likely a few lone loons.

 

The mi5 accusations are pretty embarrassing tbh.

 

Blocking people who ask serious questions is a well-known nationalist trait on social media - so it isn't surprising that it is being used by a bunch of nationalists.

Brit nats, common behaviour.

[Jarhead]

I think the point is being able to elect a different government, which can be done at Holyrood, but can't at Westminster.

Since devolution, Scotland has had 3 different parties taste power with 2 different combinations of government.

In the same period the UK has had 3 different parties taste power with 3 different combinations of government.

 

What will be interesting is if the greens get enough list votes to push the snp back into a minority position.

Would they risk their, ahem 'discipline' , to allow potentially dissenting voices into government?

[aussieh]

Since devolution, Scotland has had 3 different parties taste power with 2 different combinations of government.

In the same period the UK has had 3 different parties taste power with 3 different combinations of government.

 

What will be interesting is if the greens get enough list votes to push the snp back into a minority position.

Would they risk their, ahem 'discipline' , to allow potentially dissenting voices into government?

I would to see Patrick Harvey in Government.

[HaymarketJambo]

The problem we have in Scotland is that all the better together parties are in a mess, and that's why the SNP are away head, that's not the fault of the SNP, that's the fault of the other parties been a total shambles and not challenging the SNP on their record?

 

What I would say is that I think the SNP have done quite well in Government, there still needs to be improvement, but for party to be in power in Holyrood for nearly 10 years and to be as popular as they are is something else, the Westminster elections say's it all when they wiped out the Labour heartlands and took seats in the Borders, that was a great achievement for a party in power, ok it wasn't a vote on their record at Holyrood, but to get 56 MP's that takes some beating.                

[JamboX2]

I would to see Patrick Harvey in Government.

I will guarantee you that SNP big wigs will not allow him near a ministerial car. Harvie is not well liked for not following the SNP lead during the referendum. He withdrew the Greens from Yes Scotland early doors only to come back when concessions on how Yes Scotland was to be run were given. Not to mention his torpedoing the "Yes Alliance" electoral pact after the September result.

 

Harvie is a man I like. On social policy, localism, democracy and accountability he's excellent. He'd be a standout welfare, housing or health minister. But he's got a back bone and won't compromise his beliefs. Therefore the SNP have and will continue to struggle to work with him and his party.

 

As per the failed SNP budget in 2008/09 showed. The Greens are small but won't back down in a fight.

[dc-jambo]

The Scottish Independence Party story is a weird fake: looking at the Scotsman story, for example, there is no party, no names given, no details, nothing that a vaguely-professional journalist would require to actually write a story saying that the thing exists.

 

Whoever did the faking was, I suspect, making a rather feeble attempt to deflect attention from yesterday's striking TNS poll, that gives the SNP 62% Labour 20% Conservatives 12%.

 

But the fine detail of that poll is well worth a second look: see http://www.tns-bmrb.co.uk/home

 

Check out the '18-24 years old, certain to vote' outcome, for example: SNP 86%, Lab 5%, Tories 5%. 

 

 

 

 

[TheMaganator]

There are names in the link I posted previously. 

 

Another good piece from Massie on the SNP enjoying power without responsibility. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2015/08/nicola-sturgeons-bandwagon-rolls-on-a-new-poll-puts-the-snp-on-62/ The poll shows another landslide for the SNP despite a large portion of their support thinking that they are not doing a good job. This will be deflected by saying that the other parties are shite - however, is voting for the SNP despite their poor record in government not one of the main criticisms of labour of old?

 

If you are voting for a party that you think is doing a bad job on health, education, the economy and crime then you should really be having a look in the mirror.  

[XB52]

The Scottish Independence Party story is a weird fake: looking at the Scotsman story, for example, there is no party, no names given, no details, nothing that a vaguely-professional journalist would require to actually write a story saying that the thing exists.

 

Whoever did the faking was, I suspect, making a rather feeble attempt to deflect attention from yesterday's striking TNS poll, that gives the SNP 62% Labour 20% Conservatives 12%.

 

But the fine detail of that poll is well worth a second look: see http://www.tns-bmrb.co.uk/home

 

Check out the '18-24 years old, certain to vote' outcome, for example: SNP 86%, Lab 5%, Tories 5%. 

this just confirms the fact that the people who don't get their news from the state media machine the BBC or from the unionist papers are much more likely to vote for the SNP and for Independence. 

[XB52]

There are names in the link I posted previously. 

 

Another good piece from Massie on the SNP enjoying power without responsibility. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2015/08/nicola-sturgeons-bandwagon-rolls-on-a-new-poll-puts-the-snp-on-62/ The poll shows another landslide for the SNP despite a large portion of their support thinking that they are not doing a good job. This will be deflected by saying that the other parties are shite - however, is voting for the SNP despite their poor record in government not one of the main criticisms of labour of old?

 

If you are voting for a party that you think is doing a bad job on health, education, the economy and crime then you should really be having a look in the mirror.  

poor Alex Massie, the big bad SNP are cheeturs, it's no fair.   As per the stats, 3/4 of the population are quite happy with the way the SNP are governing Scotland so not a surprise that the SNP are getting over 60% in the polls.  God I love this thread now; all the britnats fuming over the fact that the SNP are popular

[aussieh]

There are names in the link I posted previously.

 

Another good piece from Massie on the SNP enjoying power without responsibility. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2015/08/nicola-sturgeons-bandwagon-rolls-on-a-new-poll-puts-the-snp-on-62/ The poll shows another landslide for the SNP despite a large portion of their support thinking that they are not doing a good job. This will be deflected by saying that the other parties are shite - however, is voting for the SNP despite their poor record in government not one of the main criticisms of labour of old?

 

If you are voting for a party that you think is doing a bad job on health, education, the economy and crime then you should really be having a look in the mirror.

Says more about the regard held for the belters together.

Ill vote Slab again, when they can live up to the name.