The 2015 General Election Megathread

[HaymarketJambo]

HD - I blame the SNP for not using the powers they have to mitigate the "austerity" driven by the Tories at Westminster.

 

It's ok you blaming the SNP about the Tory austerity cuts which I can't understand, what is the main opposition party, Labour doing about it, NOTHING.   

[JamboX2]

You seem more inclined to challenge the Yes supporters rather than No supporters, in my opinion. That is why I was surprised that you voted the way that you did.

 

I'll post the same link that I did the last time surrounding the Smith commission:

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/scotland-smith-commission-snp-david-cameron

On your link:

 

1. It's dated January and relates to the initial draft which was subsequently amended and improved by Carmichael and Mundell in the run up to and after the election. After all January was always just a draft, not the final offer.

 

2. In Energy, immigration and certain tribunals with cross border effect the reservations to preserve a single energy market's integrity and in the other two a single legal basis for all is largely sensible. In fact the white paper proposed common energy regulation, regulators and a single market. And proposed complimentary immigration laws.

 

3. Welfare: A duty to consult isn't a veto, and runs both ways. If we are to retain a universal welfare state across the UK, a must since we voted No, shouldn't there be a commonality of basic benefits? A base level through the UC? And as that will be administered by bodies accountable to the SoS for DWP should Scottish Ministers not inform and consult on there proposed changes here? Having read the draft act which is set to be amended, such consent or agreement cannot be unreasonably with held. So if they feel it is, challenge them in court.

 

4. Tax - the 10p rate is Calman. The Smith proposal is full variance of the income tax bands in Scotland. Which us due to be devolved around 2016/17 and by 2018 at the latest.

 

5. Crown Estate - tend to see no issue there. All that is in Scotland will be devolved but any future investments will be for the Crown Estate to keep. Is that not like nationalising the energy industry and then EDF buy land a build a new plant subsequent to nationalising the existing stock?

 

The veto is a myth. It's a consultation. A discussion to seek agreement and inform others of plans to come. There are local authority powers which need to be used with consultation of the Scottish Government, is that a veto?

 

Anyway, the process is still ongoing. Those positions if January have been superseded by the Scotland Office redraft and the bill is further along than that now. Amendments can be brought at the next stage better via committees, the Commons and the Lords.

 

Let's wait and see the finished article before judging it totally.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Didn't realise that Corbyn was such a big IRA sympathiser. That rather puts me off him

[Boris]

I think it's clear what No is, provides and what extra powers are set to come.

 

Yes offered sharing a currency, a joint welfare system, a shared energy market and energy regulator and many other shared services. Why? Independence should be that. Independence. The model offered wasn't good enough.

 

It wasn't bold, it offered Scotland the chance to be a mini-UK in the North.

 

The campaign wasn't broad and civic, it was narrow and SNP dominated. It's also telling many of these groups were subsumed into the SNP soon after rather than remain separate and articulating their own views.

 

At least with No you knew that it was predominantly the Tories and their mates in business and Labour and it's Trade Union backers.

 

Don't get me wrong, the No camp was bad. Poorly lead and constructed. You can go read my posts on the Indy thread to see I criticised them as much! But Yes supporters and SNP supporters have repeatedly failed to accept, acknowledge and deal with their own failings from the referendum. Instead it has been a story of media bias, dirty tricks and lies and scaremongering. Sorry to say, it was the Yes campaign's duty to rebut those positions, and they monumentally failed to do so.

 

Totally agree with what you have said, and I suspect that should there be another referendum you will see better arguments laid out regards currency etc.

[TheMaganator]

Totally agree with what you have said, and I suspect that should there be another referendum you will see better arguments laid out regards currency etc.

There will have to be but the problem is that there are no 'good' options on currency. And by 'good' I mean sellable to the public who are used to Sterling in their pockets. 

 

The sensible option would be to have our own currency - but if you think people were apprehensive about independence before,  starting a new currency will not allay those apprehensions. 

[Hasselhoff]

Totally agree with what you have said, and I suspect that should there be another referendum you will see better arguments laid out regards currency etc.

 

Problem for SNP is that the Plan B currency plans were all lesser options than sticking with the currency union ? that we all know and love now

 

- ? tied to GBP

- Euro

- New Scottish currency

 

SNP tried to deflect last time round with Salmond's interruption of Darling "ahhhhhhh.....of course we can use the pound" without explaining that it wouldn't be the same as the current currency situation. If they do change the currency plans, they will have to be up-front with the voting public on what that actually means. 

[aussieh]

It would have been the scottish governments responsibility to pay pensions in an indy Scotland as they stated in the White paper. With the deficit being one of the largest in Europe meaning increased taxes and reduced public spending just to have a status quo, it would mean even more to pay for the pensions of our elderly. Pretty sure I recall Scotland has an older population than rUK - we may die younger but there are more of us that are elderly so more people getting pensions.

 

At some point, the SNP are going to have to tell us what they are going to do with these new powers they get through Smith. If they can't do that and show that they can use then to good effect, there is no way we should be trusting them with full independence.

Pensions are safe, its law.

See this trust them with indy, its an indyref, not a election for the SNP to take over Scotland, its not a dictatorship, where voting.

Nice bit if disrespect though.

[Boris]

There will have to be but the problem is that there are no 'good' options on currency. And by 'good' I mean sellable to the public who are used to Sterling in their pockets. 

 

The sensible option would be to have our own currency - but if you think people were apprehensive about independence before,  starting a new currency will not allay those apprehensions. 

 

I suspect that setting up our own currency wouldn't be as unpopular as the supposed currency union, and it would also negate any Treasury types saying it was a non-starter.

[aussieh]

So they could help the poor in Scotland but will choose not to? I thought the Scottish are all up for paying higher taxes to ensure equality and socialist Scotland?

Should they have to pay twice?.

[aussieh]

It does not fall well short of what was promised - we were promised 'extensive new powers' in the Vow by the governing parties of Westminster at the time. That is what we are getting.

 

It is being delivered on time.

 

You are peddling unfounded grievance to further your cause.

G Brown- offered Home rule.

D Cameron-Offered devo max.

Where is it?.

[aussieh]

I've asked you before to tell me how it's been watered down in a manner which can be shown based on powers agreed by the parties. I don't think you answered at the time. If you say it's not devo-max or quasi federalism then you're reading a subjective ness of what you believe that to be into it. The fact is the parties agreed a substantial devolution of powers to the Holyrood parliament and the Scottish government in particular. These are transformative powers. Powers which effect employment, welfare in general and taxation. It provides the scope to be different and to be so in a radical manner.

 

Although, to me there's been the power at the disposal of all devolved governments to do much much more and to redesign the delivery of services in Scotland and importantly the accountability of government. Neither has happened. From all the tendency is to centralise and erode accountability. Not good.

 

Smith has done wonders. Should be applauded so far. But it's not over yet and we have the amendment stage arriving soon. So I hope amendments are made to strengthen the devolution settlement and create a more cooperative Union.

 

Your point on me being a yes voter sums up the major issue I have with yes supporters - we aren't all SNP fan boys who think everything will be alright on the night. That believe Eck and Nicki are doing wonders and who think Scotland is amazing. I think the SNP are a flop, they talk big and do little, the nation isn't a great place to live and despite having the powers to better people they've chose to do little and spend a lot in providing a tax freeze which robs local government of the funds to pay for the services needed to redistribute wealth effectively and to encourage and increase social mobility.

 

I voted yes, but in hindsight I can't believe I did. The whole offer was a dreadfully uninspiring one and one which the SNP botched from day 1 of their campaign.

 

I'm a pragmatic person though, and I've always said the union isn't dead and isn't on its death bed. I think Smith is a great step forward and that with the end of the referendum period and the new powers to come it's time we start making Scotland better now and worry about the sovereignty thing later. I don't really care if we're sovereign or not, and nor do a majority of people in Scotland.

 

To me, the SNP should focus on being radical with the power they have. If they're and they do change Scotland for the better they might show that we can do big things at home which show we can do bigger things if independent. The softly softly all things to all people approach will gradually diminish support from all corners and leave people asking "why bother with independence?"

The white paper, wasnt the constitution, it was an SNP book of ideas, didnt even read it.

I think the parties and the people,would, over the next decades of indy, shape Scotland.

So, again, someones voting no, with an anti SNP view, instead of yes, for Scotland to sail its own ship, with its own,designated Captain at the healm, not some prefect assigned to interfer, on the orders of the voice of another countries Government.

Edited August 12, 2015 by aussieh

[Hasselhoff]

Should they have to pay twice?.

 

If we Scots think that we don't want to "suffer" the same as the rest of the UK then yes... What do you want to happen? Should people in rUK have to pay extra to give Scottish poor more money?

 

We have Holyrood to prioritise for Scotland's needs and that is what they should be managing instead of just blaming WM. We'd be paying the UK tax and then an additional Scottish tax which would give more to those who need it in Scotland only. SNP know that's a vote killer though and so instead they'll just play the victim again even though they have powers to do something about it. Perhaps the Scottish Government could be giving some of the left over cash to the poor instead of giving grants to the T in the Park organisers who don't need it. 

[jambos are go!]

Ending the Council Tax and letting local authorities obtain resources to address social needs is vital and long overdue.

[Hasselhoff]

The white paper, wasnt the constitution, it was an SNP book of ideas, didnt even read it.

I think the parties and the people,would, over the next decades of indy, shape Scotland.

So, again, someones voting no, with anti SNP, instead of yes, for Scotland to sail its own ship, with its own,designated Captain at the healm, not some prefect assigned to interfer, on the orders of the voice of another countries Government.

 

I'm anti-independence first and foremost, not anti-SNP. SNP are the main party behind independence and so I suppose I am against them too as a result. 

 

Scotland already sails its own ship from Holyrood and it is a large ship. I don't really want to trade in that large ship for a dinghy! 

 

The Government belongs to the UK, not England. You were OK with our currency being run by another countries government? (rUK's)

[Boris]

I'm anti-independence first and foremost, not anti-SNP. SNP are the main party behind independence and so I suppose I am against them too as a result. 

 

Scotland already sails its own ship from Holyrood and it is a large ship. I don't really want to trade in that large ship for a dinghy! 

 

The Government belongs to the UK, not England. You were OK with our currency being run by another countries government? (rUK's)

 

If Scotland is a large ship from Holyrood, why would independence make it a dinghy?  Surely being in charge of everything would make it an even larger ship?

[reaths17]

The white paper, wasnt the constitution, it was an SNP book of ideas, didnt even read it.

I think the parties and the people,would, over the next decades of indy, shape Scotland.

So, again, someones voting no, with an anti SNP view, instead of yes, for Scotland to sail its own ship, with its own,designated Captain at the healm, not some prefect assigned to interfer, on the orders of the voice of another countries Government.

you stole that from the SNP's child guardian policy.

 

i don't want to be run and marginalised by a sectarian government from the weegie so i'll just leave my marginalisation as it is thanks

 

police Scotland indeed.

Edited August 12, 2015 by reaths17

[Stuart Lyon]

Using the analogy of Scotland as a ship I think the Titanic would be the obvious one under independence. HRH Salmond taking the Leonard DiCaprio role.

[reaths17]

Using the analogy of Scotland as a ship I think the Titanic would be the obvious one under independence. HRH Salmond taking the Leonard DiCaprio role.

loving, understanding, compassionate and helpful are words you wouldn't associate with, the man who would be king.

[Hasselhoff]

If Scotland is a large ship from Holyrood, why would independence make it a dinghy?  Surely being in charge of everything would make it an even larger ship?

 

We'd be in full control of the dinghy, but we'd look back in the distance and see the ship that we used to be part of the crew prosper and live better lives than us. 

 

I'm talking purely from an economic sense. Scotland can be independent, nobody is saying they can't but we will all have to get used to a lower standard of living as that is the only way it is affordable. 

[TheMaganator]

G Brown- offered Home rule.

D Cameron-Offered devo max.

Where is it?.

Devo max. Davy C was the PM.

 

Brown was merely an MP with no power to offer anything.

[reaths17]

Devo max. Davy C was the PM.

 

Brown was merely an MP with no power to offer anything.

I have it on good authority that brown was the most powerful man in the world, created a global financial collapse the likes of, never seen before, overnight.

[ToadKiller Dog]

The Clunking fist is being called to save the Labour Party wonder if he will have a corporate sponsor for his save the day speech ?

 

http://archive.is/5kL5O

[Stuart Lyon]

I see the Scottish unemployment figures have bucked the UK trend - no doubt this will be down to the SNP government and not Westminster!

[reaths17]

I see the Scottish unemployment figures have bucked the UK trend - no doubt this will be down to the SNP government and not Westminster!

all positives are SNP, negatives Westminster, don't you know.

[HaymarketJambo]

I see the Scottish unemployment figures have bucked the UK trend - no doubt this will be down to the SNP government and not Westminster!

 

Stuart, bet your gutted my friend, can't blame the SNP for that one then. LOL 

[Hasselhoff]

I see the Scottish unemployment figures have bucked the UK trend - no doubt this will be down to the SNP government and not Westminster!

 

The ?150k given to T in the Park organisers allowed them to employ a huge number of people for the weekend, boosting Scotland's figures

[aussieh]

I'm anti-independence first and foremost, not anti-SNP. SNP are the main party behind independence and so I suppose I am against them too as a result.

 

Scotland already sails its own ship from Holyrood and it is a large ship. I don't really want to trade in that large ship for a dinghy!

 

The Government belongs to the UK, not England. You were OK with our currency being run by another countries government? (rUK's)

No, its Englands.

You do whats needed until you sort it out, as in running with a pound until we change it.

Holyroods no ship its an oil drum, which could become a tanker, with our own oil, whisky, brains, hard graft etc...

[aussieh]

Devo max. Davy C was the PM.

 

Brown was merely an MP with no power to offer anything.

So, it wasnt belters together.

Just Labour talking for the tories, but not talking for the tories.

[Hasselhoff]

So, it wasnt belters together.

Just Labour talking for the tories, but not talking for the tories.

 

Well Salmond said "once in a generation" and SNP'ers try and get out of that by saying it was just his opinion. 

 

It was Gordon Brown's opinion that we'd have home rule. Opinions count for nothing

[jambos are go!]

I see the Scottish unemployment figures have bucked the UK trend - no doubt this will be down to the SNP government and not Westminster!

Down to a bounce back once nonsense on stilts was rejected. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by jambos are go!

[aussieh]

Well Salmond said "once in a generation" and SNP'ers try and get out of that by saying it was just his opinion.

 

It was Gordon Brown's opinion that we'd have home rule. Opinions count for nothing

Cameron said Devo Max, hes the top dog.

[aussieh]

The ?150k given to T in the Park organisers allowed them to employ a huge number of people for the weekend, boosting Scotland's figures

And their, deal with Amazon has created a shit load of jobs, but youll say its shite.

[Boris]

We'd be in full control of the dinghy, but we'd look back in the distance and see the ship that we used to be part of the crew prosper and live better lives than us. 

 

I'm talking purely from an economic sense. Scotland can be independent, nobody is saying they can't but we will all have to get used to a lower standard of living as that is the only way it is affordable. 

 

As may be, but it doesn't really explain the initial analogy.  Holyrood is a big ship, as you say, but a fully independent Holyrood would somehow diminish to dingy size.  I really don't get it, I'm afraid.

[jambo1185]

I hadn't heard about this tie-up between SSP and RiC

 

http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-b5ed-Scotland-Left-electoral-alliance-prepares-to-take-on-SNP#.VctnaZ1wbcv

 

Interesting. Probably wouldn't make much of a difference other than stop the SNP perhaps picking up a couple of additional list votes (so their majority might be a tiny bit smaller), potentially take some of the Green list vote as well I suppose.

[Hasselhoff]

As may be, but it doesn't really explain the initial analogy.  Holyrood is a big ship, as you say, but a fully independent Holyrood would somehow diminish to dingy size.  I really don't get it, I'm afraid.

 

As part of the UK, we are part of the crew of a massive ship 

 

We're hoping to jump off into said dinghy to sail off on our own because some sailors don't want to work as a team

 

Has this analogy gone too far now?

[Boris]

As part of the UK, we are part of the crew of a massive ship 

 

We're hoping to jump off into said dinghy to sail off on our own because some sailors don't want to work as a team

 

Has this analogy gone too far now?

 

Ah, ok.

 

You said initially

 

"Scotland already sails its own ship from Holyrood and it is a large ship. I don't really want to trade in that large ship for a dinghy!"

 

so I was taking Holyrood as the ship, not the UK. I get you now.

[Hasselhoff]

And their, deal with Amazon has created a shit load of jobs, but youll say its shite.

 

So Tories/Lib Dem coalition create 2 million jobs in last 5 years and get accused of mostly being zero hour contract and low paid jobs, but SNP want a pat on the back for giving Amazon dirt cheap business rates so they can also hire on minimum wage?

[Hasselhoff]

Ah, ok.

 

You said initially

 

"Scotland already sails its own ship from Holyrood and it is a large ship. I don't really want to trade in that large ship for a dinghy!"

 

so I was taking Holyrood as the ship, not the UK. I get you now.

 

Sorry, I see now that wasn't very clear - now we're in the same boat

[Boris]

Sorry, I see now that wasn't very clear - now we're in the same boat

Haha. Nice.

[aussieh]

So Tories/Lib Dem coalition create 2 million jobs in last 5 years and get accused of mostly being zero hour contract and low paid jobs, but SNP want a pat on the back for giving Amazon dirt cheap business rates so they can also hire on minimum wage?

minimum wage, no it certainly is not.

[aussieh]

As part of the UK, we are part of the crew of a massive ship

 

We're hoping to jump off into said dinghy to sail off on our own because some sailors don't want to work as a team

 

Has this analogy gone too far now?

We not the officers on your ship.

Youre right its gone too far.

Wheres trident when you need them.

Edited August 12, 2015 by aussieh

[Stuart Lyon]

Hasselhoff had to put his oar in!

[aussieh]

[Hasselhoff]

The poop deck is where John Swinney was standing when he realised the current oil price

[aussieh]

The poop deck is where John Swinney was standing when he realised the current oil price

Tied his scarf around the funnel.

[aussieh]

Haha. Nice.

Whos your picks for the Labour Leaderships, Boris.?

Is Corbyn, Suicide, or is it media propaganda?.

[JamboX2]

I suspect that setting up our own currency wouldn't be as unpopular as the supposed currency union, and it would also negate any Treasury types saying it was a non-starter.

Pretty much agree with that. As would euro membership.

[JamboX2]

The white paper, wasnt the constitution, it was an SNP book of ideas, didnt even read it.

I think the parties and the people,would, over the next decades of indy, shape Scotland.

So, again, someones voting no, with an anti SNP view, instead of yes, for Scotland to sail its own ship, with its own,designated Captain at the healm, not some prefect assigned to interfer, on the orders of the voice of another countries Government.

Aussie, the UK is your country as much as anyone else's even if you voted to leave it. You're a citizen and have rights. It's yours and mine.

 

People would shape Indy Scotland as much as they could within the independence model offered of sharing this that and the next thing it's a limiting of the freedom to shape the nation through things which would've needed massive amounts of consultation between two nations which were nominally independent. Our budgets would be shaped by the Bank of England and the Treasuy, our energy market by English consumers and our economic policy by what course the Treasury favoured to keep a sterling zone afloat. That's limiting, not empowering.

 

We have our own captain at the helm. Her name is Nicola Sturgeon. SNP MSP. Elected by the good people of Govan. Her party was elected by the Scottish electorate to run Scotland and lead it. Are you telling me she's an appointed prefect? A stooge to London? A branch manager? A regional sales rep? A lackie? A toom tabbard?

 

Get a grip of that attitude on that. We aren't serfs and we have rights and the state obligations to us. The yes campaign lost because it didn't convince the people. It's own failure. The people said no, but like the SNP. It's an odd one but there it is. Scotland isn't a vassal state, it's a nation within the UK and has a democratically elected government which enacts policies on a wide range of issues and will do so on many more.

 

It's attitudes like yours which will jeprodise a future yes win.

[JamboX2]

The Clunking fist is being called to save the Labour Party wonder if he will have a corporate sponsor for his save the day speech ?

 

http://archive.is/5kL5O

Seen how much Eck is making from his book deals and lecture tours? Quite a lot.

 

Brown, like Salmond, puts a lot of what he earns from these deals into charitable foundations.

[JamboX2]

Totally agree with what you have said, and I suspect that should there be another referendum you will see better arguments laid out regards currency etc.

To be honest, if devolution works and it does, then we don't need independnence. That's my opinion. I feel British and I feel part of the UK. I work for a cross border firm and we're no different from these guys. We're proud scots and proudly English etc. I don't think Scottish and English and Welsh interests are all that different or divergent and I think the union has been great for us all.

 

It needs reformed, but Scotland needs reformed as well. Scotland is failing as much as the UK to offer my generation a new and bright future. The white paper was the negotiating position of the government and it didn't offer me the new nation which would do better by the young or disadvantaged or old.

 

I doubt they will sort out their issues before a new vote, but their hope is he UK as a whole has voted out of the EU and Scotland hasn't. That democratic argument is stronger and will win over soft nos.

 

As an aside. I don't remember SNP vitriol and anger at inequality in wealth and health or at food banks before this time last year or much before that. It was more pro-business and centrist. And that's my worry with them, they have no ideological roots to keep them anchored and anything is a reason to further independence as a cause rather than benefiting the lives of the people they serve.