aussieh Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 fwiw I have very little to say that I thought was good about labours time in control of holyrood either. In fact I can see why people liked the minority snp as I tend to believe things happen in spite of politicians rather than because of them. The sad thing is given the cult in charge at the moment I almost pine for a return of labour! Tory cult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarhead Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Tory cult.I don't recall mentioning the tories but you are a bit of a random one. I can't decide whether to put you on ignore, worry about your wellbeing or if it's just a super bluff to make nats sound like loonies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarhead Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I'm ex-Labour and might vote for them again if they supported independence and detached themselves from the puppet-masters. Describing the SNP as a cult is a bit silly. 1 won't happen 2 probably will as there is effectively no slab party at Westminster now. I'm curious if a more 'independent' slab would make you return to them? Imo snp is acting very much like a cult. All political parties are broad churches, the snp is completely intolerant of anyone who questions it and behave even worse with any of its members who don't toe the party line. Mind you most their members seem quite happy with this. I find their slavish devotion to their central office quite worrying or the way many of them still have their election posters stuck to their windows months after the event. I've always found it curious that people that decry party machine politics should be so attracted to the most ruthless party machine in British politics today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I don't recall mentioning the tories but you are a bit of a random one. I can't decide whether to put you on ignore, worry about your wellbeing or if it's just a super bluff to make nats sound like loonies. Go for option 1. You can then have reasons debate with posters who actually put forward some ideas and thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I have no idea what you're talking about. The purse-strings are controlled by Westminster, that was the original discussion. It is them that is forcing poverty on a large percentage of the population through their cuts to tax credits etc. How then do explain Holyrood being able to divert ?1bn annually from core NHS funding to its pet projects. That's in an Audit Scotland report for NHS Scotland if you care to read for yourself. We heard a couple of days ago about similar diversion -?1.5bn of local government spending. Remember also that they had the ability to offset the effects of the Bedroom Tax but chose to ignore that until several (Labour led) councils embarrassed them into action. Remember also the Living Wage, now a subject of some Hubris in SNP higher echelons - in place in many councils 2 years earlier and even the policy of our Football Club before the Government assumed the mantle of its champion. Why did they do all of the above? Incompetence? Maybe but more likely playing with the livelihoods of the least well off in our society to further the end of their only real aim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 How then do explain Holyrood being able to divert ?1bn annually from core NHS funding to its pet projects. That's in an Audit Scotland report for NHS Scotland if you care to read for yourself. We heard a couple of days ago about similar diversion -?1.5bn of local government spending. Remember also that they had the ability to offset the effects of the Bedroom Tax but chose to ignore that until several (Labour led) councils embarrassed them into action. Remember also the Living Wage, now a subject of some Hubris in SNP higher echelons - in place in many councils 2 years earlier and even the policy of our Football Club before the Government assumed the mantle of its champion. Why did they do all of the above? Incompetence? Maybe but more likely playing with the livelihoods of the least well off in our society to further the end of their only real aim. Good points, well made. Expect excuses and deflection from the usual suspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Palmer Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Bit pointless of me making another drink fuelled post. I'm in Lincolnshire which is Tory heartland and Ukip central at the same time. Even though we're neglected by every government. Looking forward to the EU referendum and it tearing the Tory party apart. They'll then have the leadership campaign... just hope they don't elect a Scotsman as PM, after all, we didn't elect him and he's Scottish. That was the argument when Brown was made PM. Then again they might go for that Boris *****. Anyway, has there been promotion of policies? Or tedious attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Palmer Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Might ask my bank for a loan of a million, If I give it the cute name of quantitative easing then I should be alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) I don't recall mentioning the tories but you are a bit of a random one. I can't decide whether to put you on ignore, worry about your wellbeing or if it's just a super bluff to make nats sound like loonies. You didnt I did, The Cult Scottish Tory voters, jesus would even give them a body swerve. Ignore Edited August 10, 2015 by aussieh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I stated 'when you have nothing, there is little left to lose', to which you nonchalantly brushed it off by stating pompously that you had it all to lose as you and the No voters were the 'aspirational hard-working people'. Thus, you disregarded many people who struggle and displayed a lack of humanity. I agreed with you. And like it or not, it was people who had the most at risk, who were more likely to vote No. I'm talking about ordinary people with jobs, mortgages, pensions and savings. Using phrases like complete disregard, pompous and lack of humanity to describe every day Joes like me doesn't do your argument any favours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I agreed with you. And like it or not, it was people who had the most at risk, who were more likely to vote No. I'm talking about ordinary people with jobs, mortgages, pensions and savings. Using phrases like complete disregard, pompous and lack of humanity to describe every day Joes like me doesn't do your argument any favours. Pablo, we all have these, why do you think an indy Scotland would cause you to lose them?.Most people lost them under the UKs watch, Remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Corbyn is going to reopen the coal mines? Wonder what all the Green voters who joined up to support him make of that latest nugget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 How then do explain Holyrood being able to divert ?1bn annually from core NHS funding to its pet projects. That's in an Audit Scotland report for NHS Scotland if you care to read for yourself. We heard a couple of days ago about similar diversion -?1.5bn of local government spending. Remember also that they had the ability to offset the effects of the Bedroom Tax but chose to ignore that until several (Labour led) councils embarrassed them into action. Remember also the Living Wage, now a subject of some Hubris in SNP higher echelons - in place in many councils 2 years earlier and even the policy of our Football Club before the Government assumed the mantle of its champion. Why did they do all of the above? Incompetence? Maybe but more likely playing with the livelihoods of the least well off in our society to further the end of their only real aim. Hiya Kez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Divert 1b annually to pet projects? The IFS attributed the cut to public spending to the vagaries of the Barnett formula and ongoing reductions to the block grant. I get it though. Anything good - not the SNP. Anything bad - the SNP. The way you unionists talk, you'd think that Scotland is falling apart. I think it is safe to assume that you have not troubled yourself to look for or read the audit report. In the interests of better understanding, I will summarise: The most recent year reported upon had ?12bn in block grant (Barnett) for NHS but ?11bn actually spent on NHS by the Scottish Government). The remainder went on such as "equalities" and "sports" (the Commonwealth Games no doubt). I would have expected the saviours of the NHS to, at the very least, have safeguarded the front line health services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Slightly different direction, what are people's opinion on Sturgeon's double lock idea for the EU referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I wasn't referring to his mention of 'aspiration', more his complete disregard for people less off than him which is the Tory doctrine. I don't think Tory policy is overly helpful to the poorest. However, the fact remains they were elected and it's their medicine which is being given to the patient. MacMillan's old Etonian cabinet created the maintenance grant system many rightly call to replace student loans. If we need a graduate endowment to pay for that then I'm happy to pay for it. After all, since we moved away from the endowment bursaries in Scotland and grants have been eroded and on top of that social mobility has gone into reverse. I think I'd personally find it harder to have gone to uni now than 8 years ago. We need to be pretty brutal about education policy in Scotland because all the moves to universalism have had a negative impact on social mobility. As a former student repaying his loans at around a tenner a month I'd have no issue adding an extra ?20 to that to pay for an endowment or graduate tax which could be used to fund the grants, bursaries and access to uni courses which have been cut back over the past 8/9 years since I started uni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Slightly different direction, what are people's opinion on Sturgeon's double lock idea for the EU referendum? Good in theory but then I suppose she'd be up for a similar lock in Scotland that should Edinburgh or Shetland say No to independence they will remain in the UK? Equally if Scotland becomes independent does she propose scrapping Qualified Majority Voting at the Council of Ministers with a lock or veto? Those are logical consequences of her views here. The SNP will need to accept, as the people decided this, that on certain issues we are a UK wide polity. If a referendum is UK wide it's result will be made up by this means. However, if that result is rejected by the Scottish people, then it would be any Scottish Governments right to reject that result and hold a referendum on Scotland in the UK. After all this is a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 The way you unionists talk, you'd think that Scotland is falling apart. Its not all SNP bad. Some things are being done better. But there are major issues they've failed to address or made a mockery of. The police are a law unto themselves, education is failing the worst off and health is in a bit of rough state. Not to mention they're punting Calmac to the highest bidder and gave the Dutch our railways rather than opt to give them back to the people. To me as a lefty I'd rather see a localist approach with devolution in Scotland and public services taken off the private sector and given to the people. Not to mention getting rid of many of the unaccountable quangos and autonomous government bodies running services with no direct accountable minister to answer to parliament. Scotland is a nation fit for the middle of the 20th century not the 21st when it comes to democracy, transparency and public services. My issue is the SNP aren't being radical enough and where they are they're centralising power to St Andrews House rather than hand it to local communities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Good in theory but then I suppose she'd be up for a similar lock in Scotland that should Edinburgh or Shetland say No to independence they will remain in the UK? Equally if Scotland becomes independent does she propose scrapping Qualified Majority Voting at the Council of Ministers with a lock or veto? Those are logical consequences of her views here. The SNP will need to accept, as the people decided this, that on certain issues we are a UK wide polity. If a referendum is UK wide it's result will be made up by this means. However, if that result is rejected by the Scottish people, then it would be any Scottish Governments right to reject that result and hold a referendum on Scotland in the UK. After all this is a democracy. To me I don't think your examples are the same as we are talking about the four countries regarding the EU not areas. But I kinda agree on one hand that we voted to stay in the UK so we should have to accept the will of the whole UK. At the same time, I think these kind of situations would send the UK on the fast track to break up which is likely on Sturgeon's mind somewhere. Regardless your view point it's smart politicking from the SNP I guess, Cameron agrees to the double lock and the SNP look like they've gained a victory, Cameron refuses and they can play the oppressed card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 The double lock wont come into play because the UK will vote to stay in the EU by a wide margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 To me I don't think your examples are the same as we are talking about the four countries regarding the EU not areas. But I kinda agree on one hand that we voted to stay in the UK so we should have to accept the will of the whole UK. At the same time, I think these kind of situations would send the UK on the fast track to break up which is likely on Sturgeon's mind somewhere. Regardless your view point it's smart politicking from the SNP I guess, Cameron agrees to the double lock and the SNP look like they've gained a victory, Cameron refuses and they can play the oppressed card. Totally agree regarding your last point. As this is all it is. However, I think if the UK is 4 communities as one, then Scotland is equally the same structure. And I'm fast becoming of the view that if Scotland, rightly, like Wales and NI are rejecting the one UK idea then we've also got to see that a one Scotland approach won't work either. Decisions on a lot more need to be localised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Look, I don't agree with funding being cut for essential services, especially the NHS, however the Nuffield Trust found that the Scottish NHS is improving at a faster rate than England. The reduction to spending therefore seems to have been measured, as there was no impact on the services, rather independent sources seem to verify that it actualy improved, and continues to do so. "Improving faster" is only relevant when you consider the relative stating points. As for "no impact on services", I take it you missed some of the recent issues such as Waiting Times or St John's or the crisis in GP provision - there are many communities in Scotland (not all remote from Central Belt) without full-time GP cover or any other form of Healthcare provision. That is not the fault of Westminster and you need to look much closer to home for those responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 The double lock wont come into play because the UK will vote to stay in the EU by a wide margin. I hope you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Totally agree regarding your last point. As this is all it is. However, I think if the UK is 4 communities as one, then Scotland is equally the same structure. And I'm fast becoming of the view that if Scotland, rightly, like Wales and NI are rejecting the one UK idea then we've also got to see that a one Scotland approach won't work either. Decisions on a lot more need to be localised. Yeah I think I'm coming around to that way of thinking to be honest. I was probably pretty centrist before but it doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Latest poll puts SNP on 62% but same poll finds only a third thinking they are doing a good job in government. Which is an interesting discrepancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Palmer Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Latest poll puts SNP on 62% but same poll finds only a third thinking they are doing a good job in government. Which is an interesting discrepancy Which suggests people will vote for them because the other parties are impotent. Do Scottish Labour have new leader yet or are they still fumbling around in the dark trying to pick which one will be approved by whatever numpty is elected as UK leader? On another note, I see our delightful Foreign Secretary has claimed that "marauding migrants" threaten the standard of living in Europe. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-hammonds-demonising-of-marauding-migrants-comments-is-shameful-10447901.html (I can twist a headline too.. ) Dave won't be giving a shite as he'll be replaced in a couple of years after the referendum. Nice wee job in the Lords awaits or paid obscene amounts for shite speeches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarhead Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It's becoming less and less likely by the day. Would it not be more 'cultish' to support a party all your life, never deviating to another, whilst letting you down continually? Labour played the electorate like a lute for years. Think the word you're looking for is disciplined. The approach that the SNP takes when it comes to internal criticism is correct, if I came out and spoke disparagingly of my employer, I'd be told to conform. para 1 I find interesting. Para 2 we are 100% in agreement on that. Discipline is one thing but the snp went way past that a long time ago. They're a political party not an employer. I'm a shop steward at my work and the idea that I would meekly toe the management line whilst ignoring the members opinions is a bizarre concept to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I hear support for Dugdale has nosedived since she had a go at Corbyn . Some labour members regret having already backed her . Clearly she is an astute politician who knows which way the wind blows . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarhead Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Slightly different direction, what are people's opinion on Sturgeon's double lock idea for the EU referendum?As it will be ukip and a gaggle of rabid backbench tories versus the whole political establishment I don't see us leaving the eu anytime soon. The double lock just comes across as sturgeon scraping about for an excuse to have another referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 On another note, I see our delightful Foreign Secretary has claimed that "marauding migrants" threaten the standard of living in Europe. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-hammonds-demonising-of-marauding-migrants-comments-is-shameful-10447901.html Whilst I'm sympathetic to some of these people plights he has a point. Where is the cut off for migrants? Are we just to accept as many as want to come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) I hear support for Dugdale has nosedived since she had a go at Corbyn . Some labour members regret having already backed her . Clearly she is an astute politician who knows which way the wind blows . Surely better for her to stick by her guns and her beliefs rather than change her views to support Corbyn just to curry favour with parts of the membership? I thought conviction politics was supposed to be a good thing? If she thinks he's bad for the party she's right to say so. Anyone who backed her thinking she would back Corbyn clearly didn't give the issue the slightest bit of thought (albeit both SLAB leadership candidates are modern centrists anyway), so more fool them. I've more respect for people like Kez and Liz Kendall sticking to their guns than any of those who are jumping on the bandwagon having shown not the slightest bit of interest in the far left of the Labour party for the best part of 30 years. Edited August 10, 2015 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Surely better for her to stick by her guns and her beliefs rather than change her views to support Corbyn just to curry favour with parts of the membership? I thought conviction politics was supposed to be a good thing? If she thinks he's bad for the party she's right to say so. Anyone who backed her thinking she would back Corbyn clearly didn't give the issue the slightest bit of thought (albeit both SLAB leadership candidates are modern centrists anyway), so more fool them. I've more respect for people like Kez and Liz Kendall sticking to their guns than any of those who are jumping on the bandwagon having shown not the slightest bit of interest in the far left of the Labour party for the best part of 30 years. Could she not just have been jumping on the elected labour MP/MSP bandwagon that Corbyn will destroy the party stuff put for ward by the likes of Blair , Reid , mandelson Kendell and many others ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Could she not just have been jumping on the elected labour MP/MSP bandwagon that Corbyn will destroy the party stuff put for ward by the likes of Blair , Reid , mandelson Kendell and many others ? No. Kez's position is entirely consistent with everything she has said and done since she was first elected. Like all parties, Labour politicians cover a fairly wide scope. If people are assuming they are all one and the same and believe in all the same policies, or don't bother trying to find out where individuals actually sit on the spectrum, then they are being a bit na?ve - parties have to a broad church. If her position comes as a surprise to anyone it's only because they know nothing about her political views. Although as I said for those who back Corbyn for leader the SLAB contest is a bit difficult for them, as neither candidate is from that same mould, both are far more modern centrists along the lines of Cooper/Burnham - so neither will give them the change they want up here. They have a bit more flexibility for deputy though I suppose. Edited August 10, 2015 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Latest poll puts SNP on 62% but same poll finds only a third thinking they are doing a good job in government. Which is an interesting discrepancy that's one way of looking at it - only a quarter think they are doing a bad job is another way. Let's face it, there is no opposition in Scotland at the moment and, as much as I love the fact that labour supporters have finally woken up to the fact that the party they have supported all their lives hasn't existed since Tony Blair, a one-party state is a worry. The Tories will always have their 'i'm all right Jack I've got loads of money' support but I can't envisage them ever getting close to having a majority in Scotland, and the LibDems are finished. The only way I can see the current situation changing is either Independence, or the Scottish Labour party breaking away completely from their rUK pals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Well, this is interesting http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/declaring-independence-from-the-snp#.hvVKXwyrl2 I doubt it will really go anywhere, and they could never split the independence vote enough to allow Labour to take any Glasgow seats for example, but it does suggest the more fringier elements (Scottish Resistance for example) are running out of patience. Edited August 10, 2015 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 No. Kez's position is entirely consistent with everything she has said and done since she was first elected. Like all parties, Labour politicians cover a fairly wide scope. If people are assuming they are all one and the same and believe in all the same policies, or don't bother trying to find out where individuals actually sit on the spectrum, then they are being a bit na?ve - parties have to a broad church. If her position comes as a surprise to anyone it's only because they know nothing about her political views. Although as I said for those who back Corbyn for leader the SLAB contest is a bit difficult for them, as neither candidate is from that same mould, both are far more modern centrists along the lines of Cooper/Burnham - so neither will give them the change they want up here. They have a bit more flexibility for deputy though I suppose. Spot on. I have a lot of time for Kez and I reckon she'll make a good Scottish Leader. As you say she and MacKintosh are centrists. The likes of Rowley and Findley didn't make a run for leader as they had tried before and not won against Murphy. Perhaps they should've, but they haven't. I'm backing Kez for leader as she's younger, sharper and the job facing the Scottish leader is a long term one. One for new ideas not for what's been said before. However, I'm probably going to back Corbyn. I think he's what the UK leadership needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 As an aside, I'm also pleased to see a few more progressive Tories starting to put pressure on Osborne to re-think the blanket tax credit removal announced in the budget. If we can cushion the transfer from low wage with government top-up as we have at the moment to employers supporting their staff properly to avoid anyone having a cliff edge reduction when tax credits go (the new living wage not doing enough to cover it in full) as a transitional measure that would be a great move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Well, this is interesting http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/declaring-independence-from-the-snp#.hvVKXwyrl2 I doubt it will really go anywhere, and they could never split the independence vote enough to allow Labour to take any Glasgow seats for example, but it does suggest the more fringier elements (Scottish Resistance for example) are running out of patience. this could be good news for the SNP if the fringe extremists leave. There is no way that we should be pushing for another referendum so soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/09/is-there-hope-for-labour-in-scotland?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Good article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/09/is-there-hope-for-labour-in-scotland?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Good article. If this article says anything more than "no" it's wrong ;-) EDIT - oh wait, the answer is to drop opposition to independence (which would to my mind fly in the face of what the Labour movement is supposed to be about) and basically transform into the SNP then? Given they share almost an entire policy platform at the moment that's what dropping opposition to independence amounts to. Can't out Tory the Tories so try and out-SNP the SNP? Maybe I'm doing him a disservice but that's what his conclusion appeared to be to me to amount to. Edited August 10, 2015 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Labour didn't lose in Scotland because it was pro-Union per se, it was because it took voters for granted and failed to clearly define a left of centre socialist-lite case for the union out on the streets that its core vote could sense hope in and buy into. Those are two very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 A new party has been set up to further the cause for independence because the SNP isn't pro-independence enough. http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/declaring-independence-from-the-snp?utm_term=.hmNYyJZVE#.toABbGj0X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/09/is-there-hope-for-labour-in-scotland?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Good article.labour. McKenna is an ardent supporter of Independence as a means to promote socialism. He wants Scottish Labour to adopt independence so that the people will vote for it. Not Scottish Labour supporting independence because voters want it. Its the SNP who are not listening to the voters support for the Union as clearly expressed last September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 McKenna is an ardent supporter of Independence as a means to promote socialism. He wants Scottish Labour to adopt independence so that the people will vote for it. Not Scottish Labour supporting independence because voters want it. Its the SNP who are not listening to the voters support for the Union as clearly expressed last September. I took his point more that Scottish Labour needs to articulate how it will change Scotland more than that. I think Labour's approach on independence is fine. Opposed to it, but if it happens it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/09/is-there-hope-for-labour-in-scotland?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Good article. Yes, it is. The author actually discussing Labour in a post independence Scotland. Scottish Labour's only hope, imo. The authors point regarding slavishly following neoliberalism also spot on, as is the critique of the snp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I took his point more that Scottish Labour needs to articulate how it will change Scotland more than that. I think Labour's approach on independence is fine. Opposed to it, but if it happens it happens. The constitutional question is above party politics much to dismay of the SNP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 What strange toilet paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 ?0.87bn in 7 years. Yes, that's quite an achievement. It's nearly 87% of the cash diverted from NHS in a single year. Smoke and mirrors but still lapped up by the gullible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 More SNP propaganda I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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