The 2015 General Election Megathread

[aussieh]

Yep. It's only being brought up because the snp can't accept that the majority of scottish people are opposed to independence.

No they didnt. Scots voted yes.

[aussieh]

No. The smith commission was agreed, the Scotland Office drafted the proposals, these proposals were in the run-up to the election, and expanded upon, and are now being implemented in law.

 

What has been watered down?

 

The ability to levy income tax? To create new taxes? To establish new benefits? To top up existing benefits? To run employment welfare services and the jobs programs? The expansion of control in transport and justice? To make reforms to Holyrood without the Scotland Office? The duty of both governments to consult one another on joint or shared matters? The expansion of joint-ministerial structures?

 

The point remains. The SNP undermined it whilst it was on going, by saying in public they weren't happy ignored the process that was ongoing. It was a process designed to seek a unanimous agreement which all would back. Not a process to meet one group over another's wants.

 

Fact remains people wanted to remain in the union, the major flaw was the lack of a real constitutional convention for the union in the aftermath. What we should've had was either an open and transparent civic convention on devolution either for Scotland alone or for the UK as a whole. Instead we got a politicians cabal and a quick fix for all which allows the SNP to maintain a pretence of betrayal and the Labour and Tory parties can bemoan them for saying so. It's beggars belief. None of these parties are focusing on us and our issues, on declining social mobility in Scotland, on a corrupted police force, on falling education standards, NHS crises and housing shortages. Much easier to cry foul and debate power rather than act.

Wow, The destruction of Labour has made you bitter, x2.

[aussieh]

That's a matter of opinion on a sterling job. Competent government yes. But I'd argue they've been uninspiring and overseen a decline in social mobility, educational standards and a series of regressive budgets robbing Peter to pay Paul in terms of their council tax freeze.

So uninspired, to 56 mps with 50% of votes.

[aussieh]

A reference for you (it's as easy as typing 4words into Google)...

 

http://t.email3.telegraph.co.uk/res/telegraph_t/meter_pin1.html

 

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the "Vow" was instrumental in swinging the vote. John Curtice has already demonstrated that it made no measurable difference to the outcome as the split was pretty much the same before and after.

Im sure it didnt.

They shouldnt have said it, if they didnt think they needed it.

[JamboX2]

Fair point.

 

The UK is sliding backwards, we're dragged along by the current. SNP won't be reforming anything without first securing independence. Quite rightly in my opinion.

Then the SNP don't deserve to govern. If you seek to do little with the power at your disposal move aside for those who will.

 

There are plenty powers to make Scotland better at Holyrood's disposal now. The council tax can be replaced, schools can be improved and education opened up, health care can be strengthened and localised to focus on unique health inequalities across Scotland and we can reform our nation to be more open, transparent and democratic now through reforming an overly quango run system of government.

 

If the SNP want independence give the people a taste of what Scotland can be, not fiddle and moan about a boogeyman elsewhere.

[JamboX2]

So uninspired, to 56 mps with 50% of votes.

I don't deny their electoral success. I just don't think it's very deserved based on their running of Scotland when we've seen backwards trends in health and education Aussie.

 

And I'm not bitter. I just think we've spent 6 years now debating where power lies. We've decided that. Let's talk about the policies we want to see implemented in Scotland through the powers coming and we already have.

[jambo1185]

HS, come on, you know Salmond was the First Minister and the decision maker at the time all these sorts of comments were being made in the run-up to the referendum. It was even in the white paper that it was once in a generation! But anyway

 

 

As it happens I think Sturgeon is playing this one right and in a way that is reasonable, understandable, and which I think most of Scots can get comfortable with. No discussion at this year's conference, telling the membership to trust her. Putting something vague in the 2016 manifesto then, assuming another (increased) Tory majority at Westminster in 2020, an all out ref campaign as part of their 2021 manifesto.

Edited August 6, 2015 by jambo1185

[JamboX2]

They reform, they encounter teething problems, the unionist press and three main parties take great delight in bashing them to sunder and their share of the vote decreases.

 

SNP are running Scotland with one hand tied behind their back, Westminister ultimately controlling most of what we do in terms of budget allocation.

 

Support for independence has increased (will link when I find it), they just have to continue doing what they're doing until the next referendum which should come along in 2020.

Opposition will always exist and the press will always scrutinize, that's part of a democracy.

 

That position changes soon and at present they can spend their budget however they like. That's their choice. McLeish, Dewar and McConnell all did things Westminster wasn't up for following and spent their budgets accordingly - no tuition fees, free personal care, no foundation hospitals etc. If the "unionist lackies" can can't a vociferously independent party do it better?

 

Please do. I read it had slumped below 43% in favour. If they go again without correcting a lot of issues in Scottish public life they'll be beat on their record.

[jambo1185]

Searched 'Martin Day' in google, nothing.

 

Could be because he spells his name with a "y". To be honest though nothing he said was that controversial. I'd say Colin Keir MSPs leaflet was worse as it basically said there would be an indyref2 in the life of the next Scottish Parliament.

 

On the plus side, some of the SNP fringe are not all that delighted with Nicola's playing the long game. But I can't in reality see these people really switching away from the SNP unless a more radical pro-independence party emerges (something which I know the SNP hierarchy always move very quickly to shut down when the possibility emerges e.g. RIC were seriously thinking of appearing on the regional vote next year but backed down after being put under huge pressure). This is one of a number of examples of some more radical supporters losing patience:

 

http://glasgowunihumanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

 

The last couple of blog posts on there are incredible reading - some tremendous keyboard thrashing going on. I've never seen anyone, of any policitcal persuasion, call Sturgeon "shallow and unlikeable" before!

Edited August 6, 2015 by jambo1185

[jambo1185]

Found it. Support has increased slightly, I know that he is 'pro-independence' but he's always remained impartial and unbiased, this is evident in his articles for IBTimes etc:

 

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.be/2015/07/surveying-survation-survey-thats-seen.html

 

It's steady at 45% really, some polls have shown a couple of percent higher earlier this year, more recent ones show a couple of percent lower, but it's all coming out at the same amount. The numbers listed in that blog there are excluding the "Don't Knows", who, as always, would hold the balance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Post-referendum_polling

 

The most interesting thing about that blog is actually the comments, which echo many others where not insignificant numbers of pro-independence supports would prefer a SNP/Green coalition to an SNP majority, as they see the Greens holding the balance of power the best way to (I) marginalise the unionist parties, and (ii) put pressure on the SNP to actually do some proper governing and enact progressive policies.

Edited August 6, 2015 by jambo1185

[deesidejambo]

Salmond argued it was 'once in a generation' but Cameron also promised us a permanent Scottish parliament, which his party voted-down. Politicians eh. The difference is that Salmond is no longer in charge, it's a fresh perspective.

 

Most people that are polled express a wish to have another referendum, this is where Sturgeon's triple-lock system comes in. I agree, she's playing the situation perfectly and is very astute. Given that a substantial proportion of Scot's want devolution-max, when the already watered-down Smith Commission is finalised and it fails well short of what we were promised, that should trigger the triple-lock.

Indeed Nicola is playing it well, but fot the wrong reasons.

 

She needs to generate resentment in Scotland that we are being unfairly treated by the evil tory Toffs.  Thats the only way she will get support for a re-try.   Politics of resentment is pretty poor imo.

 

But its the only way to get what she wants so the pain and divisiveness in Scotland will be encouraged.  Sad really.  The whole country will suffer for years.

[jambo1185]

The parliament is permanent

 

Found it. Support has increased slightly, I know that he is 'pro-independence' but he's always remained impartial and unbiased, this is evident in his articles for IBTimes etc:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.be/2015/07/surveying-survation-survey-thats-seen.html

 

Yeah I don't mind him he sticks to discussions around polling. This one was good as well as he picked up on the (very small) Scottish sub-sample to a ComRes poll which I didn't see reported anywhere else, but maybe that's due to sampling being so tiny (the 2% for the BNP = one person) (SNP 54%, Conservatives 19%, Labour 14%, Liberal Democrats 5%, Greens 3%, UKIP 3%, BNP 2%.)

 

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.be/2015/07/astounding-aberdeen-by-elections.html#comment-form

 

There are a couple of Glasgow by-elections today which should see further decimation of Labour.

[Cade]

Nice to see this thread is still locked in a circular argument with nobody able to prove or disprove anything.

[Thunderstruck]

For those that prefer to hear it from the horse's mouth:

 

 

This was the Sunday before the Referendum and you will note the reference to the "binding nature of the Edinburgh Agreement" even if it had been a 1 vote victory either way.

 

When Andrew Marr asks him to confirm that, if "No", it would "once in a generation event" and he goes on to confirm that it would with timespans of 20 years being mentioned. He then goes on to add that in his view it would a once in a lifetime event.

 

This was before the slow realisation that the vote was not going his way.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

The amount of unionists on here but but but Alex says, deal with it people still want something you don't.

[XB52]

HS, come on, you know Salmond was the First Minister and the decision maker at the time all these sorts of comments were being made in the run-up to the referendum. It was even in the white paper that it was once in a generation! But anyway

 

 

As it happens I think Sturgeon is playing this one right and in a way that is reasonable, understandable, and which I think most of Scots can get comfortable with. No discussion at this year's conference, telling the membership to trust her. Putting something vague in the 2016 manifesto then, assuming another (increased) Tory majority at Westminster in 2020, an all out ref campaign as part of their 2021 manifesto.

agree totally with this. Assuming the tory party continue in power beyond the next election, that is the time to revisit Independence. If, by that time, the majority of people in Scotland still don't want it then we don't deserve it ever

[XB52]

Indeed Nicola is playing it well, but fot the wrong reasons.

 

She needs to generate resentment in Scotland that we are being unfairly treated by the evil tory Toffs.  Thats the only way she will get support for a re-try.   Politics of resentment is pretty poor imo.

 

But its the only way to get what she wants so the pain and divisiveness in Scotland will be encouraged.  Sad really.  The whole country will suffer for years.

the country has, and will continue to suffer, under tory rule. It looks like the only way to stop this is Independence, as the labour party continues to cut it's own throat

[aussieh]

the country has, and will continue to suffer, under tory rule. It looks like the only way to stop this is Independence, as the labour party continues to cut it's own throat

Its only a matter of time.

[smallfaces]

The amount of unionists on here but but but Alex says, deal with it people still want something you don't.

Then why does an independence party, whose primary reason to exist is independence, not have a repeating item in every manifesto? Line 1 - referendum.

 

Why is there any need to `wait and see` before declaring the need for a referendum?

 

Surely independence itself is what is required, no?

Edited August 6, 2015 by smallfaces

[pablo]

the country has, and will continue to suffer, under tory rule. It looks like the only way to stop this is Independence, as the labour party continues to cut it's own throat

What a lot of shite. Education, Health, Housing, Local Government, Environment are all devolved matters. Oooo the big bad Tories.

[Boris]

Then why does an independence party, whose primary reason to exist is independence, not have a repeating item in every manifesto? Line 1 - referendum.

 

Why is there any need to `wait and see` before declaring the need for a referendum?

 

Surely independence itself is what is required, no?

 

Well, in the "old" days, had the SNP secured the result it just did at Westminster we'd be independent by now!

 

But I agree with you and that's what annoyed me about the SNP dominating the YES campaign - as a party whose raison d'etre is independence, they didn't half fudge important aspects, currency primarily, IMO.

[Boris]

What a lot of shite. Education, Health, Housing, Local Government, Environment are all devolved matters. Oooo the big bad Tories.

 

Not really if Westminster controls the purse strings.

[pablo]

Not really if Westminster controls the purse strings.

Not really what? Education and Health aren't devolved matters?

[Unknown user]

Nice to see this thread is still locked in a circular argument with nobody able to prove or disprove anything.

I personally think it's amazing that the desire for self determination and independence is placed under the banner of Nationalism.

 

The SNP should change their name to the Scottish Independence Party as that's their flagship cause.

 

Independence and self determination are clear concepts that can't be beaten with the vague evil brush that so many bring out when the word Nationalism is applied

[pablo]

I personally think it's amazing that the desire for self determination and independence is placed under the banner of Nationalism.

 

The SNP should change their name to the Scottish Independence Party as that's their flagship cause.

 

Independence and self determination are clear concepts that can't be beaten with the vague evil brush that so many bring out when the word Nationalism is applied

Yip, the best way to fix the failing Health and Education systems is a bit of re-branding.

[Boris]

Not really what? Education and Health aren't devolved matters?

 

Although devolved. Westminster influence is still there, not least by financial means hence the "oooh, big bad Tories" is not really negated by the devolvement of these areas.

[Unknown user]

Yip, the best way to fix the failing Health and Education systems is a bit of re-branding.

Talk about missing the point altogether!

 

My point, of course, is that many use the word Nationalism like a blunt club, it's caveman politics, it's this and it's that.

 

The SNP and the independence movement are about independence, not nationalism, and it would be a more honest debate if we actually used accurate terminology instead of getting into pointless debates about nationalism.

 

Surely we can all accept that wanting independence is not the the same as Scotland Uber Alles, unless of course it suits you to have the waters muddied

[pablo]

Although devolved. Westminster influence is still there, not least by financial means hence the "oooh, big bad Tories" is not really negated by the devolvement of these areas.

Of course not. But the Scottish government can pass laws on devolved matters without interference from Westminster, so always laying the blame at the feet of the Tories, doesn't do anything to actually address the suffering the poster imagines we're all going through.

 

As for the financial means, wee Nicki is asking for FFA at the earliest opportunity isn't she?, so even that won't be a factor soon.

[Boris]

Of course not. But the Scottish government can pass laws on devolved matters without interference from Westminster, so always laying the blame at the feet of the Tories, doesn't do anything to actually address the suffering the poster imagines we're all going through.

 

As for the financial means, wee Nicki is asking for FFA at the earliest opportunity isn't she?, so even that won't be a factor soon.

 

Well, to agree with you to an extent, the sooner FFA happens the sooner the SNP would be accountable in full for their actions, as would any Holyrood administration.

 

If they did well, could it lead to full independence?

 

I agree that the party in power at Holyrood should govern and be held responsible for their success and failures.

[Stuart Lyon]

pablo don't you know that the SNP is blameless? Always right about everything.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Then why does an independence party, whose primary reason to exist is independence, not have a repeating item in every manifesto? Line 1 - referendum.

Why is there any need to `wait and see` before declaring the need for a referendum?

Surely independence itself is what is required, no?

Putting things on here"........once in a generation.....lifetime....blah blah. Have you never drove past a shop that says sale ends today only for it to still going the next day. I'm sure you know very well that was a tactic to get the most people to vote. Although keep playing the victim by all means!

[HaymarketJambo]

I see that Ruth Davidson the mighty leader of the Scottish Conservative Party going to stand in the Lothians for the Holyrood elections next year?   

[Thunderstruck]

Putting things on here"........once in a generation.....lifetime....blah blah. Have you never drove past a shop that says sale ends today only for it to still going the next day. I'm sure you know very well that was a tactic to get the most people to vote. Although keep playing the victim by all means!

I admire the subtle change of tack in the thread. Yesterday it was "who said that/nobody said that" but now that we know, it was only a wee porkie and "it's a game" or "all politicians lie".

 

It seems democracy is only important or valid if you get what you want.

[aussieh]

 

 

It seems democracy is only important or valid if you get what you want.

Are you serious?.

[jambo1185]

I see that Ruth Davidson the mighty leader of the Scottish Conservative Party going to stand in the Lothians for the Holyrood elections next year?   

 

Yeah she moved to Edinburgh earlier this year, and plans to set-up base there permanently, so it makes more sense for her to be a Lothians MP than a Glasgow one from 2016 onwards. Looks like she is going to take the Edinburgh Central spot, which is a no-hoper constituency wise.

 

The hope is also that it might help get the list vote up enough to take 3 list MSPs (they don't think they can get a second Glasgow list MSP so it will allow a new person to take that slot instead).

[HaymarketJambo]

Yeah she moved to Edinburgh earlier this year, and plans to set-up base there permanently, so it makes more sense for her to be a Lothians MP than a Glasgow one from 2016 onwards. Looks like she is going to take the Edinburgh Central spot, which is a no-hoper constituency wise.

 

The hope is also that it might help get the list vote up enough to take 3 list MSPs (they don't think they can get a second Glasgow list MSP so it will allow a new person to take that slot instead).

  I agree, I live in Edinburgh Central, there is no hope that she will win Edinburgh Central, but I think she will struggle to even be a    list MSP?     

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Are you serious?.

Correct...,,but but but the SNP held back millions and nowt gets said about Gideon smashing us for a billion plus whilst rewarding failed banksters.

[Boris]

I agree, I live in Edinburgh Central, there is no hope that she will win Edinburgh Central, but I think she will struggle to even be a list MSP?

The Tories got at least one list msp in 2011. If I were an aspiring candidate for the Tories on Edinburgh, I'm not sure I'd be too happy at the Leader potentially taking my spot! Still, sacrifice for the party may reap future dividends...

[Thunderstruck]

Are you serious?.

If there was another referendum next year and it was another "No", would you accept that? Judging by your usual Tourette's-like responses, probably not. So, how many times would we have to vote No for you to accept it?

 

The 2014 Referendum was lauded as a superb example of voter engagement with a huge turnout and debate engaged in a generally civilised manner. In short, an example of the best of democratic processes. Despite claims of interference by MI5/MFI/CIA/GCHQ/NCIS/SMERSH/U.N.C.L.E.* it was conducted fairly and, the view of international observers, the outcome was an entirely accurate measure of voter intention.

 

* delete according to your personal paranoia.

 

The point is that, if ever a vote accurately reflected the voice of the people, this was it but you and your fellow travellers cannot accept the settled will of the Scottish People.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

If there was another referendum next year and it was another "No", would you accept that?

 

There won't be

The 2014 Referendum was lauded as a superb example of voter engagement with a huge turnout and debate engaged in a generally civilised manner. In short, an example of the best of democratic processes. Despite claims of interference by MI5/MFI/CIA/GCHQ/NCIS/SMERSH/U.N.C.L.E.* it was conducted fairly and, the view of international observers, the outcome was an entirely accurate measure of voter intention.

* delete according to your personal paranoia.

 

Nonsense

 

 

The point is that, if ever a vote accurately reflected the voice of the people, this was it but you and your fellow travellers cannot accept the settled will of the Scottish People.

Just like if scotland ever did become Indy then it would be your right to campaign for us to rejoin. It's called freedom of speech.

[GBJambo]

Just like if scotland ever did become Indy then it would be your right to campaign for us to rejoin. It's called freedom of speech.

Snp wouldn't allow it. Will of the scottish people etc etc.

[Hasselhoff]

Just like if scotland ever did become Indy then it would be your right to campaign for us to rejoin. It's called freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech - like where no voters were threatened to stay away from "yes" streets, where no campaigners were heckled and abused at meetings or followed round the streets? Where journalists speak to people with Police Scotland snooping on them? Where No voters were intimidated into silence during the referendum?

 

Did Nicola ever get heckled at public meetings? Were there "No" streets that Yes supporters got threatened to stay away from? You can point to a few Rangers idiots in George Sq doing what old firm fans do and winding up the opposition but on the whole No was the side which showed the most respect to the opposition.

 

SNP may say the referendum was a wonderful process but I disagree. Yes tried to silence the No voters and as a result we mainly just kept to ourselves, didn't disclose our voting intentions publicly and won comfortably in the end. Unlike many Yes voters who were voting with their heart, myself and many others voted with our head as the risk was too high and the economic case not made. The vow made no difference to me nor anyone i know who shared that they also voted no.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Did an SNP MSP boot a no supporter? No I rest my case.

[Thunderstruck]

Just like if scotland ever did become Indy then it would be your right to campaign for us to rejoin. It's called freedom of speech.

The question was not whether there would be another Referendum but how many Referendum Rejections of Independence would it take for the Salmond, Sturgeon and the "ah pure must have Indy" brigade to accept a DEMOCRATIC vote.

[Hasselhoff]

Did an SNP MSP boot a no supporter? No I rest my case.

 

Hearts had a nutter who took a swing at Neil Lennon. Which team has the scummier fans, Hearts or Celtic? 

 

I rest my case

[Psychedelicropcircle]

The question was not whether there would be another Referendum but how many Referendum Rejections of Independence would it take for the Salmond, Sturgeon and the "ah pure must have Indy" brigade to accept a DEMOCRATIC vote.

As many as people continue to vote for a party who have this in their manifesto. The way this this boils unionists piss even though they won entertains me.

[jambo1185]

The Tories got at least one list msp in 2011. If I were an aspiring candidate for the Tories on Edinburgh, I'm not sure I'd be too happy at the Leader potentially taking my spot! Still, sacrifice for the party may reap future dividends...

They got 2, both of whom are standing down this time. With the SNP set to win all the constituency seats in Lothian they've an outside shot at getting 3 this time.

[deesidejambo]

The question was not whether there would be another Referendum but how many Referendum Rejections of Independence would it take for the Salmond, Sturgeon and the "ah pure must have Indy" brigade to accept a DEMOCRATIC vote.

Never.  Thats the problem.  It will repeat every 2-3 years now as the clamour for another vote increases due to building of grievance and Nicola can't hold them in check.  The sooner the better imo so they can get a kicking again.

[Thunderstruck]

As many as people continue to vote for a party who have this in their manifesto. The way this this boils unionists piss even though they won entertains me.

You should perhaps take yourself off to read the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey. The percentage in favour of Independence has, since 2000 varied between 25% and 39% with the highest recorded support happening in 2005; the actual Yes vote in last September being circa 37% of adult population.

 

It has changed from Sept 14 but in a downward direction. The numbers polling in support of SNP last May lies within that range and, as we have been repeatedly told, included those who will continue to vote No but were conned into thinking that the SNP was the best way to keep DC out of No. 10 when, in fact, the Tories couldn't have hoped for a better a Recruiting Sergeant than the SNP. I hope your are happy with your part in giving us five more years of "Tory Rule".

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

England wouldn't allow it. Thanks to the disgraceful news reporting over the last few years, a large percentage of England want rid of us. The desire for Scotland to leave the union had doubled in the polls to 40 odd %.

 

We're penny-pinching, zenophobic, dole-claiming wasters. Apparently. That's the union that a lot of you want to remain part of.

Surely if England "want rid" of you it's a good thing for the independence movement?

 

I sometimes think there's a real narcissistic streak among Nats in that you want people to beg to you to stay in the Union.