Riotwatch

[Floyd]

what a disgusting man that aamer anwar is. disgusting in that an officer of the courts should make pre-judicial criticisms of the police in that way, and thereby risk fanning the flames of racial tensions. another moron who conveniently sets aside the existence of a loaded handgun at the scene.

 

 

Correct, he is also prone to doing an Ali G and claiming that the colour of his skin is used against him. This despite a sheriff ruling after a car crash that his wife was involved in didn't constitute a racist incident and his conduct towards the other driver when he arrived on the scene was tantamount to blatant intimidation.

 

He is a ****** and will be using these riots as an excuse to promote his own left wing agenda.

 

Surprised he hasn't blamed Rupert Murdoch yet or mentioned Shagger Sheridan yet!

[cosanostra]

what a disgusting man that aamer anwar is. disgusting in that an officer of the courts should make pre-judicial criticisms of the police in that way, and thereby risk fanning the flames of racial tensions. another moron who conveniently sets aside the existence of a loaded handgun at the scene.

 

 

He's actually a really good guy if you ever meet him.

I don't always agree with his politics but he's done a lot of good and given a voice to those who had none.

He's not the self-righteous bore that he appears to be on TV at times, he's devoted his life and work to fairness and justice and he's helped a lot of people in the past.

[jamb0_1874]

Wonder if Cameron is saying that to Boris, who has now called for the police budget cuts to be put on hold? That'll put him in a fix as it is a gift to Labour.

 

There was an insurance expert on BBC1 this morning saying that they could be looking to sue the police for failing to protect the places from damage during a riot. You have to laugh really.

[cosanostra]

Correct, he is also prone to doing an Ali G and claiming that the colour of his skin is used against him. This despite a sheriff ruling after a car crash that his wife was involved in didn't constitute a racist incident and his conduct towards the other driver when he arrived on the scene was tantamount to blatant intimidation.

 

He is a ****** and will be using these riots as an excuse to promote his own left wing agenda.

 

Surprised he hasn't blamed Rupert Murdoch yet or mentioned Shagger Sheridan yet!

 

It has been used against him. He's been racially assaulted by Glasgow police and puts up with all manner of racial abuse from members of the public.

Especially after defending the kid from Alloa who boasted about reading Al-qaeda websites and was convicted. Some of the things that people in the street would shout at him were horrendous. The kid from Alloa was freed on appeal and the appeal court agreed that his conviction had been a miscarriage of justice. Time told on that one and he was right but he still gets hatred for that anyway.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What punishment works though Geoff? What has worked in the USA where they are as harsh as can be? Low density and very high police presence is the only way to bring any sort of order. Deprive people of benefits and you just drive up the crime rate to supplement lost income.

 

The genie is out of the bottle and folk were well and truly warned that this was what was being created.

Hard labour. Make them work and sweat for the first time in their lives, even if it is completely menial. Make them understand that fecklessness leads to consequences and you can't simply do what you want.

[Boris]

It has been used against him. He's been racially assaulted by Glasgow police and puts up with all manner of racial abuse from members of the public.

Especially after defending the kid from Alloa who boasted about reading Al-qaeda websites and was convicted. Some of the things that people in the street would shout at him were horrendous. The kid from Alloa was freed on appeal and the appeal court agreed that his conviction had been a miscarriage of justice. Time told on that one and he was right but he still gets hatred for that anyway.

 

He was at Glasgow Uni when I was there and he was a pain in the erse.

 

That said, what you have written sums up his work very well.

[Victorian]

What if after the IPCC enquiry Mr Anwar and the chap on Newsnight Scotland are right?

 

I don't mean to be arsey, and you are right that things should be commented on after the process has been gone through.

 

fair enough. i would certainly admit that my own pre-judicial assertation of what's likely to have happened would be wrong.

 

anwar's type of "execution" comment still does nothing for police morale or future recruitment for armed police units.

[Victorian]

He's actually a really good guy if you ever meet him.

I don't always agree with his politics but he's done a lot of good and given a voice to those who had none.

He's not the self-righteous bore that he appears to be on TV at times, he's devoted his life and work to fairness and justice and he's helped a lot of people in the past.

 

i dare say. the public persona can mask someone's positive aspects i suppose.

 

i just found it distasteful, given his position as an officer of the courts.

[cosanostra]

He was at Glasgow Uni when I was there and he was a pain in the erse.

 

That said, what you have written sums up his work very well.

 

He was at Glasgow with one of my best mates as well which is how I know him.

He's also into my sort of tunes so he went to some of the same club nights and parties. He still does actually. He's a good guy and he's always got time for everyone.

 

Edit - In saying that, I can see why people don't like him.

[cosanostra]

 

anwar's type of "execution" comment still does nothing for police morale or future recruitment for armed police units.

 

I actually agree with you there. He was totally wrong in his assessment.

The dead guy had a ****ing loaded illegal handgun in his possession when he was shot and as far as i'm concerned, that's the way it goes if you carry a firearm.

I also have much sympathy for the police guys who do that job. Seems to be the most dangerous and thankless job out there and comments like Aamer's are way wrong.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It's a shame that what started as a valid protest has turned into an opportunity for hundreds of neds to take the piss

 

 

[Des' Dad]

Hard labour. Make them work and sweat for the first time in their lives, even if it is completely menial. Make them understand that fecklessness leads to consequences and you can't simply do what you want.

Do you really think that would deter these people? They have been rioting, burning and looting whilst the police stand idly by and they are doing it because they can. Some of these people have no lives, no jobs, no hope and this, unfortunately gives them something to do, something to focus on for a short time in their miserable lives. And as for "you can't simply do what you want", isn't that exactly what the greedy bankers, the politicians, some journalists and members of the Metropolitan police have been doing? Filling their pockets because they can.

[Boris]

It's a shame that what started as a valid protest has turned into an opportunity for hundreds of neds to take the piss

 

 

 

This.

 

Shame because all that the masses will remember is the looting and thieving.

 

Some of the commentary on the BBC News 24 channel has been nothing short of abysmal. Real tabloid, emotive reporting rather than simply the facts. It will also be an excuse that the Govt will use in an attempt to curb social netwrok sites etc.

 

Instead, the underlying social issues that leads people to behave like this will not be addressed and as such the sores will merely fester until they explode again the next time.

 

It's a sort of "boom & bust" social theory!

[wibble]

Some good points raised in this comment piece ...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Instead, the underlying social issues that leads people to behave like this will not be addressed and as such the sores will merely fester until they explode again the next time.

 

That's the truth. There are masses of disaffected people in this country who've been neglected and ignored by the establishment. That doesn't explain the looting but it explains why this all started.

[Boris]

Some good points raised in this comment piece ...

 

http://www.guardian....logy-of-looting

 

 

Very good piece.

 

Unfortunately it will no doubt be dismissed by swathes of people.

 

Off at a tangent but I noticed a FB friend of mine had signed up to this

 

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

 

The title is

Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits.

 

Spot the deliberate mistake????

 

'kwits.....

 

[kingantti1874]

That's the truth. There are masses of disaffected people in this country who've been neglected and ignored by the establishment. That doesn't explain the looting but it explains why this all started.

 

I agree with the first bit, the second bit- it not always someone else's fault, life / society does not owe anybody anything other than opportunity which is there in abundance if you want it badly enough, you need to work for it-

 

look at the poles for example, unhappy with their lot they move heaven and earth to MAKE a better life for themselves and their families - , our lowlives think they deserve all the nice thing in the world without contributing anything to society in order to achieve it...

[djf]

society does not owe anybody anything other than opportunity which is there in abundance if you want it badly enough, you need to work for it-

 

 

 

What a load of rubbish. Whilst there are rare exceptions which i'm sure you will take great delight in quoting to me, to say that there are opportunities for youth who have grown in abject poverty with no family structure and no educational structure is naive in the extreme. To then say that all they need to do is work harder borders on insulting.

 

Social mobility in the country is embarrassingly bad and to see people who think being poor is not be able to afford Sky HD taking a moral high ground is depressing.

[deesidejambo]

That's the truth. There are masses of disaffected people in this country who've been neglected and ignored by the establishment. That doesn't explain the looting but it explains why this all started.

I'm not sure they have been neglected or ignored. Quite the opposite. They are provided with schooling. Free. Healthcare. Free. Assitance with Jobseeking. Free. And in many cases Social Security - they get money from the state and housing benefits. All of this is provided to them so I don't buy the "neglected and ignored" BS.

 

You want to talk "neglected and ignored" - try living in a country that does not provide the above.

[Boris]

our lowlives think they deserve all the nice thing in the world without contributing anything to society in order to achieve it...

 

But surely the question is why do they think like that? What has happened in our society for it to evolve in this way?

 

Obviously I'll blame consumer capitalism!

[Alfie Conn]

Got to laugh at all these people making excuses for all these *****.

 

Hand wringing Liberals.

[Boris]

I'm not sure they have been neglected or ignored. Quite the opposite. They are provided with schooling. Free. Healthcare. Free. Assitance with Jobseeking. Free. And in many cases Social Security - they get money from the state and housing benefits. All of this is provided to them so I don't buy the "neglected and ignored" BS.

 

You want to talk "neglected and ignored" - try living in a country that does not provide the above.

 

How many 14 year olds are on benefits?

 

And the free education is good, but look at the exclusion rates. Also, how are these inner city schools performing? I'm not blaming the teachers here, rather the way state education is organised.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Do you really think that would deter these people? They have been rioting, burning and looting whilst the police stand idly by and they are doing it because they can. Some of these people have no lives, no jobs, no hope and this, unfortunately gives them something to do, something to focus on for a short time in their miserable lives. And as for "you can't simply do what you want", isn't that exactly what the greedy bankers, the politicians, some journalists and members of the Metropolitan police have been doing? Filling their pockets because they can.

Yep, I think it would because these little shits need enforcement to teach them a lesson.

 

You do have a point though - the bank bailouts were legalised theft from individuals who had worked hard and saved. Adding that to the expenses debacle and the example shown was that crime pays!

[djf]

I'm not sure they have been neglected or ignored. Quite the opposite. They are provided with schooling. Free. Healthcare. Free. Assitance with Jobseeking. Free. And in many cases Social Security - they get money from the state and housing benefits. All of this is provided to them so I don't buy the "neglected and ignored" BS.

 

You want to talk "neglected and ignored" - try living in a country that does not provide the above.

 

 

It's all relative. Countries which don't provide the above tend to not have a society which worships footballers earning 6 figures a week and bankers who recieve multi million pound redundancy packages for presiding over objective failures. And if they do, we tend to get an "underclass" with no respect for the law or other individuals in society, see: the ghettos of the States.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

You want to talk "neglected and ignored" - try living in a country that does not provide the above.

 

I'll give you an example - someone was quoted on the radio as saying that eight out of 100 people in a specific area of London where rioting took place are employed. Eight out of 100. Peckham is hardly Sierra Leone but you can't expect that sort of situation to persist without it causing problems. To say that most of those people don't want to work (which I'm sure you will) is just lazy conjecture.

[djf]

Got to laugh at all these people making excuses for all these *****.

 

Hand wringing Liberals.

 

 

It must be so easy to live in black and white world and never have to engage one's brain.

[Boris]

Got to laugh at all these people making excuses for all these *****.

 

Hand wringing Liberals.

 

I'm not sure anyone is condoning their actions, merely trying to understand the causes of this violence and theft.

 

In doing so hopefully something will become apparent and moves will be made to create a society where rioting simply wouldn't be an option.

 

Hand wringing liberals? Are you Quentin Letts and where do I claim my prize?

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I'm not sure anyone is condoning their actions, merely trying to understand the causes of this violence and theft.

 

Bingo!

[Boris]

Bingo!

 

 

Alas, this is what the politicians should be looking for, but already they are trying to score political points off of each other.

 

Tossers.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Alas, this is what the politicians should be looking for, but already they are trying to score political points off of each other.

 

Tossers.

 

Its what politicians do, Boris.

 

"This happened on your watch"

 

"This is a product of 13 years in power for Labour"

[Nicholas Brody]

Alas, this is what the politicians should be looking for, but already they are trying to score political points off of each other.

 

Tossers.

 

That's politicians for ya.

[Victorian]

people do understand the causes though.

 

i understand what causes young people to become disaffected. that debate will happen in the coming months and years.

 

it's a different thing to understand what causes disaffected young people AND socially included people to rob and riot..... they're criminals.

[Floyd]

Especially after defending the kid from Alloa who boasted about reading Al-qaeda websites and was convicted. Some of the things that people in the street would shout at him were horrendous. The kid from Alloa was freed on appeal and the appeal court agreed that his conviction had been a miscarriage of justice. Time told on that one and he was right but he still gets hatred for that anyway.

 

The Mohammed Sidique Khan case was the only one where I agreed with him. The boy was clearly a fantasist and was no closer to running a terror cell than I am of running Hearts.

 

I don't agree or condone him being racially abused or assaulted, but his public persona and attitude does bring a lot of this sort of behaviour on or at least paints a target on him for every bampot with a Harry Ramsdens on their shoulder??

[Tommy Wiseau]

"Should we try to understand these events, Kelvin?"

 

NO

 

Sorry guys, wasting your time on this one. Kelvin kens best eh?

 

Incredibly lazy and ignorant worldview to dismiss anyone trying to analyse or understand the causes of this, especially with the "making excuses"/"condoning" lines we've heard. This is what Gove was doing last night and it is very similar to me to the "deficit denier" or the "anti-Irish Catholic" lines for people who try to analyse the cuts or the reaction to Neil Lennon respectively. Poor stuff.

[Boris]

people do understand the causes though.

 

i understand what causes young people to become disaffected. that debate will happen in the coming months and years.

 

it's a different thing to understand what causes disaffected young people AND socially included people to rob and riot..... they're criminals.

 

But there's the nub of the issue Jim.

 

There was a legitimate protest about a bloke getting zottzed by the Old Bill. This turned nasty and as a result we are where we are.

 

No one is denying the criminality involved. But because of this looting etc, the reasons behind the initial protest are somehow lost as both threads to this trouble are intertwined. People will remember all of this for the looting and robbing, understandably perhaps, but once the dust has settled and we try to find out why, I hope we don't lose site of the original incident.

 

Which is a shame.

[deesidejambo]

How many 14 year olds are on benefits?

 

And the free education is good, but look at the exclusion rates. Also, how are these inner city schools performing? I'm not blaming the teachers here, rather the way state education is organised.

 

No 14-year olds are on benefits. But the majority who have been arrested so far are in late teens or early 20s. I do accept the social divide between (roughly put) "haves" and "have nots" will always create community tension but my point is that the rioters are not necessarily the "have nots". I wish I could afford a Blackberry to plan some looting visits.

[cosanostra]

The Mohammed Sidique Khan case was the only one where I agreed with him. The boy was clearly a fantasist and was no closer to running a terror cell than I am of running Hearts.

 

I don't agree or condone him being racially abused or assaulted, but his public persona and attitude does bring a lot of this sort of behaviour on or at least paints a target on him for every bampot with a Harry Ramsdens on their shoulder??

 

I don't agree that he does bring a lot of hatred on himself (if that's what you meant) but you are right in that the stance he takes does make him an easy target for idiots.

[Boof]

Some people have mentioned that school children have little or no respect for teachers.

 

I offer you (from the BBC site)

 

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon

 

 

 

[cosanostra]

"Should we try to understand these events, Kelvin?"

 

NO

 

Sorry guys, wasting your time on this one. Kelvin kens best eh?

 

Incredibly lazy and ignorant worldview to dismiss anyone trying to analyse or understand the causes of this, especially with the "making excuses"/"condoning" lines we've heard. This is what Gove was doing last night and it is very similar to me to the "deficit denier" or the "anti-Irish Catholic" lines for people who try to analyse the cuts or the reaction to Neil Lennon respectively. Poor stuff.

 

Now that's a top post right there.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I'm not sure anyone is condoning their actions, merely trying to understand the causes of this violence and theft.

In doing so hopefully something will become apparent and moves will be made to create a society where rioting simply wouldn't be an option.

 

Hand wringing liberals? Are you Quentin Letts and where do I claim my prize?

 

 

That is simple though. Pure opportunism.

 

 

You weigh up risk and reward. You realise you can have stuff for free with impunity. You go for it.

 

 

Now, widen the issue to poverty, sink estates and moral breakdown and undoubtedly there are wider issues that drive crime and anti-social behaviour. The point here is that they are robbing and rioting because they can; nothing more, nothing less.

[Nicholas Brody]

Some people have mentioned that school children have little or no respect for teachers.

 

I offer you (from the BBC site)

 

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon

 

 

 

 

:stare:

[deesidejambo]

 

There was a legitimate protest about a bloke getting zottzed by the Old Bill.

 

You mean the guy who was carrying a gun? Was there a protest against individuals loose in the community with deadly weapons? You accept that he was innocently going about his legitimate business with a gun?

 

The time for "legitimate protest" is if it is found that he had no intent to use his weapon when confronted by Police. Then I agree he should not have been shot. However if it is the case that the Police officer decided there was danger to him or others then he was within his rights to act.

 

The point is you have decided already and you don't know the facts and until the facts are known you cannot determine whether any subsequent protest was "legitimate".

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The point here is that they are robbing and rioting because they can; nothing more, nothing less.

 

But what he and I are saying is that the robbing came after the initial rioting - rioting which stemmed from a very valid protest. You have to separate what's going on in Manchester etc from what happened in Tottenham. Tottenham wasn't about opportunistic looting

[Victorian]

But there's the nub of the issue Jim.

 

There was a legitimate protest about a bloke getting zottzed by the Old Bill. This turned nasty and as a result we are where we are.

 

No one is denying the criminality involved. But because of this looting etc, the reasons behind the initial protest are somehow lost as both threads to this trouble are intertwined. People will remember all of this for the looting and robbing, understandably perhaps, but once the dust has settled and we try to find out why, I hope we don't lose site of the original incident.

 

Which is a shame.

 

actually it remains to be seen whether or not the shooting protest was legitimate. there's a good chance that the shooting was necessary.

 

operation trident is meant to help these communities, but going off on half-cocked protests about a shooting - before the facts are known - kinda defeats the point.

 

actually those protest organisers have some of the blame themselves.

[milky_26]

just seen this posted on twitter http://i.imgur.com/JCQWV.gif

[Victorian]

Some people have mentioned that school children have little or no respect for teachers.

 

I offer you (from the BBC site)

 

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon

 

 

 

 

ahhhh. a disenfranchised and socially excluded 31 year old teacher perhaps?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

You mean the guy who was carrying a gun? Was there a protest against individuals loose in the community with deadly weapons? You accept that he was innocently going about his legitimate business with a gun?

 

The time for "legitimate protest" is if it is found that he had no intent to use his weapon when confronted by Police. Then I agree he should not have been shot. However if it is the case that the Police officer decided there was danger to him or others then he was within his rights to act.

 

The point is you have decided already and you don't know the facts and until the facts are known you cannot determine whether any subsequent protest was "legitimate".

 

For what it's worth, they were protesting over the lack of information about what had happened and the absence of confirmation that it was Duggan who had died. You're point about the firearm and the danger he might have posed is fair enough

[Boris]

That is simple though. Pure opportunism.

 

 

You weigh up risk and reward. You realise you can have stuff for free with impunity. You go for it.

 

 

Now, widen the issue to poverty, sink estates and moral breakdown and undoubtedly there are wider issues. The point here is that they are robbing and rioting because they can, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Yeah, but something must've caused that riot in the first place.

 

And also why sense of impunity?

 

I see what you are saying, and in one sense you're right, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I think those wider issues MUST be looked at and taken into account.

[deesidejambo]

But what he and I are saying is that the robbing came after the initial rioting - rioting which stemmed from a very valid protest. You have to separate what's going on in Manchester etc from what happened in Tottenham. Tottenham wasn't about opportunistic looting

 

What was valid about the protest? Do you know the details of the shooting? You, like Boris, jump to the conclusion that the Police were wrong, which just shows up your own prejudices.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Yeah, but something must've caused that riot in the first place.

 

I think we can agree the kernel of this was the protest and subsequent riot in Tottenham. The fact that people seemed to get away with looting appealed to others and it spread from there. Now, on the shooting, I'm not close enough to the rights and wrongs of whether the guy was shot in cold blood or not but if he was armed, my sympathy wanes.

 

 

And also why sense of impunity?

 

 

In the immediate, the fact that in Tottenham they appeared to get away with him. Culturally and socially, in the longer view, because there is no respect for societal values.

 

 

I see what you are saying, and in one sense you're right, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I think those wider issues MUST be looked at and taken into account.

Absolutely, but there is a danger of conflating the societal issues with pure opportunism and that in turn implies some sort of justification, of which there is none whatsoever.